They're Warriors, Not Victims

[Jay Cunningham]

the following by Tom Donnelly:

Here's the last part of today's speech by Obama:



Finally, I want to be very clear that my strategy for ending the war in Iraq does not end with military plans or diplomatic agendas * it endures through our commitment to uphold our sacred trust with every man and woman who has served in Iraq.

You make up a fraction of the American population, but in an age when so many people and institutions have acted irresponsibly, you did the opposite* you volunteered to bear the heaviest burden. And for you and for your families, the war does not end when you come home. It lives on in memories of your fellow soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines who gave their lives. It endures in the wound that is slow to heal, the disability that isn't going away, the dream that wakes you at night, or the stiffening in your spine when a car backfires down the street.

You and your families have done your duty * now a grateful nation must do ours. That is why I am increasing the number of soldiers and Marines, so that we lessen the burden on those who are serving. And that is why I have committed to expanding our system of veterans health care to serve more patients, and to provide better care in more places. We will continue building new wounded warrior facilities across America, and invest in new ways of identifying and treating the signature wounds of this war: Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and Traumatic Brain Injury, as well as other combat injuries.

We also know that service does not end with the person wearing the uniform. In her visits with military families across the country, my wife Michelle has learned firsthand about the unique burden that your families endure every day. I want you to know this: military families are a top priority for Michelle and me, and they will be a top priority for my administration.

We'll raise military pay, and continue providing quality child-care, job-training for spouses, and expanded counseling and outreach to families that have known the separation and stress of war. We will also heed the lesson of history * that those who fight in battle can form the backbone of our middle class * by implementing a 21st century GI Bill to help our veterans live their dreams.


This is a very subtle form of the soldier-as-victim trope that is fast becoming an Iraq legacy. For soldiers throughout history--those who have endured physical and emotional sufferings of an essential similar quality, if less clinically expressed--the trials of war were at least partially ameliorated by the salve of personal honor and, if the battle went well, the celebration of a victory. The troops who have served and serve still in Iraq should be singled out not just for the burdens of the fight but because they emerge from it, as Bing West's book puts it, as the "strongest tribe."

No doubt there is a genuine tenderness in the president's feelings for soldiers. But there is little of the praise of warriors in his words. Gratitude or sympathy for suffering is quite different from honoring a sacrifice. I am sure Obama will honor his pledge to continue to ensure that people in uniform "form the backbone of our middle class." But the pay, the benefits, the programs alone are never enough and never, ultimately, what make the call to service worth answering.

It is never easy for a civilian to fully empathize with a soldier's experience, particularly with that of long-service professionals asked to serve constant watch on distant, dusty frontiers, in wars that ebb and flow but do not end. The only wisdom can come from acknowledging this almost unbridgeable gap and trying to mentally leap across it. Soldiers more easily see that we civilians are not like them; we civilians are mistakenly prone to think that soldiers are like us.

For the president, the civilian who stands at the beginning of the chain of command--who, by his constitutional authority as commander-in-chief really resides on the far side of the gap--making the leap is an obligation, not an option. He, above all, should speak to his troops in the language of duty, honor, and country which is their native tongue but seems to be such a foreign dialect to a detached, cool, post-modern politician. President Obama must not simply bind up the soldier's wounds or care for his widow, but lead him.

[Abraxas]

That is well written. I cannot tell you how many times I have had to explain to people not to feel bad for my deployments, I volunteered. They always seem confused when I tell them that I volunteered to go on more deployments then I was required to. Half because of my friends that were deploying, and half because that was what I wanted to do when I joined the Marine Corp. I had a squad leader say something that sounds somewhat ridiculous out of context but was not given the situation that he said it in, " you have all chosen the profession of warrior. To be a professional warrior, so stop bitching and act like it!!!" There is of course more but I thought that part had the most to do with the title of the thread.

[d90king]

He also failed to mention the word "victory" a single time. Nor did he give the administration that was responsible for creating a democracy a single word of gratitude.

[Littlelebowski]

Dang, katarzan. Well written. Did the isotopes mutate your brain into something more powerful :D

[Rider79]

Dang, katarzan. Well written. Did the isotopes mutate your brain into something more powerful :D

I don't think Katar wrote that, I think he was quoting it.

As for what the original writer said about the soldier as victim idea, I see that often in my current line of work. Almost every time I deal with a person who is in the military, or recently out of the military, who's being a drunken asshole, I'm told some variation of "I just got back from Iraq/I served in Iraq". To which my answer is, "Thank you for your service to your country, but it still does not give you the right to act a fool." I've talked to my father, who is a Vietnam-era vet, about this, and he doesn't really remember hearing anything like this before. I've heard the Iraq card pulled to get everything from free drinks to free cover charge, and to be honest, it just gets kind of old. I'm all for honoring/doing things for veterans, but when you're taking advantage of it, that's another thing. I believe you knew what you were getting into when you signed up, don't use it as a sob story now. Maybe this makes me sound like a prick, but if any vets have any ideas on how to deal with these kinds of situations, feel free to share.

[Gutshot John]

Unfortunately Obama and the Democrats have a political agenda in portraying our soldiers as "victims", it allows them to rescue them from their victimhood, since they're obviously too traumatized to even know they're victims.

Simultaneously Democrats can bash Bush and present themselves as the heros and stealing the honor from those that actually did sacrifice.

It is the most cynical form of political dishonesty.

[Abraxas]

As for what the original writer said about the soldier as victim idea, I see that often in my current line of work. Almost every time I deal with a person who is in the military, or recently out of the military, who's being a drunken asshole, I'm told some variation of "I just got back from Iraq/I served in Iraq". To which my answer is, "Thank you for your service to your country, but it still does not give you the right to act a fool." I've talked to my father, who is a Vietnam-era vet, about this, and he doesn't really remember hearing anything like this before. I've heard the Iraq card pulled to get everything from free drinks to free cover charge, and to be honest, it just gets kind of old. I'm all for honoring/doing things for veterans, but when you're taking advantage of it, that's another thing. I believe you knew what you were getting into when you signed up, don't use it as a sob story now. Maybe this makes me sound like a prick, but if any vets have any ideas on how to deal with these kinds of situations, feel free to share.

These are just people using any excuse to get out of trouble. As far as the drinks well, they just want to sponge. When I got back I had some friends buy me some drinks, which was ok because by the end of the night I was buying them drinks. But I have seen many from all branches try to use the Iraq angle to drink for free all night. For some reason it seemed like the POG's were a little worse to do that kind of stuff. Or maybe that is just because there are more of them

[Rider79]

Okay, feel free to call me stupid, but I'm not a vet... what's a POG?

Yeah, we see this shit constantly. I had 2 females who would not leave the VIP table of an NFL player, because they "served in Iraq and deserved to sit there." The player's girlfriend kinda felt bad for them and let them stay for a bit, til she figured out that they were pretty much just mooching for drinks. Generally when I have these situations, if I can, I'll call one of my employees over who served in Iraq or Afghanistan to basically tell them to go **** themselves.

[Gutshot John]

Okay, feel free to call me stupid, but I'm not a vet... what's a POG?

"Person Other than Grunt" pronounced "pogue" by Marines, also known in the Army as a REMF.

[Rider79]

"Person Other than Grunt" pronounced "pogue" also known in the Army as a REMF.

Ah, like the support people? That would have made sense with these 2 girls, because they definitely did not look combat-ready if you know what I mean. Okay, now what does REMF mean? Rear Echelon Mother ****er?

[Gutshot John]

I couldn't swear to it in this day and age, but by definition a female MUST be a POG.

That's exactly what REMF means.

[Rider79]

That's exactly what REMF means.

I feel smart. Anyway, aren't there women manning checkpoints and stuff like that over there now? There's women getting killed in Iraq, they must be somewhere near the fighting.

[RogerinTPA]

Well said Katar. Most who have volunteered for military service, understand the professionalism of there chosen career. Despite the high stress of continuous tours, they still continue to serve, reup and not quit. Someone said during times of crisis "My God, where do we get such brave men and women". It is a Warrior life that most liberals will never understand. God bless each and every one of them.

[Gutshot John]

I feel smart. Anyway, aren't there women manning checkpoints and stuff like that over there now? There's women getting killed in Iraq, they must be somewhere near the fighting.

Certainly, but a grunt is by definition infantry.

If you're a tanker, you're not a grunt, but even still when it's used, it's invariably for support units...those that don't fight for a living even if they get into an occasional scrape.

Like I said in this day and age the line blurs a bit, but I'm pretty sure women aren't allowed into infantry units.

[Rider79]

Most who have volunteered for military service, understand the professionalism of there chosen career.

And those are the ones I'm proud of, and would bend over backwards for, not the kind I mentioned earlier.

[Rider79]

Certainly, but a grunt is by definition infantry.


Yeah, guess I didn't think of that, but like I said, I'm not a vet, so I don't know shit.

[RogerinTPA]

That's exactly what REMF means.

We used to use another acronym as well: NUGS (Non-essential, Uninformed Gofers)

[Gutshot John]

Yeah, guess I didn't think of that, but like I said, I'm not a vet, so I don't know shit.

Sorry if that sounded like a dig on you or civilians. It really wasn't, you asked and I was just informing you.

The thing about people like the Democrats is summed up best by Col. Jessup in a Few Good Men (though I don't think Reiner intended it to be taken to be complimentary).


“Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have more responsibility here than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago’s death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you dont talk about at parties, you don’t want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don’t give a damn what you think you are entitled to!”

[Rider79]

Sorry if that sounded like a dig on you or civilians. It really wasn't, you asked and I was just informing you.


I didn't take it that way at all. I was a history major in college, and I've studied all kinds of military history, so I kinda felt like a dumbass for not knowing something that was pretty much common sense. I wish I would have gone into the military, but my father pushed college on me since he never went, plus I had football scholarships, so I went that route instead. Then a little later, when I tried to sign up, I found out that my history of asthma disqualified me. Kinda strange, the asthma never bothered me when I was playing 3 sports in high school, but rules are rules, I guess. So I do admire you guys who have served, but I don't admire the guys who act like douchebags about it.

[Gutshot John]

I didn't take it that way at all. I was a history major in college, and I've studied all kinds of military history, so I kinda felt like a dumbass for not knowing something that was pretty much common sense.

I think once you know it's obvious, but if you're not intimately familiar with the culture there's no reason that it would be "common". That said you've made the effort to try and understand, something that Obama/Pelosi clearly never has bothered to do.


I wish I would have gone into the military, but my father pushed college on me since he never went, plus I had football scholarships, so I went that route instead. Then a little later, when I tried to sign up, I found out that my history of asthma disqualified me. Kinda strange, the asthma never bothered me when I was playing 3 sports in high school, but rules are rules, I guess. So I do admire you guys who have served, but I don't admire the guys who act like douchebags about it.

My dad was the exact opposite, after two years of lackluster performance in a top school, my dad informed me that I should probably consider the military...in fact it wasn't so much a "probably" as a "definite". He had tried to join every branch and was rejected for asthma that hadn't bothered him since he was a kid. It always bothered him deeply that he was rejected. As for me, when I went back to school, I was able to take my longtime interest in history into an academic career, but only because the Navy gave me the discipline to perform.

I love how democrats try and put every military guy on a pedestal and call them all "heros" because they have NO clue what a real "hero" actually is. As if that gives them the right to trash Bush and minimize the victory they have sacrificed so much for. "Oh you guys are heros all right...but your leaders are ****ing Nazis" :rolleyes: So basically you're a hero but you did the bidding of nazis. WTFO? That democrats have no understanding of this discrepancy demonstrates how cynical their words and actions are.

The military should be respected, but it shouldn't be worshipped either. There are plenty of douchebags in the military and just because you serve doesn't make you a hero. Nor would a real grunt try and profit from the deaths of his brothers by scamming free drinks.

[Jay Cunningham]

I did not write this!!!

A man named Tom Donnelly wrote this!!!

[Abraxas]

He had tried to join every branch and was rejected for asthma that hadn't bothered him since he was a kid. It always bothered him deeply that he was rejected.

I have heard stories like this a lot since I joined, and it has always made me smile. Now I am not intending to insult anyone, but if I had had asthma as a child and not had it act up for years I would not have told them about it. But I guess that is dishonest on a certain level, and I did not have to worry about it but I wanted in so bad that I would have omitted that piece of information.

[Gutshot John]

I have heard stories like this a lot since I joined, and it has always made me smile. Now I am not intending to insult anyone, but if I had had asthma as a child and not had it act up for years I would not have told them about it. But I guess that is dishonest on a certain level, and I did not have to worry about it but I wanted in so bad that I would have omitted that piece of information.

You misunderstand, he genuinely wanted in to the Coast Guard/Navy. He loved the sea and applied for a ROTC scholarship. After that he tried to enlist and was in turn rejected by the Marines, Air Force and Army. He tried every service.

This was a different time, even before Vietnam, by the time they would have opened it up he was past 30 and had kids already, but that's really a different story.

My father would have respected the men that served their country and it bothered him deeply to see them used as political pawns.

[HK45]

Creating a democracy? Please. They did create the worst foreign policy and military disaster in U.S. history. Through a spectacular combination of arrogance, ignorance, greed cooked up by a bunch of draft dodging chickenhawks.

As to all the bravado tough guy patriot bullshit that doesn't last long.


He also failed to mention the word "victory" a single time. Nor did he give the administration that was responsible for creating a democracy a single word of gratitude.

[Jay Cunningham]

Creating a democracy? Please. They did create the worst foreign policy and military disaster in U.S. history. Through a spectacular combination of arrogance, ignorance, greed cooked up by a bunch of draft dodging chickenhawks.

As to all the bravado tough guy patriot bullshit that doesn't last long.

Your opinions are welcome but tread carefully and express clearly what you mean before it gets incorrectly interpreted.

[Iraqgunz]

I truly feel like a victim and if President Obama could arrange for a small deposit into my bank account let's say like 1,000,000 dollars I would greatly appreciate it. I will even help to stimulate the economy. Thank you.

[Gutshot John]

Creating a democracy? Please. They did create the worst foreign policy and military disaster in U.S. history. Through a spectacular combination of arrogance, ignorance, greed cooked up by a bunch of draft dodging chickenhawks.

Worst foreign policy and military disaster in U.S. history? By what standard are you making that claim? Vietnam? Korea? I'd even argue that WWII could be considered the worst foreign policy and military disaster in U.S. history.

Similarly creating the only representative government in the Arab world is something to scoff at?

I'm no fan of how the war has been fought but let's keep our criticism within the realm of reality.

[Dave L.]

I truly feel like a victim and if President Obama could arrange for a small deposit into my bank account let's say like 1,000,000 dollars I would greatly appreciate it. I will even help to stimulate the economy. Thank you.

Dude, ask for no less than a Billion, otherwise they wont take you seriously.

[Dave L.]

Creating a democracy? Please. They did create the worst foreign policy and military disaster in U.S. history. Through a spectacular combination of arrogance, ignorance, greed cooked up by a bunch of draft dodging chickenhawks.

As to all the bravado tough guy patriot bullshit that doesn't last long.

I'm sorry, I miss understood you. S/F

[HK45]

My first point could not be clearer.

My second point is when the rounds come downrange and people start killing and dying all that other artificial bullshit goes out the window. I reenlisted many times because I didn't want to do anything else. Don't know anyone who stayed in the Marine Corps out of patriotic fervor. I only got out because of a medical discharge due to combat injuries.

All this talk about liberals this, and Democrats that, like everyone is in a neat little box is foolish. The military is made up of all kinds of people. Most people in general have beliefs that are liberal, some that are conservative, some in between.

When I see wanna be tough guy comments I tend to think either that person has never been in the military or if they are, they are an office pogue, usually in some branch that sees very little ground combat.

[HK45]

You are out of touch with the reality of the Iraqi government, how they got there, and who they represent.


Worst foreign policy and military disaster in U.S. history? By what standard are you making that claim? Vietnam? Korea? I'd even argue that WWII could be considered the worst foreign policy and military disaster in U.S. history.

Similarly creating the only representative government in the Arab world is something to scoff at?

I'm no fan of how the war has been fought but let's keep our criticism within the realm of reality.

[Gutshot John]

My second point is when the rounds come downrange and people start killing and dying all that other artificial bullshit goes out the window.

Some original material would be nice. It seems like you're falling into that "tough guy" image you so indelicately refute.

If you served in the military, than by all means you've got every right to speak your peace and critique whatever you'd like, but we're not talking about people like you. We're talking about assholes who want to simultaneously drape themselves in the flag while victimizing the choices made by a lot of guys. Those are as much chickenhawks as anyone else in government.

Whether you think of mom, flag or apple pie when bullets are whizzing by your head is irrelevant. You signed your name on the paper because you wished to serve something larger than yourself.

Whatever your motivations might be, don't denigrate the choices of others or claim to speak for all of them.

Lastly your history is deeply flawed.

[Gutshot John]

You are out of touch with the reality of the Iraqi government, how they got there, and who they represent.

You cannot see the forest for the trees.

[Littlelebowski]

So what is the total cost in today's dollars for Vietnam versus Iraq? At least we're leaving a democracy in Iraq as opposed to Vietnam and Kuwait.

What was your MOS, HK45?

[d90king]

Creating a democracy? Please. They did create the worst foreign policy and military disaster in U.S. history. Through a spectacular combination of arrogance, ignorance, greed cooked up by a bunch of draft dodging chickenhawks.

As to all the bravado tough guy patriot bullshit that doesn't last long.



Do you understand the definition of a Democracy?


I wont comment on the rest of your BS.......

[Littlelebowski]

Don't know anyone who stayed in the Marine Corps out of patriotic fervor.

I know plenty in my old units, 3/1 and 1st LAR. Do you want names or what? Do you really think your vote for Obama is going to help Iraq, HK45?

[BrentPete]

I cannot tell you how many times I have had to explain to people not to feel bad for my deployments, I volunteered.

I was just asking my grandmother tonight about her father who was at Pearl Harbor. When his ship was struck with a bomb he was in his boxers and nothing else. As he climbed over the edge of the listing boat his legs were cut up on the barnacles clinging to the bottom of the hull. He then swam to shore, still with no clothes or any of his personal belongings he had on the ship. She (my grandmother) has a receipt from her father's purchase of a new uniform. He had to purchase his own new uniform to clothe himself. All of his money was lost with the ship so the receipt is an I-owe-you saying he will pay the Navy back for the new uniform.
My point is they ARE warriors, not victims. And my sincere thanks to them. Both modern and former warriors.

[Submariner]

The military should be respected, but it shouldn't be worshipped either... [J]ust because you serve doesn't make you a hero.

Sig line material.

[Failure2Stop]

Mr. President-

Sir, for the moment, while we are actively engaged with well armed, supplied, and motivated enemies, please don't overly concern yourself or your administration with ensuring my success when I leave the armed forces. I would rather that you heavily invest in supplying ground troops with the finest weapons, ammunition, and support possible while I am engaged in the fight, and for the years that we remain in this fight. Education and hugs when I rotate home will not help me bring back more warriors or kill more enemies. Help me do my job. Help me win this war for you.

Training is the finest form of welfare, with it I bring more men home to the things they enjoy.

[CMFG]

I've got three notes to add to this thread, as plainly and briefly as I can:

1.) The original article by Mr. Donnelly was extremely well written; his point was also completely valid.

2.) Most veterans would never try to cash in on their service or play to the sympathy of others. As a general rule, pleas for sympathy or special favors are inversely proportional to the true service rendered or sacrifices made.

3.) Things have definitely changed with regards to women in combat in this war, as I suspect the history books will tell years from now. While women still aren't allowed to serve in combat arms MOS's, women in the MPs and other combat support jobs regularly go into harm's way.

One example is my MOS. I'm Army EOD (bomb disposal) and women serve in our field. In 2003, a good (female) friend of mine was killed disarming an IED in Iraq. And during my last tour in Iraq in 2006, another female EOD tech was killed and a third lost both her arms above the elbows doing the same. I also saw a female medic in a patrol I was with take a face full of grenade shrapnel.

I'm not arguing for or against women in combat. Just pointing out the current reality.

ETA: Hey Katar, can you post a link to the original article? I'd like to reference some of Donnelly's quotes in it for a paper I'm writing. Thanks.

[Jay Cunningham]

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/02/theyre_warriors_not_victims.asp

[CMFG]

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/02/theyre_warriors_not_victims.asp

Thanks, brother.