Professor Called Police After Student Presentation [Archive]

Buckaroo

03-01-09, 22:16

http://therecorderonline.net/2009/02/24/professor-called-police-after-student-presentation/?wtf

For CCSU student John Wahlberg, a class presentation on campus violence turned into a confrontation with the campus police due to a complaint by the professor.

On October 3, 2008, Wahlberg and two other classmates prepared to give an oral presentation for a Communication 140 class that was required to discuss a “relevant issue in the media”. Wahlberg and his group chose to discuss school violence due to recent events such as the Virginia Tech shootings that occurred in 2007.

Shortly after his professor, Paula Anderson, filed a complaint with the CCSU Police against her student. During the presentation Wahlberg made the point that if students were permitted to conceal carry guns on campus, the violence could have been stopped earlier in many of these cases. He also touched on the controversial idea of free gun zones on college campuses.

That night at work, Wahlberg received a message stating that the campus police “requested his presence”. Upon entering the police station, the officers began to list off firearms that were registered under his name, and questioned him about where he kept them.

They told Wahlberg that they had received a complaint from his professor that his presentation was making students feel “scared and uncomfortable”.

“I was a bit nervous when I walked into the police station,” Wahlberg said, “but I felt a general sense of disbelief once the officer actually began to list the firearms registered in my name. I was never worried however, because as a law-abiding gun owner, I have a thorough understanding of state gun laws as well as unwavering safety practices.”

Professor Anderson refused to comment directly on the situation and deferred further comment.

“It is also my responsibility as a teacher to protect the well being of our students, and the campus community at all times,” she wrote in a statement submitted to The Recorder. “As such, when deemed necessary because of any perceived risks, I seek guidance and consultation from the Chair of my Department, the Dean and any relevant University officials.”

Wahlberg believes that her complaint was filed without good reason.

“I don’t think that Professor Anderson was justified in calling the CCSU police over a clearly nonthreatening matter. Although the topic of discussion may have made a few individuals uncomfortable, there was no need to label me as a threat,” Wahlberg said in response. “The actions of Professor Anderson made me so uncomfortable, that I didn’t attend several classes. The only appropriate action taken by the Professor was to excuse my absences.”

The university police were unavailable for comment.

“If you can’t talk about the Second Amendment, what happened to the First Amendment?” asked Sara Adler, president of the Riflery and Marksmanship club on campus. “After all, a university campus is a place for the free and open exchange of ideas.”

-Shauna Simeone, Asst. Opinion Editor

Do CT residents have to register their arms? This is so wildly stupid!

Buckaroo

AirmanAtwood

03-01-09, 23:27

I'm kind of curious as to what was the spoken word in the presentation. They might have said something that could have caused worry * although I doubt it*.

FromMyColdDeadHand

03-01-09, 23:32

There never seems to be a written complaint when this stuff happens.

I would like to know what exactly he said, or was it just the word 'gun'.

Unfortunately, the only 'preventative policing' going on is the police trying to prevent from being second guessed.

So what grade does the kid get?

Is CT a registration state? What's the threshold for accessing those records?

I guess he's lucky, he could have had a SWAT team cap his ass that night with a no-knock warrant.

mmike87

03-02-09, 09:35

Kudos to the student for tackling a controversial matter in a public forum on unfriendly ground. We need more people to do that.

Gutshot John

03-02-09, 09:46

I'd find a smart lawyer and sue that school professor silly.

Filing false police reports, intimidation? Harassment?

He did an assigned piece of work and violated no school policies in his performance.

subzero

03-02-09, 11:52

Is CT a registration state? What's the threshold for accessing those records?

From what I can tell, the answer is no with a but.

No registration for long guns or handguns. You need a purchase permit to buy a handgun.

If there's no registration, how did a campus cop have a list of guns this guy had? The easiest answer would be he had to notify campus police he was a gun owner and check his stuff in somewhere since guns (probably) aren't allowed on campus.

g5m

03-02-09, 12:15

I imagine the knowledge that most all posters on this site have would terrify a lot of University professors.

John_Wayne777

03-02-09, 12:19

I'd find a smart lawyer and sue that school professor silly.

There's nothing to sue for. The school took no official action, and the police didn't take any action against the guy. He showed up voluntarily at the police station...a bad move. Call first and ask what they want. Don't just walk into the station.

Filing false police reports,

If the professor "felt" threatened (regardless of how silly that feeling may have been) she's not going to be prosecuted for filing a false police report.

intimidation? Harassment?

What's presented here wouldn't qualify as either. It's hardly encouraging, but not something that is likely to be actionable especially in (and if he does try legal action you can bet your sweet bippy he will hear this phrase a lot) a post VT world.

He did an assigned piece of work and violated no school policies in his performance.

The best course of action here is to complain to the dean of the department. Even at that, it is unlikely anyone in the college administration will care.

John_Wayne777

03-02-09, 12:20

From what I can tell, the answer is no with a but.

No registration for long guns or handguns. You need a purchase permit to buy a handgun.

If there's no registration, how did a campus cop have a list of guns this guy had? The easiest answer would be he had to notify campus police he was a gun owner and check his stuff in somewhere since guns (probably) aren't allowed on campus.

...or they called up the BATFE and asked for their records on him.

Palmguy

03-02-09, 13:04

...or they called up the BATFE and asked for their records on him.

I thought the Feds weren't supposed to have that kind of information?

John_Wayne777

03-02-09, 13:09

I thought the Feds weren't supposed to have that kind of information?

The BATFE can inspect 4473's anytime they wish. If the guy bought his guns from a local store it would be a piece of cake for the BATFE to go to the store and grab the forms and find out what he's got.

...and they have a bad habit of doing stuff a hell of a lot more disconcerting than that.

Gutshot John

03-02-09, 14:18

If the professor "felt" threatened (regardless of how silly that feeling may have been) she's not going to be prosecuted for filing a false police report.

If the professor "felt" threatened absent any kind of intimidating language or similar statement, and was indeed only "felt" this way because she disagreed with a class assignment...and then filed a report absent any reasonable belief that the student intended harm?

I'd say that's grounds for a pretty fat settlement on the university's part.

kaiservontexas

03-02-09, 14:33

I would litigate just to scare the university. Professor pushes student around, student should push back. Universities loath lawyers showing up on behalf a student.

John_Wayne777

03-02-09, 15:20

If the professor "felt" threatened absent any kind of intimidating language or similar statement, and was indeed only "felt" this way because she disagreed with a class assignment...and then filed a report absent any reasonable belief that the student intended harm?

I'd say that's grounds for a pretty fat settlement on the university's part.

Nope....especially since no harm has come from it. Heed again my "post VT world" statement. The argument to any court will be that awarding damages in this case would have a chilling effect on the willingness of university professors to report the next Cho.

...and if that don't work, the university lawyers will have about 400 other arguments, all of which reference VT.

John_Wayne777

03-02-09, 15:23

I would litigate just to scare the university. Professor pushes student around, student should push back. Universities loath lawyers showing up on behalf a student.

Universities employ lawyers of their own, and they stay fairly busy. A lowly little student with no case isn't going to scare the university. Even if they have a case in a matter like this the university will parade the VT victims in front of the court and more than likely the court will say that an abundance of caution on the part of university officials is warranted in the "post VT world."

FromMyColdDeadHand

03-02-09, 15:24

If the professor "felt" threatened absent any kind of intimidating language or similar statement, and was indeed only "felt" this way because she disagreed with a class assignment...and then filed a report absent any reasonable belief that the student intended harm?

I'd say that's grounds for a pretty fat settlement on the university's part.

Just my guess, but the proff at some point "scooter libby'd" and said something that wasn't true.

I wish there was a recording of the students presentation, or even his slides. If guns are banned on campus and he said something like 'I'd carry anyway since I have a right to defend myself', the proff might have a point, even if just about everyone here would agree with the kid.

How come it is wrong and a Civil Rights Investigation to be pulled over when driving-while-black, but OK to be summoned to the police headquarters when you are talking-about-black-guns?

Dollars to donuts some other kid took the side of Hamas and the Palestinians, and no one said a word.

Gutshot John

03-02-09, 15:30

Nope....especially since no harm has come from it. Heed again my "post VT world" statement. The argument to any court will be that awarding damages in this case would have a chilling effect on the willingness of university professors to report the next Cho.

...and if that don't work, the university lawyers will have about 400 other arguments, all of which reference VT.

I see your point, but the professor shouldn't have assigned it unless she intended to promote "controversial" dialogue. The harm that may result was in the student's perception of intimidation in the classroom. A place that most universities consider sacrosanct.

It seems a bit of a stretch to hold a classroom forum on guns in schools then file a complaint when the forum has a dissenting voice. In doing so isn't she creating something of a threatening atmosphere?

All in all I'm sure lawyers could scurry around it for a long time racking up huge legal fees, but I don't think one should be subject to police questioning when one didn't even violate school policy, let alone the law.

No one wants teacher's afraid to come forward about another Cho, but the complaint this woman filed, without clear evidence, will now call into question the judgment if she later gets an actual threat.

Gutshot John

03-02-09, 15:34

Just my guess, but the proff at some point "scooter libby'd" and said something that wasn't true.

Oh wow...well then...that has ALL KINDS of legal implications.

I just assumed she was stupid, but dishonesty on that scale would be huge grounds for lawsuit.

John_Wayne777

03-02-09, 17:47

I see your point, but the professor shouldn't have assigned it unless she intended to promote "controversial" dialogue. The harm that may result was in the student's perception of intimidation in the classroom. A place that most universities consider sacrosanct.

No, universities only consider academic freedom sacrosanct when the ideas expressed in the classroom align with their preferences. Most PHD's I interact with are professionals who encourage debate and the exploration of ideas even if they disagree with them. My Con Law professor was a flaming lib, and yet he gave me a perfect score on my paper that lavished praise on the Rehnquist court's belief that the 10th amendment to the Constitution actually mattered.

Other professors are flaming idiots. They can get away with being flaming idiots because the desire to actually exercise discipline in some departments (or in the overall administration) of some universities just isn't there.

It seems a bit of a stretch to hold a classroom forum on guns in schools then file a complaint when the forum has a dissenting voice. In doing so isn't she creating something of a threatening atmosphere?

Of course it's a stretch...but the usual rules of logic are suspended in the university environment.

All in all I'm sure lawyers could scurry around it for a long time racking up huge legal fees, but I don't think one should be subject to police questioning when one didn't even violate school policy, let alone the law.

He didn't have to respond to the police. He could have politely asserted his rights rather than talking to them. As such, he has no real legal recourse available to him.

Should he have gotten the Cho treatment from the police? Absolutely not, but that's another one of those common sense ideas that won't have any traction in the university administration or in the courts.

No one wants teacher's afraid to come forward about another Cho, but the complaint this woman filed, without clear evidence, will now call into question the judgment if she later gets an actual threat.

She's clearly a hysterical ninny. That's not going to matter one iota. It's not the way it should be...it's just the way it is.

John_Wayne777

03-02-09, 17:48

Just my guess, but the proff at some point "scooter libby'd" and said something that wasn't true.

Again, you'd have to prove it and you'd have to overcome the "post VT world" hurdle where university officials are encouraged to narc on anyone who even looks like they might be a problem.

kaiservontexas

03-02-09, 18:29

Universities employ lawyers of their own, and they stay fairly busy. A lowly little student with no case isn't going to scare the university. Even if they have a case in a matter like this the university will parade the VT victims in front of the court and more than likely the court will say that an abundance of caution on the part of university officials is warranted in the "post VT world."

Nope, they loath it and dread it just like all the schools do because it saps them of time and money. Schools also typically do not win a case against it. It can also bring about bad publicity. They rather avoid then engage which is why they like to settle out real fast.

FromMyColdDeadHand

03-02-09, 19:23

Again, you'd have to prove it and you'd have to overcome the "post VT world" hurdle where university officials are encouraged to narc on anyone who even looks like they might be a problem.

There is a disconnect somewhere. Either the kid advocated violence and/or breaking the law, or he didn't. The Prof either accurately relayed what the student said or she didn't. The cops either responded correctly or they didn't.

If he did advocate law breaking (and I am being overly harsh on him), he would be in trouble.

If the student didn't, and the teacher accurately related the circumstances, the cops handled it wrong. Now if the cops over reacted and went into databases they weren't supposed to be in, tsk, tsk. I thought domestic spying was treason, or at least it was pre Jan. 09.

If the cops acted on incorrect information, the prof is in trouble. All you have to do is take her written statement (don't tell me they did this all on she-said/he-threatened) and interview people in the class on what was said.

If there is no state registration, someone went thru a lot of trouble find out what guns he had and call him in. Can it be true that just talking about guns is enough reason to involve the federal authorities?

Damages, I don't know. But if his story is square either the prof or the cops should be reprimanded. I'd sue just to make sure I get out of the class with an A.

Left Sig

03-02-09, 19:23

Again, you'd have to prove it and you'd have to overcome the "post VT world" hurdle where university officials are encouraged to narc on anyone who even looks like they might be a problem.

I agree to some extent.

But Cho was known by many around him to be mentally unstable and likely to commit violence. He was involuntarily committed because he was deemed a potential danger to himself or others, but let go after a few days of observation. This generally disqualified him from owning firearms, but the records of the committal were not reported to NICS by the state of Virginia because of deficiencies in their reporting structure.

Cho did NOT simply make a speech about gun rights and how lawful licensed carry could mitigate the damage done by mentally disturbed shooters.

Extrapolating one to the other isn't apples to apples or even apples to oranges. It's apples to hand grenades!

The teacher was the typical far left university type who believes that an interest in firearms is the sign of a person who is prone to commit violence.

Then again, if he showed up talking and acting like a gunshop commando, she might have had a point...

Left Sig

03-02-09, 19:33

Here's a story about how universities respond to some of our finest:

My cousin-in-law is a former Marine who served in Korea in the early 90's. He was rated expert in firearms, explosives, hand-to-hand combat, and other combat skills. When he got out, he was told he had to report his whereabouts and military qualifications to local law enforcement, which he did.

Fast forward about 10 years and he's gone back to school at a major state university. At some point he is called into an administration office and questioned about his military experience. When the lady in the office saw that he was an expert in all kinds of combat skills, she became visibly nervous like she didn't want to be in the room with him, and he was admonished for not informing the school of his service record upon initial admission.

This guy is on the level, and I trust what he told me actually happened. He is absolutely not the type to exaggerate what he did in the service. He did his time and got out.

I'm not sure of all the legalities and disclosure rules involved, but why in the hell should a state university bureaucrat have anything to fear from a Marine? The fact that he was trained for combat does not make him a bloodthirsty killer, or inclined to violence against anyone except the enemy on a battlefield.

Rather than thank him for his service and treat him with respect, he was treated like a suspect for no reason at all.

John_Wayne777

03-02-09, 19:39

There is a disconnect somewhere. Either the kid advocated violence and/or breaking the law, or he didn't. The Prof either accurately relayed what the student said or she didn't. The cops either responded correctly or they didn't.

You're neglecting a third option that is more likely:

The guy didn't say anything that objectively qualifies as threatening. The teacher, a hysterical ninny, calls the cops and reports that the student made "disturbing" statements and talked about carrying guns on campus. The campus police (who do not operate like a normal PD...they are an arm of the university administration) begins investigating the student and asks him in to get a read on him.

He didn't break any laws or make any threats. The teacher didn't break any laws. The campus PD was following up on a report that they couldn't ignore in the (here it comes again) "post VT world".

Did the cops overreact? Sure...in my opinion and your opinion. But guess what? We don't sign their paychecks, write their policies, or hire their chain of command. The university administration does that...and the university administration frequently directs campus police to do things that aren't kosher. Example: I know of a campus police officer who was told by the university administration to stop pursuing kiddie porn cases on the campus because the university officials didn't want the bad PR that came with it.

Now if the cops over reacted and went into databases they weren't supposed to be in, tsk, tsk. I thought domestic spying was treason, or at least it was pre Jan. 09.

One of the changes in Virginia law post VT was to give law enforcement more access to more information. I would assume other areas passed similar laws. I don't know what exactly they researched about this guy, but odds are that if they did improperly access privileged information then courts would hold it to be a "good faith" mistake and wouldn't penalize the university.

BATFE firearms transaction records aren't off-limits to local police. The BATFE can access them at any time and they can share information with local law enforcement. The BATFE did exactly that during the DC sniper fiasco...and the VASP ended up using the information they got from the BATFE to knock on the doors of people who bought guns and ask them a bunch of questions. They continued to do this even AFTER the DC snipers had been caught.

John_Wayne777

03-02-09, 19:42

Nope, they loath it and dread it just like all the schools do because it saps them of time and money.

They don't loathe it as much as you think...especially in an area like this. I know of a few cases where the school has been prepared to take things into court even though they were told by a state attorney general that they had no case.

They aren't so universally afraid of lawyers that they will instantly roll over and play dead. On some issues (like this one) they will fight to the last dollar if they have to solely on the principle of the thing.

John_Wayne777

03-02-09, 19:48

Cho did NOT simply make a speech about gun rights and how lawful licensed carry could mitigate the damage done by mentally disturbed shooters.

Extrapolating one to the other isn't apples to apples or even apples to oranges. It's apples to hand grenades!

Here's what I'm trying to communicate:

You know that.

I know that.

University officials, however, do NOT get that. The university environment is rife with hysterical ninnies who will call the cops on somebody in a college classroom who calmly and rationally discusses the topic of guns. There are multiple stories about it and I know of one case personally where a local man engaged in a debate about gun control in a classroom and was met by administrators the next day who wanted to search him because a classmate reported that he was carrying a gun and making threats.

In the post VT world (you sick of hearing that yet? I've been sick of it since three months after VT happened) the university administration (which, in my experience, has a problem with anyone who isn't some skull full of mush in the first place) isn't going to let any report go, no matter how feckless it may be. There have been multiple news stories of individuals who have been hammered by university administrations for comments about weapons. In the UVA case recently the guy appeared to ask for it, but in the others it was just people minding their own buisness. In the last couple of weeks there was a story about a Marine who was hammered by the administration because somebody reported a knife.

You are discussing a reasonable standard...but you have to understand that reasonable standards do not exist on college campuses.

Safetyhit

03-02-09, 20:07

You are discussing a reasonable standard...but you have to understand that reasonable standards do not exist on college campuses.

This is the heart of the issue.

11Bravo

03-02-09, 20:09

snip...My cousin-in-law is a former Marine who served in Korea in the early 90's. He was rated expert in firearms, explosives, hand-to-hand combat, and other combat skills. When he got out, he was told he had to report his whereabouts and military qualifications to local law enforcement, which he did.
Um...
Is his name Donnie Baker?
'Cuz...
I'm just sayin'...

snip...The fact that he was trained for combat does not make him a bloodthirsty killer, or inclined to violence against anyone except the enemy on a battlefield...snip
Oh, it absolutely it does.
Remember how after the DC snipers were caught there were those in the left media that were amazed that someone could be so highly trained as to be an expert marksman and not had to have undergone psychological evaluation first. You know, because after they get out they'll be a danger loosed on society that'll likely go off the deep end and start killing anyone and everyone.
OK, so one did, but....
For Christ's sake, I qualified expert.
Mostly; there was that one 25. :rolleyes:

Left Sig

03-02-09, 20:35

Um...
Is his name Donnie Baker?
'Cuz...
I'm just sayin'...

I get the joke, but he's not like that at all. I figured the stuff he was trained in is typical for most Marines - shooting, fighting, and blowing stuff up. He wasn't in any special ops unit or anything like that, nor does he claim to be. He says he was told by the Marines to inform local law enforcement of his record and such when he returned home. Is this at all common?

I just don't understand why a university bureaucrat would make such a big deal about him having to disclose his military qualifications to the school upon enrollment.

Again, Is this at all a common practice of any sort? Surely there are Marines here who have gone to college after being discharged who can answer the question.

RojasTKD

03-03-09, 00:03

I thought the Feds weren't supposed to have that kind of information?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Form_4473

sandman99and9

03-03-09, 07:51

For Christ's sake, I qualified expert.
Mostly; there was that one 25. :rolleyes:

Hey 11Bravo, did you have duane's training vids when you shot that 25 ??
He could have taught you to shoot 10 out 10 at 1000 yards :D

My 1st time qualifying I had the wrong sight app. up. When I requalified and shot expert my drill sgt. punched me in the shoulder for doing it right the first time !!
I miss sand hill :D lol

Palmguy

03-03-09, 08:00

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Form_4473

Thanks :rolleyes:

I guess what I was getting at is that what was described was essentially and functionally national registration. I've filled out 4473s at multiple locations across the entire state of Florida; so it would seem to me like quite an undertaking for the ATF to go around the whole damn state and search through thousands upon thousands of 4473s looking for my name. How would they know which gun shops to go to? This is the kind of thing I was getting at.

John_Wayne777

03-03-09, 08:29

Thanks :rolleyes:

I guess what I was getting at is that what was described was essentially and functionally national registration. I've filled out 4473s at multiple locations across the entire state of Florida; so it would seem to me like quite an undertaking for the ATF to go around the whole damn state and search through thousands upon thousands of 4473s looking for my name. How would they know which gun shops to go to? This is the kind of thing I was getting at.

Federal LE maintains electronic records of approvals. They are specifically forbidden from doing so by federal law, but they do it anyway for "auditing" purposes or some similar BS. John Ashcroft when he was AG made the DOJ get rid of the records after 24 hours to comply with federal law. He's the ONLY AG who has bothered to try and do something about it.

Whether or not the agencies complied with Ashcroft's directives is unknown...but probably unlikely.

Palmguy

03-03-09, 10:50

FromMyColdDeadHand

03-03-09, 16:04

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Form_4473

"Director John Milius portrayed his concerns over the Form 4473 in his film Red Dawn, where it is specifically mentioned as being used by an invading Soviet army to track down civilians who own guns."

Wolverines!!!!!!!!!

Tipy

03-03-09, 16:51

Left Sig,

I venture to say that your brother in law(?) is a liar. There are lots of Marines here on this site, lets see how many were told to register?

USMC 1968-1970, Infantry, explosives, flame throwers, 106mm recoiless rifle, machine gunner, M79 grenade launcher, and on and on.
Registered? No. Told to register? Hell no.
Come on Marines, how many of you were told to register your killing skills?
If I was told to register, I would not do so!!
What was his combat experience, not his combat training?

dbrowne1

03-03-09, 19:10

He didn't have to respond to the police. He could have politely asserted his rights rather than talking to them. As such, he has no real legal recourse available to him.

Or could have not so politely ignored their request completely and told the professor to go sit on a flagpole.

Also, I highly doubt the ATF went digging around in local dealers' forms prior to this interview. They have MUCH better things to do. CT must have some kind of registration scheme.

Heavy Metal

03-03-09, 21:09

Federal LE maintains electronic records of approvals. They are specifically forbidden from doing so by federal law, but they do it anyway for "auditing" purposes or some similar BS. John Ashcroft when he was AG made the DOJ get rid of the records after 24 hours to comply with federal law. He's the ONLY AG who has bothered to try and do something about it.

Whether or not the agencies complied with Ashcroft's directives is unknown...but probably unlikely.

........and that record of approval only notes your Name, Date of Birth and possibly your SSN if you authorize it and then 'Long gun' or 'Handgun'. Doesn't even say how many you are buying per transaction. Dosen't say what model or caliber or anything more descriptive than longgun or handgun. Anything more requires a trip to your local FFL to physically review the 4473 by an ATF agent or inspector. Detailed information is not volunteered to the ATF over the phone. Watch your FFL call yours in some time.

Heavy Metal

03-03-09, 21:15

I get the joke, but he's not like that at all. I figured the stuff he was trained in is typical for most Marines - shooting, fighting, and blowing stuff up. He wasn't in any special ops unit or anything like that, nor does he claim to be. He says he was told by the Marines to inform local law enforcement of his record and such when he returned home. Is this at all common?

I just don't understand why a university bureaucrat would make such a big deal about him having to disclose his military qualifications to the school upon enrollment.

Again, Is this at all a common practice of any sort? Surely there are Marines here who have gone to college after being discharged who can answer the question.

I think you need to tell your cousin-in-law to stop pissing down your back and telling you it is raining.