View Full Version : Which Tourniquet do you carry?
I'm currently using the SOF Tourniquet, with aluminum bar.
Scroll down, it's the first on when you get to the tourniquets.
http://www.cavalryarms.com/medical/MISC.html
I have ordered Med stuff from Cavalry Arms, great company to deal with and they ship to Iraq!
Iraq Ninja
03-03-09, 10:16
I am still using the CAT. The SOF is good too, but is a bit more bulky. I carry 4 CATs on me at work. Two are on my kit, and two are in the pockets of my flightsuit.
So, two are above waist, and two below. I do this because blasts tend to mess up gear along with bodies. It would suck to find out your CAT is laying 10 feet away in the pocket of the leg that used to be attached to your body. :)
Interesting that you posted this, as having a "tourniquet resource" thread was something I wanted to start in the new section. There certainly appear to be a lot of options. Here's a few that I'm aware of that look to be the most common or at least the most marketed towards our purposes. Listed alphabetically.
Cavalry Arms (http://www.cavalryarms.com/medical/MISC.html)
$15
http://www.cavalryarms.com/medical/cav.jpg
Combat Applications Tourniquet (C-A-T) (http://www.combattourniquet.com/)
$30+/-
http://www.combattourniquet.com/images/anatomy.jpg
Mechanical Advantage Tourniquet (MAT) (http://www.mat-tourniquet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/mat-product-labelled-lowres.jpg)
$36+/-
http://publicsafety.com/article/photos/1166050064925_MAT_PressRelease11-7.bmp
McMillan Tourniquet (http://www.csmgear.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=tourniquet&cat=3&page=1&search=&since=&status=)
$26
http://www.csmgear.com/imimg/tourniquet_1.jpg
Racheting Medical Touniquet (RMT) (http://www.m2intl.com/military/index.shtml)
$30+/-
http://www.m2intl.com/gfx/Gen14Hand2.gif
SOF Tactical Tourniquet (SOF-T) (http://www.tacmedsolutions.com/07/products/product_detail.php?pic_id=1801&prod_id=2&pageNum_get_pics=2&totalRows_get_pics=9)
$25+/-
http://www.tacmedsolutions.com/07/gallery/softourn_09.jpg
SWAT-Tourniquet (SWAT-T) (http://www.swattourniquet.com/)
$9+/-
http://www.swattourniquet.com/SWAT%20in%20and%20out%20of%20package.JPG
Tourni-Kwik-4 and 4L (TK-4 (http://cinchtight.com/html/tk-4.html) AND TK-4L (http://cinchtight.com/html/tk-4l.html))
$6/$12
4
http://www.chinookmed.com/mas_assets/full/05157.jpg
4L
http://cinchtight.com/assets/images/TK-4L.JPG
I am still using the CAT. The SOF is good too, but is a bit more bulky. I carry 4 CATs on me at work. Two are on my kit, and two are in the pockets of my flightsuit.
So, two are above waist, and two below. I do this because blasts tend to mess up gear along with bodies. It would suck to find out your CAT is laying 10 feet away in the pocket of the leg that used to be attached to your body. :)
I also have a CAT- you are right about being less bulky. Less secondary frag also...
Interesting that you posted this, as having a "tourniquet resource" thread was something I wanted to start in the new section. There certainly appear to be a lot of options. Here's a few that I'm aware of that look to be the most common or at least the most marketed towards our purposes. Listed alphabetically.
Rob,
A bunch of guys out here [in the past] carried a modified ratchet strap as a tourniquet, they will work, but under stress it's easy to over tighten and cause even more tissue damage.
Some still might use them, but they weight about 1lb.
Our medics don't recommend them.
Failure2Stop
03-03-09, 11:08
Anybody have a side by side comparison of the tourniquets?
I am currently carrying the SOF (with tactical black windlass), but it is pretty big. It looks like the CavArms is a relatively more efficient package, but I really have no idea, and I am interested in the CAT if it is a space saver over the SOF and has been effective.
F2S, I have, or will shortly, all of the above on order from one place or another. I was trying my best to find one place that had them all so I could pay shipping one time but that doesn't look like it's going to happen. I want to weigh, measure, etc. each one and get some apples:apples photos of each one.
Cinch Tight (http://cinchtight.com/index.html) Tourni-Kwik 4 (TK-4 or TK-4L)
Cinch Tight (http://cinchtight.com/index.html) Tourni-Kwik 4 (TK-4 or TK-4L)
Thanks, forgot about those. Adding to the post above.
Anybody have a side by side comparison of the tourniquets?
I am currently carrying the SOF (with tactical black windlass), but it is pretty big. It looks like the CavArms is a relatively more efficient package, but I really have no idea, and I am interested in the CAT if it is a space saver over the SOF and has been effective.
I can get you a side by side pic of the CAT & SOF ones later tonight hopefully.
The twist bar on the CAT is plastic, seems pretty stiff but I'm not sure how much pressure it would take to break.
Anyone know anything about the MAT (http://www.mat-tourniquet.com/about-mat/)?
Iraq Ninja
03-03-09, 12:51
http://www.acep.org/workarea/showcontent.aspx?id=40782
EVALUATION OF SELF-APPLIED
TOURNIQUETS FOR COMBAT APPLICATIONS 2007
CAT and SOF Tactical Tourniquets. Best I could do...
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o309/laninga66/DSC03142.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o309/laninga66/DSC03145.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o309/laninga66/DSC03147.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o309/laninga66/DSC03143.jpg
Side note on the SOF, I had the "flap" folded under the main section of the twist bar so the screw lock device could be seen easier. Normally the scuba webbing also be under that screw lock device. Hope that makes sense.
The CAT definitely folds up flatter and is lighter.
Iraq Ninja
03-03-09, 13:01
Anyone know anything about the MAT (http://www.mat-tourniquet.com/about-mat/)?
Carried them back in 2006. Nice idea, but the thing broke. Plus, when you let off the pressure and it unwinds, it goes very fast which is a bad thing.
Not sure if they are better now. Lastly, they are bulky.
Iraq Ninja
03-03-09, 13:09
Bad thing about the CAT is it is all black. This can be bad in a low light situation, such as ... on the floor of a Surburban with your sunglasses on, bouncing down a road.
Rob, you should have some made in Yellow to match your visor!
I have SOF, CAT and LBT Ratchet Tourniquet.
but I prefer the CAT because it's quite KISS....
Bad thing about the CAT is it is all black. This can be bad in a low light situation, such as ... on the floor of a Surburban with your sunglasses on, bouncing down a road.
Rob, you should have some made in Yellow to match your visor!
FWIW, it does come in orange (http://www.combattourniquet.com/emergency-medical-tourniquet.php)
NinjaMedic
03-03-09, 14:27
I carry two SOF tourniquets in every bag and vest I have, plus two LBT ratchet tourniquets in my med bag for serious lower extremity trauma such as amputations and blast injuries where I am not necessarily as concerned about additional tissue damage as I am about stopping blood flow.
I carry a MAT for personal use due to ease and I have (2) SOF-T's.
Anyone know anything about the MAT (http://www.mat-tourniquet.com/about-mat/)?
The CAT I picked up is in 'rescue orange'. Since it's in my range 'oh-shit' bag, I wanted to make sure that it was very plainly seen. Right now it's in the bag, but I might pick up the TourniquetNow! from Blue Force Gear since my range bag has PALS webbing outside.
They're definitely tools you need to practice with to become proficient with.
-B
I carry two tk-4's on the chest rig and two more in the range bag.
Anyone know anything about the MAT (http://www.mat-tourniquet.com/about-mat/)?
The MAT is severely flawed. If yu crank down to the point that you get occlusion and then crank once or twice more, the 550 cord guts will pop and the device will lose all tension. It's a neat concept, but the execution isn't there yet.
Doc Mike of CSM Gear has the McMillan Tourniquet
http://www.csmgear.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?cat=3
Myrmidon08
03-04-09, 20:09
The NATO tourniquet is the best one I have seen. No parts to break, useful for self treatment, cheap, and light weight.
http://www.extremeoutfitters.us/natotourniquet.aspx
Iraq Ninja
03-04-09, 20:42
The NATO tourniquet is the best one I have seen. No parts to break, useful for self treatment, cheap, and light weight.
http://www.extremeoutfitters.us/natotourniquet.aspx
The problem with the NATO is that it came in last place in the testing done by the Navy Experimental Diving Unit. I posted the link to the PDF earlier in this discussion. This is probably one of the better reviews done so far. I was surprised how well the MAT did...
Cavalry Arms (http://www.cavalryarms.com/medical/MISC.html)
$15
Combat Applications Tourniquet (C-A-T) (http://www.combattourniquet.com/)
$30+/-
Mechanical Advantage Tourniquet (MAT) (http://www.mat-tourniquet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/mat-product-labelled-lowres.jpg)
$36+/-
McMillan Tourniquet (http://www.csmgear.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=tourniquet&cat=3&page=1&search=&since=&status=)
$26
Racheting Medical Touniquet (RMT) (http://www.m2intl.com/military/index.shtml)
$30+/-
SOF Tactical Tourniquet (SOF-T) (http://www.tacmedsolutions.com/07/products/product_detail.php?pic_id=1801&prod_id=2&pageNum_get_pics=2&totalRows_get_pics=9)
$25+/-
SWAT-Tourniquet (SWAT-T) (http://www.swattourniquet.com/)
$9+/-
Tourni-Kwik-4 and 4L (TK-4 (http://cinchtight.com/html/tk-4.html) AND TK-4L (http://cinchtight.com/html/tk-4l.html))
$6/$12
So far I've received those marked in red, with those marked in blue in-bound. Once they're all here I'll get some pics of the group and singly to get relative (to each other, a magazine, and a round) size as well as weight of each. I also have a BFG Tourniquet NOW! (http://blueforcegear.com/product.cfm?type=cat&cat_id=6&prod_id=113) strap inbound to check compatibility with each product.
I was issued both CAT and SOF while in Iraq. Both are very good tourniquets, but I'm more partial to the SOF because I don't like the idea of a chance of the CAT snapping.
I was issued both CAT and SOF while in Iraq. Both are very good tourniquets, but I'm more partial to the SOF because I don't like the idea of a chance of the CAT snapping.
My understanding of some of the CAT windlass strap durability problems is that troops were overusing their CATs for training, whereas the CAT is supposed to be a single use item. Perhaps having a separate CAT for training purposes is the way to go?
One of the interesting things to me about the Navy study on tourniquets is that the SOF-T did not prove statistically more durable than the CAT (both experienced a very low failure rate; see page 27 and appendix C-1). Also, if the subjective data is excluded and only the empirical measurements are used, the CAT moves up into the list of 'A' tourniquets (this is discussed on page 32).
FWIW, they do sell a blue trainer (http://www.narescue.com/Combat-Application-Tourniquet-C-A-T---Trainer-Blue-P204C145.aspx) version of the CAT.
I personally carry 3 SOF-T and one CAT on my kit. I prefer the SOF-T for durability, but it has draw backs. You HAVE to train with it our you will forget to tighten that screw; death sentence, and its a bit bigger. I carry the CAT for myself. The CAT is much better for one handed application.
Most importantly its a personal choice and what you have trained with the most.
calebgriffin31
03-18-09, 10:00
Rob, I am looking forward to that review. Thanks!
Anyone have any contacts at Cav, CAT, or SOF-T? I contacted all of the makers listed and all but these three replied to me. I may be getting lost in their spam filters but would appreciate a direct contact at the manufacturers if anyone has one.
Thanks.
Anyone have any contacts at Cav, CAT, or SOF-T? I contacted all of the makers listed and all but these three replied to me. I may be getting lost in their spam filters but would appreciate a direct contact at the manufacturers if anyone has one.
Thanks.
I'm sending out your Tourniquet NOW! Straps today; I'll throw in one of each of these for your eval.
Stephen
I'm sending out your Tourniquet NOW! Straps today; I'll throw in one of each of these for your eval.
Stephen
Hey man, thanks!
Hey man, thanks!
No problem Brother.
Stephen
Rob, your going to love the TQ now straps there are the answer to a lot of issues
i got mine from Stephen at shot I need 3 more my AI's cant get get over them on our armor and first line molle belts for teaching and duty use they are the best thing i got at shot this year, along with there trama kit now its the best of all worlds it has taken th eplace of many of my old med kits with a lot less bulk
I run the csm tq by the way
airwayguru
03-20-09, 19:37
I carry the CAT Tourniquet and my created system with 1" Tubalar Webbing and a rachet I created.
I am planning get a few more CAT when I go to CA for my mission trip.
I have also used BP Cuffs as tourniquets. They work well also.
Got the package Stephen, thanks!
I used to carry the SOF-T. I switched out to the Cav arms tourniquet when I first read about it. Just as user-friendly, and as others have said, less likelihood of secondary missile/wounding issues.
believeraz
03-23-09, 11:43
I run SOF-T tourniquets. I have two on my vest in a double 40mm pouch (they fit well if folded properly), one in my BOK for me, and one in my first line bleeding pouch. I have another few in my aid bag. I have a mix of SOF-T and LBT ratchets stashed all over in the vehicles.
I really need to modernize my medical training, those are nothing like Ive seen before.
Got the package Stephen, thanks!
;) No problem. Looking forward to your AAR.
Ashley and I did a lot of comparisons, evaluations, and research when we were putting together the refill for our Trauma Kit. I'm curious to see if you come to some of the same conclusions that we did. Good luck!
Stephen
got most of the samplings in, and shot some photos today. Teaser
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/website/Med/Tourniquets.jpg
Never got the MAT, I don't think. We have a house full of people lately though so the package may have wandered off. I got shots today of all of the above TQs mounted in the TQNOW strap on my chest rig. Very informative.
I'm not familiar with the lime green one, second from top, on right.
Link?
I'm not familiar with the lime green one, second from top, on right.
Link?
It's the McMillan (http://www.csmgear.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=tourniquet&cat=3&page=1&search=&since=&status=) from page one
Anyone have any contacts at Cav, CAT, or SOF-T? I contacted all of the makers listed and all but these three replied to me. I may be getting lost in their spam filters but would appreciate a direct contact at the manufacturers if anyone has one.
Thanks.
Rob, I know the people that make the SOF-T, we buy lots of them. I will give you the contact info when I see you tomorrow.
We use both the SOF-T (1st and 2nd Gen) and the CAT. I have played wit the MAT and don't like it for various reasons.
FWIW- 1st Gen SOF-T were selling for $10.
Steve
got most of the samplings in, and shot some photos today. Teaser
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/website/Med/Tourniquets.jpg
Rob,
THE SOF-T you have pictured is a 1st Gen model. The 2nd Gens have a black windlass that is a little shorter and a larger knurled knob on the clamp.
Steve
pics of each mounted in TQ NOW strap from Blue Force Gear. Clearly, some tweaking of each TQ would be required to facilitate easy withdrawal from the bands holding it to the MOLLE. Things like buckles, windlasses, etc. can all get in the way and I did not attempt to maximize the orientation for these pictures, but instead attempted to minimize the bulk/size.
Blue Force Gear Tourniquet NOW! (http://blueforcegear.com/product.cfm?type=cat&cat_id=6&prod_id=113) strap empty
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/website/Med/TQNOW.jpg
TK-4
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/website/Med/TQNOWTK4.jpg
SWAT-T
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/website/Med/TQNOWSWAT.jpg
SOF-T
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/website/Med/TQNOWSOFT.jpg
RMT
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/website/Med/TQNOWRMT.jpg
McMillan
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/website/Med/TQNOWMCMILLAN.jpg
Cavarms
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/website/Med/TQNOWCAV.jpg
C-A-T
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/website/Med/TQNOWCAT.jpg
Great pics Rob! This definitely motivates me to pick up a Tourniquet Now! for my CAT. However, I wish Blue Force would offer more shipping options on their website - unfortunately, ordering a Tourniquet Now from BFG means you pay more in shipping than you do for the strap. I'll wait until I need a few more items to make the order worthwhile.
Failure2Stop
04-04-09, 00:18
I finally got ahold of a few CATs (thanks random Doc) a little while ago, and I really like them. My only frame of reference is the Gen 2 SOF-T though. The CAT is much flatter when folded down, and is much less lumpy. I am now relegating the SOF-Ts to applications in which their protuberances are not as much of a liability and moving the CATs to my armor and pockets.
Thanks to all the input that others have put into this thread, without it I never would have made the effort.
ETA- the McMillan has kinda caught my eye since it is so narrow, anybody with more detailed info as to it's actual performance?
CAT. Never seen one break, even the overused trainer models. Works great, lasts a long time.
ETA- the McMillan has kinda caught my eye since it is so narrow, anybody with more detailed info as to it's actual performance?
The narrow width of the McMillan is the biggest downside to it's design in my mind.
Wide is good for a tourniquet. Narrow just decreases the efficacy and increases the change for secondary injury. Not that the risk of secondary injury is the greatest of concerns if you are at the point of using a tourniquet, but if alleviating some of that risk can be accomplished alongside increasing the efficacy, I'm taking that route.
Failure2Stop
04-13-09, 15:43
Sorry to keep sticking my fingers into this thread, but it is simple enough for me to actually follow.
Since the beginning of this thread I have switrched over to a CAT in a BFG Tourniquet NOW thingy with a spare pair floating around my kit as I feel necessary. One word to describe the combination- "Awesome".
I had concerns about being able to quckly access the CAT, but it's like the BFG TN and CAT were made for each other. I wear it high and central, and I really have no idea how they could make either part any better without having them self-apply and arrive for free.
Failure2Stop
04-13-09, 15:44
Sorry to keep sticking my fingers into this thread, but it is simple enough for me to actually follow.
Since the beginning of this thread I have switrched over to a CAT in a BFG Tourniquet NOW thingy with a spare pair floating around my kit as I feel necessary. One word to describe the combination- "Awesome".
I had concerns about being able to quckly access the CAT, but it's like the BFG TN and CAT were made for each other. I wear it high and central (pretty much just like rob_s has it pictured), and I really have no idea how they could make either part any better without having them self-apply and arrive for free.
Iraq Ninja
04-13-09, 16:06
The importance of this subject was made clear today near Karbala. It probably didn't make the news, but an EFP hit a US Army vehicle today, resulting in one KIA and 2 WIA. We passed the vehicle as it was being towed back to a FOB. It happened on a route used by many of us. We continued on with our mission through the AO without further incidents.
Though details are sketchy, we were told that the driver's legs were hit by one of the slugs, resulting in massive damage. No doubt that tourniquets were used, but sometimes the loss of blood is just too great.
Always carry more than one tourniquet. You may not have IEDs to worry about in the States, but car wrecks can cause similar situations. Keep them on your kit, in your home, and in your car...
I received a BFG Tourniquet Now! strap ordered from Supply Captain today. Works well with my CAT - simple and effective. I need to experiment further to figure out the best placement on my plate carrier - along the centerline makes a lot of sense, but right now I have it attached to the PALS on the side panel of my HSGI bleeder pack. Pulling the CAT out of the HSGI bleeder freed up a lot of room in the pouch, and mounting it on the side made it much faster to access. I need to experiment further with this combination before I'd commit to it, but I wouldn't be surprised to see medical pouches in the future with an integrated Tourniquet Now strap.
I went looking for this thread as I had remembered reading it a while back as I had occasion to use a personally-owned CAT tourniquet last month in Manhattan. We had been issued them and carry it on our duty rig but after seeing and hearing about how effective they were I bought a few and put them in my carry bag and one in my vehicle. At the time of the incident mentioned here I had finished my tour for the day and was actually driving home on the West Side Highway when I came across the truck that had jumped a curb. The truck had smashed into a light post and I noted that there was a person being attended to by two other people. What struck me was that it was so odd in the middle of New York City to not see any emergency vehicles or anyone in uniform, so I decided to stop.
42792
This is a description taken from an email sent by our director of operational medicine:
"The FBI has its own uniformed police force securing several of our key facilities across the country. The FBI Operational Medicine staff has trained them in our version of TC3 combat lifesaver and equipped them with TQs carried on their patrol belts and IFAKS in police vehicles and guard posts.
Last week one of our police officers in Manhattan came upon a victim of a reported auto-pedestrian accident sitting on a bench at the scene. He observed a large quanity of blood running through the slats of the bench from a wound in the victim's thigh. Another rescuer was attempting to use a belt as a TQ without effect. The officer applied his issued TQ 'high and tight' over clothing per TC3 principles with good result. I am told the victim was transferred to EMS awake and alert."
The victim had been standing by the road waiting to cross when she was struck by the vehicle. Driver had fallen asleep after working an overnight shift and jump the curb. She sustained a broken pelvis, a broken kneecap and a deep laceration on her thigh. One of my lieutenants has since spoken to the attending physician and was told that had the tourniquet not been applied when it was the victim would have needed at the very least a transfusion due to blood loss.
I wanted to put this on m4c as the most positive thing that has come out of the event has been all the agents and support staff that have located, re-located or purchased either an IFAK or a tourniquet themselves to keep in or around their person all the time. We had received our Care Under Fire (CUF) training from a couple of medics on the New York SWAT team and I felt more than prepared when the incident actually occurred. I can say from experience that the CAT is both extremely simple and effective. As I had never used one other than in training before the incident mentioned above.
Anyway, that's my story and I thought it was fitting to add into this thread.
HardToHandle
12-10-16, 06:52
Well done sir!
Well done sir!
Thank you. It was quite the interesting event. Learned a bit about myself and more about the tourniquet itself.
I used a CAT about a month ago on a machete wound to the arm. The laceration was pouring blood, and the patient had TWO arteries severed. After proper application of the tourniquet, I was able to get the bleeding completely stopped and the patient to the operating room. I carry two of them in my truck and I think that proper tourniquet training is essential for people who may encounter serious trauma (including people in the shooting sports)
Now that is good work! A machete!? Whole different ball game there.
tacticaldesire
12-16-16, 03:13
Excellent work!
Great job by the two of you for 1. Having a TQ, 2. Knowing how to use it, 3. Being willing to help.
A note for anyone who carries a TQ, direct pressure and elevation should be the 1st choice if applicable. A lot of factors go into that decision and must be weighed against the possible down sides of tourniquet use. As with everything, training is paramount.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Great job by the two of you for 1. Having a TQ, 2. Knowing how to use it, 3. Being willing to help.
A note for anyone who carries a TQ, direct pressure and elevation should be the 1st choice if applicable. A lot of factors go into that decision and must be weighed against the possible down sides of tourniquet use. As with everything, training is paramount.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Elevation is out.
What possible downside of TQ use are you referring to?
Elevation is out.
What possible downside of TQ use are you referring to?
Mainly loss of limb, still preferable to loss of life of course. I know people have different opinions on tourniquets so I tried to edit that part out but forgot to hit save.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I carry 2 SOFT-W TQ's with me all the time & I keep 4 CAT's in my trauma kit in my car. I'm a retired Army medic, TC3 instructor, am currently an EMT for a 9-11 service, and a paramedic student. The modern CAT AND SOF-T-W are my go to choices for life threatening hemorrhage control. In theater I have seen the CAT AND SOF-T left in place or replaced by cleaner TQ's by surgeons until they have achieved hemostasis in the Operating Room. Sacrificing a limb for a life has been dispelled by observations and studies by the Comitee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care. Civilian pre hospital care providers (ER Physicians and EMS agencies nationwide) have adopted some of the principles of TC3, specifically that manufactured or improvised TQ are the method of choice and a best practice for life threatening bleeding.
I carry 2 SOFT-W TQ's with me all the time & I keep 4 CAT's in my trauma kit in my car. I'm a retired Army medic, TC3 instructor, am currently an EMT for a 9-11 service, and a paramedic student. The modern CAT AND SOF-T-W are my go to choices for life threatening hemorrhage control. In theater I have seen the CAT AND SOF-T left in place or replaced by cleaner TQ's by surgeons until they have achieved hemostasis in the Operating Room. Sacrificing a limb for a life has been dispelled by observations and studies by the Comitee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care. Civilian pre hospital care providers (ER Physicians and EMS agencies nationwide) have adopted some of the principles of TC3, specifically that manufactured or improvised TQ are the method of choice and a best practice for life threatening bleeding.
I understand and do not disagree. Not knowing who people behind these screen names are, what I was trying to convey is that more options are better. I have seen people reach for a TQ when they are hours from a hospital for a bleed that was controlled with a handful of 4x4s and stretch gauze. Call me crazy but that's not a situation where I want a TQ on my limb.
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I understand and do not disagree. Not knowing who people behind these screen names are, what I was trying to convey is that more options are better. I have seen people reach for a TQ when they are hours from a hospital for a bleed that was controlled with a handful of 4x4s and stretch gauze. Call me crazy but that's not a situation where I want a TQ on my limb.
That's reasonable. The key is to not dither with other methods when indication for a TQ is obvious. That was common in legacy methods, and early in the TQ revival of recent years. Still is, in some places.
Absolutely. If I came across as discouraging their use when indicated I apologize. If there is a need cinch that thing down.
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TacMedic556
02-28-17, 10:31
SOF-T and CAT.
hotrodder636
02-28-17, 11:12
SOF-T in my range bag with my IFAK. I would like to get another or a couple CATs
Mr. Goodtimes
02-28-17, 23:22
I keep a couple CAT's in the truck medical bag and I keep a CAT in my hiking pack. They're free from work.
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Mr. Goodtimes
02-28-17, 23:42
I understand and do not disagree. Not knowing who people behind these screen names are, what I was trying to convey is that more options are better. I have seen people reach for a TQ when they are hours from a hospital for a bleed that was controlled with a handful of 4x4s and stretch gauze. Call me crazy but that's not a situation where I want a TQ on my limb.
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It's from a lack of education and/or field experience. Your average tactical Timmy who reads forums and watches movies sees how heavily it's recommended to keep a TQ, combined with a lack of field experience in seeing what actual serious bleeding is, and you get someone throwing a TQ on a leg with a laceration that resulted in some capillary or venous bleeding.
I get it... if someone is shooting blood from their femoral artery and we're 30 min from a trauma center, I'll probably skip to a TQ but short of that, I'm at least going to try some direct pressure and gauze. But people who have never seen blood before see a little red shit on the ground and a hole in someone and all of a sudden it's "ERMAGERD TQ TQ TQ, QUICKCLOT QUICKCLOT QUICKCLOT!!!!!!"
Many people also don't realize the huge difference in field medicine CONUS vs OCONUS in somewhere like Afghanistan. Rural areas sometimes being an exception.
The order i was taught in school was direct pressure, elevation, pressure point, quick clot, TQ, although that was about five years ago. Obviously, that's also a guideline, and street medicine happens in a different order when indicated, but it's a good guideline nonetheless. People need to really consider what's actually appropriate treatment for what they're treating before they toss QC in a wound or slap a TQ on.
I would consider the type of bleeding and how much, mechanism of injury, location of injury and location of nearest appropriate hospital/transport time and go from there.
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It's from a lack of education and/or field experience. Your average tactical Timmy who reads forums and watches movies sees how heavily it's recommended to keep a TQ, combined with a lack of field experience in seeing what actual serious bleeding is, and you get someone throwing a TQ on a leg with a laceration that resulted in some capillary or venous bleeding.
Blood pours help with that. Many have never seen more than a few cc's outside of the body, nor do they realize how much you can lose.
The order i was taught in school was direct pressure, elevation, pressure point, quick clot, TQ, although that was about five years ago. Obviously, that's also a guideline, and street medicine happens in a different order when indicated, but it's a good guideline nonetheless.
That guideline has hung on in some basic first aid curriculums, but it's mostly gone otherwise. Where did you encounter it? When studied the elevation and pressure points weren't found to do much of anything, and had students getting stuck in algorithms rather than treating patients. See also: elevating legs for shock = gone. Current is direct pressure via manual or mechanical application (pressure dressing, pack), following by a TQ for an extremity. That's it.
A big reason direct pressure fails is that people are generally doing it wrong. Direct pressure isn't holding a dressing in place, it's sustained aggressive pressure and compression to bleeding tissues. Done correctly, it works more often than most would believe.
Mr. Goodtimes
03-02-17, 08:57
Blood pours help with that. Many have never seen more than a few cc's outside of the body, nor do they realize how much you can lose.
That guideline has hung on in some basic first aid curriculums, but it's mostly gone otherwise. Where did you encounter it? When studied the elevation and pressure points weren't found to do much of anything, and had students getting stuck in algorithms rather than treating patients. See also: elevating legs for shock = gone. Current is direct pressure via manual or mechanical application (pressure dressing, pack), following by a TQ for an extremity. That's it.
A big reason direct pressure fails is that people are generally doing it wrong. Direct pressure isn't holding a dressing in place, it's sustained aggressive pressure and compression to bleeding tissues. Done correctly, it works more often than most would believe.
EMT-B course in 2012. I start EMT-P in fall though so I would be interested to see if it's still in the book, from what you say it doesn't sound like it.
Like I said too, it's the order I learned in class however, it's not the order I do things in on the street. If It's an extremely and I can't control it with direct pressure, it's going to get a TQ. Where I work were never more than 30min from a trauma center.
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I currently have on my person or vehicle (most all times) SWAT-T, however with my firearms gear (range, bump in the night) a SOF-TTW. I read through the post, it definitely seems CAT and SOF are the preference. Any thoughts on the SWAT? I have limited training, however do practice with each - I know I need more medical training though and am loking into that. TIA
tacticaldesire
03-02-17, 18:17
I currently have on my person or vehicle (most all times) SWAT-T, however with my firearms gear (range, bump in the night) a SOF-TTW. I read through the post, it definitely seems CAT and SOF are the preference. Any thoughts on the SWAT? I have limited training, however do practice with each - I know I need more medical training though and am loking into that. TIA
The SWAT-T is a good TQ if applied correctly and is good for edc but it's far from ideal. It's easy to use for buddy aid but applying it to yourself with one hand can get tricky and often involves teeth. The advantage of the SWAT-T is in it's size and for peds use. If you're putting together a kit to keep in a bag, vehicle, workshop etc. I would choose a CAT or SOFTT-W. For a pocket kit the SWAT-T is preferable to say the TK-4 or RATs in my opinion but that's up to preference. One thing I like about the SWAT T is that it can be used as a pressure dressing which is more than likely what you'll be needing anyway VS a TQ. But if I'm being dispatched to a call and I know what I'll be walking into I'm grabbing the CAT.
The SWAT-T is a good TQ if applied correctly and is good for edc but it's far from ideal. It's easy to use for buddy aid but applying it to yourself with one hand can get tricky and often involves teeth. The advantage of the SWAT-T is in it's size and for peds use. If you're putting together a kit to keep in a bag, vehicle, workshop etc. I would choose a CAT or SOFTT-W. For a pocket kit the SWAT-T is preferable to say the TK-4 or RATs in my opinion but that's up to preference. One thing I like about the SWAT T is that it can be used as a pressure dressing which is more than likely what you'll be needing anyway VS a TQ. But if I'm being dispatched to a call and I know what I'll be walking into I'm grabbing the CAT.
Thanks for the reply. I also read through some other threads here in the EFA forum and the consensus definitely seems to say CAT or SOF, however the SWAT is good for lightweight EDC or if it is all you got. And this is basically why I have the SWAT, it is lo pro to have with me the majority of the day and in all sorts of places. All this being said, I need to add another or two more TQ's and so I may branch out to try a CAT.
CAT, I carry a few of them. A couple on my PC, in my car, and my med bag. I also have a RATS, but the CAT reigns supreme IMHO.
hotrodder636
03-09-17, 12:56
I haven't seen any or much discussion on the RATS. What are the thoughts on it here?
I haven't seen any or much discussion on the RATS. What are the thoughts on it here?
It is OK. I feel it's not as intuitive to use as the CAT, which isn't good, especially for people without medical experience, or in a stressful situation. However, it is pretty good to carry around, as it is thin, and easily concealable on a belt etc for simple edc. It would never be my first line of defense for hemorrhage control, but it would probably be my third, I really dislike the SWAT-T TQ. In order of preference CAT, SOF-T, RATS, SWAT-T.
I spoke with the man behind the RAT. The gist of the conversation was that Afghan National Army Soldiers would not apply the appropriate amount of pressure with CAT or SOF-T when training. Seeing that the ANA guys were adverse to the pain of TQ application, they needed something else and the RAT was born. The RAT is misleading because it has TC3 approved stamped or engraved into the metal, but The Comitee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care (CoTCCC) in Ft Sam Houston, TX has not recommended it.
When training with your TQ you have to remember that it is painful! Have a TQ specifically for training and a few for actual life threatening bleeding. If you wear them mounted on your kit, change them out every six months or so and use the old TQ for training. And never ever use your FAK to store your iPhone, cigarettes, Copenhagen, skittles, or anything but your 1st Aid gear.
I spoke with the man behind the RAT. The gist of the conversation was that Afghan National Army Soldiers would not apply the appropriate amount of pressure with CAT or SOF-T when training. Seeing that the ANA guys were adverse to the pain of TQ application, they needed something else and the RAT was born. The RAT is misleading because it has TC3 approved stamped or engraved into the metal, but The Comitee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care (CoTCCC) in Ft Sam Houston, TX has not recommended it.
When training with your TQ you have to remember that it is painful! Have a TQ specifically for training and a few for actual life threatening bleeding. If you wear them mounted on your kit, change them out every six months or so and use the old TQ for training. And never ever use your FAK to store your iPhone, cigarettes, Copenhagen, skittles, or anything but your 1st Aid gear.
Well said. I also read the same thing about the RATS not being TCCC certified. We didn't even use/talk about one when I did my TCCC course, nor have I met any other medics that actually like it.
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