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ZDL
03-03-09, 22:45
Subscribers bitch about the WOD here.

www.crossfit.com


rest day............................ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

WillBrink
03-04-09, 17:25
Well hell, if I had known there was gonna be a fitness/health section I would have put into such as this info on injury rates in SF I just posted:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26534

In this forum. If the mods want to move any of health/fitness related I have already put up, please do so. Anyway, here's my addition to this section:

The Mistake of Linear Program Design

I find most people will design a program for themselves and follow it in a linear fashion, that is they run X times per week for Y distance, lift X times per week doing Y number of sets, etc. with little change over time. A result oriented program looks like a wave form where volume and intensity peaks, say over a 6-8 week period (as an example, but programs vary widely), with volume and or loading reduced 40-60% for a week or two, then either repeated, or onto some other program. Some programs will call for taking a week off totally between programs.

Increasing intensity and or volume improves the response up to a point, then falls off sharply as you hit over training syndromes (OTS) and or injuries or both. So, periods of planned increases in volume and or intensity to reach a personal mile stone, followed by a detraining period, is best to optimizing training, reaching new personal bests, and avoiding OTS. The study listed below gives some insight into that also.

A linear program where you do the same thing each week, such as run X miles and lift X weights will be limiting. Athletes left to their own, will generally follow a “more is better” linear approach, where as a good coach will follow the “smart is better” approach, which follows a wave form pattern. Within that wave form pattern may be micro cycles and other stuff too, but that depends on the program.

There have been some interesting studies where they have taken runners and swimmers, cut their volume in half, and their times improved! Why? Because they were over training.

I find that is often the case with strength athletes also.

Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise:

Volume 39(8)August 2007pp 1358-1365

Effects of Tapering on Performance: A Meta-Analysis

ABSTRACT

Purpose: The purpose of this investigation was to assess the effects of alterations in taper components on performance in competitive athletes, through a meta-analysis.

Methods: Six databases were searched using relevant terms and strategies. Criteria for study inclusion were that participants must be competitive athletes, a tapering intervention must be employed providing details about the procedures used to decrease the training load, use of actual competition or field-based criterion performance, and inclusion of all necessary data to calculate effect sizes. Datasets reported in more than one published study were only included once in the present analyses. Twenty-seven of 182 potential studies met these criteria and were included in the analysis. The dependent variable was performance, and the independent variables were the decrease in training intensity, volume, and frequency, as well as the pattern of the taper and its duration. Pre-post taper standardized mean differences in performance were calculated and weighted according to the within-group heterogeneity to develop an overall effect.

Results: The optimal strategy to optimize performance is a tapering intervention of 2-wk duration (overall effect = 0.59 ± 0.33, P < 0.001), where the training volume is exponentially decreased by 41-60% (overall effect = 0.72 ± 0.36, P < 0.001), without any modification of either training intensity (overall effect = 0.33 ± 0.14, P < 0.001) or frequency (overall effect = 0.35 ± 0.17, P < 0.001).

Conclusion: A 2-wk taper during which training volume is exponentially reduced by 41-60% seems to be the most efficient strategy to maximize performance gains. This meta-analysis provides a framework that can be useful for athletes, coaches, and sport scientists to optimize their tapering strategy.

The Bottom Line:

People should understand that designing effective, efficient, programs is not nearly as simple as it might appear. Unless you have long term experience with concepts such loading, volume, TUT, etc, etc, pick a program by a trusted coach and follow it. The haphazard routines I see people self invent are often responsible for a lack of steady progress in the gym.

WillBrink
03-04-09, 17:28
Mods, please remove. posted in the wrong thread. :(

ZDL
03-04-09, 17:30
Do you know anything about crossfit? It is the farthest thing from a linear program there is. It prides itself on, rather loudly, being dynamic. The site is enormous and information is bountiful. It's also free. Take a few days and sift through it. You'll find it's definitive in it's research. Good luck.

WillBrink
03-04-09, 17:37
Do you know anything about crossfit?

Yes, I do. However, I wrote above "Mods, please remove. posted in the wrong thread."

ZDL
03-04-09, 17:38
Yes, I do. However, I wrote above "Mods, please remove. posted in the wrong thread."

Didn't see that at the time. No worries. I was just curious as the words linear and crossfit can't exist in the same zip code due to their nature. :cool:

BTW you can delete your own posts.... I think.

WillBrink
03-04-09, 17:47
Didn't see that at the time. No worries. I was just curious as the words linear and crossfit can't exist in the same zip code due to their nature. :cool:

Personally, I think, like any program, it has its pros and its cons. A lengthy review by Chris Shugart here:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sex_news_sports_funny/the_truth_about_crossfit

A shorter critique by Coach Poliquin here:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/question_of_strength_vol_47




BTW you can delete your own posts.... I think.

I couldn't find the option myself.

ZDL
03-04-09, 18:16
Personally, I think, like any program, it has its pros and its cons. A lengthy review by Chris Shugart here:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sex_news_sports_funny/the_truth_about_crossfit

A shorter critique by Coach Poliquin here:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/question_of_strength_vol_47





I couldn't find the option myself.

I've read those before and the logic is flawed due to a lack of education about crossfit on the part of the author. It's normal. I've gotten over the fact people don't understand it. At first I couldn't fathom how it didn't make sense to individuals9 but I understand now that just part of the game. I've been in this game a while and I never use my personal results as an advertising pitch. I point to the many people I have turned onto crossfit and their results. From my mother to the swat guy, to the 19 year old baseball player to my 70 year old grandma. All of them, and more, have excelled in this program due to its scalability and dynamic nature. Now, without nutrition, the plateau, or wall, will invariably be smacked head on. That's another discussion and another thread. I have had people quit crossfit because they felt it was too demanding (they didn't understand scalability) only to continue their failing injury prone streak at their local globo gym.

The needs of our terrorist hunters are the exact same as the soccer mom. Simply at different levels. They both need to get up, get down, push, pull, jump, etc. Crossfit hits all of those areas at their respective levels. Trust me, my grandma isn't doing the full Murph......... yet.

Crossfit is broad and general. Nature punishes the specialist. So, inside the specialty of the specialist (specific), yes they should perform better than the crossfitter. No one has argued that ever. However, outside the specialty of the specialist,(general) the crossfiter by design will come out on top.

A shorter way of explaining, We do the thing you specialize at, almost as good and everything else a whole lot better. That's the idea anyway.

The pyramid of fitness is as follows from most important to least important:

Nutrition-metabolic conditioning-gymnastics-weightlifting and throwing-sport

The specialist v. crossfitter debate gets settled with the above.

Crossfit hits the following 10 general physical skills- Cardiovascular/respiratory endurance-stamina-strength-flexibility-power-speed-coordination-agility-balance-accuracy.

I've yet, in many years, heard a legitimate gripe/concern/negative to crossfit that stands. I'm not saying it's not out there... Just haven't heard it yet. Education, research, and the fact that the results of crossfit are measurable, observable, and repeatable across broad time and modal domains, makes it tough to develop one.

The best part about all of this: It sounds as if I'm giving a sales pitch but its all free. :cool:

WillBrink
03-04-09, 18:28
The best part about all of this: It sounds as if I'm giving a sales pitch but its all free. :cool:

Nah, I think you made fair comments, some of which I agree with and some I don't, but you didn't foam at the mouth as some seem to if there is even a hint of criticism about the system. I think Poliquin, being perhaps the most successful coaches on the planet, who I know well, makes some legit points. You will also note Sugart finishes his article with:

"Is CrossFit the only training system you'll ever need, as its founder and its most enthusiastic members claim? No. And most CrossFitters I've communicated with will acknowledge that. Is CrossFit a fun, challenging, effective training method? Yes ... but only if the benefits it offers are the ones you seek. As long as its goals match your goals, I recommend it."

So, he too is clearly not anti crossfit per se. Anyway, I didn't intend to start a crossfit debate and ended up here due to my thread posting mistake.

Carry on! :D

ZDL
03-04-09, 18:43
Nah, I think you made fair comments, some of which I agree with and some I don't, but you didn't foam at the mouth as some seem to if there is even a hint of criticism about the system. I think Poliquin, being perhaps the most successful coaches on the planet, who I know well, makes some legit points. You will also note Sugart finishes his article with:

"Is CrossFit the only training system you'll ever need, as its founder and its most enthusiastic members claim? No. And most CrossFitters I've communicated with will acknowledge that. Is CrossFit a fun, challenging, effective training method? Yes ... but only if the benefits it offers are the ones you seek. As long as its goals match your goals, I recommend it."

So, he too is clearly not anti crossfit per se. Anyway, I didn't intend to start a crossfit debate and ended up here due to my thread posting mistake.

Carry on! :D

Crossfiters will never (should never) point to it as the end all of everything. (we maybe an arrogant bunch but I like to believe a sampling size will show we are educated and willing to learn more) It's the bridge, or foundation if you will, to the specialty you desire.. If you desire or need one. Being LE a broad and general form of fitness is exactly what I need. Climbing over fences, up ropes, jumping over a car, crawling under a car, fighting for 2 minutes, etc. All of these things demand differently on my body. The neuro-endocrine response crossfit illicits is the same as in these real life scenarios. Training how I live sorta thing. It's scary how well the training simulates the physical and emotional stress of my real world demands.

I definitely wouldn't tell the PGA pro to stop doing golf specific exercises all together or the cyclist to stop riding.

In the case of the 19 y/o baseball player, he had some skills in areas but was unable to grow beyond a certain point. A familiar state for anyone who has set foot in a gym. When I tuned him on to crossfit he said it broke down everything and planted him solidly in a broad idea of fitness. Once he had this foundation he went back to his specialty (sport) skills and found they were even MORE effective now that he had a fitness base. He was amazed the coloration between climbing a rope and throwing a baseball or C&J and exploding off the mound. etc.

I bounce everything off the "is it measurable, observable and repeatable over broad time and modal domains" filter. If it works, it's in my life.

WillBrink
03-04-09, 19:10
Climbing over fences, up ropes, jumping over a car, crawling under a car, fighting for 2 minutes, etc. All of these things demand differently on my body. The neuro-endocrine response crossfit illicits is the same as in these real life scenarios. Training how I live sorta thing.

Agreed. See my article Practical Applied Stress Training For Tactical Law Enforcement here for similar thought process:

http://www.brinkzone.com/articledetails.php?aid=137&acatid=3

There are also vids and other info of interest at URL in sig line if interested.

Bpurcg19
03-05-09, 08:25
Im finally back on the crossfit train after a long 12 week layoff from a broken vertebrate (from crossfit.. and my stupidity).

Now I am working back into and loving it all over again like I did when I first started. Once again, my times suck and my strength is not where it used to be but its all a process and soon I will be back to where I was and move up from there.

I love how challenging crossfit is and I enjoy the competition. I am having to do some isolation exercises to get my atrophied muscles back in shape but the crossfit progression is coming along better because of those globo gym exercises.

Crossfit is for me, the best program and the most rewarding.

-B

Steve_Morrison
03-05-09, 18:36
The needs of our terrorist hunters are the exact same as the soccer mom. Simply at different levels.


Um, no.

PS
Crossfit is a great program.

ZDL
03-05-09, 18:39
Um, no.

PS
Crossfit is a great program.

Really? Both don't need to get up, get down, pick up, push, pull, jump, etc? What does one do that the other doesn't? Fly? :confused:

Outlander Systems
03-05-09, 21:11
Crossfit is the shit.

The diet is what's a PITA. I'd be a super stud if I'd lay off the trash grub.

ROCKET20_GINSU
03-09-09, 02:01
I'm a big crossfit fan and believer. I've been doing it for the last 6 months and I couldn't be happier. I even did my first Muscle Up a couple of months ago. I've found that because its such high intensity and some of the weights (as RX'd) is pretty challenging, its easy to over do it a bit and strain something...but that can be true of many things.

I love that I can get a great workout in 20-30 min, the WODs change constantly, and in my opinion it is a really functional workout system. Additionally, I don't really like running, but doing crossfit has maintained my ability to run pretty well. If you have a weakness crossfit will find it, exploit it, and make you pay for it =) BTW, the exercises I hate the most are thrusters and burpees, but thats me lol!

I've done the run really far and do lots of pushups thing for a long time and I find crossfit very refreshing. Plus, its alot more fun to do with a buddy! I love the challenge and difficulty. Every workout affords the possibility of hitting a new personal best. I love Cindy, Fight gone bad, Helen and the filthy fifty!

I'm not sold on the neutral long term effects of your joints, but thats something I'll figure out in time, and is only of the only downsides I see to this program.

I'm certainly not suggesting that if you are a specialized athlete, drop all your training and work crossfit exclusively...but crossfit is a terrific base as others have noted, and there's nothing to say that you can't add more specialized training as required.

For those who don't believe you can get a great workout in 20 min try Cindy:
Max rounds in 20 min
5 pullups
10 pushups
15 squats

My PR so far is 21 rounds at 5'000 ft...YMMV

Enjoy!

GU

iroc_dis
03-15-09, 08:20
I love Cindy, Fight gone bad, Helen and the filthy fifty!

I'll have to try those. My favorite so far has been the Murph hero workout. All one timed event. Start with a mile run then do any combination of 100 pullups, 200 pushups, and 300 body squats, then finish with another mile run. Every second of that sucks.

I've found that its hard for me to keep up with WODs since I don't have access to rings anywhere.

Yojimbo
03-15-09, 10:45
I love doing Crossfit style workouts but I would classify my training more as a hybrid style.

I use a a lot of Ross Enamait's workouts along with Crossfit WOD's, weight training, trail running, C2 rowing, elliptical and recently started including DDP's Yoga for Regular Guys.

A lot of variety keeps the training interesting!

texasfrog
03-15-09, 18:23
Crossfit is a great way to work out, and I still do the WOD's a couple times a week, but I have personally seen many guys (including myself) injured from the workouts.
This is due to multiple reasons; alpha male never lose attitudes, losing form because of severe muscle failure, and competing for max repetitions and/or time based evolutions.
Once you start losing form in crossfit, you lose the infrastructure in which your body holds the weight, once you loose the infrastructure you get hurt because muscle/skeletal groups are compensating for other anatomy that has reached failure.
This is the nature of the beast, the dynamics of of Crossfit, completing a hard core workout within an average of 20-30 minutes.
So for those of you that are just starting your Crossfit adventure, remember that yes it is a very competitive way to work out with others, but do not loose your form because YOU WILL get hurt (it's not a question of if, it's when and how bad). Don't sacrifice form for that one extra pullup, box jump, muscle up, ect. It's just bad judgement. Keep your form and don't forget to stretch before and after!!!
Hope this helps...

ZDL
03-15-09, 18:39
J.T. was great. Didn't time (forgot) but felt like I flew it through better than the last time I hit it.

Oh and ring dips suck.

ROCKET20_GINSU
03-15-09, 22:07
I'll have to try those. My favorite so far has been the Murph hero workout. All one timed event. Start with a mile run then do any combination of 100 pullups, 200 pushups, and 300 body squats, then finish with another mile run. Every second of that sucks.

I've found that its hard for me to keep up with WODs since I don't have access to rings anywhere.

I did murph last when I was over in the sandbox a couple of months ago and I couldn't agree more. It was 40 min +/- straight of suck, it was great =) I've served with a few of the guys who unfortunately have had hero workouts named after them, hero workout are always tough but I enjoy the pain and I enjoy remembering...

Stay Safe,
GU

iroc_dis
03-16-09, 10:46
I did murph last when I was over in the sandbox a couple of months ago and I couldn't agree more. It was 40 min +/- straight of suck, it was great =) I've served with a few of the guys who unfortunately have had hero workouts named after them, hero workout are always tough but I enjoy the pain and I enjoy remembering...

Stay Safe,
GU

Yea, I only just recently got a weighted vest. I had been doing it "vest free" and it blew. Previously I think I was in the 45-55min range but with an extra 20 lbs on, I doubt I'll be able to get under an hour. Murph isn't one that I would do on a regular basis, but it is good maybe once every other month or so just for a change of pace. Plus its fun as hell if you do it with someone

ROCKET20_GINSU
03-16-09, 20:00
Crossfit is a great way to work out, and I still do the WOD's a couple times a week, but I have personally seen many guys (including myself) injured from the workouts.


I couldn't agree more! It is a more "high" risk exercise regime but it is addicting! the push to get that 1 more round or cut a minute off your PR makes it tough to control your form at times...Learning from experience =)

I've had to relearn my limits so I don't hurt myself as well.

GU

ZDL
03-21-09, 06:49
double

ZDL
03-21-09, 06:59
Someone pissed him off.

For time:
225 pound Deadlift, 21 reps
Run 800 meters
225 pound Deadlift, 15 reps
Run 800 meters
225 pound Deadlift, 9 reps
Run 800 meters

WTFing Hell. See you in 3hrs....... :mad:

ROCKET20_GINSU
03-30-09, 17:56
I did that one yesterday...FYI, I usually work 1-2 cycles behind so I can see whats coming next and plan accordingly =). My lower back feels..."nice".

Looking forward to Linda today!

GU

ZDL
03-30-09, 19:03
I did that one yesterday...FYI, I usually work 1-2 cycles behind so I can see whats coming next and plan accordingly =). My lower back feels..."nice".

Looking forward to Linda today!

GU

Wuss. "plan ahead" LOL. If I do that I'll find some reason to get out of it. I don't look at it till right before I start. I'll stew about it all day otherwise. Anticipation sucks. :D

Rock on w/ linda today!

Bigboote
04-09-09, 09:11
ever since i switched my S&C routines to crossfit several years ago, there was a dramatic improvement in my performance in MMA, BJJ, and muay thai class. i remember after 2 months of crossfit, some of they guys i sparred with asked why i wasn't getting tired anymore. i hadn't realized my sudden improvement until they started mentioning it. stayed with it ever since.

the last 6-8 months, i've gravitated to rosstraining, but i still work fran, angie, and the other bitches real often.

Yojimbo
04-09-09, 12:43
Bigboote,

A big + 1 for Ross Enamait! To me Ross's stuff is real hardcore cross training and conditioning without all the hype and kool-aid...;)

ZDL
04-10-09, 04:10
CFT... I'm...uhhh... still sore from Monday as I did GHD instead of situps on accident. The 5k sucked after the walking lunges as well but man I flew through it to my surprise and glee.

WillBrink
04-10-09, 08:20
Bigboote,

A big + 1 for Ross Enamait! To me Ross's stuff is real hardcore cross training and conditioning without all the hype and kool-aid...;)

Agreed. His book Never Gymless I recommend to people all the time.

ZDL
07-13-09, 00:55
***********

Hobbes
08-14-09, 10:22
Hey guys, been away from this site for a while....

Anyways, I've been an AD Marine for over 9 years now, and I've found Crossfit to be the absolute best program there is for military. I also like it because it's easy to tailor to specific needs....slow runner? Well, you can cherry pick more running WODs or do Crossfit endurance....weak? Do Crossfit with strength bias (that's what I do, extra squats deadlifts etc...).

Being older than almost all my Marines, I'm still in better shape and routinely destroy them whenever we have unit pt.

It's a great program.

Fight gone bad kicked my ass yesterday....332 points though!

WillBrink
08-14-09, 10:32
Hey guys, been away from this site for a while....

Anyways, I've been an AD Marine for over 9 years now, and I've found Crossfit to be the absolute best program there is for military. I also like it because it's easy to tailor to specific needs....

To play devils advocate, is it CF then at that point or just good old cross training? My two questions about CF are: (1) what's original about it? (2) what training effects can be had from it that can't be had from another version of cross training?

In the 80s, I used to do what people called giant sets with sprints. I would so something like rack pulls, dips, leg press, and sprints in the parking lot. Should I have named it "Barbie" and gotten rich?

These days, I will do chins (real chins, not the "kipping" things favored by some CF followers), incline dumbell presses, and front squats for higher reps with minimal/no rest and 5 mins of HIIT on a stair stepper, for 3 cycles.

Or, I will do Prowler pushing, rope climbing, and tire flipping.

Is this Cross Fit? No, it's cross training, which has been around forever. Cross Training has its place for sure, CF - which is 100% another version of cross training - can also have its place, but there's no doubt in my mind there's better choices for cross training that does not include high rep O lifts (often done in terrible form to boot), kipping pull ups, etc.

Sure, if CF gets more people involved with exercise, great, I'm all for it, but every time you get a group of people to do something, they seem to form into a mob of who will then claim their "system" is the only one true system (visions of HIT here...) and make it unbearable for the rest of the world who has to deal with this dogma leading detractors to call it "CultFit."

I'm a fan of cross training for sure, a fan of CF for some people (depending on goals, etc) but have the same issues and reservation as pretty much every major strength and conditioning out there has about some aspects and or claims of CF.

Hobbes
08-14-09, 11:08
To play devils advocate, is it CF then at that point or just good old cross training? My two questions about CF are: (1) what's original about it? (2) what training effects can be had from it that can't be had from another version of cross training?

In the 80s, I used to do what people called giant sets with sprints. I would so something like rack pulls, dips, leg press, and sprints in the parking lot. Should I have named it "Barbie" and gotten rich?

These days, I will do chins (real chins, not the "kipping" things favored by some CF followers), incline dumbell presses, and front squats for higher reps with minimal/no rest and 5 mins of HIIT on a stair stepper, for 3 cycles.

Or, I will do Prowler pushing, rope climbing, and tire flipping.

Is this Cross Fit? No, it's cross training, which has been around forever. Cross Training has its place for sure, CF - which is 100% another version of cross training - can also have its place, but there's no doubt in my mind there's better choices for cross training that does not include high rep O lifts (often done in terrible form to boot), kipping pull ups, etc.

Sure, if CF gets more people involved with exercise, great, I'm all for it, but every time you get a group of people to do something, they seem to form into a mob of who will then claim their "system" is the only one true system (visions of HIT here...) and make it unbearable for the rest of the world who has to deal with this dogma leading detractors to call it "CultFit."

I'm a fan of cross training for sure, a fan of CF for some people (depending on goals, etc) but have the same issues and reservation as pretty much every major strength and conditioning out there has about some aspects and or claims of CF.

Well, yes I would say it's still Crossfit if it follows the Crossfit methodology of varied, fuctional fitness. What's orginal about it? Well, nothing reall except it's the first time that this type of training has really been written down with good instruction, videos etc...with communities started and what not. It's more AVAILABLE is what's original about it. If you were doing this kind of stuff in the 80s you should have maybe started a gym and started teaching it ;) (and yeah, maybe you SHOULD have named it Barbie and gotten rich, why not?)

There is nothing wrong with the occasional high rep Oly lifts. If form is bad, then it's the individuals fault- not Crossfit. And to be fair, form doesn't ALWAYS have to be absolutely perfect, especially with low weight. It DOES have to be good enough to reach desired training effect and to not cause injury. For example- A guy is doing high rep cleans with 135. His back is straight, but he begins his second pull a little early because he's getting tired. Well, he isn't going to get hurt doing this.

Kipping pullups....I see a lot of hate towards these and I'm not sure why. Kipping pulls are simply a different version of regular pulls. It's not cheating. It just creates a different stimulus- it is more of an aerobic exercise vs. the pure strength of deadhangs (for the record, Crossfit also includes weighted pulls and deadhangs in it's workouts).

I can do 45 kipping pulls, about 30 deadhangs and pull with 115# strapped on a flak jacket, so I think Crossfit methodology on pullups works pretty well. YMMV.

WillBrink
08-14-09, 14:23
Well, yes I would say it's still Crossfit if it follows the Crossfit methodology of varied, fuctional fitness. What's orginal about it? Well, nothing reall except it's the first time that this type of training has really been written down with good instruction, videos etc...with communities started and what not. It's more AVAILABLE is what's original about it.

I have no issues with that and it's a fair point. CF is a specific system/program people can follow that exposes them to compound movements, functional movements, high intensity exercise, etc, where they may not have been exposed to it before, but CF didn't invent any of it. Regardless, that's all good to me. Some times, a new program might not be 100% original per se, but the "inventor" puts a new twist on it that makes it more accessible to people, which is what CF has done for cross training, and getting people out of gyms using glute machines, and back to "real world" functional stuff. That's what I see as the major plus about CF.


If you were doing this kind of stuff in the 80s you should have maybe started a gym and started teaching it ;) (and yeah, maybe you SHOULD have named it Barbie and gotten rich, why not?)

In some respects i did, having been published in almost every major fitness/bbing related publication at one time or another, but even my ego wouldn't let me pretend I invented cross training. :cool:


There is nothing wrong with the occasional high rep Oly lifts. If form is bad, then it's the individuals fault- not Crossfit. And to be fair, form doesn't ALWAYS have to be absolutely perfect, especially with low weight. It DOES have to be good enough to reach desired training effect and to not cause injury. For example- A guy is doing high rep cleans with 135. His back is straight, but he begins his second pull a little early because he's getting tired. Well, he isn't going to get hurt doing this.

On that I can't agree with you, and agree with Poliquin and many other noted coaches, O lifts "should be used to develop power. If you want to develop muscular endurance, you should use simpler movements."


Kipping pullups....I see a lot of hate towards these and I'm not sure why. Kipping pulls are simply a different version of regular pulls. It's not cheating. It just creates a different stimulus- it is more of an aerobic exercise vs. the pure strength of deadhangs (for the record, Crossfit also includes weighted pulls and deadhangs in it's workouts).

I can do 45 kipping pulls, about 30 deadhangs and pull with 115# strapped on a flak jacket, so I think Crossfit methodology on pullups works pretty well. YMMV.

I don't consider them "cheating" per se. For some young guy who weighs say 150lbs or something, it may not be an issue, but for people heavier, older, etc, I consider the movement a shoulder injury in the making. For example, i'm 44, 5'7" and weight a tad under 200lbs. That movement would rip my arms off...I cringe every time I see a vid of people doing them. Not all coaches feel that way BTW.

Secondly, it's an exercise that does not have it's focus on quality, but on quantity; it favors momentum vs actual muscular contraction*, and there's no benefit to them above "real" pull ups and chin ups, but sure, they are different... I don't see the purpose of them and I feel they expose the shoulder to injury where there's no additional benefits to the movement. Ergo, the risk to benefit of the movement is not there in my opinion.

I think it's an exercise to avoid. I do understand, and respect that you may not agree and find they are fine for you, so don't take offense brother. My issues are similar to what other noted strength and conditioning coaches have expressed about CF, and the fact that many followers of CF do in fact claim it's the be all end all program and no other is needed, etc, etc, and why detractors of CF call it "CultFit."

If you view it as another tool in the tool box, and as you said, an easy to access system of cross training, then I am totally with you there. Those that think it's some form of new revolutionary training system, has not flaws, and is the be all end all program no matter what your goals, are the people I have issues with.

A look see at their forums shows you the kind of blind following and cult like attitude of these people, and that's a major turn off to me and others.


* = yes, some exercises benefit from, and require, momentum to be done correctly.

Hobbes
08-14-09, 14:34
I tend to like the high rep Oly lifts on occasion personally...and I agree with you that they should be used primarily for power, which is why the Oly lifts are usually "normal" low rep lifts and high reps are only used occasionally.
Regardless, again you could sub front squats for cleans maybe, or whatever you want...it's tailorable...

Can't disagree with the pullup point you made, and everyone is different. If you "feel" the possibility of shoulder injury then by all means- don't do it. In fact I never do the GHD situps because I feel strain in my back....again, IMO it goes to the nice thing about Xfit being that it can be tailored. (I actually also don't like fast deadlifts, it hurts my hip flexors so I always do it slow, even if it's a workout for time)

When I do pullups, I slow myself before full extension so I don't strain the shoulders, otherwise I totally hear where you're coming from. I'm about 5' 9" and 185 so I can't let my bodyweight slam my shoulders either...

Again the point about fast kipping pullups is different than the point of deadhangs. It's more about endurance and aerobic work than pure strength. Form DOES matter though as you still need full extension and chin over bar. Further, kipping also works core muscles to include abs and hip flexors. The first time I did a bunch my abs were incredibly sore.

ZDL
08-14-09, 16:31
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WillBrink
08-14-09, 16:53
I hope you don't take any of this personal as I don't consider you a bad guy. It does raise an eyebrow when out of the gate you have been consistently negative about a program with such a reputation.

It seems to me, one can say 90% positive things about what people strongly believe in 10% negative, and people with then accuse you of being negative. I don't think you are reading closely if you think I am being "consistently negative." It should be quite clear to anyone reading my comments with an objective view, I am clear I think CF has it's benefits, and it's flaws. I have outlined what I consider some flaws, and people who have considerable knowledge and experience in this area have expressed pretty much the same opinions.



It further raises the eyebrow when you have a business in the same market. More evidence exists to produce a healthy curiosity as to your overall negative approach to this program and why you continually jump in this thread with complaints as to it's "originality" etc. as if it detracts from the programs results. I would present, if you are a fan of fitness and peoples health, you should be highly encouraging and supportive to those in any program with such a reputation as crossfit.

See above comments. I assure you, CF does not have a good reputation among many, especially those in the coaching and or exercise phys community. If you wish to make the assumption it's simply competition, jealousy, etc, that they take that position, that's up to you. All my points are valid here, and CF is simply cross training. Nothing more, nothing less. Good support, structured workouts, a community, etc, as you said, and that's great. I simply don't like the dogma of some of the followers and I don't like some of the exercise choices and so on.

I will remove myself from the thread now as my objectivity and motives has been questioned, and I hold no animosity that you or others have raised the issue as it's understandable.

Thanx! ;)

ZDL
08-14-09, 17:15
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WillBrink
08-14-09, 17:36
If you have an intelligent scientific article or seminar you could point me to as to why CF is flawed, I would absolutely love to read/hear it. I'm a geek for technical information:

Here's some reading that I think does a good job of covering the pros and cons of CF. Note, 2 of the 3 end in generally recommending CF and even the 3 (Poliquins write up) does not end with real negative comments per se. The first is quite long, but very well done. The second is from a guy who went an got a cert. The third from Poliquin.

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sex_news_sports_funny/the_truth_about_crossfit

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_investigative/crossed_up_by_crossfit

Poliquins take on CF:

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/question_of_strength_vol_47

I'm not going to get into a pissing match on the above, so if you do feel the authors missed the mark, I would contact them. If you feel it works for you, great. I will say however, I would not tell Larry Vickers his opinion of X shooting system was BS, because my experience/knowledge/creds base compared to his is in that area is not worth mentioning, so I would stay in my lane there. When some one like Poliquin speaks, he does so with a knowledge/experience/cred level few posses, and his word and opinion deserve the weight they carry and those who don't have it should also be respectful and stay in their lane unless they they are on par with, and have the knowledge and experience there.

ZDL
08-14-09, 17:49
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WillBrink
08-14-09, 18:06
I might have read these before as the url looks familiar but I will read them tonight. Have no doubt if I have questions about the substance in the articles, I will ask them here since your provided the link. I hope you will oblige with a response.

I will do my best, but at the same time, I can't/won't speak for the authors.


Interesting the strongest opposition to CF you've provided aren't really opposition according to you......... :cool:

I don't think there is any reason to have "strong opposition" to CF. The authors make it clear what CF is, what it's not, and what the pros and cons are, and where CF goes wrong in some important areas.

I tend to agree with the majority of their assessments about it's pros and cons which I also summed up above in the prior thread as:

"CF is a specific system/program people can follow that exposes them to compound movements, functional movements, high intensity exercise, etc, where they may not have been exposed to it before, but CF didn't invent any of it. Regardless, that's all good to me. Some times, a new program might not be 100% original per se, but the "inventor" puts a new twist on it that makes it more accessible to people, which is what CF has done for cross training, and getting people out of gyms using glute machines, and back to "real world" functional stuff. That's what I see as the major plus about CF."

Does that seem overly negative to you? Does not to me.

ZDL
08-14-09, 18:14
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WillBrink
08-14-09, 18:45
1st: Funny and fair. I have no problem with anything in it. Including the parts on Glassman.

2nd: Same

3rd: Poliquins concerns are based on his model for success which is different than crossfit's. There will always be differences in opinions when the goal is the same but the paths are different. Is poliquin's path better? Let's say it is.. Where is his program? His support system? His community? To sit back and say "I know better" while maybe true, but provide little to no information or support on the "better path" is compared to the nearest model........

The concerns, complaints, etc. from crossfit seem to be:

1. Glassman being a dick
2. Perceived danger in the workouts
3. Ignorance of the science.

Dealing with them:

1. So what? Don't deal with him.
2. If you don't have the necessary skills or support to do something safely. you will get hurt. Take a 12 year old who has never seen a gun before and hand him one. What's going to happen? It's a bit disingenuous to make the statement: "Crossfit is dangerous" when you consider the totality of the situation. I always ask, "relative to what?"
3. There is a lot of strong science backing up crossfit. The overall methodology is sound, even poliquin agrees.

Until Poliquin comes out with a support model that mirrors crossfit, it seems to CF is the best thing going. Wouldn't you agree?

I think the guy who went and got a cert- Bryan Krahn- and wrote up his experience summed it up well, which as you can see, is is net positive in its assessments:

As I left, freshly certified as a CrossFit Level 1 instructor, I came to these conclusions:

1. The system clearly has value, but how much value depends on your goals. As a one-stop fitness and conditioning system, CrossFit is an excellent choice. The workouts are challenging and competitive, and jack up the heart rate deceptively fast. The fact that they rely upon basic, functional lifts is a plus as well.

2. My absolute favorite thing about CrossFit is that it forces people to work hard. A lot of lifters don't work nearly as hard in the gym as they think they do.

3. No matter what anyone tells you, you'll never get truly strong doing CrossFit. Sure, you might get stronger than you are now, but if maximal strength is your goal, keep shopping. If you don't believe me, email Dave Tate and ask him what his Fran time is.

4. You won't get bigger doing CrossFit, which could be absolutely fine if your goal is fat loss or overall conditioning. But you might look bigger, if you have a lot of muscle beneath your fat and CrossFit helps you burn the fat off.

5. Mixed martial artists and military personnel — especially members of elite special-forces units — should definitely do something a lot like CrossFit. There are probably ways to make it more specific to their needs as athletes and warriors, but the idea is exactly right for what they do.

6. Many bodybuilders could benefit from occasional CrossFit workouts. The system is so challenging, and so different from traditional paradigms, it might be a perfect shock to someone in the body-part-training rut. Plus, for those in a cutting phase, one or two CrossFit workouts a week could be a great fat-loss tool.

7. The random program design doesn't make long-term training sense. As noted by Alwyn Cosgrove in the earlier TMUSCLE article, potential overexposure of the shoulder joint to frequent heavy loads and high volumes is a real concern. While hardcore CrossFitters may scoff, I'd like to check back with them after a few more years of CrossFitting.

8. The notion of CrossFit slop is potentially injurious, especially for those new to Olympic lifts. I just can't think of a good justification for it.

9. A Quarter Pounder with Cheese is shit, no matter how Zone-friendly its macros turn out to be.

ZDL
08-14-09, 18:54
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Hobbes
08-14-09, 19:03
I would say most of those are fair, except #7 been doing Crossfit for almost 2 years with no ill effects. Time will tell, who knows? Maybe I'll have to cut back sometime.

#8- I hear this concern, but have personally never seen anyone have issues.

#9- That's why the zone sucks IMO (no offense to those that like it, but it never made sense to me) plus I can never weigh meals.

Meat, veggies no processed carbs is the way to go IMO.

#3- is true for sure. A Crossfitter will be strong, but not as strong as a powerlifter. But the crossfitter will destroy a pure lifter at pretty much anything else...depends on goals...overall fitness = crossfit, you want to bench a house? = something else.
Of course a track runner will outrun a crossfitter anyday...only then to be destroyed by the crossfitter at anything strength related....

WillBrink
08-14-09, 19:07
3. That's a relative comment. What is "truly strong"?

I assume he means if your focus is on strength development purely, you are best off using programs from people like Simmons, Tate, Wendler, etc who produce very strong people.


4. That's sorta the point. Size, for most, is counter productive. Unless of course you are in the sport of bodybuilding.

His major point being, if size is your focus, look elsewhere. Many CF proponents (read first articles) including Glassmen have stated CF was better for increasing LBM then bodybuilding training, which is of course total BS.


7. I've wondered a similar thing before. There is something to be said for long term concerns about abusing one's body. There was a study released not too long ago about the mortality rate of those in shape vs. those with a little chub. The chubs seemed to outlive the muscled. Do you know what study I'm referring to.

There are ways of training that reduce the risks of injuries, and improve performance, some of which I have posted on the forums here.


9. Shut up..... :o (guilty of making that compromise more than once :o )

They should avoid giving nutritional advice altogether in my opinion when they recommend those foods as well as others he talked about.

Hobbes
08-14-09, 19:14
They should avoid giving nutritional advice altogether in my opinion when they recommend those foods as well as others he talked about.

To be fair, there are some zone weirdos who eat crap, but at zone proportions, but the majority talk about eating zone with healthy food (paleo/zone). very few advocate eating cheeseburgers.

Here's what Crossfit has to say about nutrition, and I will be surprised if you disagree: (BTW You are correct, about size, those seeking pure size increase need to look elsewhere)


The CrossFit dietary prescription is as follows:
Protein should be lean and varied and account for about 30% of your total caloric load.
Carbohydrates should be predominantly low-glycemic and account for about 40% of your total caloric load.
Fat should be predominantly monounsaturated and account for about 30% of your total caloric load.
Calories should be set at between .7 and 1.0 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass depending on your activity level. The .7 figure is for moderate daily workout loads and the 1.0 figure is for the hardcore athlete.

What Should I Eat?
In plain language, base your diet on garden vegetables, especially greens, lean meats, nuts and seeds, little starch, and no sugar. That's about as simple as we can get. Many have observed that keeping your grocery cart to the perimeter of the grocery store while avoiding the aisles is a great way to protect your health. Food is perishable. The stuff with long shelf life is all suspect. If you follow these simple guidelines you will benefit from nearly all that can be achieved through nutrition.

The Caveman or Paleolithic Model for Nutrition
Modern diets are ill suited for our genetic composition. Evolution has not kept pace with advances in agriculture and food processing resulting in a plague of health problems for modern man. Coronary heart disease, diabetes, cancer, osteoporosis, obesity and psychological dysfunction have all been scientifically linked to a diet too high in refined or processed carbohydrate. Search "Google" for Paleolithic nutrition, or diet. The return is extensive, compelling, and fascinating. The Caveman model is perfectly consistent with the CrossFit prescription.

What Foods Should I Avoid?
Excessive consumption of high-glycemic carbohydrates is the primary culprit in nutritionally caused health problems. High glycemic carbohydrates are those that raise blood sugar too rapidly. They include rice, bread, candy, potato, sweets, sodas, and most processed carbohydrates. Processing can include bleaching, baking, grinding, and refining. Processing of carbohydrates greatly increases their glycemic index, a measure of their propensity to elevate blood sugar.

What is the Problem with High-Glycemic Carbohydrates?
The problem with high-glycemic carbohydrates is that they give an inordinate insulin response. Insulin is an essential hormone for life, yet acute, chronic elevation of insulin leads to hyperinsulinism, which has been positively linked to obesity, elevated cholesterol levels, blood pressure, mood dysfunction and a Pandora's box of disease and disability. Research "hyperinsulinism" on the Internet. There's a gold mine of information pertinent to your health available there. The CrossFit prescription is a low-glycemic diet and consequently severely blunts the insulin response.

Caloric Restriction and Longevity
Current research strongly supports the link between caloric restriction and an increased life expectancy. The incidence of cancers and heart disease sharply decline with a diet that is carefully limited in controlling caloric intake. “Caloric Restriction” is another fruitful area for Internet search. The CrossFit prescription is consistent with this research.
The CrossFit prescription allows a reduced caloric intake and yet still provides ample nutrition for rigorous activity.

ZDL
08-14-09, 19:38
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DevL
08-21-09, 14:35
To me crossfit sucks. Its for bored yuppies or guys that hate cardio or dont have goals for their endurance. Thats great because exercise is boring.

If I want to get big and strong I lift to get big and strong. If I want to have better endurance I run and do more wrestling and sparring. I really dont care how many bad for reps of X exercise I can do. Lots of reps means no muscle growth too.

I just dont see what it does other than help bored recreational lifters add more cardio to their lifts... I cant gain any strength from crossfit and neither can any other experienced lifter. If I want more endurance its specifically sparring and wrestling cardio related and I get the best results from doing that... not swapping over to a less efficient lifting routine.

I guess I just have never understood why people want to make lifting weights into some form of training other than what it is suited for... which is growing bigger, stronger muscles.

Hobbes
08-21-09, 15:00
To me crossfit sucks. Its for bored yuppies or guys that hate cardio or dont have goals for their endurance. Thats great because exercise is boring.

If I want to get big and strong I lift to get big and strong. If I want to have better endurance I run and do more wrestling and sparring. I really dont care how many bad for reps of X exercise I can do. Lots of reps means no muscle growth too.

I just dont see what it does other than help bored recreational lifters add more cardio to their lifts... I cant gain any strength from crossfit and neither can any other experienced lifter. If I want more endurance its specifically sparring and wrestling cardio related and I get the best results from doing that... not swapping over to a less efficient lifting routine.

I guess I just have never understood why people want to make lifting weights into some form of training other than what it is suited for... which is growing bigger, stronger muscles.

Spoken like someone who hasn't given it a chance.

ETA: and most people WILL get stronger, unless you were previously a power or oly lifter. The majority of people will build muscle and get stronger (while still being quick)

Consider this: not everyone's goals are the same as yours. Getting bigger for me doesn't help because I still have to be able to run. Building endurance doesn't do anything because I have to be able to lift a wounded buddy in full battle rattle. But what if I mix them? What if I build a moderate amount of strength and endurance at the same time? That way I can run decent distances at decent times as well as lift decent amount of weights.

Crossfit excels at this which is great for mil and LEOs.

Yuppies....haha, yeah right, tell that to all the SF, reg military and LEOs that do it.

Bpurcg19
08-21-09, 15:08
I wasn't even gonna comment to DezL bc I knew I had nothing good to say...

Hobbes said it right and saved me the time. DezL must not know what crossfit is or really ever tried it. I'd like to see his Fran time and his Murph time and see how he does on either workout.Both are at opposite ends of the spectrum and I bet he'd be smoked either way...

Oh and I'm sure some of the SOF dudes and LEO's would love to invite him to a workout to show him what crossfit really is...

-B

DevL
08-21-09, 16:05
Yes, I tried it a few years back. I immedately lost strength on my lifts when I was in shape... shure it would work if I was out of shape... but not in shape. I have a pretty light frame. To gain more strength and muscle mass I have to lift heavy. If I deviate from that I lose strength and mass, simple as that.

I also dont see any link to LEOs for crossfit vs traditional training. LEOs dont do much activity and most are horribly out of shape so any kind of fitness is exceptional for LE work. You should have seen some of the slobs in my academy. I have not been in the military so I cant really comment on that aspect.

Hobbes
08-21-09, 16:25
Yes, I tried it a few years back. I immedately lost strength on my lifts when I was in shape... shure it would work if I was out of shape... but not in shape. I have a pretty light frame. To gain more strength and muscle mass I have to lift heavy. If I deviate from that I lose strength and mass, simple as that.

I also dont see any link to LEOs for crossfit vs traditional training. LEOs dont do much activity and most are horribly out of shape so any kind of fitness is exceptional for LE work. You should have seen some of the slobs in my academy. I have not been in the military so I cant really comment on that aspect.

Well, maybe you didn't do it long enough for the strength workouts to come up, but heavy back squats, front squats, deadlifts, cleans and presses pop up regularly (of course you can supplement with more heavy lifts like I do).

As far as LEOs, I have heard of some into it, but I have more experience with the .mil. Lets see....camp Pendleton and 29 Palms have a Xfit gym, TBS (6 month officer school) adopted some XFit training, the new CFT uses elements of Crossfit (and was partially developed by Glassman, the XFit guy).
So yeah, the mil seems to think XFit is pretty much better than anything out there for military purposes.

Now some questions, you say you did XFit. How long did you do it for? Did you follow the main page? Did you go at it as intense as possible? On heavy days, did you life as heavy as possible?

Now, it may not meet your goals. That's fine, it is NOT for everyone. If your only goal is to get bigger, then it's not for you. If your goal is to get better at everything then you may want to check it out. But to say "it sucks" and that it's for yuppies is petty and immature IMO.
I am quite a bit stronger than lots of guys I know that exclusively lift weights, and I'm faster too because of Crossfit...I'm not stronger than plenty of people, but I'm pretty sure if they're a LOT stronger than me then I'm probably a LOT faster ;)