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Dave L.
12-15-06, 21:34
We all know Vltor, LMT, and Magpul stocks all look cool and they all use the same mil-spec buffer tube. My question is about the claims made by Ace Ltd. USA on their website riflestocks.com. If you don't know check it out- they say mill-spec buffer tubes are weak and can bend- and their version "the Super Heavy Duty Ace M4-7" is much stronger. They also claim that their M4 SOCOM stock is 6 times stronger than a standard A2- I'm thinking about getting a M4 SOCOM as opposed to getting a stock that looks "high speed". Any body have any advice for me on getting one of these stocks(positives & negatives) other than the fact that it can't hold batteries and it doesn't come in Flat Dark Earth(I could care less)?
From my 4 years experience on a M.C. Recon team my M4 tube never bent, even when I used it as a crutch climing the Kahuku Mts. in Hawaii-
Thanks for the info
P.S. its going on a RRA Carbine lower-

K.L. Davis
12-15-06, 22:13
We all know Vltor, LMT, and Magpul stocks all look cool and they all use the same mil-spec buffer tube. My question is about the claims made by Ace Ltd. USA on their website riflestocks.com. If you don't know check it out- they say mill-spec buffer tubes are weak and can bend- and their version "the Super Heavy Duty Ace M4-7" is much stronger. They also claim that their M4 SOCOM stock is 6 times stronger than a standard A2- I'm thinking about getting a M4 SOCOM as opposed to getting a stock that looks "high speed". Any body have any advice for me on getting one of these stocks(positives & negatives) other than the fact that it can't hold batteries and it doesn't come in Flat Dark Earth(I could care less)?
From my 4 years experience on a M.C. Recon team my M4 tube never bent, even when I used it as a crutch climing the Kahuku Mts. in Hawaii-
Thanks for the info
P.S. its going on a RRA Carbine lower-

The ability to carry batteries is a far second to the way the Crane or Vltor stock feels... After having one, a *regular* stock just feels all wrong.

Outside of a vehicle being involved, I have only seen a couple of milspec tubes break... in one case the butt was wedged into a ledge on a wall and used as a booster step to get up to the roof... so it takes some doing to break them.

It is far more likely that you will break a stock really... I know there was problems with one breaking during mortering. The Crane is a nice stock, but I am just not all warm and fuzzy with having to take the stock off the gun to get into the compartments.

Bottom line is shoulder them and see what you like... ask yourself how hard are you going to use it and what is the cost if it fails.

Dave L.
12-15-06, 22:25
I have never used a Crane or Vltor, but I heard facial hair can get cought in the teeth on the Vltor stock...any truth to that? The Crane is just more than I want to spend because I would have to get a new tube for my AR. What about the Choate...besides the $$$?

K.L. Davis
12-15-06, 22:38
I have never used a Crane or Vltor, but I heard facial hair can get cought in the teeth on the Vltor stock...any truth to that? The Crane is just more than I want to spend because I would have to get a new tube for my AR. What about the Choate...besides the $$$?

I dont have a problem with it, but then I am highly trained in the ways of Won Duk Tape.

The older Choate used its own tube and was horribly constructed... I guess the newer ones are better, I hope they were able to knock at least three or four pounds from it anyway. If you are .mil I can send you the NSN for the Vltor, in tan :cool:

Dave L.
12-15-06, 22:44
This Grasshoppa has only mastered Ju Zip Tie- Well, anothother reason I am considering the M4 SOCOM is because I want to get a .458 SOCOM upper and have heard the standard collapsable stock collapsing under pressure from the recoil...know any thing bout that?

Dave L.
12-15-06, 22:46
Ya I joined the ranks of the good ol' IRR about 6 months ago. Contractor work is calling my name!

K.L. Davis
12-15-06, 22:50
Maybe see if we can get Marty to chime in on that... I can tell you that this:

http://www.defensereview.com/stories/milkor/IMGP0432.JPG

thumps pretty well, and the stock holds up on it fine...

eta: Marty changed his email, as soon as I find the new one I will see if he can ring in on the question.

Dave L.
12-15-06, 22:56
What do you call that thing the "Dark Earth Mover"?

K.L. Davis
12-15-06, 23:02
What do you call that thing the "Dark Earth Mover"?

M32 Grenade Launcher

Dave L.
12-15-06, 23:06
Point well made- Do you know if the Vltor will fit the ACE M4-7 tube?

K.L. Davis
12-15-06, 23:12
Point well made- Do you know if the Vltor will fit the ACE M4-7 tube?

I've never actually seen one, but from looking at the picture on the website, it is an aftermarket (non milspec) part... so no, the Vltor will not fit.

Dave L.
12-15-06, 23:20
Well thanks for all the info, maybe i'll sleep on it for a few months. Just wondering- what is the best carbine stock you have used and why(if price didn't matter)?

9301
12-15-06, 23:22
I have the LMT SOPMOD stock on both my M4 and on a Remington 870 with an Argonaut Armament stock adapter and both work very well for me as patrol weapons and I'm rather hard on them. In fact I just bought a third one from Grant this past week for another project I'm working on.

Dave L.
12-15-06, 23:35
I was thinking about putting an AR stock system on my 870- I cant find Argonaut's website or a picture of one- got a pic of yours and/or can you give me a web link for one?

K.L. Davis
12-16-06, 00:09
I dont know if they are around anymore? They used to be at www.argonautarmament.com -- but that does not look so promising.

The only one that Brownells catalogs now is the Cavalry Arms (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/productdetail.aspx?p=19976) one, but it is a nice one.

Vltor makes a tube for the shotgun adapters that uses the inside of the tube as waterproof storage, it is accesable by a threaded cap from the back.

9301
12-16-06, 00:24
I was thinking about putting an AR stock system on my 870- I cant find Argonaut's website or a picture of one- got a pic of yours and/or can you give me a web link for one?

My Remington 870 is probably a collector’s item already and I didn’t build it all that long ago. Argonaut Armament stopped making their stock adapters about the same time Mesa Tactical started up. I think that was way back in 2004. Mesa Tactical’s stock adapter is most likely the closest thing to the Argonaut Armament that I’ve seen on the market. Argonaut Armament’s stock adapter appears to sit more in line with the receiver than Mesa Tactical’s and doesn’t have the rail on top.

My rail is a Knight’s Armament 870 RAS, which may have also been discontinued. If not, they are still hard to locate in stock. It took me months of looking at websites, making phone calls, and discussing what I was looking for before locating a place that had one as a returned item.

This afternoon I had it lying on the counter at the gun store I frequent because we had changed the sling to a single point like the one I have on my AR and a man walked up and said, “That is one scary looking weapon.” I told him that was exactly the intent I had when I built it and it’s even scarier when it’s pointed at you. He agreed that it would be.

I have seen a couple Argonaut Armament stock adapters on Ebay, but they went for three times as much as they originally sold for. I’m sorry I couldn’t be of more assistance.

Dave L.
12-16-06, 00:30
I have seen Mesa's products and the look pretty solid- I just really like the top rail idea. Thanks for the help.
Dave

9301
12-16-06, 00:36
I have seen Mesa's products and the look pretty solid- I just really like the top rail idea. Thanks for the help.
Dave

I have an EoTech mounted on mine and it makes getting on target quickly a snap.

K.L. Davis
12-16-06, 00:59
Just got this email from Marty, with his okay to cut n' paste:


I just broke my ACE SOCOM stock testing a 458 upper (8.5" PSD rig with a
CAS-V) - I thought the recoil felt light until I noticed the stock had done
from fully extended to fully collapsed. One of my VA based customers
reported the same issue with his ACE SOCOM stock and indeed had his beard
stuck in it due to the collapse. Folks using the 50B and 458S have reported
that mil-spec 4(?) position stocks are working just fine. I like the ACE
skeleton as it feels balanced and as a tall skinny guy is the right length
even with lots of gear

I second your comments regarding feel, I have the VLTOR clubfoot A2 and
think I like it even better than the Magpul PRS (plus the PRS is too
spendy). Forget the other stocks, the VLTOR just feels right

Dave L.
12-16-06, 01:10
LMT uses a 6 position mil-spec tube and Vltor uses a 5 position mil-spec tube- are these stocks and tubes interchangable? Why not have that 6th pos?

Dave L.
12-16-06, 01:56
Do you also have a BUIS set on that shotgun?

Resq47
12-16-06, 03:39
LMT uses a 6 position mil-spec tube and Vltor uses a 5 position mil-spec tube- are these stocks and tubes interchangable? Why not have that 6th pos?

Why have it? I'm another VLTOR believer, and converted my M93 magpul lower over as well.

rob_s
12-16-06, 03:45
I'm pretty happy with my Vltors. Yes, the gap between the stock body and storage compartment can grab a beard, but a properly placed piece of duct tape can solve that problem. I like that it just slides right on to the receiver extension on my Colts without having to change those out.

K.L. Davis
12-16-06, 10:23
LMT uses a 6 position mil-spec tube and Vltor uses a 5 position mil-spec tube- are these stocks and tubes interchangable? Why not have that 6th pos?

The extremes (short and long) are the same, the only difference is how many holes are in between... the .mil stock has two, Vltor has three and LMT has four.

I guess each figures they have enough, I mean what is practical really?

Milkman
12-16-06, 11:15
The ACE stocks have always felt like Schwin bicycle parts to me.

If you want a stock on the cheap that will fit a commercial tube try the Cav Arms standard M4 stocks. Otherwise Vltor is the best followed by the LMT SOPMOD.

9301
12-16-06, 11:16
Do you also have a BUIS set on that shotgun?
No, not yet. I’m not certain what I want to do for backups yet. I’ve got enough spare parts, holsters, and slings around here from buying things without enough research. Makes it hard to explain to the wife why I need something. “Don’t you have twelve holsters for that gun already?” “Yes, but they don’t do what this one does…or they don’t match my belt, boots, shirt, eyes…(feel free to insert any lame excuse you can think of, especially if they have worked for you. I may find a new one I haven’t used yet).” I have found it is best if I just have things shipped to my office. The sheriff doesn’t ask me those kinds of questions.

9301
12-16-06, 11:24
The extremes (short and long) are the same, the only difference is how many holes are in between... the .mil stock has two, Vltor has three and LMT has four.

I guess each figures they have enough, I mean what is practical really?
Exactly. I use one hole that matches both the gun rack and me wearing a shirt/vest and adjust it if I am wearing a coat or a tac-vest.

Dave L.
12-16-06, 12:41
Well, either everyone loves Vltor or everyone is a rep for them- guess I might have to start shaving again...

Anyone have a Vltor on an 870? Will it handle 3"mag rounds?

Dave L.
12-16-06, 12:42
No, not yet. I’m not certain what I want to do for backups yet. I’ve got enough spare parts, holsters, and slings around here from buying things without enough research. Makes it hard to explain to the wife why I need something. “Don’t you have twelve holsters for that gun already?” “Yes, but they don’t do what this one does…or they don’t match my belt, boots, shirt, eyes…(feel free to insert any lame excuse you can think of, especially if they have worked for you. I may find a new one I haven’t used yet).” I have found it is best if I just have things shipped to my office. The sheriff doesn’t ask me those kinds of questions.

Have you thought about a Troy BUIS set? or is there a problem with those?

9301
12-16-06, 13:09
Have you thought about a Troy BUIS set? or is there a problem with those?
I’ve thought about them and lots of other things like getting my riding lawn mower fixed BEFORE I need it again, paying a little extra on the mortgage, and six million other things that keeps my checking account pretty close to gasping its last breath (my savings account has been terminally ill for as long as I can remember). Right now my focus is on getting my last two college credits so I can finally graduate after thirty-one years of sporadically attending classes. Trust me, taking a statistics class is the last thing I want to do as evidenced by my having left it for last and I’d much rather be doing a thousand other things, but my wife has her boot up that soft fleshy part I sit on to get it done and it takes a fair amount of coin. I will take a look at them though, thanks.

Kisara
12-18-06, 02:15
This thumps pretty well too, or should I say used to thump pretty well...

http://i14.tinypic.com/3zlekr5.jpg

DBLTAP!556
12-18-06, 05:32
This thumps pretty well too, or should I say used to thump pretty well...

http://i14.tinypic.com/3zlekr5.jpg


Love that Hello Kitty in the background! LOL

DT!

K.L. Davis
12-18-06, 09:48
From what I am hearing, there are not issues with the M32, even when shooting the MV rounds -- and 800+ from a 40mm is just too cool.


This thumps pretty well too, or should I say used to thump pretty well...

http://i14.tinypic.com/3zlekr5.jpg

Dave L.
12-18-06, 21:02
I guess Vltor is the way to go; so my next question is should I buy the full kit? I would be putting it on my RRA which does not have the mil-spec buffer tube. Do I really need the full kit or can I buy just the buffer tube and the stock the two compartments? Are the cheek weld adapters worth it? I was thinking about getting the Basic Clubfoot Modstock, a Vltor buffer tube, and 2 Ace Thin lock rings. Anyone have any suggestions? The Ace lock rings seem like they would be easier to install than staking the standard lock ring. Opinions welcome!

Dave L.
12-18-06, 21:16
Any one tried one of those new Tactical Duostocks yet http://www.duostock.com? They look like they make sense but also look like they may raise the optics too high say if you have a SIR system or a scout rail. Any takers?

nyeti
12-18-06, 22:56
I just cannot for the life of me warm up to the duostock in any way shape or form.

As far as the Vltor and facial hair.............I have never had a problem, and anyone who has actually seen me in person will tell you that if anyone would have a facial hair issue with the Vltor, its me, and I don't.

I like the LMT SOPMOD best for feel and comfort.

I like the Vltor for a good balance of weight, comfort, ability to be changed to the mission (adaptability), and cost.

I like the Magpul PRS on my precision guns, and am anxiously awaiting the arrival of the UBR for one of my "Recce" rifles.

Be careful, there is a ton of junk out there. Take a hard look at what the people who put a lot of rounds downrange and professional trigger pullers are using.

I would HIGHLY recommend checking the back issue of SWAT magazine for Pat Rogers review of aftermarket carbine stocks. It is a great resource.

Dave L.
12-18-06, 23:14
Thanks for the part about the facial hair...since I left the ranks I've become quite shaggy.
I don't really know what you meant by "professional trigger pullers"...When I was "over there" our team worked very closely with 6 other recon teams and an SF group and every man had the stadard M4 stock(painted "high speed" tan). But I have heard that teams are starting to get Vltors...I must have just missed it.
I am skeptical about "stuff" like the duostock and even Vltor stocks too- usually any time I see the word "MODULAR", I immedately think of little parts breaking and falling off when sh$t hits the fan. I just like to keep it a little more simple than some of the ARs out there dripping with worthless crap.
I'm getting the picture though- Vltor is the way to go

K.L. Davis
12-18-06, 23:31
The "modular" part is really no more than the fact that you can set op the stock with cheek pieces or batt compartments as you like, they are far from a "pop off" item though...

The cheek pieces are handy if you wear a protective mask a lot.

LOKNLOD
12-18-06, 23:45
I would HIGHLY recommend checking the back issue of SWAT magazine for Pat Rogers review of aftermarket carbine stocks. It is a great resource.

I think that this may be the article you are referring to, posted up over at Defensive Edge's website:
SWAT article (http://www.defensive-edge.net/page1.html)

Dave L.
12-19-06, 00:22
I think that this may be the article you are referring to, posted up over at Defensive Edge's website:
SWAT article (http://www.defensive-edge.net/page1.html)

Thanks for the article- If the Magpul design was one of the top 3 than why did they discontinue it?

nyeti
12-19-06, 00:35
Raining Brass.........its the internet, I haven't a clue what your background is, and didn't intend to sound derogatory. I get so tired of the overuse of "operator", that I started using the phrase "professional trigger puller" to denote the difference between hobbyists, collectors, gun shop commandos, keyboard hero's, etc.............and folks who wholly make a living carrying a weapon in a high-threat environment, professional instructors to the folks in those environments, and those who are contracted to instruct in at the highest levels of the DOD/LE/ and providers of high end contract security. Essentially, people who live and die based on weapon performance, training, see high round counts in a professional setting. Not all military and L/E are in this boat, and some civilians are. Like I said, I just use it as a sort of standard to judge those making opinions. A few people on this list (in no particular order) would be Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, Scott Reitz, Paul Howe, Jeff Gonzales, Ken Good, Bill Murphy, Larry Mudgett, Ken Hackathorn, John Helms, and numerous others who I am sure I have left out..............but you get the drift. Most of these folks don't recommend crap, even if you don't like what they recommend-it is rarely crap.

Also keep in mind (and you have seen this personally), that many folks in government service don't get the luxury of modifying their tools. It is the main reason why many of those listed above are big proponents of the mastery of near stock guns, and are very leary of what accesories should be added to a weapon. This is why the Vltor stocks are popular. It has nothing but positives to add to a typical issue weapon (mil-spec tube, holds batteries if you need them, more efficient cheek weld, better toe position, light, durable, affordable, and adaptable to use in a gas/chemical environment, multiple sling options, and is easily removed from the host weapon to return it to issued configuration).

Hope that clears the mud..............:) .

nyeti
12-19-06, 00:45
In regards to the Magpul. It was a design that went through several improvements and evolution based on what feedback was coming back from units and folks using it. The key is that some pretty high speed folks were actually using the things and taking them to some pretty tough environments, and the modifications were made accordingly.

It was never on the top of my list, but I have a couple of instructors and SWAT cops at work who love theirs. The newer CTR's are a great simple stock if you have no requirement to carry batteries, and I am chomping at the bit for a UBR when they come out. THe Magpul is an excellent product.

Dave L.
12-19-06, 01:15
Raining Brass.........its the internet, I haven't a clue what your background is, and didn't intend to sound derogatory. I get so tired of the overuse of "operator", that I started using the phrase "professional trigger puller" to denote the difference between hobbyists, collectors, gun shop commandos, keyboard hero's, etc.............and folks who wholly make a living carrying a weapon in a high-threat environment, professional instructors to the folks in those environments, and those who are contracted to instruct in at the highest levels of the DOD/LE/ and providers of high end contract security. Essentially, people who live and die based on weapon performance, training, see high round counts in a professional setting. Not all military and L/E are in this boat, and some civilians are. Like I said, I just use it as a sort of standard to judge those making opinions. A few people on this list (in no particular order) would be Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, Scott Reitz, Paul Howe, Jeff Gonzales, Ken Good, Bill Murphy, Larry Mudgett, Ken Hackathorn, John Helms, and numerous others who I am sure I have left out..............but you get the drift. Most of these folks don't recommend crap, even if you don't like what they recommend-it is rarely crap.

Also keep in mind (and you have seen this personally), that many folks in government service don't get the luxury of modifying their tools. It is the main reason why many of those listed above are big proponents of the mastery of near stock guns, and are very leary of what accesories should be added to a weapon. This is why the Vltor stocks are popular. It has nothing but positives to add to a typical issue weapon (mil-spec tube, holds batteries if you need them, more efficient cheek weld, better toe position, light, durable, affordable, and adaptable to use in a gas/chemical environment, multiple sling options, and is easily removed from the host weapon to return it to issued configuration).

Hope that clears the mud..............:) .


Yeah, I got ya- I also stopped using the "O" catch-all word(ninja sounds more original these days). Thanks for the list of names, I know some but i'll be sure to keep a lookout for the others...I'll never stop taking advice and putting it to the test- listening to pro's just takes a few steps out of the trial and error process.

sns3guppy
12-20-06, 16:49
For whatever it's worth, I really like the Magpull 93B.