View Full Version : Anyone read LAV's G&A Article on AR's?
Submariner
12-16-06, 10:58
Larry Vickers wrote an article for Guns & Ammo Tactical Guns and Gear. At eight bucks for the magazine, I read it in WalMart and then copied it on the grocer's dime-a-copy machine (fair use for educational purposes only). Has anyone else read it? Comments? Should I post very brief, in context extracts? Some of his comments are at odds with views found here.
Larry is a combat vet, as stated on his website, so he speaks from experience. I agree with his views on weapon, keep it simple and basic, less things to go wrong, less things to break. His comments are no different from his former coworker (Paul Howe). Take a class from LAV and PH and you'll hear similar comments as in the magazine article. Look at Paul's M4 he use to teach with, it's a no frill beat up stick, but it runs and he can nail a 6" x 10" plate at 100 yd with iron sights on demand.
I like toys and that's all an AR is to most of us. I do have a couple of things that LAV is down on, but I've already spent the money and it's too late to undo those mods. I also have a "slick" backup carbine sans optics/rail/light/vfg.
submariner;
that was good thinking. can you fax it? thanks.:confused:
Sub,
I found the article interesting to gain another professional's perspective on the carbine. I found some of his points quite interesting. For instance, IIRC he stated that because he is left-eye-dominant, he shoots long guns lefty, but he advocates not installing ambi controls, because the vast majority of the ARs out there are not set up with them (and who says you're going to fight with your gun?).
Larry Vickers wrote an article for Guns & Ammo Tactical Guns and Gear. At eight bucks for the magazine, I read it in WalMart and then copied it on the grocer's dime-a-copy machine (fair use for educational purposes only). Has anyone else read it? Comments? Should I post very brief, in context extracts? Some of his comments are at odds with views found here.
You cheap bastard! :D
Please post whatever you think is interesting.
C4
Definitely post some exerpts....
Thanks!
Larry addresses flash supressors, chrome-lined vs SS barrels, gas blocks, railed forends, and hooded front sights, as well as other topics. While many will not like what he has to say, I don't think it's really at odds with what is normally accepted here.
I think the issues that will irk the most people are his views on gas blocks and hooded front sights. To put it lightly, pinned gas blocks are preferred. As for hooded front sights, the Troy is extremely popular, especially on civilian guns where it is primarily a decorative hood ornament. Allow me this one generalization: Those very same guns will usually be sporting a high-end optic, so no one realizes the sight picture is not ideal because few actually zero backup iron sights, much less shoot with them. (No offense to my recent training partner. :D)
I would love to read the article. If G&A paid LAV then I'll support them by buying the magazine. Maybe they will sell a boat load, the press run goes through the roof and they ask him for more articles.
Larry addresses flash supressors, chrome-lined vs SS barrels, gas blocks, railed forends, and hooded front sights, as well as other topics. While many will not like what he has to say, I don't think it's really at odds with what is normally accepted here.
I think the issues that will irk the most people are his views on gas blocks and hooded front sights. To put it lightly, pinned gas blocks are preferred. As for hooded front sights, the Troy is extremely popular, especially on civilian guns where it is primarily a decorative hood ornament. Allow me this one generalization: Those very same guns will usually be sporting a high-end optic, so no one realizes the sight picture is not ideal because few actually zero backup iron sights, much less shoot with them. (No offense to my recent training partner. :D)
I believe that unprotect gas blocks should be pinned for sure (especially on FA weapons). If I can hide a GB under a rail (protected) I am not as concerned about it.
This members that hang out in this forum tend to be some of the most highly trained LE/Civy shooters on planet so it is not surprising that LAV's comments would line up with the popular beliefs shared on here.
C4
Larry addresses flash supressors, chrome-lined vs SS barrels, gas blocks, railed forends, and hooded front sights, as well as other topics. While many will not like what he has to say, I don't think it's really at odds with what is normally accepted here.
I think the issues that will irk the most people are his views on gas blocks and hooded front sights. To put it lightly, pinned gas blocks are preferred. As for hooded front sights, the Troy is extremely popular, especially on civilian guns where it is primarily a decorative hood ornament. Allow me this one generalization: Those very same guns will usually be sporting a high-end optic, so no one realizes the sight picture is not ideal because few actually zero backup iron sights, much less shoot with them. (No offense to my recent training partner. :D)
Thank you for the insight Vinh! I'm going to head out tomorrow morning and find a copy for myself :)
I would love to read the article. If G&A paid LAV then I'll support them by buying the magazine. Maybe they will sell a boat load, the press run goes through the roof and they ask him for more articles.
I completely agree with M4arc.
We should be supporting any magazine that takes the time to search out experts like LAV for its articles. Too be perfectly honest I had stopped buying certain magazines because of the seriously low quality of the articles. It seemed 95% of the magazine was geared towards new shooters or airsoft kids who don't know any better. Or they were just trying to sell me some more junk I don't need.
Larry's straightforward / no BS article was like a breath of fresh air.
Submariner
12-16-06, 20:20
You cheap bastard! :D
Grant, I'm so cheap that I have almost saved enough to place an order with you. ;)
Any Christmas deals this year?
OK. Here's one:
Unless you are going to be shooting a very large volume of ammo in a short period of time, the standard weight barrel is just fine, Current mil-spec barrels are more than adequately accurate with good ammunition. Chrome-moly with a chrome-lined bore and chamber is the only way to fly. With the gas direct operating system you are inviting disaster if you use a barrel that is not chrome-lined, period. Forget stainless steel barrels for most use. It's not durable enough in terms of barrel life. Remember what the intended use of the rifle is; it is not a target or varmint gun.
ETA: We should be spending our money on bullets and practice, too.
Geez, I paid the $8.00 just for the Vickers article. While I don't always agree 100% with Larry's stuff, I do respect where his opinion comes from, and its nice to see people writing with this level of credentials. I always prefer stuff from guys like Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, Scott Reitz, Ken Hackathorn, clint Smith, etc.......They don't always see eye to eye, but they all have great experience levels that are earned the hard way.
Geez, I paid the $8.00 just for the Vickers article. While I don't always agree 100% with Larry's stuff, I do respect where his opinion comes from, and its nice to see people writing with this level of credentials. I always prefer stuff from guys like Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, Scott Reitz, Ken Hackathorn, clint Smith, etc.......They don't always see eye to eye, but they all have great experience levels that are earned the hard way.
That is exactly what I'll end up doing; paying $8.00 to read Vicker's article. But that's fine by me because the more magazines they sell the more they'll want Vickers (and other professionals) to write articles.
Living in Europe, where various companies (not Hk) think they can improve on the Ar15 system with tight tolerances and stainless barrels, I would love to read that article, but special editions of gun magazines don't make it over here.
Submariner
12-17-06, 08:06
Geez, I paid the $8.00 just for the Vickers article. While I don't always agree 100% with Larry's stuff, I do respect where his opinion comes from, and its nice to see people writing with this level of credentials. I always prefer stuff from guys like Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, Scott Reitz, Ken Hackathorn, clint Smith, etc.......They don't always see eye to eye, but they all have great experience levels that are earned the hard way.
The Bible says, "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." It would be nice if Denny Hansen or Guns & Ammo could get all these gentlemen together in one publication and publish it every month. It just ain't gonna happen. The market for truth is too small .:(
Magazines, like newspapers, make most of their their money off advertising. I'm glad you folks got the magazine and like the article. Here's my favorite excerpt:
I am a believer that every adult male in this country should be able to effectively use the standard-issue service rifle (M16) and service pistol (M9). I know this is a pipe dream, but my reasons are infallible; the patriots of this country should be able to defend her at a moment's notice. We should take a page out of the Swiss book in this regard.
Read The Militia Act of 1792. (http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm) That Congress also gave us the Second Amendment. LAV has "got it".
I'm training each of my children to shoot carbines and 1911's. I'm inviting church members over to the house to shoot. In the Old Testament, every man was armed (able to carry shield and spear). This country once held to these values and was great. It can be again. Patrick Henry had it right: the purse and sword belong in the hands of the people.
Alpha Sierra
12-17-06, 08:29
Maybe it's my questioning nature, but this:
With the gas direct operating system you are inviting disaster if you use a barrel that is not chrome-lined, period.
Makes no sense.
What disaster? What is the sequence of events that leads to it? And why is the DI gas system a critical element of that failure?
And SS barrel life not enough? It depends on your standards and your application. A SS barrel will give minute of man accuracy at 300 meters for 8 -10K rounds. Sure, CL will last a lot more. But how much is enough? There is no cut and dried answer.
Submariner
12-17-06, 12:19
Maybe it's my questioning nature, but this:
Makes no sense.
What disaster? What is the sequence of events that leads to it? And why is the DI gas system a critical element of that failure?
And SS barrel life not enough? It depends on your standards and your application. A SS barrel will give minute of man accuracy at 300 meters for 8 -10K rounds. Sure, CL will last a lot more. But how much is enough? There is no cut and dried answer.
Perhaps the folks here who know him/have trained with him will ask that he respond.
Cato-PM me an e-mail address and I'll see if my scan-foo is sufficient to the task. My grocer's copy machine isn't a Xerox so the quality is not what it might be.;)
For those looking for the subject issue, it's not a standard Guns & Ammo monthly issue, it's a special issue G&A "Tactical Guns & Gear" issue similar to their "Book of the AR-15".
It does have some other worthwhile articles besides the LAV one IMO.
Grant, I'm so cheap that I have almost saved enough to place an order with you. ;)
Any Christmas deals this year?
OK. Here's one:
ETA: We should be spending our money on bullets and practice, too.
I am sure we can find a Christmas discount for you somewhere!
SS barrels have a VERY short life compared to a CL barrel (no doubt on that one).
We should all do more shooting and less typing. :D
C4
Maybe it's my questioning nature, but this:
Makes no sense.
What disaster? What is the sequence of events that leads to it? And why is the DI gas system a critical element of that failure?
And SS barrel life not enough? It depends on your standards and your application. A SS barrel will give minute of man accuracy at 300 meters for 8 -10K rounds. Sure, CL will last a lot more. But how much is enough? There is no cut and dried answer.
I think we have to look at the two different worlds (LAV's and CIVY's). People like Larry and the group he left shoot more ammo than we can even imagine. They would have a SS barrel shot out in no time flat. Most Civy shooters only run 3-4K a YEAR through their weapons (if that). Most folks on the "bubble gum" forums most likely only shoot 500rds a year. So a SS barrel being used so little, is going to give the shooter a longer life than a HSLD guy.
I think there is a need for a 16" SS platform that is capable of extreme accuracy in the .Mil world. There is also a need for it in the Civy world. I often times use my Recon AR to varmint hunt. Its accuracy lends itself well to this hobby and gives me some practice on moving targets. :D
We (as Civy shooters) have to keep things in context and realize where the writer is coming from and understand to what audience he is giving advice to.
C4
KiloSierra
12-17-06, 13:07
On a di gas system, the gas along with the carbon it contains is dumped into the chamber area. Chrome plated chambers tends to be somewhat self-cleaning of carbon fouling. The carbon tends to stick more to the brass and not the chromed chamber, while on a unplated chamber it stick equally to both.
Stainless steel barrels simply do not have the corrosion resistance and barrel life of a chrome lined barrel. A stainless steel barrel is moderately corrosion resistant and has a hardness of around 30-40 on the rockwell C scale. The chrome plating is extremely corrosion resistant and and has a hardness over what the C scale goes to. Stainless steel ar barrels are used in the military, but only on special weapons that are for special purposes(sniping and target shooting) and get a limited amount of rounds fired through them compared to g.i. weapons. Pat Rogers stated that Force Recon can go through 5,000-8,000 rounds from their primary and secondary weapons in two weeks of training. If stainless steel barrels were used they would have to be replaced every couple of weeks. Chrome lined barrels can easily go twice that.
The chrome lined barrel on my ar will shoot around 1-1.5 MOA at 100 yds with good ammo and my sgt's stainless bull barreled ar will shoot around 0.5 MOA at the same range with the same ammo. The difference, which will not make any difference in my general purpose carbines role, simply is way to much of a difference for my sgt's urban sniper's rifle's role. Mine might have to work for several dozen or even several hundred rounds at a range of contact to several dozen yards, his only has to work for a magazine or two(or less) at 25 to 100 yds. Mine might go through a case of ammo in a month or two, his goes through a couple of cases a year. And a military or SWAT carbine can go through several cases a week.
A couple of points.
1) Thats a Force unit in run up - its not firing that EVERY week
2) Some units have two or three lowers issued and 6+ uppers. Tier1 units that do 5k+ rounds a week will not be troubles by a gun shitting the bed in the training -- friends I know have identical guns for that sort of stuff. And in expending that sort of round count - especially when some use suppressors -- other things die out before the barrel.
3) DI does not dump gas into the chamber directly -- it dumps it intially into the bolt - which exits the carrier in various manners -- and then after unlocking some gas is expelled into the receiver opening -- the only gas directly dumped into the chamber is from the expended casing -- which is the same in a gas piston gun.
4) I have a 16" Douglas middy SS barrel I use - its over 14k w/o a noticeable problems - inc some heavy fire periods (10+ mags in a "short" period of time). USNSWC Crabe did a shitload of testing (auto and endurance) with the Douglas barrels for the Mk12 and then later with the Lilja's -- the majority of issues I have seen with stainless barrels is due to their chambering -- not due to the fact they are stainless. I dont think SS barrels are for everthing -- but I would not discount them -- and I doubt that was LAV's intent either.
K.L. Davis
12-17-06, 14:04
On a di gas system, the gas along with the carbon it contains is dumped into the chamber area. Chrome plated chambers tends to be somewhat self-cleaning of carbon fouling. The carbon tends to stick more to the brass and not the chromed chamber, while on a unplated chamber it stick equally to both.
By the time the extraction starts, the DI gas system pretty well spent... the gas that is blown back through the chamber comes from the bore in front of it and it is a concern with a piston system the same as a DI system. Check out the slo-mo video (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=26196#post26196) that rsilvers posted and you can see the gas blowback from the chamber of a piston upper very clearly.
Stainless steel barrels simply do not have the corrosion resistance and barrel life of a chrome lined barrel. A stainless steel barrel is moderately corrosion resistant and has a hardness of around 30-40 on the rockwell C scale. The chrome plating is extremely corrosion resistant and and has a hardness over what the C scale goes to. Stainless steel ar barrels are used in the military, but only on special weapons that are for special purposes(sniping and target shooting) and get a limited amount of rounds fired through them compared to g.i. weapons. Pat Rogers stated that Force Recon can go through 5,000-8,000 rounds from their primary and secondary weapons in two weeks of training. If stainless steel barrels were used they would have to be replaced every couple of weeks. Chrome lined barrels can easily go twice that.
Hard chrome lining is designed as a protection from environmental threats... the forward throat area of a gun wears out do to the high heat and pressures of the gas, as well as the mechanical torque and hammering of the bullet -- there is really no concern with "wearing" a bore out. The thing to keep in mind about hard chrome is that it is no different from *regular* chrome, other than it is actually applied in a thick enough layer that a hardness test can be done on it... but still it is very thin. Again, while it certainly offers some degree of protection, primarily it is there to keep the bore from rusting.
Rescent test of several military barrels show that throat errosion is not what a lot of forum experts will try to tell you it is... cut a few shot out barrels in two and see what is going on, it is interesting as hell. I first started looking at this while researching hot spots and cook offs... you will see the relation between the two and that most of the info you get about "heat sinks" and all of that is just so much crap.
Stainless barrels have had a rather good show with the military really and the life of them is not at all as bad as some say -- what is noted is that a SS barrels fails suddenly, it shoots pretty good right up to the end of its useful life and then takes a dump and dies -- while a chromemo/HC barrel will taper off gradually till it just aint worth keeping, but the end of life is harder to notice. If you take a look at the throat/leade areas of different barrels, you will see a distinct wear "pattern" with chromemo and SS.
BTW: I dont like hooded front sights, they cause the shooter to naturally align the circle-in-a-circle and not the front sight post (which would almost never be center in the front circle) -- I know "I seem to have no problem getting them to line up while posing the draw down on myself in the bathroom mirror, while wearing every piece of tacticool nylon known to man"... the answer might be. So have your buddy get a box of stray cats and try to get a good sight picture while he is throwing the cats at you... naked.
ETA: I actually started this before Kevin posted, but my two fingers were going as fast as they could :(
Heavy Metal
12-17-06, 14:07
3) DI does not dump gas into the chamber directly -- it dumps it intially into the bolt - which exits the carrier in various manners -- and then after unlocking some gas is expelled into the receiver opening -- the only gas directly dumped into the chamber is from the expended casing -- which is the same in a gas piston gun.
Thank you, it's time someone said this. Some residue will blow out the carrier by the bolt into the extension but the barrel and chamber by and large makes its own.
Gas primarily vents out the two front relief holes. Some residue blows by the rings and goes out the cam slot and by the head of the bolt but this is a small fraction.
Some also comes out the rear relief hole(the thing near the FPRP hole) and also goes out past the tail end of the bolt to be deposited around the head of the firing pin and asociated areas of the carrier.
Submariner
12-17-06, 15:14
I think we have to look at the two different worlds (LAV's and CIVY's)...
We (as Civy shooters) have to keep things in context and realize where the writer is coming from and understand to what audience he is giving advice to.
Just came in from shooting; ready to type.:D
Who is that audience? In this case, buyers of a Guns & Ammo special edition entitled, Tactical Guns and Gear. His conclusion referred to Joe Citizen and the requirement that he ought be able to effectively operate an M16.
Here is why I think you get his intended audience wrong: "And frankly, if you are only attaching a simple weapon light to your carbine, a piece of Picatinny rail bolted onto your handguard works well. Picatinny-rail-system handguards came from the need to bolt on an IR laser (such as the ITI US GI-issued PEQ-2 unit) and have it retain zero. If this is not a requirement of your AR-15-style carbine, I would think long and hard before getting your rail system. Ask yourself whether you are getting it because you really need it or because you think it looks cool."
Few, if any, of we CIVY's have an AN/PEQ-2A (or equivalent.) So, to whom is he addressing this comment? The same audience as the audience of the whole article? I think so.
Zak Smith had a good article on slings. Someone named Patrick Sweeney had a couple of articles. I didn't note any bio info on him at the end of the articles. Who is he?
Just came in from shooting; ready to type.:D
Who is that audience? In this case, buyers of a Guns & Ammo special edition entitled, Tactical Guns and Gear. His conclusion referred to Joe Citizen and the requirement that he ought be able to effectively operate an M16.
Here is why I think you get his intended audience wrong: "And frankly, if you are only attaching a simple weapon light to your carbine, a piece of Picatinny rail bolted onto your handguard works well. Picatinny-rail-system handguards came from the need to bolt on an IR laser (such as the ITI US GI-issued PEQ-2 unit) and have it retain zero. If this is not a requirement of your AR-15-style carbine, I would think long and hard before getting your rail system. Ask yourself whether you are getting it because you really need it or because you think it looks cool."
Few, if any, of we CIVY's have an AN/PEQ-2A (or equivalent.) So, to whom is he addressing this comment? The same audience as the audience of the whole article? I think so.
Zak Smith had a good article on slings. Someone named Patrick Sweeney had a couple of articles. I didn't note any bio info on him at the end of the articles. Who is he?
Maybe he is talking too two audiences (don't know). Oh, I am a civy and have NV and IR lasers. :D
C4
Voodoochild
12-17-06, 15:36
I have that magazine and will go back and read the article. Maybe if it isnt to much of a PITA I might scan it and post it up here.
K.L. Davis
12-17-06, 16:13
Someone named Patrick Sweeney had a couple of articles. I didn't note any bio info on him at the end of the articles. Who is he?
Patrick is a well known gunsmith. He also (as you see) writes for magazines and whatever they call the web stuff, ezines or whatever :confused:
I bought the magazine pretty much for that article, although it has some other interesting articles. Simplicity and irons permanently set to cowitness were some of the points made. Once I establish the credibility of the sources, I pretty much get my info from sites like this and 10-8 and have pretty much kissed gunzines goddbye. I will buy one for a name that I like or if it has four or five interesting articles. If you use the search function, you find that most of the questions have been asked.
Kevin brings up some very valid points a few posts above.
In the military, going to the range is a nightmare, with all the safety BS and civilian management, etc. Most all SOF units except for a couple share ranges with big army, and NEVER have "priority". It is that division/brigade's base, their ranges, and their money paying for their upkeep/management. You can't just go to the range and blow ammo, which is also in painfully short supply right now, Army-wise anyways.
You will have 15,000 round weeks, usually followed up by 3 months of not shooting at a range.
Guys in units who would have to worry about barrel life don't...because an armorer can swap out any part or the whole gun in 5 minutes, no questions asked.
Screwed blocks equal screwed guns, eventually they will move. Accept it, and have ADCO or Bravo Co. or someone pin your gas block. If you'll spend $20 on a bent trigger guard, you have no excuse.
Submariner
12-17-06, 17:54
Maybe he is talking too two audiences (don't know). Oh, I am a civy and have NV and IR lasers. :D
C4
Are you willing to sell IR lasers to me? Now THAT would be Christmas!:D
Alpha Sierra
12-17-06, 17:54
Good discussion. I now understand (I think) the context in which Mr Vickers made his comments about SS barrel durability. Like I thought, it's a matter of expectations. Like Grant said, I shoot about 2500 to 4000 rounds per year, so a SS barrel will last two to three years before it is no longer accurate enough.
I have seen the way my SS barrels have died, and it matches what KL Davis observed.
I'm still in the dark about the "disaster" impending if one uses something other than a Cr-Mo chrome plated barrel.
Grendelizer
12-17-06, 18:00
I read Vicker's article, and I really like when someone has strong opinions AND ALSO explains WHY.
I was disappointed to see he recommended against hooded front sights, because I really like things like the Troy flip-up front sight. So he "gored my sacred cow," but I can't complain because I have no combat experience; I can only shut up and learn.
On the other hand, he's not deer hunting in my woods, either, so if his points only apply to a combat application, I also feel free to use what works for me. ;)
John
I read Vicker's article, and I really like when someone has strong opinions AND ALSO explains WHY.
I was disappointed to see he recommended against hooded front sights, because I really like things like the Troy flip-up front sight. So he "gored my sacred cow," but I can't complain because I have no combat experience; I can only shut up and learn.
On the other hand, he's not deer hunting in my woods, either, so if his points only apply to a combat application, I also feel free to use what works for me. ;)
John
He's not a fan of many of my sacred cows either.
He has solid reasons behind his recommendations. I have reasons behind my choices. In the end, since I'm not operating on a team, it's my life at stake, and I am comfortable with my choices.
Once I establish the credibility of the sources, I pretty much get my info from sites like this and 10-8 and have pretty much kissed gunzines goddbye. I will buy one for a name that I like or if it has four or five interesting articles.
Amen.
KL, thanks for the new sig-line buddy :o
Submariner
12-18-06, 07:56
I'm just looking to avoid the sacred cow pies.:D
Can't scan the copy I made. Grocer's copier must have been made by DPMS.;)
Are you willing to sell IR lasers to me? Now THAT would be Christmas!:D
I have been selling IR lasers for a long time: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=148
C4
Magazines, like newspapers, make most of their their money off advertising.
True, but you can't sell advertising space if you don't have the circulation numbers.
Remind me to hit you up for free legal advice. My excuse for not wanting to pay for it will be, 1) I'm too cheap & 2) You'll make money off other clients so why should I pay.
Just buy the damn magazine. Cato, since you can't get one in Europe I'll buy two and send you one...FREE of charge! :)
Great offer!! You rock!
Let me know if I can get you something from Austria- a original Glock "minus" connector maybe?
True, but you can't sell advertising space if you don't have the circulation numbers.
Remind me to hit you up for free legal advice. My excuse for not wanting to pay for it will be, 1) I'm too cheap & 2) You'll make money off other clients so why should I pay.
Just buy the damn magazine. Cato, since you can't get one in Europe I'll buy two and send you one...FREE of charge! :)
How about those of us stuck in BFV?
How about those of us stuck in BFV?
Since when is DC considered BFV? I thought NOVA and DC was leading the rest of us minions out of the dark ages and into the blue states and enlightenment? :confused:
;)
Since when is DC considered BFV? I thought NOVA and DC was leading the rest of us minions out of the dark ages and into the blue states and enlightenment? :confused:
;)
I'm a good hour and a half away from DC. An hour and fifteen minutes should I decide to go through the god-forsaken state of Maryland.
Eh, I had to try. I'm getting cheap(er) in my old age. :D
Eh, I had to try. I'm getting cheap(er) in my old age. :D
I hear ya.
I'm a cheap bastard too, I just like giving Submariner a hard time :D
Patrick Aherne
12-18-06, 15:59
Larry Vickers wrote an article for Guns & Ammo Tactical Guns and Gear. At eight bucks for the magazine, I read it in WalMart and then copied it on the grocer's dime-a-copy machine (fair use for educational purposes only). Has anyone else read it? Comments? Should I post very brief, in context extracts? Some of his comments are at odds with views found here.
You stole. Don't make excuses for theivery.
I just bought the issue.
I enjoyed the article and I also enjoyed the FAL article as well. Seems like better than your average "fluff" mag.
Submariner
12-19-06, 23:16
You stole. Don't make excuses for theivery.
Not "theivery" when you first get permission.;)
Remind me to hit you up for free legal advice. My excuse for not wanting to pay for it will be, 1) I'm too cheap & 2) You'll make money off other clients so why should I pay.
Ask away. It's called pro bono work and most do it. "Cast you bread upon the waters..."
Unfortuneately I can't find the mag around here. Drats....
Unfortuneately I can't find the mag around here. Drats....
I got mine at a Barnes and Noble.
In my opinion the only reason to have a chrome lined barrel if you are shooting fully auto or shooting corrosive ammo...My SS barrel will last almost as long and the average shooter doesn't shoot enough to wear out even a regular barrel in the first place.
I got mine at a Barnes and Noble.
Meh, not driving 5.5 hours to Denver :eek:
Meh, not driving 5.5 hours to Denver :eek:
JLM,
Try King Soopers. I usually find mine there.
S/F
Libardo
BravoCompanyUSA
12-20-06, 19:23
Just got the issue....it looks like a good one!
....a bit off topic; this is the first magazine I have seen with no advertisements in it. ??? Well actually there are two ads; cover 2 and cover 4, but that is it?
I think they rushed it to print. Or maybe it went to print as primedia was making some structural changes ?
I cant find it anywhere. Tried B&N, Books a Million and all the local and not so local supermarkets. Damnit.:mad:
JLM,
Try King Soopers. I usually find mine there.
S/F
Libardo
LOL, hate to sound defeatist but the nearest KS is in....Denver :eek:
Actually, I WAS there back in August (used to live there) and after being in town for 15 minutes all I wanted to do is leave :D
I cant find it anywhere. Tried B&N, Books a Million and all the local and not so local supermarkets. Damnit.:mad:
Not sure where you're at 6920 but it just hit the stands here on the east coast.
Heavy Metal
12-21-06, 11:40
Got mine at Kroger's
Alpha Sierra
12-21-06, 13:32
Got mine at Kroger's
+1
Some good stuff on auxiliary gear there. I've been looking for a good pair of lightweight boots and the article on that hits the spot. Also great review on wind meters.
China Mart is the deal. Haven't had a chance to read the whole thing yet but some observations. Not much I would disagree with really, with the exception of the rail system, but that's only because I like to run VFG's. IIRC Larry doesn't care for them. MI rails are cheap AND good so there ya be.
Also I happen to like the M4 double heatshield handguards, but then again I have big mongoloid hands so that works for ME. I can certainly see where someone would prefer the smaller CAR handguards.
Need to read the whole thing now ;)
I read it.... Nothing Earth shattering... A few things that I am not 100% in agreement with is the need for fixed BUIS.
The KAC RAS is still a good rail and I will continue to use it on my Carbine as I like to run a VFG and have a light.
I think Larry is a very knowledgable guy and would like to take a class from him someday.
The Entire Magazine was alright, but I like to have Bios on the guys writing them so I no from what experience they are coming from when they endorse a certain piece of kit like boots or load bearing gear,etc. Most of the Authors for those Articles I do not know there back grounds which would make me leery about following some of there recommendations.
militarymoron
12-31-06, 01:05
i'm a bit late to this discussion but wanted to comment on the sighting issue. when i read LAV's comment on the circle hooded front sight, it only made sense to me if you assume the person is making the mistake of centering the front circle on the target, and ignoring the front sight post forwhatever reason.
if you've sighted in the rifle by always centering the rear aperture with the front hood circle, and the top of the front sight post with the target, you're going to hit POI. the post and the target doesn't have to be be centered in the front hood. it could be high or low in the circle. as long as you've sighted it in that way, always centering both circles, and placing the top of the front sight on target, it's going to work. the only variable is the height of the front sight post in the front circle, but it's irrelevant if you're focusing on the front sight and placing it correctly, not centering the front circle on the target.
i think the circle-on-circle is more of a tool that aids in consistent alignment of the head/eye with the sights, first and foremost, because it's more natural for the human eye to center two concentric rings than a ring and top of a post. but unless you're completely ignoring the front sight, it's going to place it right where you sighted it on the target.
for the shots to be high or low using the circle on circle approach, that means you're centering the target in the front hood, and not placing it correctly on the front sight, wherever that is.
with the standard sight picture (M16 sights with 'wings'), we're centering the top of the front sight post in the rear aperture, and placing the front sight on target.
with the circle-on-circle, we're not centering the front sight with the rear aperture, but the front circle, and placing the front sight on target (which may be high or low in the front circle). as long as it's consistent and used correctly, it's no less accurate, IMHO.
Army Chief
12-31-06, 04:52
Apologies if I've missed it somewhere down the line, but I am still a bit unclear on the RAS differences between the Knight's unit and the LaRue. As a career Soldier (still overseas) I'm familiar with the former, of course, but haven't actually seen a LaRue. In the article in question, Vickers stated a clear preference for the LaRue, but it's less than clear to me why that might be the case.
Would someone be willing to humor the FNG and offer a quick laydown on the practical differences between these two rail units in M4 trim? What makes the LaRue the more refined solution?
Much obliged!
Chief
Chief --
In a nutshell
a number of units now have Larue FF rails on their M4A1's
I was over somewhere today and saw a NIB Larue that had just been fitted to a M4A1.
Advantages - you get a Freefloat tube with its advantages, and the Larue had the anti-roatation bar (or whatver its called) so the handguard cant tilt.
Disadvantages - no M203.
The Larue is basically a KAC FF RAS taken to a higher step.
Army Chief
12-31-06, 09:25
Perfect! Thanks much, Kevin.
Chief
Alpha Sierra
12-31-06, 09:32
I've read LAV's article several times, and I am still trying to understand why not using a chrome lined barrel in a DI rifle is a disaster waiting to happen (or words to that effect).
I ain't no career soldier, but I am a pretty smart engineer and do not see any connection between what the bore is plated with and how the action operates.
I ain't no career soldier, but I am a pretty smart engineer and do not see any connection between what the bore is plated with and how the action operates.
You can get barrels with chromed chambers only. Chrome line chambers are easier to clean and offer more reliable feeding.
Precision shooters often prefer plain chrome moly barrels. Broken in correctly they tend to be more accurate. The trade off is that they are harder to clean and not recommended for fighting guns. Non chromed chambers/barrels are more prone to corrosion in harsh environments etc... Chrome lined barrels also generally have a longer service life if properly maintained. Those benefits outweigh the slight drop in accuracy.
MilitaryMoron, thanks for that very clear reply. That answers my question exactly and was what I was trying to say. I think I might have gotten lucky, POA and POI on my Troy at 50 yards has my post centered (or darn close to it)
Alpha Sierra
12-31-06, 14:41
You can get barrels with chromed chambers only. Chrome line chambers are easier to clean and offer more reliable feeding.
Precision shooters often prefer plain chrome moly barrels. Broken in correctly they tend to be more accurate. The trade off is that they are harder to clean and not recommended for fighting guns. Non chromed chambers/barrels are more prone to corrosion in harsh environments etc... Chrome lined barrels also generally have a longer service life if properly maintained. Those benefits outweigh the slight drop in accuracy.
I understand all you said, and I agree with most of it.
But none of those issues have anything to do with the method for operating the action.
Disregard, it isn't that big a deal. I take what I read and filter it through my own applications and requirements.
Mark LaRue
12-31-06, 15:54
I got mine at Wal-Mart.
Every purchase you make at the Great-Wal-of-China-Mart tells them f*cksticks in Bentonville that you agree with their wanton destruction of the U.S. manufacturing base.
Just my .02 worth...
ML
Every purchase you make at the Great-Wal-of-China-Mart tells them f*cksticks in Bentonville that you agree with their wanton destruction of the U.S. manufacturing base.
Just my .02 worth...
ML
No need to destroy an American company to save American companies. Wal-Mart has sophisticated inventory tracking systems. If you don't buy the cheap stuff made in China. they'll quit stocking it.
Every purchase you make at the Great-Wal-of-China-Mart tells them f*cksticks in Bentonville that you agree with their wanton destruction of the U.S. manufacturing base.
Just my .02 worth...
ML
Mark,
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/view/
Normally I don't watch Frontline because of its political 'slant' but this one kinda opened my eyes.
Alpha Sierra
12-31-06, 17:13
Every purchase you make at the Great-Wal-of-China-Mart tells them f*cksticks in Bentonville that you agree with their wanton destruction of the U.S. manufacturing base.
Just my .02 worth...
ML
+1,000,000
I can count with the fingers of one hand (and have fingers left over) how many times I have purchased anything at Wal-Mart since the beginning of 2005 which is when I decided to not help them destroy the American middle class.
Good idea, in my book, since I am part of that middle class AND my livelihood depends on American manufacturing.
Every purchase you make at the Great-Wal-of-China-Mart tells them f*cksticks in Bentonville that you agree with their wanton destruction of the U.S. manufacturing base.
Hmmm... I guess I won't look for LaRue rails in the Wal-Mart sporting goods dept.
Just kidding! ;)
I actually just ordered another rail and some other stuff off your website last night. :) Bought direct from the U.S. manufacturer!
K.L. Davis
12-31-06, 19:50
Army Chief,
The first railed handguard for the M4 (SOPMOD Block I) was the KAC RIS, it was changed a little and called the RAS -- amoung the changes, the most noticable is that the RIS had the tensioning screw at the front, and the RAS has it at the back.
The RAS provides four rails and a removable bottom section to mount the 203, but it is not a "free float" system.
One big issue was that these rails are really little more than replacement handguards for the snap on, plastic style handguards... lessons learned from early deployments found that a more rigid system was needed.
There were a few aftermarket free float handguard systems available, the KAC RAS II and "RAS based" FF systems used on the Mk12 Mod1, ARMS SIR, LaRue Tactical and others -- of these, the LaRue is one of the best made and available systems, so it became popular for the ability to have the rail system and a free float set-up. The LaRue system offers a very solid setup but, but as mentioned, does not provide a removable lower section.
Actually deploying the systems has proven they are valuable as part of today's battle weapons -- and as part of Block II to the program, the military requested a new handguard that offers the best of the available mix -- just recently, Block II testing finished and the system submitted by Daniel Defense was chosen as the new handguard for the MWS/SOPMOD system.
The current free float systems (from any of the top names) offer a much more solid rail base and the advantage of free floating the barrel, which improves accuracy. POI does not shift significantly from moving stuff around on the rail and the newer generation system will mount the standard 203.
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