View Full Version : Internet Gun Forums
Internet gun forums started to gain a lot of popularity in the mid to late 90's. Because of this we now have a whole generation of shooters that have learned everything they know about weapons and gear from the internet.
In the past, shooters gained their knowledge from attending shooting schools or military service (first hand). With the birth of huge gun forums, they now get the bulk of their knowledge from reading about other peoples experiences (second/third hand).
One of my favorite questions you see on forums is the following:
Member 1: Which AR's are the best?
Member 2: OLY!
Member 3: BM!
Member 4: RRA!
What member 1 fails to realize is the members 2-4 have ONLY owned one AR in their entire life. So their experience with other AR's is zero, but they feel that their AR is the best because they own it. :rolleyes: The other thing that member 1 doesn't know is that the other members all have a total round count of about 1,000 rds through their collective AR's.
So the question is this good or bad? One thing is for sure, internet shooters are very knowledgeable on name brands, prices and what is new.
One of the main downsides that I see with forums, is that they are CONSTANTLY perpetuating the same lies over and over (like the one about Mattel making M16's). The other biggest problem I find, is that if they see a guy post that his XYZ AR went down then they believe that every AR that company makes is junk.
Thoughts?
C4
...but then again the internet is anonymous so you can only assume the responses you are getting are based on E-Knowledge and not experience.
Does it REALLY matter though? Arfcom does not cater to the professional nor would the professional go there for advice.
I run into alot of shooters, who are just that. They know how to use the stuff they have and may not be up to date on the latest and greatest.
I agree 100% with learning to shoot, nothing replaces the things you learn in person-from people who know what they're doing.
Long ago, I went to a school hosted by Hampton PD. It was a Beretta pistol course, At the time, I had a Smith 5906. A retired Chicago PD guy named Jack Manfre taught it. One of the first things he said was that nothing he is going to teach was "his" he taught everything he had learned from others and put it together in a manner that worked. A little bit here and there. That statement alone made me really listen to him, it just made alot of sense!
I've learned the same way, all I know, I've picked up through time and I sort through it all and apply it as deemed appropriate.
From time to time someone will ask "have you seen this or used that? I read this in this magazine, etc" I'm looking at them with this blank face, saying, what?
Those of you who know him have heard this-Does it work? Is it necessary? and Can you duplicate it under stress?
Mark
...but then again the internet is anonymous so you can only assume the responses you are getting are based on E-Knowledge and not experience.
Does it REALLY matter though? Arfcom does not cater to the professional nor would the professional go there for advice.
Ah, ye of common sense. You have been around enough to know that the knowledge that comes out of forums is most likely 3rd hand at best and to take it as such. To the unsuspecting shooter, they believe that God himself has written it.
I am not really concerned with any forum in particular or if the shooter is a professional or not. I would say that 80% of the posters on the internet are NOT professional's (this would include me) and they DO come to the internet to get advice on gear and weapons. The smart ones have learned to trust only a few posters and ignore the rest. Then they find out for themselves by buying said item.
C4
Then they find out for themselves by buying said item.
C4
The internet is only good for porn and movie reviews.
baffle Stack
12-16-06, 14:00
The internet gun forums are a good place to get gear reviews. If it wasn’t for them I would be running around with an Hbar wearing 1st samco handgaurds and 40 round USA brand magazines. Hell if it wasn’t for the net I wouldn’t know to buy my gear from Grant. I would probably buy junk out of Delta Force or Cheaper Than Dirt.:confused:
With that said, I would not try to teach myself tactics by reading the forums. You guys have already said it. There’s no replacement for 1st hand experience. A lot of people think they become navy seals after spending an hour reading the boards. I’ve leaned to tune these types out.
:cool:
The internet is only good for porn and movie reviews.
And I would argue that even most of the movie reviews suck. That leaves me with just porn :D
And I would argue that even most of the movie reviews suck. That leaves me with just porn :D
Good point. :D
Rmplstlskn
12-16-06, 18:40
The internet has its problems, but as Grant stated, if you are smart (intelligence with wisdom), the internet gun forums can be a treasure trove of information to those like myself, casual, non-professional shooters who love AR's (and FAL's :p ).
I have made MUCH WISER purchases because of ARFCOM and M4C, and I will never deny this fact. If you are a knuckle-dragging, mouth-breather, then the internet gun forums have probably made you into a bigger fool than you were before...
It also wields POWER (good and bad)...
For example, it was the power of the bad feedback, and the resulting loss of sales, that motivated Wolf to stop using laquer on their ammo cases. I'm sure there are many more examples if I thought upon it.
I willfully admit that it was seeking "experienced, shooter" advice and knowledge that brought me to M4C, as ARFCOM fell prey to its success and became 90% useless babble to me. So count me in for a +1 on gun forums..
Rmpl
Much of whats lacking in regards to internet gun info, is background, context, complete info, etc.
For example. Someone posts that they own item/gun brand X, and it broke on them today and they have only had it a month.
What you dont hear, is how it was dropped the day before and tumbled down 3 flights of concrete stairs.
K.L. Davis
12-16-06, 18:56
A wise man once said...
The Internet is an intensifier, it amplifies humanity, it finds that which a man truly is and makes it stronger. If you are dumb, it will make you dumber; if you are smart, it will make you smarter; if you are noble, it will make you nobler; and if you are a pervert, it will make you more perverse.
In the end, the Internet will be either the greatest or worse thing that ever happened.
Robb Jensen
12-16-06, 20:18
A wise man once said...
I agree.
A wise man once said...
"The Internet is an intensifier, it amplifies humanity, it finds that which a man truly is and makes it stronger. If you are dumb, it will make you dumber; if you are smart, it will make you smarter; if you are noble, it will make you nobler; and if you are a pervert, it will make you more perverse.
In the end, the Internet will be either the greatest or worse thing that ever happened."
Who ever said this was a very wise man indeed.
Internet forums are for the most part worthless. M4C is trying to be different but it will be a long and hard up hill battle to keep it on track.
Most forums are filled with arrogant/opinioned guys who have no earthly idea what they are talking about 99.9% of the time. You are more likely to get the wrong answer if you dare to ask a question. Others are dominated by / run by self proclaimed “Experts” with over bloated ego's that seem to care more about pushing me to buy more crap so they can get free shit. I have deemed both types “Time Killers Only" for the past six months. If I wake up in the middle of the night and cannot go back to sleep they help to pass the time.
Neither type appeals to me anymore for anything else. I have better things to do with my time and all it takes for me is a phone call to get straight info.
Obviously every forum usually has at least a few guys who are worth listening to but they are for the most part drowned out by the masses.
I only actively participate on M4C & AKForum because they are trying to be different.
These forums of course have pros and cons. Take, for example, the 800-pound gorilla, arfcom. The problems many have had there are well known, and I won't bring any up on this site. However, most of the people that I know here, I know originally from arfcom. The earlier training classes that Dinger organized had much of the participation they did due to exposure on arfcom.
All of these sites have a certain level of noise. It's quite low here, and that's wonderful.
Pay attention on the various gun forums, and you learn to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Patrick Aherne
12-17-06, 01:02
The other thing about the internet gun forums is the BS that most folks who read gun magazines spout. I believe that 95% of most gun magazine articles are absolute dog dung. The only mag I still subscribe to is SWAT.
While I am on a rant: How about the guy that has read every issue of Blaster and Blammo and tries to tell a bonafide subject matter expert he doesn't know what he's talking about? Only on the internet can such things happen.
Or, how about the guys who have tons of gear and guns, but never train with them. They spend all their time polishing and oiling safe queens and getting ready for zombie invasions. I KNOW those guys never put all their gear on and try to go prone from a run, let alone get back up or attempt to change a mag while prone, or in the dark! But these guys are experts;) because they have all the cool stuff!
My stuff mostly sucks, but it's beat up and worn because it's honestly used. I guess I am not tacticool.
How about all the cop bashers? Guys who gave up their lunch money in high school become sudden tactical geniuses in 20/20 hindsight whenever there is any negative police news story.
I met one internet wonder in person at a carbine course. He went three and a half bills, easy, and proceeded to tell me and the other cop who was in attendance, that most cops can't shoot. Keep in mind, the other cop was a SWAT, K9, Explosive breacher, prior Marine infantry, extremely capable and incredibly humble nice guy. So nice, he let everyone of the regular citizens who wanted to shoot his issued M4 and MP5SD. This is a HUGE deal in California that most folks will never get to do. I'm not HSLD, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one time and I mostly don't make a donkey out of myself on the range.
Fatf@#k keeps running his mouth about cops' poor shooting until I look at him, contemplate what I would do if I wasn't a cop and could get away with an appropriate ass beating, and then I just say, "You're right. Cops can't shoot. Good luck with that Kel-tec," and walked away.
I used to argue with stupid folks on the net, but it just isn't worth the effort. I have too much to do, too much to learn, and not enough time to waste on idiots. Work is when I get paid to deal with oxygen-thieves, not my time.
The smart ones have learned to trust only a few posters and ignore the rest
That's how it works for me.....
I have to admit.. Prior to say... 01-02, I had never seen on any boards and never heard of a lot of the techniques, and gear and trainers that are out there. My experience was working for Uncle Sugar and from what I had read in some of the gun rags. So I have to say, I have learned alot in the few short years I have been on gun boards.
And since I consider myself reasonably intelligent in a moderate sort of way...;)
I learned very quickly who knew what they were talking about and who was absolutely full off SH*%. Like anything in life, you need to adjust the sensitivity of your BS and Dumb Ass Meters and calibrate them on a regular basis. Once that is done, then it makes sifting thru all the Airsofters and retards pretty easy.
I have learned not to get sucked in or even respond to threads that I know will go south quickly . Any thread that begins with
What is the best...
30 vs 28..
Aimpoint vs EOTech...
Colt vs >insert AR maker here<...
You can tell just by perusing the training forums of most boards... very little traffic. Training and technique's are boring to most. no cool shiny gadgets to give you the perceived "edge" Everyone is more concerned with the latest new toy. Don't get me wrong... I'm a gear queer big time... but you have to evaluated what a new piece of gear is worth to you and if it will really enhance your performance.
I'll say this about Gunboards...The Equipment exchanges have been awesome. I have gotten some smoking good deals on used stuff that has given me the opportunity to try a lot of different stuff to find out what works for me.
Like anything in life... you get out of it what you put in....
My two cents...
This topic is very similar to a topic discussing the ability of a person to learn martial arts from a textbook. You can read about Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, and dozens of different martial arts styles in many published books and periodicals (magazines) out there, but that doesn't mean you are a good martial artist. It means you enjoy reading about the topic of martial arts.
Reading about shooting and shooting techniques on an Internet page is a lot like a person who tries to learn martial arts from a book. Any person who has studied martial arts in a school will tell you out right that you can't leanr the techniques without going to class, and without a good instructor. There are no self-taught blackbelts in martial arts. Isn't this same thing true with the techniques of learning how to fight and defend one's self with a rifle? I think it is.
I could fill sentences and paragraphs about what I have read about Bruce Lee, the martial artist, but that doesn't mean I am a pratitioner of his style of martial arts called Jeet Koon Do. Same thing about shooting. I may be able to read and write stuff about a sniper like Carlos Hathcock, but that doesn't mean I am a sniper.
I think you all get the point... To read about an activity, or even to write about it is fun and enjoyable entertainment. I even enjoy asking questions that stimulate discussion from time to time.
But if a person really wants to learn to shoot, I think the best advice is to find a good instructor. A lot of folks might have to swallow some pride, especially folks who are to-date 100% self-taught... but I don't think anything could beat getting the information directly from a shooting professional. In person, at the range, where you can prove the instructor's words right there and then.
What the Internet does is this... it offers literally millions of individuals to meet on a forum, or a chat room, or in an e-mail, or on a web page, and the key word for the Internet is communication. We can all talk about it... yes, anonymously, or you can tell folks who and where you were, either way. The Internet isn't exclusively anonymous. But it is a form of communication second to none out there.
And concerning good tips versus bad tips...
Truth has a way of finding the surface. B.S. has a way of being found out. If anyone is sincerely seeking answers and knowledge, most likely given the chance to read enough responses from a number of folks... they'll figure out which is truth, and which is some knuckle-head spreading B.S.
The cool thing is, we all dig guns, and that is the common thread among us all... and in that, it becomes almost like a family. Some good, some bad, some folks you like, some folks you hate... but that's life...
and maybe this was three cents, not two... ha
M4.Geek
Like anything in life... you get out of it what you put in....
Harv, that sums it all up and then some...
What the Internet does is this... it offers literally millions of individuals to meet on a forum, or a chat room, or in an e-mail, or on a web page, and the key word for the Internet is communication. We can all talk about it... yes, anonymously, or you can tell folks who and where you were, either way. The Internet isn't exclusively anonymous. But it is a form of communication second to none out there.
And concerning good tips versus bad tips...
Truth has a way of finding the surface. B.S. has a way of being found out. If anyone is sincerely seeking answers and knowledge, most likely given the chance to read enough responses from a number of folks... they'll figure out which is truth, and which is some knuckle-head spreading B.S.
The cool thing is, we all dig guns, and that is the common thread among us all... and in that, it becomes almost like a family. Some good, some bad, some folks you like, some folks you hate... but that's life...
and maybe this was three cents, not two... ha
M4.Geek
I totally agree...
I started a handgun forum about 8 months ago and think that it's a great place for fellow gun enthusiast to meet up to share experiences, information, advice and in some cases a life time of knowledge that can really help someone just starting out. Is there a BS factor...? In some cases yes, but most of the time it's found and is either removed or is corrected. With my forum having over 1,200 members, the BS is found pretty quickly. I'm lucky at this point and there hasn't been that much, of course the forum is still growing.
Jay Cunningham
12-17-06, 04:22
Here are some numbers from another forum, just to illustrate:
There are currently 112,584 registered members; 112,390 are active accounts.
GD has 336,686 topics with 6,684,276 replies.
The Instruction Forum (which has 6 sub-forums) has a total of 195 topics with 1,628 responses.
:eek:
It's really not just limited to gun forums. I participate in (or at least read) forums for every hobby I have, and they are all basically the same, they all have their recurrin arguments, and once you've been around them for a bit they all thave their "gurus". Try going to a Jeep forum and asking "which should I get, a body lift of suspension lift?" and see what happens. It's their version of ".45 vs. 9mm" or "Glock vs. 1911".
I do believe that alot of the issue comes from the anonymity that screen names afford people. It's the reason that I now use my real name (and on this site my own photograph as an avatar) when posting.
One could argue that "gun forums" should be taken a bit more seriously because guns can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands and because the issue behind the gun, self defense, is so critical. The reality is, however, that the vast majority of us are actually "hobby shooters" and the vast majority of the information they get from internet forums isn't actually dangerous.
and, if nothing else, as va_dinger said they can be entertaining.
Here are some numbers from another forum, just to illustrate:
There are currently 112,584 registered members; 112,390 are active accounts.
GD has 336,686 topics with 6,684,276 replies.
The Instruction Forum (which has 6 sub-forums) has a total of 195 topics with 1,628 responses.
:eek:
Places like that are sometimes a good source of entertainment....You have to love how some fourms make non gun owners moderators based on popularity.
As I get more into shooting and a career change, I am more interested in technicle stuff. I have found coming here is better than most. But you can still sense that only what 10% are using for platforms and gear is acceptable and everything else is not. It's expected....
Places like that are sometimes a good source of entertainment....You have to love how some fourms make non gun owners moderators based on popularity.
As I get more into shooting and a career change, I am more interested in technicle stuff. I have found coming here is better than most. But you can still sense that only what 10% are using for platforms and gear is acceptable and everything else is not. It's expected....
I was amazed to find out that the majority of the mods and staff on some forums are not shooters at all. This is why they generally never post in the technical forums. Heck, I don't even think the OWNERS of some forums even shoot. :rolleyes:
C4
While I agree with everyone about the proliferation of forums of mass distraction, I think there's a lot of positive outcome to internet gun boards.
I have learned a metric shit-ton worth of good info in the past year or two from these places. Let's face it, for the average citizen there just isn't a practical way to be exposed to this kind of information, be it technical, tactical, or otherwise. How else would a 24 year old mechanical engineer from rural Oklahoma ask questions and get answers from real-world credentialed experts? If you aren't in a line of work that puts you in the circle of knowledge, you'd be stuck with gun magazines, gun shop chit-chat, gun show green berets, and mass produced cheap-crap catalogs as your sources of info. Like Cybin said, there'd be a lot of us running around with First-Samco'd up Oly carbines with clamp on plastic doo-dads hanging off if it because we just wouldn't know there was better stuff out there. I've got friends who "really like guns" and sound like I did when I was in high school. Rumors, myths, wives' tales, silliness. One or two of them are serious enough they might swing the right direction with some help; the others I just smile and nod and try not to argue.
I found AR15.com first, of course, and branched out to read forums like the old G&R board, Lightfighter.net, 10-8 forums, and now M4 is my main hangout. The reason I progressed past Arf is because I saw that there was a more serious side to this "gun nut" hobby and wanted to grow in that direction, and I found Arf lacking beyond the "hey look at this cool new thingamajig" posts. I saw that many of the names a I recognized as being the knowledgeable ones from Arf were posting elsewhere, and I "took the red pill" so to speak.
Instead of thinking of bigger boards like AR15.com as a cesspool, think of them more like filters. Say you've got 100 guys who buy brand new Bushmaster AR15s at the gun store or show, and go home to learn more online. 95 of them will find AR15.com, buy some cool-guy gadgets, post pictures of them and be perfectly happy shooting them twice a year. 4 of them will buy some gadgets, shoot a lot, read about some techniques, be confident they know enough and be happy shooting them every few months. That last guy will realize he knows nothing, and that most of they people on Arf know nothing, end up over here, seek out training and first hand experience from proven sources, and really grow as a shooter.
Every good board starts out small, and if they stay relatively small, they'll stay good. I used to be pretty active on a rock-crawling board that was small, close-knit, and chock-full of the guys who were really on the cutting edge of modifications and rig building. GD was a place to hang out while you were waiting for someone to reply to your technical question (and since everyone knew each other, that place was great fun, not mindless posting). Fast forward 5 years, there are 84,000 members, a paid membership system, GD is the main draw, new posts disappear down the page faster than you can read them, and I rarely visit. (One smart thing they did do upon growing is that GD posts don't add to post count.)
I hope M4C continues to evolve, but I hope it never grows like that. Some of the rules and moderation issues may seem over the top to people now...but if it fends off that barbarian hordes, it's worth it.
A couple other thoughts...forums can be a great source for political alerts, mobilizing letter or phone campaigns, etc. Everybody who gets on AR15.com, and starts buying ARs, is another American with a vested interest in keeping them legal, accessible, and affordable; another voice to be raised in defense of liberty (an idealistic view, I know).
I also think that while there are a ton of goobers buying parts they don't necessarily need or have a clue how to utilize, all that extra commerce has got to be good for product and business growth and development. How long would it take for a product like the $200 Magpul stock infiltrate the market if they had to rely on Delta Force catalogs and gun rag reviews? The me-too consumerism that drives every Arfcom picture thread is helping put new products and companies on the map. Think about how much product innovation has happened in the past 5-7 years...
Crap, that's a long post. Sorry.
LukeMacGillie
12-17-06, 17:07
This quote, from Bhor_Adam on TOS pretty much sums it up.
By way of context its speaking about folks bitching about the rescue of the 3 lost climbers in Oregon:
"However, you are making the mistake of applying reason and logic to a all-too-typical "I'm ignorant and proud" arfcom bashfest. Facts as to actual procedures mean nothing - all of these keyboard warriors are ready to take to those same mountains tomorrow to take on the evil black helicoper government commandos, and they know how things really are."
Many sites are full of folks who dont stray far from the keyboard, and who either live vicariously thru others, or bash others who do anything other than post on the net
I usually refrain from airing too many of my gripes, but I'll make an exception.
Doesnt matter where I go, I absolutley LOATH to read the following words in virtually any context.
* Need
* Tacticool
* Armchair commando (or varients)
* Gear whore
Any similar conotations of the above.
Upon reading such words in a post, I usually dont bother to finish reading it. Yes, there are those who buy gear for the sake of buying it, and never use it. There are those who spend a lot of money on weapons and gear, and never do anthing more than bumpfire it 3-4 times a year at the range, and have no plans at all to ever seriously train with it. There are those with no clue at all.
I am not one of them. I get sick and tired of of being lumped in with them, just because I no longer wear a uniform, and didnt get to do anything overly spectacular when I did. My firearms are weapons. I treat them as such and train with them as such. I buy good gear and train with that gear to support my weapons. This is not a hobby for me. Training to more effectively kill someone is not what I consider a hobby, as I am not a sociopathic serial killer. I get enjoyment from shooting as a pleasant side benefit, not from it being a goal.
I do not like anyone teling me what I need or dont need for any particular situation, etc., just like I dont like the govt telling me what kind of gun I do or dont need. Your goals and purposes for your weapons might nt be the same as mine. Therefore, what you WANT on your gun may not be what I WANT on mine to accomplish my goal. This is not to be construed to think I dont want to hear what others have found to work for them or not work for them, and in what context/situation. Quite the contrary, thats exactly what I want to know. Just dont tell me that because you didnt get any use out of a light on your AR at the last fun shoot you went to, that I dont NEED one on mine either. Etc. Etc.
I will shut up now.
The internet does not make people stupid, it just brings all the stupid ones together.
I saw that many of the names a I recognized as being the knowledgeable ones from Arf were posting elsewhere, and I "took the red pill" so to speak.
Damn funny.
:D
You can usually tell what level they're at by what they've posted (i.e. class AAR's, gear or equipment reviews, etc.). Photos tell a lot as well. You look at a photo from KevinB for example, and without knowing his background you can see that the equipment has been extensively used. Look at someone else's photo, and the the weapon doesn't have a scratch on it, not even by the shell deflector. Said weapon is prominently posed next to the (insert brand name here) open folding knife who's blade is shiny new, knee pads without a speck of dirt, or maybe a belt with a dump pouch on the same side as the holster.
:eek:
I think the majority of the hardcore types know who is who, or at least can tell who knows their stuff. They push their "Tier-1" guns and equipment to the limit, then come back for more. They have found out the hard way what brands worked, and what brands failed. They break stuff even from the good companies. You constantly see the same faces at all the different carbine classes taught by the various big name instructors that everyone knows (or should know). You meet them at SAR and SHOT.
Sometimes work has me locked down indoors with nothing else but a computer. When that happens, the well-known "other board" can many times provide more humorous entertainment than YouTube.
My blood pressure issues no longer allow participation in many forums;) .
I used to really enjoy the ability to interact and learn from many or the forums. I have made some great friends on the forums, but the bad has begun outweighing the good. I have simply grown tired of having folks without a clue about subjects having an equal footing with those who have spent a lifetime gaining the experience to discuss the topic at hand.
Only on the internet can a 19year old airsofter tell a career SF NCO in a combat zone to STFU when discussing weapons deployment.............this folks is not reality. Its the same place where folks with zero Military or LE experience can "out" posers and question those with experience with impunity. These folks have ruined a good thing.
I limit myself to here, 10-8, Badlands, and Lightfighter these days. I'll look at other places, but I try to stay as un-involved as possible.
LOKNLOD - I took the blue pill, cause I was scared. Now it has been 4 hours and I need to go see a doctor!! :D :D :p
Grant, don't let GT get to you. I'm pretty sure the whole Tier threads you spawned also spawned this thread. Personally, I see Tiers as a good guide line but you know every time you mention that in the BRC you are going to get hell. I'm juss sayin'. :cool: However, I agree with your general premise of this thread. I don't talk because I have one franken-AR that gave me problems which have since been fixed. I could bash you for selling me the faulty carrier key, but shit happens and it did run 200-300 rounds before that failure. It was a $10 key and is disposable. I could blame you, the manufacturer, or myself. That won't help anyone, instead I'd rather identify the problem and share that information with other newbies that need to diagnose their ARs as well. In the end, it was a great learning experience. Next time my AR goes down (and it will cause none, regardless of "tier," are immune) I will be prepared.
Carry on!
I usually refrain from airing too many of my gripes, but I'll make an exception.
Doesnt matter where I go, I absolutley LOATH to read the following words in virtually any context.
* Need
* Tacticool
* Armchair commando (or varients)
* Gear whore
Any similar conotations of the above.
Upon reading such words in a post, I usually dont bother to finish reading it. Yes, there are those who buy gear for the sake of buying it, and never use it. There are those who spend a lot of money on weapons and gear, and never do anthing more than bumpfire it 3-4 times a year at the range, and have no plans at all to ever seriously train with it. There are those with no clue at all.
I am not one of them. I get sick and tired of of being lumped in with them, just because I no longer wear a uniform, and didnt get to do anything overly spectacular when I did. My firearms are weapons. I treat them as such and train with them as such. I buy good gear and train with that gear to support my weapons. This is not a hobby for me. Training to more effectively kill someone is not what I consider a hobby, as I am not a sociopathic serial killer. I get enjoyment from shooting as a pleasant side benefit, not from it being a goal.
I do not like anyone teling me what I need or dont need for any particular situation, etc., just like I dont like the govt telling me what kind of gun I do or dont need. Your goals and purposes for your weapons might nt be the same as mine. Therefore, what you WANT on your gun may not be what I WANT on mine to accomplish my goal. This is not to be construed to think I dont want to hear what others have found to work for them or not work for them, and in what context/situation. Quite the contrary, thats exactly what I want to know. Just dont tell me that because you didnt get any use out of a light on your AR at the last fun shoot you went to, that I dont NEED one on mine either. Etc. Etc.
I will shut up now.
NO ONE can ever tell you what is best you and your situation. They can however recommend things.
You train and prepare for the worst (as do I). Most shooters on forums view the AR like they view the 10/22 (a plinker) and believe it foolish to train and guy quality gear.
When these two worlds collide (and they do everyday) it never turns out well because each side believes the other is an idiot. The question I always ask, is if the SHTF, do you want to come to my place or the guy that likes to shoot dirt?
C4
FlyAndFight
12-18-06, 13:34
Fantastic thread.
I'll be honest right from the start and say that there are only "2" firearm websites that I frequent: M4Carbine and Lightfighter. (I haven't visited arfcom in months, let alone post there...)
M4 is like a breath of fresh air. I truly feel comfortable with the smaller and sincere group here. I hope that doesn't change. This is my main firearm forum, period. There's a sense of respect regardless of who is posting or if opinions differ. That in itself is priceless.
While Lightfighter has some great info at times, I get easily nauseated from the egos and superiority complex found in most of the posts. Needless to say, my visits are short and infrequent there, usually just to check out the "World Situation" forum, which I find as a good source of information and viewpoints.
The question I always ask, is if the SHTF, do you want to come to my place or the guy that likes to shoot dirt?
Playing devil's advocate....
Most of the people you're referring to don't believe that it will, and quite frankly recent history is on their side. New Orleans is probably the worst disaster (including 9-11) where a firearm may do people any good, and there were no reports that I've heard of where anyone actually used, or for that matter needed, a firearm to defend themselves. Let alone a rifle. Even the reports of violence were in the worst parts of the city.
Prior to that, the next most recent would probably be the LA Rodney King riots where there were actually reports of store owners using firearms, and even rifles, to defend their property, not themselves. If one is willing to give up the property, or simply stay out of the crappy parts of town, that problem goes away.
Let's be honest. Most people will never be the victim of a violent attack, let alone a murder, and even fewer will be able (even if they are prepared) to use a firearm to defend themselves. Whether you left it at home, or got shot in in the back of the head at an ATM, or were unable to draw the firearm, etc. So that number is even more greatly reduced.
The vast majority of Americans (including far too many "survivalists" and "self defense enthusiasts") would be better off cutting down on the fast food, wearing their seatbelt, and quitting smoking. They are far more likely to die due to those activities than they are a violent crime, let alone one that may require defending themselves with a rifle. Just like there is a hierarchy of needs, there should be a hierarchy of survival.
So, while you may survive every single day because you plan and prepare to, and they do so out of pure dumb luck, the outcome is still the same. While you and I may disagree with the way they reach that outcome, they still get there anyway.
Now, with all that said, I still train to defend myself, I still carry a gun whenever I can, and I still keep loaded rifles in the house. I also eat right, excercise, don't smoke, wear my seatbelt, don't do drugs, etc. I stay out of bad neighborhoods, dangerous bars, and crappy cities (like LA, New Orleans, and Miami). But I'm realistic when dealing with other shooters, and have tried to get to the point where I just enjoy their company if I can and ignore them if I can't.
All due respect Rob, thats exactly the kind of mindset I am talking about.
All due respect Rob, thats exactly the kind of mindset I am talking about.
I'm not sure I get your meaning.
K.L. Davis
12-18-06, 20:06
... I "took the red pill"...
I am sure that belongs on the first M4C t-shirt.
Rob S
Let's be honest. Most people will never be the victim of a violent attack, let alone a murder, and even fewer will be able (even if they are prepared) to use a firearm to defend themselves. Whether you left it at home, or got shot in in the back of the head at an ATM, or were unable to draw the firearm, etc. So that number is even more greatly reduced.
The vast majority of Americans (including far too many "survivalists" and "self defense enthusiasts") would be better off cutting down on the fast food, wearing their seatbelt, and quitting smoking. They are far more likely to die due to those activities than they are a violent crime, let alone one that may require defending themselves with a rifle. Just like there is a hierarchy of needs, there should be a hierarchy of survival.
So, while you may survive every single day because you plan and prepare to, and they do so out of pure dumb luck, the outcome is still the same. While you and I may disagree with the way they reach that outcome, they still get there anyway.
I believe that is the Mind set Hawkeye is referring too.
You believe that most people will not fall pray to violence, but yet you carry concealed.
You seem to believe that those who train and prepare will reach the same outcome as those who use blind luck so why bother.
Guys like you are interesting... you believe most of us are posers and waste our time and we should be more like you and train in flip flops and a yellow hat because to do other wise is silly and a waste of time, but yet you attend a Carbine class which is based on how to Fight with a carbine, a weapon you believe will never be needed as SHTF scenarios are few and far between. And a class that is typically attended by "too many "survivalists" and "self defense enthusiasts"
A guy who's proud to proclaim he was banned from 2 major gun boards
I just can't understand how that happened........:rolleyes:
Rob S
I believe that is the Mind set Hawkeye is referring too.
You believe that most people will not fall pray to violence, but yet you carry concealed.
You seem to believe that those who train and prepare will reach the same outcome as those who use blind luck so why bother.
Guys like you are interesting... you believe most of us are posers and waste our time and we should be more like you and train in flip flops and a yellow hat because to do other wise is silly and a waste of time, but yet you attend a Carbine class which is based on how to Fight with a carbine, a weapon you believe will never be needed as SHTF scenarios are few and far between. And a class that is typically attended by "too many "survivalists" and "self defense enthusiasts"
A guy who's proud to proclaim he was banned from 2 major gun boards
I just can't understand how that happened........:rolleyes:
In your rush to be offended, you didn't notice the "playing devil's advocate" at the beginning of the post, huh?
How about instead of attacking me, you put some thought into it and address the points I made.
I'm not saying I think that way, but it cracks me up when guys like you have no response to a post like that other than to attack my attire.
C'mon, debate the issue not the poster.
Playing devil's advocate....
Most of the people you're referring to don't believe that it will, and quite frankly recent history is on their side. New Orleans is probably the worst disaster (including 9-11) where a firearm may do people any good, and there were no reports that I've heard of where anyone actually used, or for that matter needed, a firearm to defend themselves. Let alone a rifle. Even the reports of violence were in the worst parts of the city.
Prior to that, the next most recent would probably be the LA Rodney King riots where there were actually reports of store owners using firearms, and even rifles, to defend their property, not themselves. If one is willing to give up the property, or simply stay out of the crappy parts of town, that problem goes away.
Let's be honest. Most people will never be the victim of a violent attack, let alone a murder, and even fewer will be able (even if they are prepared) to use a firearm to defend themselves. Whether you left it at home, or got shot in in the back of the head at an ATM, or were unable to draw the firearm, etc. So that number is even more greatly reduced.
The vast majority of Americans (including far too many "survivalists" and "self defense enthusiasts") would be better off cutting down on the fast food, wearing their seatbelt, and quitting smoking. They are far more likely to die due to those activities than they are a violent crime, let alone one that may require defending themselves with a rifle. Just like there is a hierarchy of needs, there should be a hierarchy of survival.
So, while you may survive every single day because you plan and prepare to, and they do so out of pure dumb luck, the outcome is still the same. While you and I may disagree with the way they reach that outcome, they still get there anyway.
Now, with all that said, I still train to defend myself, I still carry a gun whenever I can, and I still keep loaded rifles in the house. I also eat right, excercise, don't smoke, wear my seatbelt, don't do drugs, etc. I stay out of bad neighborhoods, dangerous bars, and crappy cities (like LA, New Orleans, and Miami). But I'm realistic when dealing with other shooters, and have tried to get to the point where I just enjoy their company if I can and ignore them if I can't.
In the NRA magazines, there are letters and news releases about people being attacked and using a firearm to defend themselves every month . I guestimate that they are only getting 1% of all the crimes that are stopped because someone used a firearm to protect themselves.
I have been through a hurricane and stranded without power and roads blocked for 1 week. It doesn't take long before people start to lose their civility and thinking about taking what is yours.
As far as firearms and training goes, I would rather have all the skill and knowledge in the world and never need it then to need it and not have it.
Firearms and training = no more victims.
C4
In the NRA magazines, there are letters and news releases about people being attacked and using a firearm to defend themselves every month . I guestimate that they are only getting 1% of all the crimes that are stopped because someone used a firearm to protect themselves.
That is very true, however according to the CDC, homicide for white Americans isn't even in the top 10 causes of death (interestingly, suicide is).
To me (and this is just my opinion), there's a hierarchy of survivability (as opposed to the online survival "TEOTWAWKI" crowd), and good health, fitness, and just plain situational awareness and staying out of bad environments are at the top of that hierarchy. Once you address the issues that are most likely to kill you, you move down and address the next ones on the list.
To get back to the original topic, I believe the homicide rate in America is somewhere around 10/100,000, yet our birth rate is 14/100,000. This means that for every 10 idiots that gets murdered, we're still replacing them with 14 more.:D So even the people that are "clueless" about self defense are being replaced at an increasing rate.
Either way, like I said, I just like shooting with some people, and some people I don't. It really doesn't affect me if someone just shoots for fun as long as they don't bug me about my outlook on survivability, and it doesn't really bug me if someone is preparing for the end of the world as long as they don't bug me about it. Shooters are shooters.
That is very true, however according to the CDC, homicide for white Americans isn't even in the top 10 causes of death (interestingly, suicide is).
To me (and this is just my opinion), there's a hierarchy of survivability (as opposed to the online survival "TEOTWAWKI" crowd), and good health, fitness, and just plain situational awareness and staying out of bad environments are at the top of that hierarchy. Once you address the issues that are most likely to kill you, you move down and address the next ones on the list.
To get back to the original topic, I believe the homicide rate in America is somewhere around 10/100,000, yet our birth rate is 14/100,000. This means that for every 10 idiots that gets murdered, we're still replacing them with 14 more.:D So even the people that are "clueless" about self defense are being replaced at an increasing rate.
Either way, like I said, I just like shooting with some people, and some people I don't. It really doesn't affect me if someone just shoots for fun as long as they don't bug me about my outlook on survivability, and it doesn't really bug me if someone is preparing for the end of the world as long as they don't bug me about it. Shooters are shooters.
You still don't want to be "that guy" that gets killed for not wanting to protect himself. Winning the lottery is EXTREMELY hard to do, but we see people do that everyday.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE to shoot for "fun." In fact, I view training time as "shooting for fun." :D
C4
FlyAndFight
12-19-06, 11:59
Playing devil's advocate....
I stay out of bad neighborhoods, dangerous bars, and crappy cities (like LA, New Orleans, and Miami).
Hey bud, you left out Ft. Lauderdale from your list of crappy cities... ;)
This means that for every 10 idiots that gets murdered, we're still replacing them with 14 more. So even the people that are "clueless" about self defense are being replaced at an increasing rate.
I have to say that you had my attention up until you made the rather crass remark above. I would have substituted the word "idiots" with "victims", but that's just me playing devil's advocate... ;)
Pros of Internet forums:
Opportunity to interact with guys that truly know of which they speak and are willing to share with the rest of us as long as we stay in our appropriate lane (e.g., Pat Rogers, Doc Gary Roberts, WES GRANT, Nyeti, Mark LaRue, Hilton Yam, Tim Lau, Ben Lenett, Ned Christiansen, Scott Mulkerin, Pete Single, Chuck Rogers, Richard Heinie, George Smith, Gary Smith, Stan Chen, Don Williams, Tony Kanaley, Lou Alessi, Rodger Young, Freddie Blish, Bill Harsey, Mick Strider, Ernest Emerson, and many others whose names escape me at the moment...)
Great way to learn about training opportunities.
AARs.
Great way to re-connect with folks you meet at training opportunities.
Opportunity to virtually meet some genuinely helpful folks.
Photos (worth thousands of words).
User reviews of gear.
Never a dull moment.
Cons of Internet forums:
Some of the real experts are old-school and don't participate.
A few bozos are all it takes to dissuade the real experts from participating.
Everybody is an expert (me included).
Opportunity to virtually meet some genuinely PITA folks.
Addictive; suck up a lot of my free time that I should be investing in other activities.
I have to say that you had my attention up until you made the rather crass remark above. I would have substituted the word "idiots" with "victims", but that's just me playing devil's advocate... ;)
I only used the term "idiots" because that seems to be the stance of people that are interested in self-defense towards those that don't. It's ironic that so many in the self-defense community complain that the "sheeple" think they're crazy, and in the same breath talk about how crazy the "sheeple" are.
You still don't want to be "that guy" that gets killed for not wanting to protect himself. Winning the lottery is EXTREMELY hard to do, but we see people do that everyday.
That isn't really the point, but to continue your analogy.....
Being overweight, smoking, eating like crap, not excercising, not wearing your seatbelt, doing drugs, and/or hanging out in the 'hood but all the while training to use firearms for self defense is akin to quitting your job because you think that you'll eventually win the lottery.
Firearms training and preparedness are only part of the equation, they aren't the WHOLE equation.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE to shoot for "fun." In fact, I view training time as "shooting for fun." :D
You and me both. I think the 3 days I spent at the Pat Rogers class this past weekend was the most fun I had in quite some time.
I'm tracking with you Rob. Of all the things that will kill me, I think getting robbed and/or murdered falls somewhere between getting struck by lightning and choking on a chicken bone. I try to mitigate the statitically most lethal dangers: high blood pressure, staying out of rough neighborhoods, wearing my seat belt, watch what I eat, etc.
Of course, most of us got into the shooting hobby for fun. It just so happens that our 'fun' gives us a martial skill as a side benefit. Avoiding the lethal danger of obesity by skipping dessert is far less fun than ringing the 12" plate at 100yds with my trusty blaster.
As for the internet, it brings a greater level of connectedness than ever before. The upside of it is that it brings a lot of like-minded people together that other wise would never meet. The downside is that it connects you with all kinds of loons and goofballs, people you'd never want to meet, people that make you dumber for having talked to them. On the internet, everyone gets a voice, even the shuffling zombie horde.
I'm tracking with you Rob. Of all the things that will kill me, I think getting robbed and/or murdered falls somewhere between getting struck by lightning and choking on a chicken bone. I try to mitigate the statitically most lethal dangers: high blood pressure, staying out of rough neighborhoods, wearing my seat belt, watch what I eat, etc.
Of course, most of us got into the shooting hobby for fun. It just so happens that our 'fun' gives us a martial skill as a side benefit. Avoiding the lethal danger of obesity by skipping dessert is far less fun than ringing the 12" plate at 100yds with my trusty blaster.
As for the internet, it brings a greater level of connectedness than ever before. The upside of it is that it brings a lot of like-minded people together that other wise would never meet. The downside is that it connects you with all kinds of loons and goofballs, people you'd never want to meet, people that make you dumber for having talked to them. On the internet, everyone gets a voice, even the shuffling zombie horde.
Well said. I'll use my treadmill more in the Battle of the Bulge more than I'll ever use one of my personal weapons in any battle.
Oh how I agree with some of you. Take for instant the 280lbs keyboard commando that posts 40 times a day, after a year he becomes a moderator, after 2 he becomes staff. His greatest accomplishment was he served a few years in the Army as a cook in the Airborne.
Funny that his internet creds makes him super commando, black op's weapons expert. Even though he never set foot one on the soil of a battlefield, he'll tell you he was there.
These are the guys I'd like to meet face to face in the darkest of dark alley's with the worst of intentions. But alas this is the internet and even I can be the best of the keyboard ultra Special Op's.:rolleyes:
Robs
This means that for every 10 idiots that gets murdered, we're still replacing them with 14 more.
So Some Fathers 18 year daughter off at college who gets raped and Murdered is an Idiot...
Some Husbands 40 year old wife who gets killed in a car jacking is an Idiot...
Some Grandsons grand parents who get Robbed and killed at Gunpoint while on vacation are idiots....
But I guess that's OK because we have statistics on our side and statistically speaking were replacing those "Idiots" at an acceptable rate......:rolleyes:
That tells me all I need to know about you... no further debate necessary.
Amazingly enough you fall in to a certain statistic associated with gun boards as well.....
I think firearms forums are similar to the firearms industry in that there is a large segment of people involved who claim to be as tough as nails but constantly act like whiny pu$$ies.
This thread is evidence of such behavior judging by certain posts.
Robs
So Some Fathers 18 year daughter off at college who gets raped and Murdered is an Idiot...
Some Husbands 40 year old wife who gets killed in a car jacking is an Idiot...
Some Grandsons grand parents who get Robbed and killed at Gunpoint while on vacation are idiots....
But I guess that's OK because we have statistics on our side and statistically speaking were replacing those "Idiots" at an acceptable rate......:rolleyes:
That tells me all I need to know about you... no further debate necessary.
Amazingly enough you fall in to a certain statistic associated with gun boards as well.....
Jesus H. Christ you are just bound and determined to be offended and not read the whole thread huh?
No further debate needed? This hasn't been a debate since you haven't discussed the points yet.
When you're ready to actually discuss the issue at hand and stop fixating on my attire and stop picking out single words to harp on, let me know.:rolleyes:
K.L. Davis
12-20-06, 11:27
What I get a kick out of (and I have not really seen here) is the false hero worship... I got an email a couple of days ago from a friend, it was a link to a post on TOS where one of the "new resident experts" was pontificating about the great black rifle... and used a large chunk of stuff from one of my tacked post in the tech section. I mean not sort of, or close, I mean cut and paste.
So I have been following that guy and a couple of the new experts that seem to have rose to the surface there lately and it is at best amusing... but the heroes have feet of clay and what is not amusing is that there is a whole host of minions that cling to every word they say.
No matter how wrong it is...
I like this place because when someone posts something that is not right, they are corrected quickly but with dignity, or asked to support what they said with fact -- it gets a little uncomfortable at times, but I have to say that I do not expect to see a three page thread here about the mystery of receiver extension tubes (now not only are there different diameters, but a recently discovered model is slightly longer than most!!!) That is the sort of stuff that makes me curl up in a fetal position and weep for mankind :rolleyes:
Submariner
12-20-06, 11:32
You and me both. I think the 3 days I spent at the Pat Rogers class this past weekend was the most fun I had in quite some time.
Yup, it's fun. But what did you learn?
What I get a kick out of (and I have not really seen here) is the false hero worship... I got an email a couple of days ago from a friend, it was a link to a post on TOS where one of the "new resident experts" was pontificating about the great black rifle... and used a large chunk of stuff from one of my tacked post in the tech section. I mean not sort of, or close, I mean cut and paste.
So I have been following that guy and a couple of the new experts that seem to have rose to the surface there lately and it is at best amusing... but the heroes have feet of clay and what is not amusing is that there is a whole host of minions that cling to every word they say.
No matter how wrong it is...
I like this place because when someone posts something that is not right, they are corrected quickly but with dignity, or asked to support what they said with fact -- it gets a little uncomfortable at times, but I have to say that I do not expect to see a three page thread here about the mystery of receiver extension tubes (now not only are there different diameters, but a recently discovered model is slightly longer than most!!!) That is the sort of stuff that makes me curl up in a fetal position and weep for mankind :rolleyes:
Shocked I tell you! You mean that someone is using the technical info gained here to make them look good on another forum. :eek: Next you tell me that a guy from the UK can steal a GP from a US company and get millions of dollars from investors. ;)
C4
What I have a hard time with is rude behavior. I talk to people on the internet the same way I would talk to them in real life, with respect. I'm here to seek knowledge from people that have valuable input. Finding those people can be difficult because so many are just passing on what they've heard and to the extent that they understand it.
Some of these people create a personality on the internet, and then seem to live their lives through their posts. I'll never understand this, but god forbid you challenge anything they've posted that would cause them to lose face in front of their followers. (Upon reflection, I think Grant understands this far more than I do.)
For example, I commented on something a high post count member of arfcom had said, in a non-gun related thread. This was in an area that I have quite a bit of first hand experience. He was spreading some very poor advice. I tried to enter a discussion about his views and as soon as I did, he just attacked. It didn't take long to realize that he had no wish to debate me as he simply ignored the points I raised in my posts. Realizing that the discussion was pointless, I stated why I thought he was wrong and I dropped off. Almost a year later I made a comment in another thread and he jumped all over me again because he was still mad that I had challenged him.
Ever since this happened, I've been curious about what sort of man he is in real life. Does he treat his co-workers like this? I bet he's as timid as a mouse.
John_Wayne777
01-13-07, 20:31
Playing devil's advocate....
You are correct in saying that the likelihood of any one of us being set upon by a platoon of terrorists packing AKs and suicide vests is fairly remote, and that from a personal survival standpoint people should deal with the statistically more likely threats to life and limb that are an accepted norm in our society....
That being said (and pardon my language) but sh*t happens.
My main worry is not a complete and total failure of the .gov and a resulting mad max future.
Still, I *do* know how easily a short term breakdown in social order can happen. Order will be restored, but in the meantime during a situation like that you are most likely on your own. In a situation like that having a good rifle and pistol and the means to carry some ammo can go a long way to helping you preserve your life and/or property.
No, I may never need my molle setup outside of a training class and frankly I hope I never do....but if I do....
I lurked on a number of forums for a while before I finally joined the 1911 Forum. From there I joined this one and recently joined Tactical Forums. I am intermittently tempted to join 10-8 forums, and while I think I have the credentials to hang out over there, the discussions are so specialized, eventually I would be tempted to say something just because I am a member, not because I really have anything to contribute. To avoid that scenario, I just lurk.
Here's my breakdown:
Tactics and tips: 10-8
Technical data: M4 Carbine
BS'ing about guns: 1911 forum
????: Tactical Forums
I give a lot of weight to how people carry themselves online. In my experience, BTDT people have different personalities, but at the end of the day want to build a better mouse trap and are genuinely concerned w/ helping people because the stakes are so high. Braying, chest thumping, or hissy fits clue me in that the guy in question is probably a punk w/ disposable income. I will argue up to a point, but w/ those types I just tune out because you can't help someone who doesn't want to learn or help you learn.
Here's an example from the world of print. When I was a teenager, I thought Massad Ayoob was the bee's nuts. He had lots of guns and seemed to know what he was talking about. What changed my opinion was when some guy wrote a letter to the editor saying in essence that Ayoob was a wannabe and that he sucked. Ayoob's response was macho swagger "who are you to question my badge and my super gunfighter-ness" (paraphrase). I remember thinking "If I was the ultimate gunfighter and some guy fired off a letter like that, I would be like, whatever dude." My opinion of him degraded from that point on.
So I think there is some great stuff to be had on the internet, you just have to fine tune your BS meter.
John_Wayne777
01-13-07, 21:03
My personal feelings on web forums:
They can be exceptionally useful and can help you network with very cool people. This site is an excellent example of that. Rob actually invited me to join not long after I posted on ARFCOM about the Buick shoot we did at Blackwater in May. As a part of that I got to find out that Hawkeye happens to hang out with some folks I have a great deal of respect for, and as a result he and I have exchanged some ideas, and I have gotten some good tips from him.
You can also find a wealth of good information from people with tons of experience or find out stuff you didn't know. Pat Rogers' posts here are a good resource and experience from folks like that is invaluable.
One of the really cool things about the forums is the ability to talk to folks on the ground in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. When all you are hearing in the press is how bad our troops suck and how poorly they are performing, it is nice to have access to RELIABLE information from people who actually know what they are talking about and who are risking their neck to do what their country asked of them.
Another huge bonus is training. Coming to M4C exposed me to the Vickers AK course I am going to take in March, and I can't wait. I am really looking forward to it. Spending a little time on the web forums convinced me to take my first training course, and I was hooked. It has also exposed me to instructors and courses I wouldn't have known about any other way, like Larry's AK course. It has also exposed some people that SHOULDN'T be trained with.
Are there bad things about the forums?
You betcha.
One of my pet peeves is watching some 37 year old from New Jersey who couldn't get into the Marine Corps tell an active officer in the Corps who led men in Iraq and who helped train Iraqi troops that he and his Marines are "failures" and that he is blinded to "the truth" by his "arrogance"....Because somehow a guy watching MSNBC has a better feel for the situation than a guy who was leading Marines into combat in places like Al Anbar...
That gets pretty old.
I also get annoyed with people who dole out helpful hints like using #4 birdshot for home defense because A. it will blow a bad guy in half but won't over penetrate walls, and B. you don't have to aim with it....Or people who tell you that a .32acp is a good choice in a primary defensive weapon.
Now some of these folks are just misinformed and like rational human beings when you present them with superior information and logic they change their minds. A certain percentage, however, reacts to the insinuation that they don't know all the facts like you said something bad about their momma.
Some people are seekers of knowledge. They listen more than they talk and they are always looking for new ideas and information. Then there are those who are pretty sure they have everything figured out. Type 2 people are the bothersome ones that make web forums unpleasant at times...whether they are calling a Marine "failures" because the Marine won't "admit" that Iraq is hopeless (in other words, won't agree with THEM), or savaging someone for saying that the 5.7 has offered some pretty sub-standard performance in real life shootings, calling Blackwater contractors "mercs"....
They always seem to show up.
Still, I think the good far outweighs the bad. While web forums aint perfect, they do offer lots of information, networking, and sometimes just plain ol' entertainment that you just can't find as easily everywhere else. And as a guy who is forced to spend WAAAAY too much time in front of a computer screen, I am thankful for them.
Heavy Metal
01-13-07, 21:38
Originally Posted By ju***t:
Oh, and PS I don't use the safety on my AKs or my ARs. The only necessary safety is the trigger.
Originally Posted By t-s**:
I know this subject has been done to death but IMO the AK is better and the world has chosen. first dont confuse target shooting with Real full auto combat. The AK can still shoot full auto whereas the AR has had that function taken away and replaced with Burst only. Reason? After a few mags in full auto the AR begins to gunk up and short stroke. In the feild you have to clean it like three freakin times a day. What good is a supa-dupa accurate gun if it wont fire?? Second, Most of the complaints that people have about the AK can be fixed or are just personal preference. Its just that with import restrictions most of this stuff never makes it to the US. A left side safety?? The galil has one, problem solved! Now if we could only get those safeties here in the US. Ergononics? That depends on the person, also the AK can take Plastic just like the AR can. Optics? Well they got this little thing called the Optics rail, you place one on your AK and you can put ANY optics on your gun that you can on a AR. Right side charging handle? there is no real proof that left handed charging is superior. Mag hold open? They have it. All yugo mags can open the bolt on the last round. And as far as "tactical reloads" that right there is a problem with the AR. Sometimes people will not place the mag in properly and it will fall out after one shot, With a rockin mag that is not even an issue. And of course the creme de la creme, Accuracy. I will give the AR that advantage BUT the gap is not as great as it seems simply becuase the AK playa haytas are not gving the AK "platform" a fair shake. They'll compare a 7.62 AK shooting wolf with a AR shooting Lake city. Is that a fair comparison?? Or theyll compare a 20" hbar with a 16" romanian. FAir? i dont think so. AK's come in inhereintly more accurate cartridges so compare those AK's to your AR. Also compare with the same barrel length and width.
Two gems of wisdom I have stumbled upon in the past two days elsewhere.
I think these two individuals knocked over a pharmacy and took an entire year's worth of stupid pills in a single day.
I wonder if these idiots understand the concept of 'self-parody'? They are operating solidly on the frontiers of 'Gunkid' Territory.
What is truly so sad is they don't have a clue how incredibly stupid the content they posted truly was nor how people are laughing about them behnid their back.
Tragically sad.
militarymoron
01-13-07, 22:56
i like internet gun forums like this because i can read and learn about all the cool guns i can own when i'm 18.
MountainM4A1
01-15-07, 12:58
Let's not forget, that these internet sites help promote the sport and right of gun ownership.
The problem with anything people do in a group when they get together is establish a pecking order.
Always gonna be the ones who think they know more than the other guy and so on.
I for one wish we could pass around the correct knowledge in a fair and respectful manner,
AND!
when we are wrong, take it in the same manner as when we are correct.
Playing devil's advocate....
Most of the people you're referring to don't believe that it will, and quite frankly recent history is on their side. New Orleans is probably the worst disaster (including 9-11) where a firearm may do people any good, and there were no reports that I've heard of where anyone actually used, or for that matter needed, a firearm to defend themselves.
I completely disagree. So the people getting raped/killed in New Orleans didn't need a gun? [That's a rhetorical question]
Back on point with the subject of internet gun forums, I guess I'm in the minority. I think internet gun forums are the best thing to happen to the gun/shooting community in a long time. The information that you can share is amazing. I don't read for tactics or shooting as much as just basic gun/mechanical knowledge.
Joe Mamma
I completely disagree. So the people getting raped/killed in New Orleans didn't need a gun? [That's a rhetorical question]
I'm not going to get involved in this other than to say you totally missed Rob's point.
Ron Flowers
01-16-07, 07:00
I run into alot of shooters, who are just that. They know how to use the stuff they have and may not be up to date on the latest and greatest.
I agree 100% with learning to shoot, nothing replaces the things you learn in person-from people who know what they're doing.
Long ago, I went to a school hosted by Hampton PD. It was a Beretta pistol course, At the time, I had a Smith 5906. A retired Chicago PD guy named Jack Manfre taught it. One of the first things he said was that nothing he is going to teach was "his" he taught everything he had learned from others and put it together in a manner that worked. A little bit here and there. That statement alone made me really listen to him, it just made alot of sense!
I've learned the same way, all I know, I've picked up through time and I sort through it all and apply it as deemed appropriate.
From time to time someone will ask "have you seen this or used that? I read this in this magazine, etc" I'm looking at them with this blank face, saying, what?
Those of you who know him have heard this-Does it work? Is it necessary? and Can you duplicate it under stress?
Mark
Mark...that same quote is used by trainers I have a l LOT of respect for...the guys at STS. I have had the good fortune to train with Dale McClellan a couple of times now, and he is great. No ego in his teaching...just straight up good basic technique, tuned to perfection. And his credentials are not to be argued with.
There is no substitute fpor training with good people, but these forums have been very useful to me to learn things like lubing, cleaning, and basic maintenance.
Ron
I would agree with thoise that have posted that there is some good and a lot of bad
I am firmly on board with Nyeti ...I have bailed from several boards where the signal to noise ratio ended up firmly in the noise category
( Or when I realized everyone was talking about airsoft guns and I was the last to know)
I get a kick out of internet commandoes saying " I don't know who this Pat Rogers guy is but he doesn't know what he is talking about"
Militarymoron is spot on as well...some kids DO NOT know the value of listening a lot and speaking little...but they have found the gun boards
But imagine those years before the internet....you got your intel dump from gun rags (yech!) and local trainers (probably)
The internet has made it easier to find training (both good and bad)
The internet allows the voice of reason to (occaisonally) drown out the same tired platitudes that have existed for years
There is good info out there but you need to filter everything (twice)
I can get the straight poop on a new piece of gear without having to buy it and then sell it when I find out American Handgunner got it WRONG!
And it helped me figure out that some pieces of gear were not as bad as the gun rags and local gunshop owner would have you believe
NAd the smile on my face when I try a new technique/gear that was described online and find out it really does work better....priceless!
Two gems of wisdom I have stumbled upon in the past two days elsewhere.
I think these two individuals knocked over a pharmacy and took an entire year's worth of stupid pills in a single day.
I wonder if these idiots understand the concept of 'self-parody'? They are operating solidly on the frontiers of 'Gunkid' Territory.
What is truly so sad is they don't have a clue how incredibly stupid the content they posted truly was nor how people are laughing about them behnid their back.
Tragically sad.
That's pretty funny and sad at the same time. Anyone who's had military time would know the purpose behind replacing FA for Burst fire. Actually you probably don't need military time to find the correct answer but those who have served after Vietnam should know.
My personsal experience with internet weapon forums has been pretty similar to most. A lot of people tend to be really rude if they don't know you on internet forums in general. I would suspect that they are mainly the people who never get to do it in face to face conversation and take advantage of anonymity. I typically only speak when I have something useful to say, add, or ask. It's a good practice on forums and in life to take everything people say with a grain of salt. I'm glad I stumbled upon this forum and see many familiar names from the "other site." I still visit there but it's gotten kind of old overall.
I'll risk saying a couple of things here with full knowledge that my opinion means very little in light of 1) I have participated very little here, and 2) I know for a fact that there are people who specifically dismiss my comments for a variety of reasons.
That said . . . almost all of the complaints about internet gun forums could be applied to a variety of forums that address completely different topic. Certainly there are some elements unique to firearms and shooting, but there is more similarity and difference.
Internet and now the web are like feeding you real life through a fire hose. There isn't anything online that you can in some way find somewhere in meat space, you just can't get it as quickly or as easily. You have to develop filters either deliberately or subconsciously to separate the wheat from the chaff. Well, you have to do that in real life too, but it's a little easier due to the rate at which information comes to you.
Most of the people you encounter online haven't been "here" very long. I'd wager it's unusual to find more than a handful of people who have been using internet for more than ten years. It's even more unusual to find many people who predate easy public access to internet. Behavioral problems among the masses are due, in my opinion, to the immaturity of the entire community. It took our western civilization thousands of years to stop killing each other on sight, and even though the pace is accelerated online, it's going to take some more time for people to learn that they need to behave with respect and dignity if they want to receive the same in return.
Aside from all of that, I think even the most maligned forums present significantly more "good" than "bad." The question is whether or not the reader/participant has the patience as well as sophistication to get what they find valuable from those sources.
HAMMERDROP
01-17-07, 21:00
Grant is pretty much correct on all accounts he posted initially, this thread may have taken several directions but back to his original post , I fell under buyer 1 2 3 4 5 and so on not because I wanted to, or just to hang with the guys on Arfcom which is where I made my first acquaintence w/Grant whom I have declared as my 'Guru' for years now and primarily I try to listen more than talk and listen to him... and have not always followed his advice because I am hard headed but I appreciate what he shares with me negative or positive.
I just wish my cash flow could dictate purchasing 'Tier 1' equipment at all times but I would be the poser with alot of disposable income ... I shoot for fun and to hone my skills at it. I dont claim to be a door kicker or some military black-ops special forces Night Ranger ...but I wish I would have saw the EE on AR15.com before I called RRA way back when. That is all under the bridge now I work with what I have and I feel I have improved greatly what I have. But training at Gunsite or any of the fine schools where defensive survival is taught is out of the question financially it would be a dream you guys want to start a fund -
'Send Mikey to Gunsite and let Pat yell at him for a week '
- so I buy the books I have alot of them I absorb them knowing it'll never apply in my personal life that I'll have to keep a Saudi Royal Member safe during an overhead machinegun assault... thats ludicrous for a guy like me 'BUT I HAVE LEARNED SOMETHING(s).' I know I can have a weapon in hand in a moments notice I know I can defend my wifes life with it - we have trained, rehearsed her and I about what to do if... she has a P239 ( our newest addition a real cutey) stacked with Magsafes .40cal 85gr and I keep a P229 with .40cal Cor-Bons 150 gr HP - hers in her nightstand drawer mine right on top grip down so all I have to do is grab it when I stretch my arm out in my sleep I knock everything off the nightstand anyway so now all I do is grab a weapon - I earn Einstein award on that one... also a Z3 with 120 lumen lamp on the nightstand... I have learned more on M4C than others - products and mudslinging and whose is better and general BS over there and over here respect courtesy and info which is a cut above and some members may think Grant is being crass about certain products he is trying to sell something - yes- but he is trying to sell the best and and sometimes mindsets - CLASH ! He steers no one wrong you just gotta have the cash for him to do his thing. I called him for a barrel a month ago and told him what I wanted and he tried to get me into a Noveske which God Love him he was only looking out for me as he does us all but I did not want it - no disrespect to him I told him it would be like putting a $5000.00 stereo in a $500 car ... he has taught me to respect my own gear to know what is and live with it.
I think a huge issue is the fact that no one wants to read... When I first discovered TOS, I did not even join for the first year. All I did was read the posts and absorb what was going on.. who was posting.. who seemed to have knowledge vs. who was a buckethead.. There were pretty much no questions that I could ask.that had not already been answered.
Just today I was reading a post from a guy who wanted to know about something, and he said that he read the tacked thread and it still did not answer his question. (The thread had over 12 pages) and his question was basically..."What's the Best?"...Arrggghhhh..
"Braying, chest thumping, or hissy fits clue me in that the guy in question is probably a punk w/ disposable income. "
I hope you didn't take my above quote to be critical or arrogant of people that are trying to wring their guns out or get better or both. That was not my intent at all.
I'm with you. I am amazed how people can afford all this training and gear. I need to get my financial crap in one sock and start saving. I have already killed my habit of having 11 pretty good guns instead of 4 excellent ones!
HAMMERDROP
01-18-07, 18:53
No disrespect felt ... a fact is a fact. I go to an unsupervised range near Silex Missouri where a guy can shoot how he chooses if you get there early enough in the morning the entire range is yours which is when I do my - anything but bench shoot - until another shooter arrives I am pretty much free to, with extreme caution run and gun practice live fire draws I can even park my truck close enough and shoot under and around it, and it still has no holes in it. But I do that because it takes the boredom out of sitting at a bench and shooting at a target and albeit JCPenny training it is what it is and only costs gas and ammo and besides I can get dirty. CMMG is having one of their get togethers in February and I may just go to that I hear its a great time, if interested the layout is in the Missouri Hometown Forum on arfcom.
But I price some of the weapons our Bro's here on the site have and I just fall over in shock, but if I had the money it would be me having the same rigs. But I am satisfied with what I have and thats all that matters. But if I ever hit the lottery I'll be one dangerous individual.
Michael
No disrespect felt ... a fact is a fact. I go to an unsupervised range near Silex Missouri where a guy can shoot how he chooses if you get there early enough in the morning the entire range is yours which is when I do my - anything but bench shoot - until another shooter arrives I am pretty much free to, with extreme caution run and gun practice live fire draws I can even park my truck close enough and shoot under and around it, and it still has no holes in it. But I do that because it takes the boredom out of sitting at a bench and shooting at a target and albeit JCPenny training it is what it is and only costs gas and ammo and besides I can get dirty. CMMG is having one of their get togethers in February and I may just go to that I hear its a great time, if interested the layout is in the Missouri Hometown Forum on arfcom.
But I price some of the weapons our Bro's here on the site have and I just fall over in shock, but if I had the money it would be me having the same rigs. But I am satisfied with what I have and thats all that matters. But if I ever hit the lottery I'll be one dangerous individual.
Michael
For many years, I was a under paid, enlisted guy in the USN. I bought most everything used and saved my sea and hazard pay to do it. There is no shame in this and most people would be much better offer buying a used EOTech 551 VS than a new tacpoint. We seem fixated (as a sociey) on needing things to be new.
The nice and pretty FF rail systems, billet this and that and Poly barrels are all well and nice, but the plain jane BCM upper with a Stag lower will put rounds down range just as well for a lot less money. Quality gear is quality gear and it can be found in many different price ranges.
C4
I'll risk saying a couple of things here with full knowledge that my opinion means very little in light of 1) I have participated very little here, and 2) I know for a fact that there are people who specifically dismiss my comments for a variety of reasons.
That said . . . almost all of the complaints about internet gun forums could be applied to a variety of forums that address completely different topic. Certainly there are some elements unique to firearms and shooting, but there is more similarity and difference.
Internet and now the web are like feeding you real life through a fire hose. There isn't anything online that you can in some way find somewhere in meat space, you just can't get it as quickly or as easily. You have to develop filters either deliberately or subconsciously to separate the wheat from the chaff. Well, you have to do that in real life too, but it's a little easier due to the rate at which information comes to you.
Most of the people you encounter online haven't been "here" very long. I'd wager it's unusual to find more than a handful of people who have been using internet for more than ten years. It's even more unusual to find many people who predate easy public access to internet. Behavioral problems among the masses are due, in my opinion, to the immaturity of the entire community. It took our western civilization thousands of years to stop killing each other on sight, and even though the pace is accelerated online, it's going to take some more time for people to learn that they need to behave with respect and dignity if they want to receive the same in return.
Aside from all of that, I think even the most maligned forums present significantly more "good" than "bad." The question is whether or not the reader/participant has the patience as well as sophistication to get what they find valuable from those sources.
I can suck useable info from just about any gun forum. I just prefer ones that I don't have to read through 50 crap posts to get the one good one. Proper moderating and rules that are actually enforced, resolve this problem.
C4
I can suck useable info from just about any gun forum. I just prefer ones that I don't have to read through 50 crap posts to get the one good one. Proper moderating and rules that are actually enforced, resolve this problem.
C4
You're right, but the problem is "proper" moderating. None can be frustrating, but some of the smaller gun-related forums suffer from moderating that is far too restrictive. In my opinion, the latter is worse. There are some notable examples where disagreement with the local "hive mind" isn't tolerated, even when presented in a polite and respectful manner.
It's tough to find the right spot in the middle ground. Some of the individual forums on the big sites do an excellent job. At least a few of the hometowns and clubhouses are excellent in that regard.
Interesting that my exhibit A just posted on this very site.
A carbine class would be a fun learning experience, but for the price of one, I would rather buy another firearm or more ammo. I no longer do security work, I'm out of the service, I have no plans on heading to the sandbox in the near future
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=33022&posted=1#post33021
:D
Interesting that my exhibit A just posted on this very site.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=33022&posted=1#post33021
:D
Some people feel that they know everything they need to know and don't want to spend money on training. I on the other hand, enjoy taking classes as I ALWAYS learn something new.
C4
You're right, but the problem is "proper" moderating. None can be frustrating, but some of the smaller gun-related forums suffer from moderating that is far too restrictive. In my opinion, the latter is worse. There are some notable examples where disagreement with the local "hive mind" isn't tolerated, even when presented in a polite and respectful manner.
It's tough to find the right spot in the middle ground. Some of the individual forums on the big sites do an excellent job. At least a few of the hometowns and clubhouses are excellent in that regard.
As everyone is human, mistakes are often made. People need to get over themselves and realize that it is just a "internet" gun forum and nothing more.
C4
That is very true, however according to the CDC, homicide for white Americans isn't even in the top 10 causes of death (interestingly, suicide is).
Exactly. And thats exactly why you people shouldnt be allowed to own guns in the first place.
militarymoron
01-19-07, 11:16
Exactly. And thats exactly why you people shouldnt be allowed to own guns in the first place.
you talking 'bout white folks? :p
FlyAndFight
01-19-07, 11:23
As everyone is human, mistakes are often made. People need to get over themselves and realize that it is just a "internet" gun forum and nothing more.C4
Brilliantly blunt.
Some people feel that they know everything they need to know and don't want to spend money on training.
But if you read what he wrote, he makes the implication that he doesn't need training because he doesn't think he'll need the gun.
I on the other hand, enjoy taking classes as I ALWAYS learn something new.
I do too.
Thanks for reminding me to make my hotel reservation for my Randy Cain class next month.:D
But if you read what he wrote, he makes the implication that he doesn't need training because he doesn't think he'll need the gun.
I do too.
Thanks for reminding me to make my hotel reservation for my Randy Cain class next month.:D
I simply gathered that he has had a lot of training and doesn't need any more.
Anyone that believes that they don't need a gun to protect themselves or overthrow the Govt is a fool.
C4
As everyone is human, mistakes are often made. People need to get over themselves and realize that it is just a "internet" gun forum and nothing more.
C4
Which seems to apply to the genesis of this topic as well, doesn't it?
Which seems to apply to the genesis of this topic as well, doesn't it?
It could if people are getting wrapped around the axle.
C4
This thread had been enjoyable with all the directions it has taken.
I am an average guy, who likes to shoot and have fun. I've had a few good training courses, and a few bad ones. My goals for these are usually to have fun, and learn skills that I am likely never going to need.
If I had more time to devote to shooting, I would. But I simply don't have as much time to try things out for myself. End result is that I would be years behind where I am now if I didn't have as much access to 2nd hand information. I take 2nd hand info at face value, look for trends, and buy things that are recommended as being good and high quality by high quality people. The technical discussions are of most interest to me for this reason.
Thanks to people like Grant, Paul of BCM, and many folk here and on other sites I read, I now have a couple of good guns that I probably wouldn't have had, or known about otherwise.
The value for me in this is that it lets me have more fun, with my gear and the time I have than I would be able to do otherwise. So, yeah, I am getting a free ride/shortcut that many people have spent tons of time, thousands of dollars to get to roughly the same place. I fully recognize that while I might be at the same place, I don't have the same experience or skill development level as others there.
Also, I take training courses for fun mostly. Now I realize that bad things can happen, I had a good friend shot and killed in a mugging a while back. I see the likelyhood of my having to fall back on the training in my toolkit somewhat unlikely in my daily life in the US. If I end up in a place where this happens, I will be better off than most, but not as well off as some.
HAMMERDROP
01-21-07, 02:24
Originally Posted by C4IGrant
As everyone is human, mistakes are often made. People need to get over themselves and realize that it is just a "internet" gun forum and nothing more.C4 ...
I challenge that to a certain degree when I open this forum my commeradery with all M4C members is important to me and I will act accordingly. Besides that ****in' jigglin' authenticator sign on password bastard pissed me off so bad I called (you) Grant to help me log on...eyesight or lack of it with my nose touching the screen and $600.00 reading glasses I still couldn't make out what it was/is. Where else could I call and get help ? Dont bring up the pics OKAY ?? LOL
I am a member of 'just another internet gun forum' in a different Galaxy many light years away, however I'd like to think that M4C-'we' are at least
a cut above the all consuming petty drivel and picture posting that occurs on the Dark Side of the Moon. I feel M4C is close, NOW, to what was happening on the Dark Side of the Moon 4-5 years ago. AR guru's were plenty and answered questions honestly it didn't matter how many 'hits' the thread had it didn't matter if it seemed a stupid question if it pertained to repair maintenence or how to be a better marksman the question got answered (before MODS in the FEEDBACK SECTION were hiring 'Hit Men' to maintain some level of order).
Thats why I opened that site on my computer half a dozen years ago, not to ultimately see people rub what they have (or in reality what they dont have) in the face of the guy who don't but to discuss whatever with intellegent like minded individuals which that site seemed to overflow with, at that time.
Several 'original' squad members of the 'Big Shadow' went their own way and reassembled here and I feel with mutual effort and consideration M4C will survive longer with integrity as an Internet Gun Forum.
.2 cents
Michael
Besides that f**kin' jigglin' authenticator sign on password bastard pissed me off so bad I called (you) Grant to help me log on...eyesight or lack of it with my nose touching the screen and $600.00 reading glasses I still couldn't make out what it was/is.
LOL That's funny. Now that you mention it, I do remember thinking "Hmmm.... I think I can tell what it is."
This forum seems to have everything you can need. What strikes me is that you say you do want to be like TOS. I hear every bad detail about that place. But their are a few people here that do the same things.
Not all of us have the expendable income to train or buy the latest and greatest equipment. But their are a few training snobs on this site. These people have the money, thats great. They even buy handguns like they grow on trees. I do not believe they should turn up their nose at those of us who just get by. If they want to fund a Pat Rogers class for me I would gladly accept it. Otherwise keep it in your pants and stop ragging on the 98% of us who make do with what we can. I guess what I am getting at is turning your nose down turns off alot of people.
mike
My personal feelings on web forums:
They can be exceptionally useful and can help you network with very cool people. This site is an excellent example of that. Rob actually invited me to join not long after I posted on ARFCOM about the Buick shoot we did at Blackwater in May. As a part of that I got to find out that Hawkeye happens to hang out with some folks I have a great deal of respect for, and as a result he and I have exchanged some ideas, and I have gotten some good tips from him.
You can also find a wealth of good information from people with tons of experience or find out stuff you didn't know. Pat Rogers' posts here are a good resource and experience from folks like that is invaluable.
One of the really cool things about the forums is the ability to talk to folks on the ground in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. When all you are hearing in the press is how bad our troops suck and how poorly they are performing, it is nice to have access to RELIABLE information from people who actually know what they are talking about and who are risking their neck to do what their country asked of them.
Another huge bonus is training. Coming to M4C exposed me to the Vickers AK course I am going to take in March, and I can't wait. I am really looking forward to it. Spending a little time on the web forums convinced me to take my first training course, and I was hooked. It has also exposed me to instructors and courses I wouldn't have known about any other way, like Larry's AK course. It has also exposed some people that SHOULDN'T be trained with.
Are there bad things about the forums?
You betcha.
One of my pet peeves is watching some 37 year old from New Jersey who couldn't get into the Marine Corps tell an active officer in the Corps who led men in Iraq and who helped train Iraqi troops that he and his Marines are "failures" and that he is blinded to "the truth" by his "arrogance"....Because somehow a guy watching MSNBC has a better feel for the situation than a guy who was leading Marines into combat in places like Al Anbar...
That gets pretty old.
I also get annoyed with people who dole out helpful hints like using #4 birdshot for home defense because A. it will blow a bad guy in half but won't over penetrate walls, and B. you don't have to aim with it....Or people who tell you that a .32acp is a good choice in a primary defensive weapon.
Now some of these folks are just misinformed and like rational human beings when you present them with superior information and logic they change their minds. A certain percentage, however, reacts to the insinuation that they don't know all the facts like you said something bad about their momma.
Some people are seekers of knowledge. They listen more than they talk and they are always looking for new ideas and information. Then there are those who are pretty sure they have everything figured out. Type 2 people are the bothersome ones that make web forums unpleasant at times...whether they are calling a Marine "failures" because the Marine won't "admit" that Iraq is hopeless (in other words, won't agree with THEM), or savaging someone for saying that the 5.7 has offered some pretty sub-standard performance in real life shootings, calling Blackwater contractors "mercs"....
They always seem to show up.
Still, I think the good far outweighs the bad. While web forums aint perfect, they do offer lots of information, networking, and sometimes just plain ol' entertainment that you just can't find as easily everywhere else. And as a guy who is forced to spend WAAAAY too much time in front of a computer screen, I am thankful for them.
I know what you mean, although I enjoy the discussion and the occasional debate. I have some what given up on the Internet, just tired of being told I don't know what I am doing.
In regards to training, I think the point most are trying to make, is that instead of buying that second or third AR, one is better off spending the money on a good training class for what they do have. Its better to only have one good handgun and one good carbine, and put your money from there on into a good training class or two first, then mags, ammo, and followuo range time/practice thereafter, vs buying another gun.
HAIL-CAESAR
01-22-07, 00:11
First off let me say thank you for all the wisdom I have learned off this board. I have read hours and months and maybe this is my second post. I tend to learn before I stick my dumb foot in my mouth. As I is I used to think Bushy made one of the best rifles as I had luck with one. I've had two Colts that were problem childs and sold them. Now after what I've read on here I know I could have fixed them. Point being I have really learned alot by people that really know and do. Unlike people on other boards that proclaim their intelligance and berate yours. Hence why I don't post much. But here I've learned what really matters and I can build my own quality gun with the right parts for same price as a just as good as gun. I hate spending money on junk and take pride in tools that work and work right. As I use the heck out of them. I tend to shrug it off when the gunshop/range/gunboard commando tells me my Les Baers 1911 are a ripoff because their R.I.A. 's are just as good at half the price. Don't have the heart to tell them it's more like 1/6 th and I buy my components in no less than 5000 at a time. More than most of them will shoot a 1911 in a lifetime. One of the first posts I read was by Pat Rodgers saying what he thought of Bushy and RRA. I thought I had heard that name before and started reading. Boy, was I schooled. I live for knowledge and was hooked. I even read arfcom. But this site was clearly superior in knowledge of people and class. Many thanks to Grant and GotM4 plus many others with attually giving quality info to us unlearned. My new rifle is waiting to be build as soon as the lower gets here. I've bought almost every part off people on this board. Now to get to a training coarse as soon as possible. I've stressed my 1911's knowledge and left out my rifles. Well, enough rambling. Thanks to everyone for sharing their wisdom. It's nice not have to read page after page from 15 year olds or 500 pound SEALS.
In regards to training, I think the point most are trying to make, is that instead of buying that second or third AR, one is better off spending the money on a good training class for what they do have. Its better to only have one good handgun and one good carbine, and put your money from there on into a good training class or two first, then mags, ammo, and followuo range time/practice thereafter, vs buying another gun.
Yep, I agree completely. If I was on a tight budget, I would absolutely take a basic $1200 AR and a basic $500 Glock and take all the classes I could.
I find it ironic when people tell me they can't take afford to take a class, but then bust out with their latest $3k rifle or their latest $2k high-end 1911.
I have found that, by and large, the classes I take at Southern Exposure wind up costing me right about at $1k. Classes are usually around $400-$500, lodging is another $150, and ammo and incidentals puts it up to the $1k mark (I don't count food since I have to eat no matter where I am).
First off let me say thank you for all the wisdom I have learned off this board. I have read hours and months and maybe this is my second post. I tend to learn before I stick my dumb foot in my mouth. As I is I used to think Bushy made one of the best rifles as I had luck with one. I've had two Colts that were problem childs and sold them. Now after what I've read on here I know I could have fixed them. Point being I have really learned alot by people that really know and do. Unlike people on other boards that proclaim their intelligance and berate yours. Hence why I don't post much. But here I've learned what really matters and I can build my own quality gun with the right parts for same price as a just as good as gun. I hate spending money on junk and take pride in tools that work and work right. As I use the heck out of them. I tend to shrug it off when the gunshop/range/gunboard commando tells me my Les Baers 1911 are a ripoff because their R.I.A. 's are just as good at half the price. Don't have the heart to tell them it's more like 1/6 th and I buy my components in no less than 5000 at a time. More than most of them will shoot a 1911 in a lifetime. One of the first posts I read was by Pat Rodgers saying what he thought of Bushy and RRA. I thought I had heard that name before and started reading. Boy, was I schooled. I live for knowledge and was hooked. I even read arfcom. But this site was clearly superior in knowledge of people and class. Many thanks to Grant and GotM4 plus many others with attually giving quality info to us unlearned. My new rifle is waiting to be build as soon as the lower gets here. I've bought almost every part off people on this board. Now to get to a training coarse as soon as possible. I've stressed my 1911's knowledge and left out my rifles. Well, enough rambling. Thanks to everyone for sharing their wisdom. It's nice not have to read page after page from 15 year olds or 500 pound SEALS.
Thanks for your post! We all start somewhere and it is sad when people make fun of others that are trying to learn.
Another nice thing about M4C, is that the members that are experts in their field, are clearly defined with the title "Industry Professional." This lets you know that the info coming from them is GTG. So many times on other forums, you don't know who is who in the zoo and end up getting advice from an airsofter.
C4
This forum seems to have everything you can need. What strikes me is that you say you do want to be like TOS. I hear every bad detail about that place. But their are a few people here that do the same things.
Not all of us have the expendable income to train or buy the latest and greatest equipment. But their are a few training snobs on this site. These people have the money, thats great. They even buy handguns like they grow on trees. I do not believe they should turn up their nose at those of us who just get by. If they want to fund a Pat Rogers class for me I would gladly accept it. Otherwise keep it in your pants and stop ragging on the 98% of us who make do with what we can. I guess what I am getting at is turning your nose down turns off alot of people.
mike
Training = knowledge. It is that simple. If you don't have a lot of money then you save your pennies like the rest of us (cut back on beer/smokes and fast food). Instead of buying a new weapon, you buy a class instead. So there are many ways to save up for a class (which usually only run between $300-$500).
I do not "snub my nose" at people that cannot afford training. I snub my nose at people that believe they don't need it or say they cannot afford it, but buy a new gun every year and indulge in the above hobbies (smoking, drinking , etc).
C4
Business_Casual
01-22-07, 10:37
Grant, Harv, et al,
I think you both make excellent points about training and the Internet.
You know you have read too many posts when you overhear a guy talking at the range and realize you've read his posts online! The conversation is always about how "GI"s did this with the 1911 and so-and-so carried an M14 in Nam or some other such nonsense.
Where I am going with this is that it isn't about the gear. It is your mindset and skill.
The people in the Warsaw ghetto didn't think they'd be turned into slaves and fire-bombed/gassed to death in 1938.
The people waiting to turn left on Dolly Madison (CIA) didn't think they were in a bad neighborhood when that AKM carrying nut job opened up on them. You can't choose where the battle will be, it will come to you.
The bond traders at the World Trade Center didn't think they were in a bad neighborhood when the airliner hit the building, did they? You can't rely on authorities, the people who ignored them and left the building lived.
Ronald Reagan had the best personal detail on the planet and it didn't stop him from getting hit.
I could go on with examples but I think many of you already agree. Maybe training is a waste of money, but it is a better waste of money than a bunch of gear that you didn't have with you when the situation happened.
Those that don't are entitled to their opinions and that is fine with me. :cool:
M_P
Nathan_Bell
01-22-07, 12:32
The internet gun forums that I participate or just lurk in has given me the opportunity to discuss my hobby with the whole spectrum of the user base.
New guy, first centerfire rifle and its an AR wants to "make it better" but doesn't really know what that statement means.
General user, Has owned and worked on firearms for years, likes to tinker and wants to "make it better" thinks this means best of all goodies put on it and taken to range.
Hobbiest, is the level that most seem to reach, the AR is the thing they do to enjoy themselves. This translates to building, buying, swapping, and tinkering to "make it better" so that they (we) can have an informed opinion on most issues on the platform, and make sure that it goes bang instead of click so that our time of study does not appear wasted.
Professional user, for them the AR really is the tool that the above user states it is, but really doesn't believe. Needs to know the system as well as possible in order to "make it better" so the trigger being pulled always produces a bang, not a click, this is to make sure they and their teammates are the ones walking away and the BGs are on the ground.
What I have noticed is that the last two level of users are beginning to realize, or have realized. That the upgrades for the gun should come after upgrades for the brain. This is something that I am slow on doing.
If it were not for the internet I would not have realized all the training opportunites that exist. I would be stuck reading the gun rags, and hitting gunshops trying to find the real deal who could give me pointers. Which is a search akin to the needle in a haystack task.
In conclusion, it is my opinion that gun forums are good for the gun industry as a whole, and allows those who want to advance thier knowledge base though work as well as reading a chance to find the next step to take.
Training = knowledge. It is that simple. If you don't have a lot of money then you save your pennies like the rest of us (cut back on beer/smokes and fast food). Instead of buying a new weapon, you buy a class instead. So there are many ways to save up for a class (which usually only run between $300-$500).
I do not "snub my nose" at people that cannot afford training. I snub my nose at people that believe they don't need it or say they cannot afford it, but buy a new gun every year and indulge in the above hobbies (smoking, drinking , etc).
C4
Grant, I was not directing that to you. You are GTG. I understand where you are coming from. I would seek training before I bought another rifle. The problem is I barely afforded the rifle I have now. Sometimes I cannot afford ammo. I have a decent middle class job that gets me by. But recent health issues in the last 3 yrs have put any extra money out of commission. My point was more directed at the white collar guys who have no spending limits and lots of disposable income. Some of them have berated others on the lack of training which is not fair due to the economic differences. If my income tax check has any leftovers I might pursue a carbine class.
Thanks, Mike
Grant, I was not directing that to you. You are GTG. I understand where you are coming from. I would seek training before I bought another rifle. The problem is I barely afforded the rifle I have now. Sometimes I cannot afford ammo. I have a decent middle class job that gets me by. But recent health issues in the last 3 yrs have put any extra money out of commission. My point was more directed at the white collar guys who have no spending limits and lots of disposable income. Some of them have berated others on the lack of training which is not fair due to the economic differences. If my income tax check has any leftovers I might pursue a carbine class.
Thanks, Mike
I don't think anyone has berrated anyone else. Even if they have though, maybe if they do it enough something will sink in.;)
I still remember my uncle smacking me in the back of the head when I made a safety mistake the first time he took me shooting. That lesson sunk in too.:D
Oh, and there's plenty of blue collar guys on my jobsite that make more money than some of the white collar guys. But you know the old joke about construction workers; whether you pay them $1000 this Friday or $100, by next Friday they'll be dead broke.:eek:
Grant, I was not directing that to you. You are GTG. I understand where you are coming from. I would seek training before I bought another rifle. The problem is I barely afforded the rifle I have now. Sometimes I cannot afford ammo. I have a decent middle class job that gets me by. But recent health issues in the last 3 yrs have put any extra money out of commission. My point was more directed at the white collar guys who have no spending limits and lots of disposable income. Some of them have berated others on the lack of training which is not fair due to the economic differences. If my income tax check has any leftovers I might pursue a carbine class.
Thanks, Mike
I didn't think it was directly at me, but I do push training a lot so I thought I would respond. I understand your position and wan't directing my comments towards you either.
C4
Training = knowledge. It is that simple....
I do not "snub my nose" at people that cannot afford training. I snub my nose at people that believe they don't need it or say they cannot afford it, but buy a new gun every year and indulge in the above hobbies (smoking, drinking , etc).
C4
Hi C4,
Speaking as someone who has only recently "seen the light", I think the training = knowledge thing is right on the money. The catch-22 is that some of those ignorant masses are truly "shooters", they just don't know there is so much info/knowledge/skill that they are unaware of.
Using myself as an example: For 4-5 years I shot in either an IDPA match or a "tactical carbine match" about 2-3 times per month. Out of between 20 and 50 shooters, I would score in the top 5 in about 95% of the matches. BUT a carbine match where you run 200 rds through your AR in 4 hours is a LOT different than a Pat Rogers class where you run 150 rds through it in 15 minutes! A carbine match where you do one or two speed reloads, or transitions, or tactical reloads, or failure drills, or NSR's in the entire match is a LOT different from doing all of the above for 8 hrs a day for 3 days straight.
I simply didn't know how ignorant I was, both in regards to equipment and the use thereof.
Oh God, forgive me for all the stupid cr*p I may have posted in "other forums" over the years! :(
Jay Cunningham
01-23-07, 15:49
Hi C4,
Speaking as someone who has only recently "seen the light", I think the training = knowledge thing is right on the money. The catch-22 is that some of those ignorant masses are truly "shooters", they just don't know there is so much info/knowledge/skill that they are unaware of.
Oh God, forgive me for all the stupid cr*p I may have posted in "other forums" over the years! :(
You and me both, although I have not been influenced by IDPA or IPSC.
Could you give us some examples of the "stupid crap" that you once believed that experience has proven to you otherwise?
Could you give us some examples of the "stupid crap" that you once believed that experience has proven to you otherwise?
I'd rather not think about it.
Hmm... I thought an un-named piston system was the best thing since sliced bread because my direct impingement AR's would never run for more than 200 rds or so without choking. Problem was not enough lube and wrong flavor of direct impingement AR. The piston thing I'd rather not get into, but I will say that HipFiredGun was full o'sh*t.
Mostly the rest was just a lack of actually using equipment, manipulating it, ammo selection, and not truly understanding how it all works (or doesn't) as a system. When you wear your carbine, pistol, mag pouches etc on your body for 8 hours a day and shoot with a bunch of people who do it for a living (not a hobby), you get a whole new perspective and realize what an amateur you are. I ran about 1400 rds through Pat's class last February and have run about 3000 rds since then practicing what I learned and what I continue to learn. Before, I would shoot less and practice what I already knew.
If nothing else, I have gained a new dimension of respect for people who do all that stuff for a living, and an understanding of what Jeff Cooper meant when he said that "Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician."
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