View Full Version : Full size decisions
Didn't find much info on the USP- the search engine excludes "USP" "HK" and ".45" as too common.
I used to pack a USP .45 full size as my EDC gun. i had to sell it years ago to make room for money on my person. i then went back to my para ordnance p12, which i sold about a year ago because it turned into an unreliable piece of crap and was just collecting dust. That was the last of my big guns, leaving me with j-frames and little BUGs like my keltec and beretta bobcat. i pack my taurus 85 now as an EDC, because i got lazy and only really carry about half the time now anyway.
now that business has expanded outside of my former AO, and I find myself on projects in ever more urban areas, i've decided its time to go back to a large frame auto. my choices are USP, glock 17 or 21SL, or an M&P 9mm (which i have zero experience or knowledge on).
the 9mm vs .45 debate doesn't factor in. i've always been a .45 guy, but i've decided once and for all that my stand is this: .45 is best, but 9mm equalizes in higher capacity. so caliber has little to do with what i get.
I'd basically settled on the 17 until i handled a 21SL at a gunshop the other day- the SL rocks. Then I got to thinking about my old USP and how it's basically the only full frame .45 i've ever shot close to decently- that was one smooth shooting gun. Looks like a guy can still get a slightly used model for under $700 with extra mags.
anyway, i guess the point of this thread is- I don't ever hear much about the USP around here... does the M4C congregation not like USPs? and, aside from comfort level, is there anything i should be taking into account when trying to decide between these 3(4) guns? They all seem to be comparatively priced, they all have good reps, and they all pack plenty of firepower. Is the answer as simple as "grab the first one you see a good deal on?"
if you really liked the USP you owe it to yourself to explore the HK45 or HK45c as an option.....i NEVER liked the USP, but have been very impressed with the P30 and HK45...
the big downfall there is twofold
1) the platforms are relatively new
2) cost....twice that of a glock
FWIW I would choose the G17 out of your choices
I firmly believe with modern JHP ammo in the popular calibers if you get your hits the bullet will do its job....I carry 9mm because I can get follow up hits the fastest and most reliably because I can control the gun and run the platform best....YMMV
if you really like the G21SF it seems like a great gun....G21s used to have various issues, but I believe Glock has worked to resolve those and am unfamiliar with complaints about the SFs
really...what you want....is a G19.....you can conceal it easily, its accurate, reliable, and 15+1 rounds of 9mm
the 19 is tempting, but i want full size- my first EDC gun was the p12, which was actually a really good gun for the first 5,000 rounds, for a box 1911. i never got great at shooting it, though. just whipped around too much for me, which made training un-fun. i had no discipline in those days. when i got the USP, i found i could shoot the shit out of it- nice big ass frame, long barrel, double recoil springs, etc- i could shoot failures all day long. didnt ever have any problems concealing it, either, even as big as it was.
I've never been a big fan of the USP series. Way too large for anything other than duty carry.......but that's just one cop's opinion.
Out of your small list of choices, I would go with either the Glock 17 or the M&P 9mm. However, I am curious as to why you lean to one extreme or the other......9mm or .45acp. You might consider a middle ground with the .40S&W. The M&P is one of the best .40S&W pistols on the market and if I were in your situation I would go with a M&P .40S&W. 15+1 rounds of .40S&W which causes a larger wound cavity over the 9mm(and causes better wounding should the bullet not expand with a larger diameter and semiwadcutter profile), penetrates hard barriers better than the .45acp, practice and SD ammo is cheaper than .45acp, and it is only two shots short in capacity of the 9mm version. Just a little food for thought.
i've never really considered .40 for a couple of reasons, but perhaps mistaken reasons- i've never even fired a 40, so i have zero experience with that cal, and i've always assumed ammo was less available. i'm a tinfoil hat guy who firmly believes the S may hit the F in the near future, and 9mm and 45 will be the most commonly found ammo. 9mm more so.
not so? how common is 40? i know a lot of cops like 40.
ETA: i'm not rock solid set on my choices, they're just what i've narrowed it down to in my own mind. i freely acknowledge my handgun knowledge is piss poor. i train at least twice a month, but usually only 100-150 rounds max from a pistol. which is dumb, considering i don't carry a carbine on my hip.
at least in my area .40 is as commonly available as 9mm and .45....YMMV...I am not particularly fond of the round myself for various reasons.....honestly I think a .45 has less flip than a .40
i think you may really want to consider trying to shoot a G19....if it is considered a "compact" it certainly shoots like a full sized gun....i carry G19s and G17s and, honestly, they are equally controllable...one is just a bit smaller....don't confuse the G19 as a compact that will beat you up because of its size.....it will be very similar to a USP to shoot in terms of controllability, recoil, etc (and honestly will likely be less since you were shooting a full size USP in .45....actually, I feel pretty comfortable making that statement....a G19 is an "easier" shooter than a USP in .45, having owned and shot both)
In terms of availability, the 9mm is number one, the .40S&W is next most common, and the .45acp least common. In law enforcement, the 9mm is the most widely used, the .40S&W comes in at a close second, and the .45acp comes in at a distant third. In the civilian market, the 9mm and .45acp are more popular than the .40S&W because most shooters think in terms of extremes. They either want as much ammo as they can carry(9mm), or they want to make as large of a hole as possible(.45acp). It's really uncommon in human nature for the average person to pick the middle ground in any topic......they always want one of the extremes.
The .40S&W is commonly available from many stores in 155gr, 165gr, and 180gr loads making it very versitile if you want light and fast, or slow and heavy. The 180gr loads feel similar to a hot 9mm load, or a light 230gr .45acp load. There's actually more available ammunition on the market for the .40S&W right now because the civilian market doesn't demand it as much as the 9mm or .45acp. I can easily find good defensive loads in .40S&W right now, while it is almost impossible to find it for 9mm or .45acp.
The most common customer of the .40S&W is law enforcement in which there are some very large agencies like the FBI, ICE, DEA, DOI, and USCG use it. There is even a rumor that the USAF is looking into a replacement for the M9 9mm and they may be making the move to the .40S&W like the USCG did. The .40 is really a more modernized cartridge in that it takes aspects of the lessons learn by LE with revolver technology and applies it to the auto pistol. Such things as a more stubby semiwadcutter bullet design for better barrier penetration and tissue cutting if the bullet does not expand(happens more often than you think), a straight walled case for better magazine feeding, and a thicker deeper rim for more reliable extraction. It did earn a bad reputation early on in poorly supported chambers like the Glock 22/23, but the case design was strengthed to be safe in chambers that are less than supportive. With so many high profile agencies using it, it is at the forefront bullet technology development.
It might be worth it to go to a range and try out a .40S&W pistol or two and see what you think. Some of the best overall .40S&W pistols on the market right now are the Sig P229, S&W M&P, and the H&K P2000.
Why did you limit your selection to the USP? Have you seen the HK45 or P2000?
i've seen them, haven't handled or fired either. i threw the USP into my list because i'm familiar with them, and like them alot. i suppose its time to head into portland and handle some more guns. i hate, hate, hate gunshops.
.40 cal is very common and only slightly more exspensive than 9mm. in my area. You should at least try a few other pistols too. I have a sig p229 in .40/.357 sig and its very concealable with 12+ 1 rounds and it is my 2nd most acurate handgun next to a .22 target pistol. A Beretta M9 is also a good choice.
The USP is still the same gun. I had one for a couple of years and liked it. I prefer the grip and feel of the newer models (HK45c). You may have a completey different preference.
i've seen them, haven't handled or fired either. i threw the USP into my list because i'm familiar with them, and like them alot. i suppose its time to head into portland and handle some more guns. i hate, hate, hate gunshops.
C'mon back to the USP. You know you want to ;)
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj153/Viperguy58/Guns/P1010814.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj153/Viperguy58/Guns/P1010812.jpg
i'll have to go rent a few this week. there's a crappy little indoor pistol range i used to be a member at years ago in portland that, as i recall, has, or at least had, a pretty decent rental selection. a full size example of every major caliber at the very least. probably cost me a Bill to rent a lane, a couple guns, and buy ammo from them (required) but i suppose its worth it to get a real feel.
sort of leaning toward the USP, now.. which was my last choice a couple days ago. forgot how much i loved that gun.
Out of your choices, I'd recommend the Glock 17. It's very much a proven gun, with superb aftermarket support from Glock (which you'll probably rarely, if ever, need, given the G17's reliability and durability).
Glocks are reasonably priced, with readily available magazines and accesssories, and are exceptionally easy to clean and maintain. I would recommend getting one with either Glock or Trijicon night sights-such sights are steel, and more durable than the standard Glock polymer sights. The Trijicon sights have the additional advantage of having a slightly thinner front sight, providing a better "day sight" picture. You can get either configuration from Glock.
Best, Jon
John_Wayne777
03-09-09, 09:06
sort of leaning toward the USP, now.. which was my last choice a couple days ago. forgot how much i loved that gun.
I carried a USP for years and liked it fairly well, especially since I could carry it in single action mode. (The DA trigger left much to be desired)
That being said, with the P30 and HK45 on the market, I wouldn't buy a USP anymore. The HK45 and P30 are the result of taking the basic USP and having genuine experts address the shortcomings of the designs. (The experts would be Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn)
I've spent some trigger time behind the HK45 and the P30 and I like them both quite a bit.
If you liked the USP you owe it to yourself to try out the improved versions before you commit to spending $XXX for a handgun.
Out of your choices, I'd recommend the Glock 17. It's very much a proven gun, with superb aftermarket support from Glock (which you'll probably rarely, if ever, need, given the G17's reliability and durability).
Glocks are reasonably priced, with readily available magazines and accesssories, and are exceptionally easy to clean and maintain. I would recommend getting one with either Glock or Trijicon night sights-such sights are steel, and more durable than the standard Glock polymer sights. The Trijicon sights have the additional advantage of having a slightly thinner front sight, providing a better "day sight" picture. You can get either configuration from Glock.
Best, Jon
certainly seems like it's the most cost effective option.. i almost pulled the trigger on a like-new used one earlier today for $400 bucks, but it was a non-FGR and i figure it's gay to not even have the option to easily attach a light. for $400, though, i really had to think about it.
If you qualify for Glock's Homeland Defender/LE/Military discount program, I believe that the price on a brand new Glock G17 with standard sights (Glock an Trijicon nightsights are available for an additional cost) is $398-and they come with 3 magazines as well. There is also a "trade up" program for qualifying individuals who have an older Glock, where they can trade in the old one and with a minimal cash outlay get a brand new one, I believe with nightsights and in most cases 3 magazines-the Glock Regional LE Rep has full info on the program, which your organizational Armorer/POC can get.
Out of the guns that the original poster is considering, I believe that in addition to Glock, Smith & Wesson also has a individual officer discount program. HK does not.
Best, Jon
I carry a Glock 17 daily. That or the 19 would be my choice.
I sold off my USPs. Too big, too expensive, HK's customer service sucks.
For the price of a USP you could buy the G17, extra mags, holsters, and a whole bunch of ammo.
Advantages of the 9mm over the other calibers are recoil, controlability under rapid fire, and cost of ammo.
Alot of people think they can control their handgun well, but base that opinion on always shooting two handed. If you can't shoot/control the gun at speed one handed, then you aren't nearly as well armed as you would like to believe.
The last time I bought ammo in bulk for my PD .40 was 30-40% more than 9mm, .45 was double the price.
30-40%, or double the practice, for the same money is a very big deal to me.
The Glocks are easy to work on, and very easy to detail strip and clean. This is a big deal for any gun carried close to the body and sweated on regularly.
I had a my HKs apart a few times, they are a Chinese jigsaw puzzle compared to a Glock.
My vote would be for the G17, and an Advantage Arms .22 kit for said pistol.
i didn't ever find the USP difficult to clean, but i've never cleaned a glock for comparison.
i was, again, looking at a 17 today- this one was brand new with 1 mag for $454.. i think if i look harder i can find one with more for less or same. oh, and it was also non FGR.
i'm going to shoot some .40 tomorrow afternoon- I meant to go today if i had free time in the afternoon, and by the time i had free time in the afternoon i somehow FORGOT that i wanted to go shoot and just went home- but i've pretty much decided if I'm gonna back down from 45 i might as well go all the way down to 9. I'd rather have more ammo in my magazine and have it cost a lot less, if I'm gonna sacrifice a brick launcher.
i've seen some great holsters for the 17 over the years.. my biggest complaint with the big 45s was always the lack of GOOD concealment rigs- almost no high rides. i can recall seeing g17 holsters that held the muzzle up practically an inch below the belt line.
i fondled an M&P that i really liked today.. i haven't been too impressed with the balance of these guns so far, but knowing so little about them (having been lazy and doing so little research) it could be I've been playing with the least desireable models. This one was 9, came with three 16 rounders and a holster, and had a long barrel- I can't even tell how you tell what model these things are, they don't seem to have any obvious identifiers aside from physical features. anyway, i dont remember the numbers on the sticker, but it seemed like a good deal for a large pisto with 3 mags, and more importantly it felt right in my thick ugly carpenter's hands.
Not talking about a basic field strip and cleaning, I'm talking about a detail strip, to get goobers out of places like the firing pin channel, etc.
The Glocks are MUCH easier in this regard. I like being my own armorer.
ive never gone that far with a handgun.. i just blast it with lacquer thinner and hot water if the little places get gummed up. :) probably not a good idea with a poly frame, though.
Polymer safe Gunscrubber, if you must.
FWIW, I was the rangemaster/armorer for 320 folks with guns. I have seen stuff blasted into guns by the sprays, so it does not take the place of a proper detail strip and cleaning.
With a Glock you can easily learn to do this yourself.
Re: detail cleaning
I agree in principle with tpd223, it's always ideal to be your own armorer. Knowing how to detail strip your pistol (and put it back together, which is usually the harder half) is a good idea. From my perspective, the primary benefit is that if something breaks, you can fix it yourself.
From a cleaning standpoint, though, it's less important. Any quality modern gun should easily go 10K rounds without a detail strip & cleaning. Even then, most of a gun's internals are either (a) closed off enough to prevent significant fouling or (b) easily accessible when the gun is field stripped. For the firing pin/striker channel, as an example, the easiest way to keep it clean enough to function 100% is to avoid putting solvents and lubricants in there to begin with.
If you're shooting so much that a 10k cleaning cycle means you'll need to be taking the gun apart regularly, then odds are you're serious enough to become an armorer. If not, then just find an armorer or qualified gunsmith and bring the gun to him when necessary.
There is no question that it is much easier to detail strip a Glock than anything else on the market. But for the dedicated user, being dedicated enough to learn how to take apart a Smith or SIG or HK isn't difficult it's just less easy. If a Glock is what works best for you, then the easy of detail stripping is a bonus. If you're a department armorer, it's a godsend. But if you're a serious practitioner, the difference between spending 15 minutes a year taking a gun apart versus spending an hour a year taking a gun apart is pretty meaningless.
... when i got the USP, i found i could shoot the shit out of it- nice big ass frame, long barrel, double recoil springs, etc- i could shoot failures all day long. didnt ever have any problems concealing it, either, even as big as it was.
I bought a new fullsize USP45 a few months ago and I love it. Sure it's big, but it's not a behemoth. Anybody with medium to large hands can shoot it comfortably...and it is a comfortable shooter. It's nice having a pistol with a 12 round magazine of .45's with one more in the chamber.
There's nothing wrong with the big USP. Another factor to consider is the USP45 has been around since the mid 90's. It was well-designed and it's been pretty well de-bugged over the years. It's durable and reliable, While there still may be some little gremlins to crop up in the newer H&K pistols. Remember too that the USP was designed by the good old boys from the H&K engineering staff who really knew their guns, but who are now retired. There's a lot to be said for expert experience when they're engineering and de-bugging guns. :D
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