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View Full Version : AAR: 3/6-3/8 2009 Vickers Tactical Private Class



John_Wayne777
03-08-09, 21:15
This weekend Vickers Tactical put on an invite only class for M4C and invited guests. It was a great opportunity to get to know some of the people behind the screen names, and to interact with some folks in the industry.

Invites were offered to several folks in the industry, but because of logistics problems and even family emergencies some who wanted to be there couldn't. Still, we had a good turnout.

Representatives from Magpul, Magpul Dynamics, Knights Armament, and Daniel Defense attended the course and brought lots of cool stuff to try out.

Daniel Defense's new M4 rifle was there and several of us had the opportunity to spend some quality time with the rifle. It's an extremely svelte and light carbine. The moment I picked it up I felt a sharp pain in my wallet. I wanted one before...now I need one.

Knight's Armament brought a whole host of neat toys in 5.56 (including a neat ambidextrous bolt release 5.56 model) and 7.62 for us to try out including the SR-25 battle rifle and the SR-M110 SASS. The SASS seemed to get the most attention, as everyone took turns putting a couple of mags through the rifle. I'll let KevinB give a final figure on just how many rounds were put downrange with it, but suffice it to say it was quite a few. KAC also brought some very neat gen 3+ NV for the SASS and even a thermal scope for the low light section of the course.

Magpul's own Dr. Drake showed up with the Massoud rifle and PMAGs for everyone. This was my first time actually shooting the Massoud rifle and I liked it quite a bit. I'm not an expert on 7.62 rifles and I didn't get a whole lot of trigger time on the weapon, but it seemed very controllable.

Of course, the REAL measure of a class like this is the swag...and there was some good stuff provided by a number of manufacturers....

Blue Force Gear sent along a number of items including one of their new padded belts, one of their new trauma kits, and some Vickers slings.

Daniel Defense ponied up some cool hats and a couple of Omega rails...one of which I managed to snag during the competition. (More on that later)

KAC provided a number of cool items including some rail systems, a VFG, and a number of hats, t-shirts, and other cool items. Unfortunately they wouldn't give away the NV or thermal gear for some strange reason....

Bravo Company USA provided a mid-length upper and bolt carrier group as a prize for the top shooter....which is a VERY nice prize, in my opinion. They also provided everyone with some nice hats.

As I mentioned earlier, Magpul made sure everybody got at least a couple of PMAGs.

Vickers Tactical provided some new t-shirts.

M4C even got into the act, providing a commemorative t-shirt for this class.


Apparently while LAV was in his lair pondering the possibilities for mischief this class presented him, he came up with the idea of a match to finish things up on TD3. The match would consist of several stages, each made up of a series of drills (and even a written test) thought up by LAV. The results for each stage would then be tabulated to produce overall standings and an overall winner.

Chris Costa of Magpul Dynamics walked away with top honors in the match after performing extremely well on the shooting stages. Chris shot very well throughout the class and managed to claim top spot in a lot of drills. Several of us gave it a good effort, but we usually weren't able to best him. Mark5pt56 was his most frequent nemesis, although a few others took a good run at him every now and then. I won't go into what Mr. Costa resorted to in an effort to psych me out on the point shooting drill.....

All in all, it was a fun three days. I enjoyed getting together with everybody and fellowshipping. It was nice to spend some quality time with industry folks talking guns and gear.

Of course, it's always good to spend time talking those things with people like LAV, DP, and Chris Costa.

Many thanks to M4C, Magpul, Daniel Defense, Bravo Company USA, Blue Force Gear, Knights Armament, DP, and of course LAV for making all this fun and wonder happen.

Others will be along with their own (hopefully better) reviews, pictures (some of them from a Playboy photographer, no less...), and I'm sure some good natured ribbing before long.

SHIVAN
03-08-09, 21:24
I won't miss another one, that's for sure. :mad:

KevinB
03-08-09, 21:41
SASS had 200rds all suppressed shot thru it, no cleaning.

Plus the SR25BR
SMGLee picture.
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/DSCN2608.jpg


We also brought out the SR15E3 Carbine which is our current civilian sale model - and two SR16E3 Carbines (a 11.5 and 14.5) I will wait for more posters - but I want to thank LAV, David Pennington, Va Dinger and C4IGrant for the class.

It was a pleasure to meet and shoot with you (all of the attendees), and it was nice to see companies getting together to participate in a civilian shooting event.

Chris Costa is a hell of a shooter!

costa
03-08-09, 22:05
I just wanted to thank LAV, DP and all the M4 Carbine staff for allowing Magpul, and Magpul Dynamics to attend. It was a great honor and opportunity to shoot with you guy's and work with open and like minded people.

stay safe,
costa

SMGLee
03-08-09, 22:36
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/DSCN2606.jpg

KevinB and Buckfrom KAC shooting on the move.....nothing like a good suppressed weapon... or two.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/_32Y0365.jpg

Costa lighting up the night with is 10.5 KAC carbine with Eric Rice smiling for the camera in the back round. Usually the brake are shot with the M4QD suppressor during low light, but the blast makes for great photo op.

C4IGrant
03-08-09, 22:45
Great class (as usual). Good to shoot with everyone & Costa (aka Costco) was fantastic!

C4

VA_Dinger
03-08-09, 22:50
Quick before I go to bed;

I thought it was an absolutely outstanding class, and I enjoyed every minute of it. Great bunch of guys, great training, and an awesome selection of weapons & accessories from some of the leaders in the business. Let me just say thanks to Larry, Dave, Grant from G&R, Paul from Bravo Co., Kevin and Buck from KAC , Drake from Magpul, Chris from Magpul Dynamics, Mike and Eric from Daniel Defense, Blue Force Gear, and to my fellow M4c mods/staff/friends for making this such a great class.

John_Wayne777
03-08-09, 22:54
Costa lighting up the night with is 10.5 KAC carbine with KevinB smiling for the camera in the back round. Usually the brake are shot with the M4QD suppressor during low light, but the blast makes for great photo op.

That thing is positively brutal without the can on it.

...and that's Eric in the background...although he does look quite dashing by the light of a 5.56...

subzero
03-08-09, 23:41
Last year's AAR here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=12438&highlight=m4carbine

80 degrees and sunny. It's not often I can start working my farmer tan in March.

Many thanks to Vickers Tactical, Paul, Grant, the mods and staff of M4Carbine, Magpul, KAC, Daniel Defense and the rest of the generous sponsors for letting a regular guy show up and see the cool stuff.

Again, different pacing and content from your standard 3 day class. Like every Vickers Tactical class, it ends up coming down to discussing the fundamentals, then executing them under various circumstances. Once again, Larry found a way to take me out of my comfort zone ("But it's comfortable there!") and it was rewarding.

C Products is getting a call in the morning. The 5.45 mags need help like now. Only 12 coils in the spring and it's ~1.5" shorter than a GI, PMag or Lancer spring. Ridiculous. I suppose this is my punishment for moving away from the boring reliability of my 5.56 carbines.

SIMPLYDYNAMIC
03-08-09, 23:42
Really dissipointed that I couldnt make this one guys... As most of you know I have taken on a few other taskings lately that have consumed me until this industry finds a happy place!

Thanks for the invite and most certainly next time guys! heard it was a great class!

Be safe and Charlie Mike...

ToddG
03-08-09, 23:56
Sounds awesome, as expected. Sorry I had to bail. Looking forward to more AARs and photos.

SIMPLYDYNAMIC
03-08-09, 23:58
[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/_32Y0365.jpg

Costa lighting up the night with is 10.5 KAC carbine with Eric Rice smiling for the camera in the back round. Usually the brake are shot with the M4QD suppressor during low light, but the blast makes for great photo op.

I just lost my night vision after looking at this.... I was about to leave the office but I think I will wait 30min or so...

I really hate when he does that! he wonders why I disappear during our night shoots...

FromMyColdDeadHand
03-09-09, 02:30
Flashes of High School again; I didn't hang out with the cool kids this weekend.

Great pics, looks like a lot of fun! I'm guessing that for the night shot pic of Costa, the camera didn't have 'muzzle flash' as a white-balance option.

Any video of what Costa did to psyche out JW777?

mark5pt56
03-09-09, 07:08
Excellent class! It's always great to get everyone together to do some training, have some good times and meet the faces. A special thanks to all of the Industry Representatives, they are a great group of people and enjoy shooting.

Although some may not think so, everyone shoot very well. After a full day doing all of the drills, you could look at the pasters and the hits were all no bigger than a soccer ball.

Hats off to Chris Costa, he's an excellent shooter and a great guy to speak with.

Yes Subzero, if we could've had the video of LAV joking you about the 5.45!

I guess we got a reward from enduring last years weather, we couldn't ask for a better weekend.

Mark

John_Wayne777
03-09-09, 08:57
I should also mention Sam E. (I forget his company name) who brought a PPSH, an MP-40, and a G36C that he let folks (well...me, anyway) play with. He was also handing out some really nice t-shirts provided by his company.

C4IGrant
03-09-09, 09:09
Flashes of High School again; I didn't hang out with the cool kids this weekend.

Great pics, looks like a lot of fun! I'm guessing that for the night shot pic of Costa, the camera didn't have 'muzzle flash' as a white-balance option.

Any video of what Costa did to psyche out JW777?


There were a lot of "cool" kids in this class.

C4

mark5pt56
03-09-09, 09:53
TheKatar has organized a training group based on geographical areas. If you guys can get together and do some periodic training, etc. , it's a great benefit to meet people, have a good time and learn.

Grant does a great thing to make this happen with this Staff/Mod class. On top of meeting each other face to face it also serves to get the Industry guys out there and get first hand feedback on gear and hardware.

Mark

SMGLee
03-09-09, 10:58
Also a huge thank you to Ted Tae (www.tnrmedia.com), he came along and snapped well over 10k pictures for the class.

I just finished batching all 10k last night so I will start putting them on line.


here is the class photo...

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/_32Y2504.jpg

caporider
03-09-09, 11:07
Over 10,000 photos in 3 days? Wow. That's something like 4-5 photos every minute, assuming 40 or so hours total class time. Unless Ted was firing off strings of photos like a sports photog...

Jay Cunningham
03-09-09, 11:13
I had a very enjoyable weekend, seeing old faces and meeting new ones. The weather was beautiful and the quality of shooters was very high. This was my sixth training experience with Larry, and as usual I learned several new tidbits and received reinforcement on some older stuff.


My personal thanks to:


Blue Force Gear


Bravo Company


Chen Lee & Ted Tae


Daniel Defense


David P


G&R Tactical


Knight's Armament


Larry Vickers


MagPul


Sam a.k.a. Maus


Va_Dinger


Weapon Shield


A quick word about Chris Costa of MagPul Dynamics: there's no denying that a lot of eyes were upon Chris; it's human nature for men to gauge other men by both their attitude and performance. Chris consistently outshot nearly everyone in the class and rightfully earned the grand prize of a complete BCM upper. Chris deferred to the second runner-up... I have nothing but good things to say about Chris and I wish him and MagPul Dynamics continued success in their future endeavors.

A final lesson to ponder: halfway home on a 7 hour drive on an unfamiliar new route is not the coolest time for your GPS to just simply die! Always have BUIS and remember that two is one, one is none!

:cool:

C4IGrant
03-09-09, 11:47
That's something like 4-5 photos every minute, assuming 40 or so hours total class time. Unless Ted was firing off strings of photos like a sports photog...

Ya, that sounds about right.


C4

Jay Cunningham
03-09-09, 12:22
Ted's camera sounded like a minigun.

supersix4
03-09-09, 17:50
Daniel Defense's new M4 rifle was there and several of us had the opportunity to spend some quality time with the rifle. It's an extremely svelte and light carbine. The moment I picked it up I felt a sharp pain in my wallet. I wanted one before...now I need one.


J_W777 what is it about this carbine that makes you NEED it? What sets this one apart from the others? I own quite a few carbines and I NEED to know why this is better ;)




BTW: I took your advice on the M&P full size 45, very nice pistola. its the combat tupperware version of 1911s :D

John_Wayne777
03-09-09, 18:01
J_W777 what is it about this carbine that makes you NEED it? What sets this one apart from the others? I own quite a few carbines and I NEED to know why this is better ;)


High quality build comparable to a Colt 6920 in price and QC but with additional features like:

- Magpul MOE stock
- 12.0 Omega rail system
- Optic-ready BUIS from the box

I put a few magazines through the DD M4 and I was very impressed with how it handled and how it shot. If you want a high quality AR build with good quality control and a lot of cool features out of the box, the DD is worth serious consideration, IMO.

Hawkeye
03-09-09, 18:23
Looks like you guys had a great class.

supersix4
03-09-09, 18:26
thanks for the reply JW, I have several DD Omega rails and do like their quality. I will have to look into this rifle.

ErikL
03-09-09, 21:55
J_W777 what is it about this carbine that makes you NEED it? What sets this one apart from the others? I own quite a few carbines and I NEED to know why this is better ;)D


For a 16" gun with; light, forward pistol grip, BUIS, Aimpoint T1, extended free float rail, and sling the rifle felt very light and balanced well with the Magpul CTR stock it comes with. Most 16" FF rail guns usually need a heavier stock to balance the rest of the rifle out when set up like that. Having a T1 on it did help.

The rifle comes with everything but the T1 and I believe the sling.

NCPatrolAR
03-09-09, 22:35
Sounds like you guys certainly had a good time.

The more I hear about these DD carbines, the more I want to get one.

JLM
03-10-09, 00:37
Outstanding gents!

SMGLee
03-10-09, 02:13
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/_32Y7020.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20M4%20Mod-Staff%20Class%206-8%20March%2009/TD2/Dinger.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/_32Y6912.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/_32Y6841.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/_32Y6686.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/_32Y6515.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/_32Y6330.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/_32Y5764.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/_32Y6167.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/_32Y0295.jpg

DocHolliday01
03-10-09, 02:36
Awesome pictures as usual Lee. Looks like a lot of fun.

Larry Vickers
03-10-09, 08:05
Gents

class went well, weather was great, and we all had a great time - doesn't get much better than that

Many thanx to all the sponsors who helped; Magpul, Bravo Company, Daniel Defense, Blue Force Gear, M4C, KAC - I really appriciate it

I really enjoyed having Chris Costa from Magpul Dynamics in the class - first time I was on the range with him and he not only shot very well but was a total professional - well done

thanx as always

LAV

KevinB
03-10-09, 08:19
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/_32Y9015.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/_32Y8985.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/_32Y5896.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/_32Y7785.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/_32Y9570.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/_32Y9231.jpg

TOrrock
03-10-09, 08:39
It was an outstanding class. One week before the class, we had 6" of snow on the ground. We had sunny days of 70* weather for the class. How good does it get?

It was really great seeing the guys from KAC, Daniel Defense, Magpul and Magpul Dynamics, along with friends who live on the other side of the country.

Shooting wise, we had a groupd of extremely strong shooters. My handgun skills still need a lot of work though.

Big thanks to LAV, Dave P., Paul Hotaling, and Grant for setting this up and putting up with us.

Another big thanks to MSAR, who provided me with one of their STG-556 bullpups for test and evaluation. There will be a seperate thread on my experiences and impressions of their rifle in a bit.

Again, great shooting from everyone, great training, and it was good shooting with everyone.

Steve
03-10-09, 09:18
What a crew,

But I'am confused? Eric told me he was teaching the class.:D

good to see costa running the Raven koolaid as well.

I had my first LAV run in this year in Casa grande a few weeks ago and was amazed at the things he can do for a good or great shooter.

Failure2Stop
03-10-09, 10:58
I'm cryin' in my Cheerios about missing this one :(.

Buck
03-10-09, 13:36
Good times were had by all... It was great to see some old friends and to make a few new ones...

B

TOrrock
03-10-09, 14:00
One of the best quotes from the class:



They're going to have to make the Stargate bigger......



:D

SHIVAN
03-10-09, 14:14
C'mon....what was the context Templar??? Were you shooting a P90 too? :D

Irish
03-10-09, 16:37
Great pictures, thanks!

C4IGrant
03-10-09, 16:41
One of the best quotes from the class:






:D


That is good, but this one was better:

Me: Why do you stay in CA with the crappy gun laws?
Lee: I like CA because I can find good Chinese food everywhere.
Me: Aren't you Chinese? Can't you make your own damn food???



C4

SMGLee
03-10-09, 18:53
That is good, but this one was better:

Me: Why do you stay in CA with the crappy gun laws?
Lee: I like CA because I can find good Chinese food everywhere.
Me: Aren't you Chinese? Can't you make your own damn food???



C4

That was a good one,

but I like the hockey stick common right before KevinB had to do a timed shoot....

Fail-Safe
03-10-09, 22:38
Great report!

SMGlee, how did the LMT piston work out?

VA_Dinger
03-14-09, 19:41
FYI: You guys forgot to thank Hi-Point Firearms for there donation of my beautiful hat.

Yeah, I kept it. :D

KevinB
03-14-09, 21:38
well in all fairness, you count about as well as Hi-Point makes guns.... ;)

Class 3 x 6 round mags

Dinger 1St Try 8-5-6

Dinger Second go 7-6-5

Dinger 3rd try....

mark5pt56
03-15-09, 21:27
well in all fairness, you count about as well as Hi-Point makes guns.... ;)

Class 3 x 6 round mags

Dinger 1St Try 8-5-6

Dinger Second go 7-6-5

Dinger 3rd try....

And I got accused of messing with his mags! I think Yrac loaded his mags for the third run:eek:

VA_Dinger
03-15-09, 22:06
Shoot great for two days and nobody says a word. Mess up one drill and get pounded.

:D

I guess I really needed a cup of coffee to wake up that morning.

mark5pt56
03-16-09, 05:02
You see, my method for engagement when you can't count is to shoot all of the targets, many times-even the taget identifiers

I guess the clue for me was when I was in my own world making noise and when I was done, everyone and LAV was looking at me laughing with that "what was that" look.

SMGLee
03-18-09, 12:07
800 plus pictures are now hosted on my photo server....pictures courtesy of Ted Tae, so if you use the pictures, please give him credit...thanks.

LAV M4C class (www.imageevent.com/smglee/sh)


enjoy...


Could this be this year's "you know what" pic?

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/_32Y3616.jpg

John_Wayne777
03-18-09, 12:37
I much prefer this one:

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/_32Y8600.jpg

...and if we're gonna start busting balls....

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/_32Y0168.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/pistoloffuture.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/psyops.jpg

SMGLee
03-18-09, 14:22
Shoot great for two days and nobody says a word. Mess up one drill and get pounded.

:D

I guess I really needed a cup of coffee to wake up that morning.


mess up one drill------TWICE! :D

SHIVAN
03-18-09, 14:49
Dinger, at least there are no professional quality photos of your pirate patch....:eek:

FromMyColdDeadHand
03-18-09, 15:08
1. Is that an M&P pistol

2. After you look at 600 pics you realize that Costa holds a rifle fundamentaly different. You can see his support arm going straight above the line of the rifle when he is shooting. Does he have really short arms or something, or do I just have monkey arms? I can't do that without holding past the end of rifle handguards. Hard to tell from the angle, but is his elbow bent a little?

Great pics

Magsz
03-18-09, 16:38
When you're a cyborg shooting machine like Chris you can make your arms do all kinds of crazy ass things.

Look for his Cameo in the upcoming Terminator 4 movie.

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/4864/terminator1720.jpg

Costas on the ground in this one in modified Urban Prone but in the next scene he gets up and punches Bale in the teeth then speed reloads his primary and takes out the entire Resistance Army.

Woops...ive gone and spoiled the movie.

John_Wayne777
03-18-09, 18:06
1. Is that an M&P pistol


Yup.



2. After you look at 600 pics you realize that Costa holds a rifle fundamentaly different. You can see his support arm going straight above the line of the rifle when he is shooting. Does he have really short arms or something, or do I just have monkey arms? I can't do that without holding past the end of rifle handguards. Hard to tell from the angle, but is his elbow bent a little?


His hold is unique, or at least it is to me. I've seen 3 gunners use a similar hold on the rifle but this is the first time I've seen it in a training environment. As the class wore on several guys could be seen trying out Costa's stance to see how it worked for them. It's hard to see from some of the pictures, but the elbow is bent slightly but the joint of the elbow is kept on a parallel plane to the fore-end of the rifle. It makes a sort of D shape. You can really drive the rifle back into your shoulder with that hold. I like to use the VFG to accomplish a similar goal. In my picture with the suppressed SR-25 you can see that I've only got a couple of fingers on the VFG. I'm pulling the rifle back into my shoulder to steady it for those ~ 170-180 yard shots on the steel. (No magnification being used on the short dot)

Irish
03-18-09, 18:48
When you're a cyborg shooting machine like Chris you can make your arms do all kinds of crazy ass things.

Look for his Cameo in the upcoming Terminator 4 movie.

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/4864/terminator1720.jpg

Costas on the ground in this one in modified Urban Prone but in the next scene he gets up and punches Bale in the teeth then speed reloads his primary and takes out the entire Resistance Army.

Woops...ive gone and spoiled the movie.

Thanks for the great laugh!!! I needed it! :D

SHIVAN
03-18-09, 18:54
I much prefer this one:

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/_32Y8600.jpg

Where are the KAC boys to tell us about the .308 version of their can shown here???

:D

esskay
03-18-09, 19:51
His hold is unique, or at least it is to me. I've seen 3 gunners use a similar hold on the rifle but this is the first time I've seen it in a training environment. As the class wore on several guys could be seen trying out Costa's stance to see how it worked for them. It's hard to see from some of the pictures, but the elbow is bent slightly but the joint of the elbow is kept on a parallel plane to the fore-end of the rifle. It makes a sort of D shape. You can really drive the rifle back into your shoulder with that hold. I like to use the VFG to accomplish a similar goal. In my picture with the suppressed SR-25 you can see that I've only got a couple of fingers on the VFG. I'm pulling the rifle back into my shoulder to steady it for those ~ 170-180 yard shots on the steel. (No magnification being used on the short dot)

Yeah, you can also see how Costa has a similar arm position in his handgun stance - they are perfectly horizontal or parallel to the weapon (which is why ColdDeadHands might have thought his elbows weren't bent since the arms look straight). The way I think about it is he pushes his elbows upwards and bends them a little, such that as the elbow flexes it naturally does so exactly in the horizontal plane. So in addition to driving the gun, under recoil the rifle (or pistol) moves more straight back rather than up and is easier to control.

Here's how I was able to think about how it works --

Position yourself in a traditional handgun isoceles stance, shoulders square to the target. Push your hands out toward the target, then bring them in a little bit by bending your elbows slightly. When they bend their elbows this way, I think many shooters naturally bring their biceps a little closer to their chest and in so doing the elbows are pushed out a bit from bending but also pulled lower to the ground than their hands. So if you look at the shooter from the side, their arms do not appear to be perfectly horizontal and you can see where their elbows are bending. Now imagine the handgun recoiling, your hands/forearms will typically move backwards and up.

Now, punch your hands back out, and this time when bending your elbows, take extra care to push your elbows upwards a little bit (it feels a bit unnatural, at least to me) so that they are in the same horizontal plane as your hands. From the side, your arms should look straight & parallel to the ground. Now imagine the handgun recoiling back/up. Now, you should feel a lot more resistance in your arms against the upwards movement.

In other words, with the elbows positioned that way, parallel to the weapon, in the vertical plane your forearms are kinda locked with your upper arm so provide more resistance to the upward recoil, whereas in a more typical relaxed arm position the forearms can pivot upwards as well as backwards.

So in a rifle stance, when he takes his support arm and pushes the elbow up when bending it so that it is in a horizontal plane/parallel to the weapon, the arm as a whole provides more resistance to upward recoil than if the bent elbow is lower and the forearm is easier to pivot upwards.

Does that make sense? Hard to describe in words.

I've also noticed in the Tactical Impact TV show that Aaron Roberts seems to have a similar type of handgun stance.

FromMyColdDeadHand
03-18-09, 22:51
Thanks JW777 and esskay. I know what I'm doing after the kids go to bed. I'll check out the Magpul DVD and watch Chris do the secondary draw section and see if I pick it up there.

The still shots just give more chance than the video does to look at the particulars of anything.

KevinB
03-19-09, 07:07
Where are the KAC boys to tell us about the .308 version of their can shown here???

:D

SR25QD Its basically a NT4 bored out to allow for 7.62

Robb Jensen
03-19-09, 07:29
Yup.



His hold is unique, or at least it is to me. I've seen 3 gunners use a similar hold on the rifle but this is the first time I've seen it in a training environment. As the class wore on several guys could be seen trying out Costa's stance to see how it worked for them. It's hard to see from some of the pictures, but the elbow is bent slightly but the joint of the elbow is kept on a parallel plane to the fore-end of the rifle. It makes a sort of D shape. You can really drive the rifle back into your shoulder with that hold. I like to use the VFG to accomplish a similar goal. In my picture with the suppressed SR-25 you can see that I've only got a couple of fingers on the VFG. I'm pulling the rifle back into my shoulder to steady it for those ~ 170-180 yard shots on the steel. (No magnification being used on the short dot)

Chris gets his elbow much higher but the forward high grip is pretty much straight from the competition world where speed, control and accuracy is the name of the game.

Here's a pic of 3gun champion Dave Neth (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.dpmsinc.com/team/photos/dave.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.dpmsinc.com/team/dave_neth.aspx&usg=__96t5Ij6EV2AURe1wrDv5lR5POqw=&h=170&w=236&sz=77&hl=en&start=9&um=1&tbnid=VfF3W79KDHiQmM:&tbnh=79&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDave%2BNeth%2B3%2Bgun%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1) using a forward high grip.

http://www.dpmsinc.com/team/photos/dave.jpg

KevinB
03-19-09, 08:06
Ironically that style of grip was what we used in the late 80's and early 90's adding the finger point to the target (which it looks like Dave Neth is sort of doing)
Former Rhodesian SOF guys where teaching us that.

When rails, and carbines came into use it was not really possible to do with the short carbine handguard.

theJanitor
03-19-09, 19:52
this pic intrigues me too. is this Costa's standard pistol grip?

http://imageevent.com/smglee/sh;jsessionid=fh97lp26f1.penguin_s?p=168&n=1&m=36&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3

Robb Jensen
03-19-09, 21:23
Ironically that style of grip was what we used in the late 80's and early 90's adding the finger point to the target (which it looks like Dave Neth is sort of doing)
Former Rhodesian SOF guys where teaching us that.

When rails, and carbines came into use it was not really possible to do with the short carbine handguard.


Well that means one or possibly two things, the Rhodesians are VERY progressive and/or the U.S. is nearly 30 years out of the loop!

I don't recall the U.S. military ever using/teaching this method and my grandpa was issued a 1903A3 and eventually a Garand. My dad was issued a M-14, a M16-A1 and then a M16A2. He too was never taught this method. My brother went into the Air Force in 1993 and became a TACP sometime later (and is still active) He was first issued a M16, then a GAU-5 and now a M4A1 and he's never been taught this method.

I think the major problem in rifle training currently is that the yellow-glass wearers have really controlled the 'training' for a long time (at least in the U.S.).

Magsz
03-19-09, 23:12
Thanks for the great laugh!!! I needed it! :D

No sweat.

I figure we should just call him the Costinator from now on. :D

C4IGrant
03-21-09, 15:40
800 plus pictures are now hosted on my photo server....pictures courtesy of Ted Tae, so if you use the pictures, please give him credit...thanks.

LAV M4C class (www.imageevent.com/smglee/sh)


enjoy...


Could this be this year's "you know what" pic?

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/huge/_32Y3616.jpg


Man this is a FANTASTIC T.I.P. PIC!!!

C4



http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/TIP.jpg

C4IGrant
03-21-09, 17:03
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/TIPb-1.jpg

Damn the "TIP" looks good here doesn't he?? :D

C4

TOrrock
03-21-09, 17:39
Great representation of the "register position".

VA_Dinger
03-23-09, 11:49
I noticed another thing in this class that I've also seen several times in 2009 - handgun selection.

Take this class two years ago and it would have been 50/50 between 1911 and Glock. Now we seem to be getting a better mix of manufacturers. In this class we had three 1911's (production, semi-custom, and a super-sweet LAV massaged custom), 5-6 Glocks, 3-4 M&P's, 3 student HK's - plus Larry's P30, and a damn sweet Beretta. Did anybody notice any other manufacturers handguns being shot?

mark5pt56
03-23-09, 12:24
Big Sam had a P7M8, shot it well.

TOrrock
03-23-09, 12:31
Big Sam had a P7M8, shot it well.


M13 actually, he's had that thing for about 15 years, he better be shooting it well.

:cool:

mark5pt56
03-23-09, 12:36
M13 actually, he's had that thing for about 15 years, he better be shooting it well.

:cool:

That's right, I remember now.

Do you still have that MSAR?

TOrrock
03-23-09, 12:40
That's right, I remember now.

Do you still have that MSAR?


I need to send it back pretty soon.

Are you thinking a putting through a work out at the area formerly known as Blackwater?

KevinB
03-23-09, 14:26
4.5 1911's BTW
Me, ErikL, Ben, MAP, and BuckH day1 till his M&P40 ammo showed up (beg borrowed or stole from Magpul)

TOrrock
03-23-09, 14:34
4.5 1911's BTW
Me, ErikL, Ben, MAP, and BuckH day1 till his M&P40 ammo showed up (beg borrowed or stole from Magpul)

I shot my Springer MC Operator both days as well.

KevinB
03-23-09, 14:44
Of course - sorry about that -- the funky weird rifle you had confused me ;)

VA_Dinger
03-25-09, 22:50
OK, we actually had more 1911's than I remembered.

KevinB
03-26-09, 06:51
Your just in 1911 withdrawl ;)

C4IGrant
03-26-09, 08:28
OK, we actually had more 1911's than I remembered.

Dude, you couldn't remember to load your mags with a certain number or rounds! How could you remember the number of 1911's in the class? :D



C4

MAP
03-26-09, 21:24
Better late than never. Finished my training at Quantico last week and I'm finally caught up. It was a great class / competition.

I want to thank Kevin B. for helping me out when my 1911 went down. Your efforts were greatly appreciated.

My best shooting was with my Nikon. That’s what happens when you don’t get to the range on a regular basis. The full size pics shot at 12 mp are incredible. If anyone wants them let me know.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a89/MAP1911/DSC_4637.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a89/MAP1911/DSC_4634.jpg
Mag porn for those of us trapped behind the lines.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a89/MAP1911/DSC_4512.jpg
Fastest "hammer" of the weekend. ;)

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a89/MAP1911/DSC_4861-1.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a89/MAP1911/DSC_4620-1.jpg

TOrrock
03-26-09, 22:11
Mike, you have done what no one else has ever been able to do.....

You made me look like a rock star. :cool:

Thanks man! It was great training with you again.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Funny%20stuff/thumbs_up.gif