View Full Version : Disengaging the safety on M9
While I have attended quality, formal training. I have never used an M9 during that training.
During what step/stage of the draw stroke is it most recommended for disengaging the safety on a M9? What are the common techniques? During my own dry firing practice from a holster, I do it once the firing grip has come together and the push towards the target is beginning. This isn't the most natural action, because I began tactical shooting with a 1911. However, I assumed that this was the safest way to accomplish the sequence. Though I never thought to ask before now. :eek:
Is it completely wrong to disengage the safety when indexing or gripping the weapon in the holster?
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
NCPatrolAR
03-10-09, 21:09
When using a M9, I carry it with the manual safety disengaged. I sweep the safety with my thumb to insure it is disengaged as soon as I rotate the pistol towards the target.
The only thing that I ever used an M9 safety for was to decock or pulling it out of the holster other than to shoot (I.E. simular to the Sig). Talk about a Monkey and a Football, try to disengauge that small safety with gloves on.
Shit. If you have the safety on with the M9, you might as well not even load it.
I remember some peckerhead over on TOS getting all assed up about seeing a cop's duty beretta that didn't have the safety on. In his pea brain it meant that cops don't have to follow the rules. :rolleyes:
SSS...Snap, Strap, Safety.
That's how they taught us in our academy. The safety was off during the inital upwards draw, before the gun even left the holster. Here's our issued Safariland 280S holster
http://www.copquest.com/23-1030.jpg
Once out of the academy, I carried with the safety always off. I carry my USP the same way, hammer down, safety off.
I should state that I don't carry an M9 concealed, but it is my issued weapon in the Army. I might be mistaken, but I don't believe most "Big Army" leaders like it when Soldiers walk around with their safeties off. I certainly see the benefit. However, the most Army leaders would see it as a huge safety hazard. I was more advising some guys I work with, as I'm getting out shortly, but wanted to pass along good info.
Shit. If you have the safety on with the M9, you might as well not even load it.
Sometimes you have a real gift for exaggeration. :cool:
The main goal is to have the safety disengaged as soon as you practically can without impeding the rest of your drawstroke. For most folks, that means the safety is coming off as the gun is rotating towards the target right before being pushed out. Whether it happens a quarter second sooner or half a second later doesn't really make that big of a difference.
The reason you want to get the hang of disengaging the safety early in the drawstroke is because, as Aray pointed out, depending on distance & circumstances you might not extend the gun all the way or get a 2-hand grip on the gun.
Most people find the easiest way to disengage the safety is to press upwards with the shooting hand thumb. However, if you look at the M9's safety you'll see it has a significant radius on the rear half of the lever. It's actually designed to pop into the fire position when you sweep your thumb down across that radius. Take a little practice but once you get the hang of it, you can disengage the safety about as easily as you would a 1911's. It's certainly not as ergonomic and depending on your thumb size you may want to practice the upward sweep as a secondary/back-up solution.
Plenty of LE agencies dictate carrying 90-series Berettas on safe. The theory, borne out many times in real life, is that at least some of the time during a struggle over the pistol, the bad guy might not realize it's on safe or know how to take it off safe, giving the officer precious seconds to respond without getting shot in the process.
Todd,
It was my assumption (perhaps erroneously) that guns like the M9 were to be holstered in DA mode with the safety off. The long and heavy trigger travel acted as a safety in itself (similar to the glock). Thereby, the operator, upon unholstering would not have to worry about safeties, adjusting their thumbs to hit the safety, etc?
Would this be a viable practice?
Kchen -- Absolutely that is a viable option and was the way I normally choose to carry a DA/SA pistol (hammer down, safety -- if any -- off). But there are certainly arguments to be made for safety-on carry. More importantly, if your pistol has a safety, you need to practice disengaging the safety regardless of whether you intend to carry it with the safety on or off. It's all too easy to knock the safety into the on position during normal activity, especially a slide mounted safety that isn't going to be protected by your holster.
Failure2Stop
03-10-09, 23:43
The main goal is to have the safety disengaged as soon as you practically can without impeding the rest of your drawstroke. For most folks, that means the safety is coming off as the gun is rotating towards the target right before being pushed out. Whether it happens a quarter second sooner or half a second later doesn't really make that big of a difference.
The reason you want to get the hang of disengaging the safety early in the drawstroke is because, as Aray pointed out, depending on distance & circumstances you might not extend the gun all the way or get a 2-hand grip on the gun.
Yup.
Most people find the easiest way to disengage the safety is to press upwards with the shooting hand thumb. However, if you look at the M9's safety you'll see it has a significant radius on the rear half of the lever. It's actually designed to pop into the fire position when you sweep your thumb down across that radius. Take a little practice but once you get the hang of it, you can disengage the safety about as easily as you would a 1911's. It's certainly not as ergonomic and depending on your thumb size you may want to practice the upward sweep as a secondary/back-up solution.
Hmmmm, I am going to have to play around with this technique. I hit the safety lever with the tip of the thumb of my firing hand, and while this works well for me, I am willing to learn new tricks.
Sometimes you have a real gift for exaggeration. :cool:
The main goal is to have the safety disengaged as soon as you practically can without impeding the rest of your drawstroke.
I owned a beretta for a while just to learn the gun a little. I can see the safety sweep on a 1911 but the beretta's is so poorly located... YUCK!
I should state that I don't carry an M9 concealed, but it is my issued weapon in the Army. I might be mistaken, but I don't believe most "Big Army" leaders like it when Soldiers walk around with their safeties off. I certainly see the benefit. However, the most Army leaders would see it as a huge safety hazard. I was more advising some guys I work with, as I'm getting out shortly, but wanted to pass along good info.
The best piece of good info to pass along is to first understand the rules. Last I heard, general military regs for holstered carrying condition of the M9 is round chambered, hammer down, decocker/safety engaged. Anything else is an assumed risk.
It was my assumption (perhaps erroneously) that guns like the M9 were to be holstered in DA mode with the safety off.
Depends upon your agency's SOP. It has nothing to do with the design of the gun.
I owned a beretta for a while just to learn the gun a little. I can see the safety sweep on a 1911 but the beretta's is so poorly located... YUCK!
I was on active duty when the Marine Corps made the change from the M1911 to the M9. We had to shoot the M9 a lot to become used to it.
While deployed, I carry my M9 loaded with the safety off....for the exact reason indicated earlier....poor location of the safety---bad ergonomics, etc.
Plus, I'm used to carrying my SIGs (P229, P239) at home in this configuration.
Hmmmm, I am going to have to play around with this technique. I hit the safety lever with the tip of the thumb of my firing hand, and while this works well for me, I am willing to learn new tricks.
Just made this little clip...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jokrkek5c4s
Use the same motion as you're drawing from the holster. with some practice and "un-learning" the positioning of a frame mounted safety, I feel that this is just as fast.
However, if you look at the M9's safety you'll see it has a significant radius on the rear half of the lever. It's actually designed to pop into the fire position when you sweep your thumb down across that radius.
Thats the way I did it until I was issued some piece of sh*t holster and if you pulled towards your body a little bit as you were drawing from the holster the safety would disengage by it self.
Just made this little clip...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jokrkek5c4s
Use the same motion as you're drawing from the holster. with some practice and "un-learning" the positioning of a frame mounted safety, I feel that this is just as fast.
That is definitely the most common approach and the easiest for most people to learn. For the majority of shooters, it's adequately fast. However, since by definition it forces you to move your shooting hand thumb in the opposite direction when you're trying to establish your firing grip, best case scenario is that you are establishing your firing grip later during the draw stroke. This makes it harder to drive (and follow) the sight straight at the target and will probably result in diminished first shot accuracy to some extent and/or result in a less than ideal grip when the shooting starts.
I was dual armed when I was in the Marine Corps. When we went through shooting classes (we had thigh holsters) we would grip the pistol, drop the hood, pull out the pistol, rotate it (index) while sweeping the safety to fire, and then present it to the target.
Failure2Stop
03-15-09, 11:57
Just made this little clip...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jokrkek5c4s
Use the same motion as you're drawing from the holster. with some practice and "un-learning" the positioning of a frame mounted safety, I feel that this is just as fast.
That was how I was initially trained (many moons ago) to hit the safety, but I found it slower from the holster than hitting it with the tip of the thumb when establishing initial grip.
Todd- could you go into a little more detail about the technique you advocate?
When you qualify on the weapn in the Army or USMC, don't they teach a method of disengaging the safety? If so what?
Thanks
When you qualify on the weapon in the Army or USMC, don't they teach a method of disengaging the safety? If so what?
Thanks
When you qualify on the weapn in the Army or USMC, don't they teach a method of disengaging the safety? If so what?
Thanks
It depends on what kind of qualification you are talking about. Like a regular pistol badge qualification they give you a certain time limit to expend rounds at various distances. This is all done at your leisure and you sweep the safety at your convenience. Now at CQB school they teach you the method of drawing your weapon and sweeping the safety as I posted above.
When you qualify on the weapon in the Army or USMC, don't they teach a method of disengaging the safety? If so what?
Thanks
They don't teach anything in the Army, concerning disengaging the safety. They hand you a pistol and some loaded magazines. Tell you to load a certain magazine, and engage these targets. Qualification is over. Turn in weapon. Not much to it. Pretty pathetic really. In the familiarization training they show you where the safety is, and explain that it is a safety. Only specialized units, in the army, would even practice drawing from a holster.
Thanks Blake,
I worked around some MPs back in the '90s and as I recall, they practiced drawing then racking the slide?
We train that the decocker on the 92FS should always be in the up position and that decocker down is a user induced malfunction...
B
Thanks Blake,
I worked around some MPs back in the '90s and as I recall, they practiced drawing then racking the slide?
Sounds like what the Israeli's do.
Thanks Blake,
I worked around some MPs back in the '90s and as I recall, they practiced drawing then racking the slide?
It is ridiculous that the Army doesn't allow MPs to carry with a round chambered. They are the LE branch of the Army!! Stupid.
I take a sharpie to the red dot so it isn't so obvious the safety is off. Then, when outside the wire, de-cocked, safety off. Back on FOB, safety on (and probably unloaded depending on FOB rules). If anyone sees it and says my weapon is on fire, I say "oops, thanks" and put it on safe until they are out of sight
The Army will always require a safety on DA pistols for no reason (it's in the specs for the general issue on again/off again .45 ACP replacement pistol)...it wouldn't be so bad if the safety was frame mounted and disengaged downward.
]Todd- could you go into a little more detail about the technique you advocate?
The technique I advocate works like this:
Go to a gun shop.
Order a 92G.
Take the 92FS out of your holster.
Put the 92G in your holster.
I'm not really advocating the downward movement technique, just that it's another way to address the issue which is faster if you can learn to do it reliably.
Take your (cleared, checked, cleared again, checked twice more) M9 and engage the safety. Point your shooting hand thumb straight up. Bring it down, dragging it across the back of the safety lever in the process. It should just pop the safety up "naturally" (though I use the word loosely).
Try it with different levels of force and at different speeds. Once you get it, it's not that hard. However, unless you're going to drill it religiously, I'd suggest also adding a second step of verifying it with your thumb once it's disengaged. This is especially true if the gun wasn't on-safe when you started, since the downward movement could, at least in theory, engage the safety inadvertently.
All of which is why I advocate the 4-step process mentioned previously. :cool:
Matt Edwards
03-17-09, 12:44
Before I left the service, I was able to participate in unit trining with CATC. All of the instructors were from a particular SOF unit. They were contracted by the ARMY to do what they do.
With the M9, this is what is taught, and it is simple and forward. "Hammer drop/safe, Off safe, reholster."
Again, they were contracted by the Army to teach the Army. Don't blame the Army. They have the answer to the test. What sub-element leaders do is on them.
Failure2Stop
03-17-09, 18:12
Sorry, back into this thread after a bit of an absence.
Have an M9 stuck to me again- played around with the downsweep vs thumb tip vs upsweep.
If the thumb is kept in the upward position as when pushing the bail on the 6004 as the pistol is drawn I can have the safety swept off before the muzzle clears kydex. I think we may have taken 96GTS's video out of context. Using only my thumb tip I have to reposition my hand if I am using a rotating hood, and the upsweep is just slooooooow, not to anyone's suprise I am sure.
Todd- thanks for the description, even though I didn't get to read it beforehand. :)
Alpha Sierra
03-21-09, 20:25
decocker down is a user induced malfunction...
Agree
hotwheels76
03-25-09, 02:26
I was dual armed when I was in the Marine Corps. When we went through shooting classes (we had thigh holsters) we would grip the pistol, drop the hood, pull out the pistol, rotate it (index) while sweeping the safety to fire, and then present it to the target.
This is pretty much how I learned to do it in the Navy and Army (on my own). It all depends on what kind of holster you are carrying it in though. If it is in a duty or drop leg like a Safariland 6004, I can get the safety/decocker swept to fire before indexing. In a shoulder holster/ concealed holster is a whole different story and it wont probably be swept off until I am indexed. It takes practice and also depends on how big your hands are. That is why when I had the chance I would carry the M11 and not have to worry about any of it.
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