View Full Version : U.S./Mexico Border
Okay, let's get some opinions on what should be done about the out of control situation on our southern border. I'm for military action and I mean serious action. This has to be looked at as a national security issue. Give me a f'n break!... we are the biggest and baddest on the planet and we can't get control of a bunch of drug dealers and border jumpers?!!!
I only owe another few hundred bucks on my LE6921! I'm gettin' a little excited!
Legalize drugs. Nothing else will ever work. I am not even a drug user, and I do not condone the use of drugs.
Not sure if legalization is the answer, but without a doubt Mexico needs to weed out the corruption in all facets of their gov't. I guess we could also argue that if there was no demand in the U.S then it wouldn't be an issue. But, that is the same as the "Utopia" of no guns in the world and no more violence.
I honestly don't know if there is a solution at hand.
A huge reinforced concrete wall would be a good start...
B
Okay, let's get some opinions on what should be done about the out of control situation on our southern border. I'm for military action and I mean serious action. This has to be looked at as a national security issue. Give me a f'n break!... we are the biggest and baddest on the planet and we can't get control of a bunch of drug dealers and border jumpers?!!!
I only owe another few hundred bucks on my LE6921! I'm gettin' a little excited!
Is it true that these things:
http://www.colt.com/law/m4.asp - (which is a Colt 6921 correct?)
are legal in Texas for civilians to own without going through all the NFA requirements?
JediMindTricks
03-11-09, 13:42
-Legalize marijuana
-Build a wall, put up big warning signs in English, and Spanish.
-Give orders to shoot on sight once the wall has been breached.
I think this would be effective, and no one can say they weren't warned.
Is it true that these things:
http://www.colt.com/law/m4.asp - (which is a Colt 6921 correct?)
are legal in Texas for civilians to own without going through all the NFA requirements?
No - 14.5" still subject to NFA.
Business_Casual
03-11-09, 13:49
Here's what I think:
1) A ruthless, non-partisan special investigation of corruption on the USA side of the border and arrests of the US officials participating in the drug/illegals traffic
2) Adopt a rational drug-use policy and pursue reform of our drug laws. Address the prohibition issue. Do the same for illegals and illegal labor brokers.
3) Work closely with the elements of the Mexican government that are willing to address the corruption and crime problems on their side of the border. Help them design and implement public campaigns to name and shame the officials participating in the trade.
M_P
thopkins22
03-11-09, 13:53
Not sure if legalization is the answer...
I think it would be a helluva start. People abused alcohol before, during, and after prohibition...only without it the Al Capones of the world didn't have a reason to shoot other gangsters and LEOs.
American teens are something like 45% more likely to use marijuana while underage than teens in the Netherlands. This could be a clue.
I'm willing to bet that you're far more likely to catch an STD from a prostitute here as well.
Gutshot John
03-11-09, 13:57
Send a couple of SO teams into Mexico against all international conventions (and probably with the tacit support of the Mexican President) and snatch/grab as many cartel heads and soldiers as they can.
Cut off their heads and stick them to posts all along the border as a message.
"Don't make us come back!"
Would never happen but it would work.
Similarly legalize some drugs and eliminate the profit margins of the cartels to the tune of $50B US dollars that flow south every year. The war on drugs has done NOTHING to stop illegal drugs and has succeeded in giving ultra-violent gangs the means by which they can acquire weapons and power.
Canonshooter
03-11-09, 13:58
Take a few armored divisions and push the border a hundred miles south.
Business_Casual
03-11-09, 13:58
I think it would be a helluva start. People abused alcohol before, during, and after prohibition...only without it the Al Capones of the world didn't have a reason to shoot other gangsters and LEOs.
American teens are something like 45% more likely to use marijuana while underage than teens in the Netherlands. This could be a clue.
I'm willing to bet that you're far more likely to catch an STD from a prostitute here as well.
You are 100% correct.
We, as gun owners, should be bright enough to know the prohibition isn't the answer. There is no difference, tactically, legally, ethically between banning "assault rifles" and banning pharmicalogical plants. It didn't work with booze, hasn't worked with drugs and won't work with guns.
Think about it and be honest.
M_P
Actually securing our border would be a great start. Deporting illegals we catch would be a great follow-up. Then addressing the drug prohibition would be a knock-out punch. Yes, the drug issue is a big one, as is corruption, but a leaky border is a national security issue. It must be addressed first.
-B
modern -pirate, etal,
I agree on the drug issue. As to illegal aliens, as long as setting foot in the U.S.A. qualifies one for all know gov't give aways, I really can't blame the border jumpers. And, penalties for hiring illegals should be harsh enough to discourage the practice. In short, it is up to our gov't to stem the tide. Yea right! Be holding my breath for that to happen.
Business_Casual
03-11-09, 14:50
Send a couple of SO teams into Mexico against all international conventions (and probably with the tacit support of the Mexican President) and snatch/grab as many cartel heads and soldiers as they can.
Cut off their heads and stick them to posts all along the border as a message.
"Don't make us come back!"
Would never happen but it would work.
Similarly legalize some drugs and eliminate the profit margins of the cartels to the tune of $50B US dollars that flow south every year. The war on drugs has done NOTHING to stop illegal drugs and has succeeded in giving ultra-violent gangs the means by which they can acquire weapons and power.
Is this a straight-to-DVD movie treatment or a serious policy proposal?
M_P
The recent (non-publicized) cooperation of our federal law enforcement officials with their Mexican counterparts has worked well, and led to the arrest of a major cartel boss last fall and the biggest weapons seizure in Mexican history. Things in South Texas have quieted down since then. I can't speak for the rest of the border.
As long as our country provides the market for illegal drugs, the drug lords will find ways to get it across the border. It's as simple as that. The amount of money to be had pays for guns, ammo, straw buyers, grenades, government officials, you name it.
The Border Patrol has been hiring its own surge of agents lately, but the process takes around 9 months, and they still have to go through the academy. Only 40% or so make it. Their union also controls the amount of time they can be forced to work, and when they take breaks, etc. I have personally witnessed human smugglers wait for the shift change and then send a load of people across the river in broad daylight into the middle of downtown during a very open 4 hour window where no agents were on patrol. Think about it.
As far as sending in the army goes, are you nuts? The last time we tried that, they shot a sheepherding teenage kid in the middle of nowhere West of Big Bend. I live in an area where, as a white person, I'm a 7% minority, and I can guarantee that you can't always tell someone's immigration status by looking at them.
Our law enforcement officers are doing a very good job of keeping the nastiness on the other side of the river. We would all be better off if we voted to send them more money for overtime and equipment and watched a little less Fox News.
It will get worse....I rep. the mfg industry and my job takes me across the river to visit the various plants / customers. Have lots of amigos who go across daily and this is all in my back yard.
This is always a main topic and I'm afraid (imho) the only solution is what solomon is suggesting as much as I hate it. Unless someone can make demand go away, I would like to hear it. Banning booze did wonders for the U.S.A:o:o I don't think this will ever happen so all we can hope for is the war to 'settle' and get back to normalcy....none of this is new, it's just the military is having an affect on the $$$$.
There is a cartel power struggle for the major flow AND there is also a smaller gang war going on for the smaller / break out shipments. This is all for the area they call the plaza which is from +/-Laredo to Matamoros.
So...Calderon has sent massive forces of military to the border and the druggers are using / threatening / paying the taxi drivers & other street pounders (w/CB's) to be their eyes and ears. They are also getting these folks to block/protest at the port of entries and acting like citizens saying the military is not wanted and abusive. (not true) You never know when anything is going to pop up & I'll keep going till my comfort zone is reached.
Still a great place to live, especially if you like to hunt and fish but it really is growing way to fast and has changed a lot since I was a kid.
good fences make good neighbors
thopkins22
03-11-09, 16:17
Beyond dealing with prohibition....
The other thing that would make a serious impact, would be to end the welfare state. Not for illegal aliens...I really doubt that many of them are coming to sit on their asses. For Americans.
Without fat Americans being able to avoid moving and working hard, they'd be forced to fill these low paying jobs that Mexicans have been pouring into our country to fill.
good fences make good neighbors
I hate the fences being built so far.....blocked off a bunch of good dove / whitewing hunting and from what I'm seeing, just handing over the rio:mad: I feel really sorrry for all the land owners / farmers.
Will have to see about the impact...I hope it helps.
Gutshot John
03-11-09, 16:20
Is this a straight-to-DVD movie treatment or a serious policy proposal?
M_P
Funny I thought you had put me on ignore...again.
Given how unserious policy proposals have been thus far as evidenced by the chaos on the border, I'd have thought I was being obvious. The question was what would work, not what the final policy will be.
fruitjacket
03-11-09, 16:40
You are 100% correct.
We, as gun owners, should be bright enough to know the prohibition isn't the answer. There is no difference, tactically, legally, ethically between banning "assault rifles" and banning pharmicalogical plants. It didn't work with booze, hasn't worked with drugs and won't work with guns.
Think about it and be honest.
M_P
The Industrial Prison Complex wouldn't have any of it.
The government won't reqlinquish that 'control' until it gets so bad, public outcry outweighs the lined pockets of politicians.
Solution:
Legalize, standardize and tax Marijiuana. The hemp industry alone would put thousands of people back to work.
As far as the border goes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxBa5bQfTGc
Combined with:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLAIemsdmTM
and I think you get the idea. They are OUR borders. You cross em...that's invasion.
Business_Casual
03-11-09, 16:58
Funny I thought you had put me on ignore...again.
Given how unserious policy proposals have been thus far as evidenced by the chaos on the border, I'd have thought I was being obvious. The question was what would work, not what the final policy will be.
I haven't found the "ignore" button yet, but thank you for the reminder of that "to do."
M_P
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6303176.html
One more strike! Last week an HPD Officer was shot by... you guessed it... an illegal f'n drug dealin' alien! The politicians in this country are worthless. Enforce the immigration laws you bunch of "p"-words! Forget about re-election and do the right thing!
I see a revolution brewing. If the government that some of us elect (not me, not all, and probably not many here for sure) can't or won't do anything about this issue then they are not needed anymore. The citizens that love this country will put it back together!
Gutshot John
03-11-09, 17:03
I haven't found the "ignore" button yet, but thank you for the reminder of that "to do."
M_P
Anytime, though after about 4 times mentioning it, you might want to post a "how to?" in the site forums since you're obviously having trouble.
I'd be happy to help if you'd like.
Send a couple of SO teams into Mexico against all international conventions (and probably with the tacit support of the Mexican President) and snatch/grab as many cartel heads and soldiers as they can.
Cut off their heads and stick them to posts all along the border as a message.
"Don't make us come back!"
Would never happen but it would work.
Similarly legalize some drugs and eliminate the profit margins of the cartels to the tune of $50B US dollars that flow south every year. The war on drugs has done NOTHING to stop illegal drugs and has succeeded in giving ultra-violent gangs the means by which they can acquire weapons and power.
Go read "Killing Pablo" by Mark Bowden. Excellent book and details what happened when the Colombian government took all the help the US offered and went after Pablo Escobar at the height of his power.
I've got a good friend who is a Border Patrol agent and he told me some wild stories ranging from firefights in Arizona to corrupt agents along the border. Money is a powerful thing and almost everyone has a price...
Spooky
Gutshot John
03-11-09, 17:49
Go read "Killing Pablo" by Mark Bowden. Excellent book and details what happened when the Colombian government took all the help the US offered and went after Pablo Escobar at the height of his power.
I've read it and it is a very good book. That is partially the origin of the idea.
The actual origin is what Mexicans used to do to Gringo criminals who would hide out south of the border during the 19th Century. See Dave Rudabaugh.
Biggest scare for me are the rummored terrorists rubbing elbows with the druggies getting into not only the drug trade, but the illegal alien / coyotee biz.
This my friends is bad mojo....if true.
Read Brad Thor's, The First Commandment. He'll give you a little taste of what may be possible in this novel. Good read.
Drug War = Prohibition from my point of view and also a supply & demand issue. At least there was an Amendment to the Constitution stating that alcohol was illegal rather than just classifying it as being such. The Drug War is all about big business and big $$$.
Pretty good documentary I got from Netflix the other night about the failed Drug War http://americandrugwar.com/. I don't agree with everything in it but I believe there's a trailer on the site and it's definitely worth checking out.
losbronces
03-11-09, 23:12
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6303176.html
One more strike! Last week an HPD Officer was shot by... you guessed it... an illegal f'n drug dealin' alien! The politicians in this country are worthless. Enforce the immigration laws you bunch of "p"-words! Forget about re-election and do the right thing!
I see a revolution brewing. If the government that some of us elect (not me, not all, and probably not many here for sure) can't or won't do anything about this issue then they are not needed anymore. The citizens that love this country will put it back together!
There was a shooting of a police officer in Houston last week as well by a Mexican national in the U.S. illegally and once again, a known drug dealer.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/6303176.html
HAMMERDROP
03-11-09, 23:19
Legalize drugs. Nothing else will ever work. I am not even a drug user, and I do not condone the use of drugs.
I am 50 do not partake in weed dope smoke, but I know guys who do so its still available in the middle of the country.
It seems it could in part solve our economic woes by taxation or at least allow taxed farmers/taxed vendors to make some money versus getting the payments on their farms accelerated. By growing it stateside it will eliminate the Mexican import and possibly cease a portion of the violence.
IMO the soil our food in grown in is comtaminated anyway so if some old hippies wanna grow a couple hundred pounds of weed to support their family more power to 'em ...just dont get caught especially by a few of the guys on this forum it will result in you (hippie) being FUBAR.
In all my miles of hiking in Missouri in places where most would not go I have never stumbled across a crop not that I was looking.
But they are there...
And I guess the end result after US harvest and US supplies are bountiful imported weed with no demand gets backed up down south til demand, again calls for it to head North. Then I suppose violence would increase but local law enforcement may get a step up on the cartels. However if the cartels man a hundred thousand soldiers we may all need to lock the doors.
Smugglers who bring in hard addictive drugs which kill should be executed on the spot at the border in broad day light gov't sanctioned. IMHO
Michael
the thing is, the drug runners have nothing to lose. they are running from poverty with 25k worth of pot, and if they don't get caught? They are in the USA. If they do get caught? They get 3 square meals a day and a place to live on OUR tax dollars.
I say defend it like the DMZ that divides N&S Korea. Mine fields, guys in towers that shoot to kill, etc... AND deport illegals.
OR
give me a guarantee that I won't be charged with any crimes, some NVGs, and as much ammo as I need and I will go down there and pick them off as they run, and I will do it for FREE. Im sure many others would do the same. Let the people defend our country!
Once word got back there that we are killing instead of providing, im sure it will slow down if not stop.
With that guarantee I think I could manage to contribute a day a week to join that organized hunt.
I like the DMZ idea. Build towers every 1000' and man them with qualified payed volunteers with a guarantee that they will not be prosecuted for shooting someone trying to breech our border. Set it up just like FOB security in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'd gladly be part of that.
Good grief....just got a call from a reporter from the NY times:eek::eek: Wanted to talk about Mexico violence / drugs / guns. Against my better judgement, I gave him my thoughts & we'll see when / if any article comes out.
Said he had a list of ffl's along the border & I told no way can he use my name. We discussed legalization & he agrees with me it is the only way to get the bad guys out of the loop....so it will be interesting to see how that angle is shown.
I understand (in most cases) there is no way to have a liberal reporter be a good guy for the 2nd ammendment cause, nor can you explain it to anyone who has made up their mind and convince them otherwise. Mostly curious to how my words will get twisted:D
Just got finished reading "The Next 100 Years" by George Friedman, founder of STRATFOR.
Fascinating book, in which the Mexican drug cartels are compared to organized crime in US in the last century. Illegal drug moneys are invested in legitimate business and in a generation or two is completely legit. If that sounds familiar, think about movies Godfather 1,2, & 3.
More disturbing, is the impact to US of the money drain. We're talking some serious sums. And of course this is empowering the cartels.
BTW Friedman opines that ultimately US and Mexico will have serious issues as population of US Southwest is increasingly of Mexican descent, while retaining ties to homeland, i.e. US citizens with stronger identity to Mexico. Think of the problems with Quebec separatism in Canada, but with homeland across the river.
This all happens at the same time that Mexico ascends in ranking in world economies. You guessed it: financed in part by the now legitimate drug money.
We live in interesting times, that may get more interesting.
Stay safe.
legalizing pot wont make the bad guys go away ! it will just make them legit
this has been proven in quite a few things and in Amsterdam or where ever that is ?
one of our relatives lives their and the bad guys are now legit and still control it and still cheat the system
sadly legalizing it to take some money out of it and tax the heck out of it then make it so if you are caught with non taxed legal weed or selling it you get mega fines !!!
heck I know when I lived in Honduras it was clear in every place if you get caught you spend 25 years in jail no questions asked !!!
maybe then it would take a while and a few new jails but it would slow it down a lot
variablebinary
03-12-09, 15:19
Give the landowners and ranchers a green light to defend their land by any means needed.
Recruit an armed militia to patrol the border. I can promise you the turnout would be huge and people would do it for free.
Make both groups immune to all civil litigation
The problem would be fixed without a few months. No fence needed
legalizing pot wont make the bad guys go away ! it will just make them legit
...but do you think it would slow down the illegal gun traffic?? If they go legit, would they still be fighting (w/ viloence) over the routes?? Can legalization stop/curb the killing associated with current trade?? Obviously, Calderon's military presense is having a positive affect on slowing down their biz as usual but has had a negative affect as they go to war (in regards to gun demand).
I'm not saying I like it.....I just don't know any other way / suggestion for a solution to the crime assiciated with it in it's current form & the gun traffic going south. We will never stop the demand of consumption of drugs but I would think legalization would curb demand for the guns, or am I all wet??
Great post ldm.
Gutshot John
03-12-09, 15:26
legalizing pot wont make the bad guys go away ! it will just make them legit
this has been proven in quite a few things and in Amsterdam or where ever that is ?
one of our relatives lives their and the bad guys are now legit and still control it and still cheat the system
Respectfully you're missing the point. Please see prohibition. Likewise have you been to Amsterdam? I have and there is no comparison between the drug violence there and here. I would walk in any street in Amstrerdam at any time of night, before id walk three blocks down from my house. We have a failed state on our border and it has gotten WORSE, not BETTER since the "War on Drugs" began.
Legalizing pot will eliminate the profit margin of illegal drugs. You make something illegal you increase it's value to the criminal underworld to be garnered on the black market. You get rid of the black market, you get rid of the profits that fund organized crime. It's basic economics..with demand there will always be a supply...the "war" on drugs has done nothing to stop that demand. The only alternative to reducing the costs (and the cartel profit margins) is to increase supply, by legalization and taxation.
Like cigarettes and booze (even taxed at several thousand percent) drugs will be cheaper, and 99% people will pay the tax. Those that don't will be prosecuted for tax evasion.
When you have $50billion flowing south due to illegal drugs, more than twice what Mexican Immigrants (legal or otherwise) send back to their families, prohibition of drugs/pot has obviously failed miserably and is only an excuse for government agencies to secure funding from the congress...for a "war" they have been losing for 30+ years, with ZERO appreciable impact on drugs...other than to increase their use.
At some point we have to step back and say this isn't working and maybe it's time to try a different approach. Put a sunset provision of 10 years on it if you like. If it works, and violence is decreased, make it permanent later, if it doesn't than we won't be any worse off than we are now.
Respectfully you're missing the point. Please see prohibition. Likewise have you been to Amsterdam? I have and there is no comparison between the drug violence there and here. I would walk in any street in Amstrerdam at any time of night, before id walk three blocks down from my house. We have a failed state on our border and it has gotten WORSE, not BETTER since the "War on Drugs" began.
Legalizing pot will eliminate the profit margin of illegal drugs. You make something illegal you increase it's value to the criminal underworld to be garnered on the black market. You get rid of the black market, you get rid of the profits that fund organized crime. It's basic economics..with demand there will always be a supply...the "war" on drugs has done nothing to stop that demand. The only alternative to reducing the costs (and the cartel profit margins) is to increase supply, by legalization and taxation.
Like cigarettes and booze (even taxed at several thousand percent) drugs will be cheaper, and 99% people will pay the tax. Those that don't will be prosecuted for tax evasion.
When you have $50billion flowing south due to illegal drugs, more than twice what Mexican Immigrants (legal or otherwise) send back to their families, prohibition of drugs/pot has obviously failed miserably and is only an excuse for government agencies to secure funding from the congress...for a "war" they have been losing for 30+ years, with ZERO appreciable impact on drugs...other than to increase their use.
At some point we have to step back and say this isn't working and maybe it's time to try a different approach. Put a sunset provision of 10 years on it if you like. If it works, and violence is decreased, make it permanent later, if it doesn't than we won't be any worse off than we are now.
Gutshot John, very well said!
I wrote this a few years ago in my 20's, some might call it a rant :) ... it was sparked by a conversation I had with 1 of my uncles at that time and most of my view points still remain the same... I did a copy & paste but I can dig up the old links if anyone's interested...
As is typical with most people I have encountered, my uncle believes that his moral position on what is acceptable to use as an intoxicant should be the standard for the whole of society. Typical conversation… "Alcohol & cigarettes are ok and I don't see a problem with marijuana being legal as long as we tax it... but I don't think anything else should be legal". Where does this egoistical, myopic attitude come from? Could it be that no one has read the Constitution or the Bill of Rights? Do any of these people open a book, ever? Much less a history book on the good ol' U.S. of A.?
My position has nothing to do with my use of drugs or the lack thereof; it has to do with what is moralistically right in a "free society" and who should determine what you are legally able to ingest into your own body. These immoral laws assert that you do not own your own body and you have no right to control what you ingest whether it is an intoxicant, stimulant, depressant or something else unless it's prescribed by a state certified person who has paid the government to have the right to give you these drugs as they see fit. The audacity of our elected government officials imposing their morals and dictating what you can and can not consume depending on how you feel yourself is reprehensible to say the least.
If these laws and the War on Drugs are supposed to create a drug-free America, then I can honestly say that after hundreds of billions of dollars spent, millions of arrests, and decades of escalating police and military efforts, the war on drugs is a complete and utter failure in my opinion. Because who of us can't get whatever illicit drug we want whenever we want?
This is by far the longest war in American history, one that has hundreds of thousands of innocent people (victimless crimes) locked in cages, many of whom are raped and beaten by convicted violent felons and all at an exorbitant cost in tax dollars and liberty. Please bear in mind that at various times in our country's history, heroin, cocaine, marijuana, LSD, ecstasy, and amphetamines were legal. To put someone in a prison cell or to execute someone for engaging in private behavior or mutually voluntary trade, purchasing/selling drugs, is completely unconstitutional. That is one of the corner stones of a constitutional republic, free economy, free trade and ownership of one's self and property.
Admittedly drugs aren't the best thing in the world for you, no shit, that isn't my assertion. Neither is too much TV, fast food, caffeine, sexual partners… and the list goes on and on. But, I don't need the government telling me what should be legal to do with my own body at any time for any reason! A free person in a free country has the right to determine what brings them happiness as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others, that part's very important by the way.
Please do yourself a favor and read a book on prohibition in the United States in the early 1900's. Compare that period in time along with the organized crime,Al Capone and his ilk, and what our inner cities gangs are like today. Does this also encourage cops to be dishonest and become involved in the illegal trade as well? Simply put, it's a matter of economics.
The laws of supply & demand will always dictate what happens in our society due to market demands. If someone is willing to purchase something, drugs or otherwise, than the entrepreneur will find a way to supply that demand. Our unconstitutional laws also provide a higher profit margin for the "drug dealers" due to the fact of having a limited supply and the product is hard to come by due to its illegality.
I'm gonna end this here… I may add to it later but I'm hungry and by now you should either get it or not… By the way in case I haven't made myself clear enough, I'm not advocating drug use, I'm defending an individual's freedom to own their own bodies and to limit government intrusion, especially when we're talking about victimless crimes. I could write so much on that topic your eyes would bleed… Then again, if you've read all this maybe you're smart enough to have read some books on the subject matter and I'd bore you to death… However, our adult illiteracy rates contradict this assumption.
The overwhelming majority of people in prison are there for drug offenses. As of September 30, 2000, for the year in question, 129,329 offenders were serving a prison sentence in federal prison; 57% were incarcerated for a drug offense; 10% for a violent offense; 8% for a weapon offense; 8% for a property offense, 11% for an immigration offense; and 6% for all other offenses. (Reference: Federal Criminal Case Processing, 2000)
The overwhelming majority of people in prison for drugs are also non-violent offenders. According to official statistics from the NYS Dept of Correctional Services (DOCS), nearly 80% of drug offenders in prison have never been convicted of a violent felony; about half have never even been arrested for one. (Reference: Myths and Facts About the Rockefeller Drug Laws)
Drug offenses account for a higher percentage of people in federal prison than weapons, extortion, homicide, robbery and burglary combined. For 2006 53.7% were drug offenders, 14.2% were weapons offenders, 5.4% were robbery offenders, 3.8% were burglary offenders, 4.2% were extortion offenders, and 3.1% were homicide offenders. (Reference: Federal Bureau of Prisons: Quick Facts 2006)
Punishment for first-time offenders is generally higher if the offense is a drug-related. (Reference: Cruel & Unusual Punishment)
In New York State specifically, the minimum sentence given to a first-time drug felon is the same as that for a murderer. The minimum sentence for a first-time offender guilty of selling two ounces of cocaine is 15 years to life – the same sentence as given to a convicted murderer. (Reference: Who Goes to Prison for Drug Offenses?)
legalizing pot wont make the bad guys go away ! it will just make them legit
this has been proven in quite a few things and in Amsterdam or where ever that is ?
one of our relatives lives their and the bad guys are now legit and still control it and still cheat the system
sadly legalizing it to take some money out of it and tax the heck out of it then make it so if you are caught with non taxed legal weed or selling it you get mega fines !!!
heck I know when I lived in Honduras it was clear in every place if you get caught you spend 25 years in jail no questions asked !!!
maybe then it would take a while and a few new jails but it would slow it down a lot
Holland, which is part of the Netherlands and specifically where Amsterdam is located is a beautiful, enchanting city that has alot more to offer than just drugs and the red light district.
Drug addiction there is treated similarly to how alcoholism is in the U.S. There is compassion, sympathy and understanding and they seek to find the root cause of the problem rather than just imprisoning a person for their addiction or sickness. How many very successful CEO's of companies are alcoholics? I'd wager alot of money that you'll find many, many people who are very successful and have all the symptoms of being an alcoholic but we haven't imprisoned them.
The only thing that incarceration does is to get that person doing drugs inside a prison or as soon as they're reintroduced to society they go back to it. It's a temporary solution to a permanent problem or addictive behavior/illness.
Use the Drug War money for education. Look at the anti-cigarette ad campaigns and how successful they've been. It's reduced smoking considerably and has made it "uncool" to the masses. Are people still smoking? Hell yes and they always will but they've been educated as to what the harmful effects will be and they've made a conscious decision to continue down that road of their own volition. One day they'll pay the price...
Legalization or ending the prohibition of drugs would decrease crime and let us allocate those funds to be used in a constructive manner elsewhere.
thopkins22
03-13-09, 12:59
Things are bad down there...and our news shows about 5% of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEuWYhuXFjY&eurl=http://breachbangclear.blogspot.com/2009_02_01_archive.html
Just got back from visiting a potential new customer. Crossing went very smooth and I'm really impressed how the young Mexican military conducts itself at the point of entry with foreign business folks...very polite and talkative while they search the vehicle.
I have not caught one yet that had any sort of attitude. It probably helps to be fluent though.
I spent much of my 30 year career dealing with the results of drug/alcohol use so I have some first hand experience with the real downside of both. Having said that, I am also fully accepting that the whole issue with what is occurring in Mexico and other countries South of us, is being fueled by the insatiable taste for illicit drugs in this country and elsewhere. The War on Drugs is the biggest "feel good" fiasco that has ever been perpitrated on the American public. It has done little other than create the drug cartels and overburden our prison systems. Little if anything else. If that WOD were a private business they would have gone belly up decades ago due to their absolute and dismal failure.
I am also fully cognizant that the users of these illict drugs are not just the poor, socially disenfranchised masses that make up a large precentage of those incarcerated for that use. The big money in drugs is generated via the upper classes demand for the high quality material and it's use and consumption is rampant amoungst those very socially elite that are supposed to be the ones directing this WOD. If one does not believe that premise, then all you need do is spend some time riding along with those who deal with the results on a daily basis in the "upper class" areas.
So this takes me to the point of my blather. I guess it is time to seriously re-evaluate this nation's whole approach to the drug use issue. I saw very few who had someone sit on thier chest and force drugs into them . The majority make the very personal choice to take that route themselves, and most with full knowledge and appreciation for the risks and consequences. If that is in fact the norm as I believe it to be, then lets "Federalize" the manufacturing and marketing of these materials as has been done with alcohol. Lets make it cheap, easily available, and as powerful as it can be made. For those who choose to embibe in it and eventually suffer the all to well known effects, they will soon self eliminate and eventually the problem will solve itself. Might want to buy some stock in the outfits that make body bags. Sounds Draconian and uncompassionate, but I would put the prospects for success of that approach up against any other approach that has been utilized up to this point. Just my 2 cents.
I guess I should say related to my post
is yes treat the users try to get them help
throw the dealers in prison for 25 years ! the traffickers for life
Gutshot John
03-13-09, 19:20
I guess I should say related to my post
is yes treat the users try to get them help
throw the dealers in prison for 25 years ! the traffickers for life
I can live with that, though I'd go even further for traffickers.
I visited Singapore once many moons ago, and I seem to remember signs in the airport that said something akin to "Anyone caught smuggling drugs may be subject to summary execution".
**** 'em. Addicts deserve sympathy and treatment, traffickers/dealers deserve the full weight of the law.
Mr.Goodtimes
03-13-09, 20:08
i dont see where addicts deserve anything. and theyll get nothing from me. they knew what they were getting them selves into. they chose to do what they did to their bodies. and quite honestly i dont want to have to pay for some crack addicts new teeth and a place to live till it can get off its feet.
Now, i dont consider weed a drug in the sense that the others are. weed is a plant that grows out of the ground, put here by god, for us to use its all 100% organic and natural. people dont get high on marajuana and go on a killing spree or rob a seven eleven. people on weed wanna eat, have sex, and laugh while discussing the shortcomings and pitfalls of society and gov.
People on crack, crystal meth, acid etc. can really do some terrible stuff. this is a free society and people are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. whatever that may be. so if you enjoy taking crystal meth and breaking into houses, so be it; when you wind up dead however, its an open and shut case, where no charges could be brough against the homeowner in any way shape or form. or if you wanna get high on crack and beat and rape one of my loved ones, well then, when i beat, torture, and then place you in a cage with a grizzly bear in heat, then charges shouldnt be brought against me.
im a firm believer in that the fit survive. if your kids are too dumb to stay away from crack and hard drugs after you talk to them about the horrid consequences of taking them; and they take them anyway? then when all their teeth fall out, their brains are fried and they have no strength, or get shot in a robery, well tough luck. in nature the fit survive and they werent fit to survive, thats one less idiot in the gene pool.
-Ryan
HAMMERDROP
03-14-09, 00:26
i dont see where addicts deserve anything. and theyll get nothing from me. they knew what they were getting them selves into. they chose to do what they did to their bodies. and quite honestly i dont want to have to pay for some crack addicts new teeth and a place to live till it can get off its feet.
Now, i dont consider weed a drug in the sense that the others are. weed is a plant that grows out of the ground, put here by god, for us to use its all 100% organic and natural. people dont get high on marajuana and go on a killing spree or rob a seven eleven. people on weed wanna eat, have sex, and laugh while discussing the shortcomings and pitfalls of society and gov.
People on crack, crystal meth, acid etc. can really do some terrible stuff. this is a free society and people are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. whatever that may be. so if you enjoy taking crystal meth and breaking into houses, so be it; when you wind up dead however, its an open and shut case, where no charges could be brough against the homeowner in any way shape or form. or if you wanna get high on crack and beat and rape one of my loved ones, well then, when i beat, torture, and then place you in a cage with a grizzly bear in heat, then charges shouldnt be brought against me.
im a firm believer in that the fit survive. if your kids are too dumb to stay away from crack and hard drugs after you talk to them about the horrid consequences of taking them; and they take them anyway? then when all their teeth fall out, their brains are fried and they have no strength, or get shot in a robery, well tough luck. in nature the fit survive and they werent fit to survive, thats one less idiot in the gene pool.
-Ryan
God also gave us Hops to make beer and jillions of gallons got consumed tonight in the sense of celebration you worked hard this week gotta let steam out - keeps the Cops busy.
A grisly demise so be it however it happpens to a tweaker/dealer/distributor addict or herion/dealer/distributor or addict only improves the gene pool ...
Michael
So long as people can live off the goverment in our country and live well, they will not stop it. With enough brute force, it is possible to secure the border and have controlable access points, but I do not believe it would ever happen. The liberal left will ALWAYS scream bloody murder about how it is profiling. In recent events concerning the border, Arizona sheriff Arpaio is currently being blasted over this. Now, love him or hate him, he is making an attempt to enforce what the Federal goverment either refuses to, or is impotent to do. They are even going so far as to have Congressional hearings and a Federal investigation of him enforcing immigration law.
Ethnic profiling of illegal aliens..........are you serious? That is what they are accusing the man of. We know you are enforcing the law, Joe, but you are just not doing it right. Which leads me to, just which illegal aliens should he be concerned with?
As long as that is the mentality of our goverment, the problem will not be stopped.
i dont see where addicts deserve anything. and theyll get nothing from me. they knew what they were getting them selves into. they chose to do what they did to their bodies. and quite honestly i dont want to have to pay for some crack addicts new teeth and a place to live till it can get off its feet.
-Ryan
I think they should get help but we dont pay for it :)
bill them later etc... but if some taxes go into a program ? well I can live with a small amount
cause if you dont help them and they do things like rob then it hurts others so there has to be some balance and that can fall under keeping us safer
also keeps them from spreading it to others
Now, i dont consider weed a drug in the sense that the others are. weed is a plant that grows out of the ground, put here by god, for us to use its all 100% organic and natural. people dont get high on marajuana and go on a killing spree or rob a seven eleven. people on weed wanna eat, have sex, and laugh while discussing the shortcomings and pitfalls of society and gov
-Ryan
well not sure as one thing leads to another the next high
everything on this earth comes from the earth ? so the its natural is kinda lost
also from being on medic rigs in my past I have had others killed by stoned drivers also a guy with broken collar bones stands out in my mind since he was a mess and about 75 years old so the rest of his life is hosed cause the kids driving were baked and drifted into the incoming lane
any and all drugs kill others or can cause others pain
Gutshot John
03-14-09, 10:40
I have had others killed by stoned drivers
I'm going to have to question that one a bit and would like to hear some more. As a medic I've never seen anyone smoking pot in an accident that wasn't also drinking or doing other forms of drugs. Similarly I can't tell you how many fights/stabbings/shootings I've been to and alcohol was almost always involved. I've never seen a stoner pick a fight and then stab/shoot someone. If that's going to be your standard, than alcohol is a FAR more dangerous drug.
How did you know they were stoned? There isn't really a field sobriety test for that and I don't think you can determine WHEN someone was stoned or not by blood/urinalysis like you can with a breathalyzer.
Stupidity seems to be a deciding factor, and you spoke of choices being made. How many people are killed by people eating while driving? Talking on their cell phones, doing their makeup etc. Quite a bit more I'd imagine.
Even still I doubt very much that legalization would increase the number of people that do or do not drive stoned. Either you would, in which case you would even if illegal (as evidenced by your anecdote) or you wouldn't, in which case you wouldn't even if legal.
K.L. Davis
03-14-09, 11:12
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T63-4B726VV-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ac3d9054977acd314f75a3ea829541bd
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T63-42R0S56-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=5576fc3c99af44e93a8242ab12475b7d
http://www.ukcia.org/research/AdverseEffectsOfCannabis.pdf
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/178/2/101
http://psy.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/26/7/569
http://www.co-psychiatry.com/pt/re/copsych/abstract.00001504-200205000-00004.htm;jsessionid=J7Tffxnr7C1F0JMbQL2Xg8lFh9pQJh2JNMqB26thFzQBKSYCPV31!-411160686!181195629!8091!-1
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBR-4CY0JSM-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=95a842fef02272cc8b862ad11cc89cb8
http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/citation/83/4/637
http://pt.wkhealth.com/pt/re/addi/abstract.00008514-200712000-00009.htm;jsessionid=J7JJsykQbN4V0br96LnDt6Lypv9Ghhh67mX2FT44Gpgyh2TylRQD!-1046349743!181195628!8091!-1
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=DEWRoPweosEC&oi=fnd&pg=PA106&dq=accidents+caused+by+marijuana+impairment&ots=XbTKyew4Hr&sig=EcNOZqysMczkgGrwH9kNUXT--Bw#PPR30,M1
http://www.springerlink.com/content/jp21177885035331/
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T63-4B726VV-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ac3d9054977acd314f75a3ea829541bd
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V5S-4VD7XDW-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=35eae0e6baef05498fb5ab0407c91622
http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ747559&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ747559
http://jop.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/20/1/5
Gutshot John
03-14-09, 11:20
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T63-4B726VV-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ac3d9054977acd314f75a3ea829541bd
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T63-42R0S56-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=5576fc3c99af44e93a8242ab12475b7d
http://www.ukcia.org/research/AdverseEffectsOfCannabis.pdf
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/178/2/101
http://psy.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/26/7/569
http://www.co-psychiatry.com/pt/re/copsych/abstract.00001504-200205000-00004.htm;jsessionid=J7Tffxnr7C1F0JMbQL2Xg8lFh9pQJh2JNMqB26thFzQBKSYCPV31!-411160686!181195629!8091!-1
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBR-4CY0JSM-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=95a842fef02272cc8b862ad11cc89cb8
http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/citation/83/4/637
http://pt.wkhealth.com/pt/re/addi/abstract.00008514-200712000-00009.htm;jsessionid=J7JJsykQbN4V0br96LnDt6Lypv9Ghhh67mX2FT44Gpgyh2TylRQD!-1046349743!181195628!8091!-1
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=DEWRoPweosEC&oi=fnd&pg=PA106&dq=accidents+caused+by+marijuana+impairment&ots=XbTKyew4Hr&sig=EcNOZqysMczkgGrwH9kNUXT--Bw#PPR30,M1
http://www.springerlink.com/content/jp21177885035331/
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T63-4B726VV-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ac3d9054977acd314f75a3ea829541bd
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V5S-4VD7XDW-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=35eae0e6baef05498fb5ab0407c91622
http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ747559&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ747559
http://jop.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/20/1/5
Studies are all very interesting but you're missing the point I'm not saying it doesn't impair you. I'm saying that how does one determine what was the impairment, especially if other drugs were involved especially in a legal setting? More importantly you're missing the most important journal...JEMS. Similarly I don't really see any other serious medical journal and since drug research is often tied to government funding, I'm not sure how well those studies have been vetted. What was their methodology/sample size etc? I'm sure I can find a study that "proves" just about anything, but that's not necessarily true.
If you know of a field test to determine the dose/impairment I'd be quite curious. I've never heard of such a thing and no department I'm aware of has that capability.
DUI is a crime, whether the influence of legal or illegal drugs. Legalizing marijuana won't change that at all.
Gutshot John
03-14-09, 11:29
Googling "DUI" and "Marijuana" comes up with a myriad of studies, some say there is impairment, some say there isn't and others say more data is needed.
Often the pro and/or con camps appear to be looking for data that proves their point to the exclusion of other data that disproves it.
NO ONE says that drinking and driving is safe and while I'm quite sure that marijuana impairs driving skills, I'm skeptical that it impairs judgment enough to determine whether a person DUIs or not like alcohol does. More significantly I would bet that in most cases of smoking pot and getting into a car wreck, there were other forms of impairment as well.
Give the landowners and ranchers a green light to defend their land by any means needed.
Recruit an armed militia to patrol the border. I can promise you the turnout would be huge and people would do it for free.
Make both groups immune to all civil litigation
The problem would be fixed without a few months. No fence needed
The answer.
Send the unorganized militia to the border.
I'm going to have to question that one a bit and would like to hear some more. As a medic I've never seen anyone smoking pot in an accident that wasn't also drinking or doing other forms of drugs. Similarly I can't tell you how many fights/stabbings/shootings I've been to and alcohol was almost always involved. I've never seen a stoner pick a fight and then stab/shoot someone. If that's going to be your standard, than alcohol is a FAR more dangerous drug.
when getting the two front passengers out of the car
it wreaked of pot and they had the signs of it and said they were baked !
could they have been drinking ? sure
could they have ben eating ? sure
could they have looked down to get something ? sure
could they have better training to avoid it ? sure
the list could go on and on but being so baked was I feel a major part of it !!!
the ones with the collar bone I knew who they were from HS !!!
and they were baked beyond anything
not sure if they were drunk also ? but the driver ditched since they knew me for some reason they felt compelled to tell me the driver was hiding down the road
of course I told the cops were to find him
I guess everyone can point to something else saying what about drinking what about prescription pills what about this or that
bottom line its a drug and its against the law thats how I view it
should they legalize it ? I say yes but with major revisions to the laws then
is alcohol worse ? yeah I agree
does anyone who smokes pot become this honor citizen ? NO WAY
1859sharps
03-14-09, 15:06
Legalize drugs. Nothing else will ever work. I am not even a drug user, and I do not condone the use of drugs.
We all know and understand how making something illegal doesn't automatically solve anything.
But I am not so sure legalizing drugs will improve the situation. Think this one through even a little.
Drugs are legalized tomorrow. Then what? do we leave supply, sale and manufacturing alone. now you have a legal product that's manufacturing process can still harm people. even if the actual drugs initially may not. So, what happens? We create regulations. Now we have a Government endorsement. Now that the Government is endorsing say Cocain, what potency level is socially acceptable? How do you measure and define that? But saying you can, some enterprising gang will then look at this and say...hummm government only allows potency A, but we can make potency B, and B is much "better"... now your back to illegal drug trade.
The current Drug "war" may not be win able. meaning we do A,B,C and no more drug war. But I personally remain unconvinced that legalization will end it either.
Gutshot John
03-14-09, 15:13
Drugs are legalized tomorrow. Then what? do we leave supply, sale and manufacturing alone. now you have a legal product that's manufacturing process can still harm people. even if the actual drugs initially may not.
FDA/Department of Agriculture would provide oversight and regulate the growth/manufacture just like any other drug.
Legalization does not mean unregulated. Cocaine and opiates are already regulated in this way.
If you're talking about pot, than some farmer who's having trouble keeping his farm afloat when the price of soy collapses, can convert some of his land quickly to grow what is essentially a weed. I don't know where you get that government is "endorsing" cocaine?
The bottom line choice is that you can have billions of illegal drug dollars flowing into the coffers of violent drug gangs, or you can have billions of legal drug dollars flowing into the US treasury to keep your taxes low.
Seems like a no brainer to me.
1859sharps
03-14-09, 22:57
gut shot you are basically agreeing with me, but coming to a different conclusion and ignoring the side affect of regulation.
my opinion is that once legal, the government won't just leave it alone. They will regulate it. to this point we seem to agree. However, I took the theory one step further. what happens when you regulate? My conclusion is that you will be right back to square one. An illegal drug trade supplying people who want a more potent product then government regulations allow.
Gutshot John
03-15-09, 08:21
my opinion is that once legal, the government won't just leave it alone. They will regulate it. to this point we seem to agree. However, I took the theory one step further. what happens when you regulate? My conclusion is that you will be right back to square one. An illegal drug trade supplying people who want a more potent product then government regulations allow.
Except that Prohibition and events subsequent to the repeal of the Volstead Act disprove your theory. There is no historic precedent for the government doing what you say it will do. In fact they've done the exact opposite in the case of both alcohol and cigarettes.
Moreover I don't see why government should leave it alone. ALL DRUGS in this country, legal or otherwise are and should be regulated...just as is currently done by the FDA.
The claim that regulation will cause people to seek to circumvent government laws for increased potency is a bit of a stretch. First, cigarette companies have been spiking cigarettes for years, increasing their potency/addictive potential with ZERO interference from government. People buy the full-blown "cowboy killers" as well as those ultra-super light cigarettes with very little nicotine. There are grades of purity that people are made aware of. Some choose stronger, some choose lighter.
At best, government has only regulated the marketing of such items. Second alcohol is exactly the same, there is no attempt to regulate potency and more to regulate what is put into the alcohol to make sure you don't have stuff like strychnine/turpentine etc. Germany has something similar for beer called the reinheitsgeboot.
How many people do you see involved in the illegal cigarette or alcohol trade? While I won't say anything is 100% legal, 99+% of people procure their smokes/drinks in a legal manner, paying the government prescribed tax. Simply put it's cheaper to pay the tax, than to seek to avoid it. While there will always be people that seek to short the system, at least it will be within a system. People already can make their own wine and beer in their homes without interference from the government and I don't see why people can't grow a little pot for their own use. Even still these people represent a minority, made mostly of hobbyists. Most everyone else goes to the liquor store and pays their taxes.
Cocaine/Opiates are obviously different because it's not available to most people without a prescription, this is vastly different than cigarettes and alcohol. All drugs would still be controlled and I see no problem with that.
Government obviously doesn't control potency there, people conform to the law, and states raise large amounts of cash by taxation that only a small minority seek to avoid.
This is a exact opposite what drug prohibition has done which has only served to put money into the hands of drug lords and create a threat to this country...for what? So we can save some junkies from themselves in order to perpetuate a war on drugs that does nothing but serve the funding needs of the DEA at a much greater cost to our society.
The threat from drug cartels south of our border is a far greater strategic threat. The only way to counter that threat is to eliminate the flow of cash to the tune of $50B a year into their coffers to pay bribes and arm their footsoldiers.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.