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lalakai
03-12-09, 08:42
If anyone else would like to make a comment regarding moderation of the website, please go through the proper channels, i.e. pm site staff or post in the Site Suggestions/Comments thread.

Each forum has it's own rules and guidelines and it's easy to see: play by the rules or don't play at all. At the same time, the basic function of a forum is exchanging information, knowledge, and even opinions. If forum members start modifying their responses not based on logic or experience, but on what will be "accepted", then it lowers the quality and value of what is learned and shared in the forum. At the same time, we look for input that is true and based on actual experience, versus partial evaluations.

I have learned a great deal here, and hopefully have been able to share some of the experiences and knowledge that i have. But if i tailor my input so that i don't contradict a moderator, am i giving valid info and will that be for the betterment of this forum?

Most of us here have been in multiple forums, and some of us have seen forums fade away because of how guidelines were applied. Hopefully that isn't happening here.

M4C's reputation and respect was earned the hard way, not granted by fiat. That should hold true for all elements of this forum. Time will tell.

HowardCohodas
03-12-09, 09:44
Being a moderator is a tough, unappreciated, no pay job. At the same time it is performed by humans who are fallible.

I have been offered the position of moderator on several occasions in other forums and was tempted only once to the point that I actually took a day or so to consider it. In the end, I turned it down primarily because I did not believe I had the temperament to do the job to my personal satisfaction.

This forum is in the top three of my favorites. I like hanging out here. I like it because of the members who contribute to my knowledge. And I like it because the moderator function is nearly invisible as I tend to take umbrage when I perceive it as heavy handed.

So why am I risking my ability to remain here by posting in this thread? Because I believe others feel the same way and I should take the risk to say Thank You to the moderators who do a job I was unwilling to undertake.

SHIVAN
03-12-09, 09:53
On the surface, free reign seems like a win-win for everyone. In reality, however, free reign to post whatever you like ends up with child porn threads, illegal machine gun threads, bush & boobs threads, etc.

Some threads, and some positions, are indefensible and will only lead down a path that is not constructive for anyone.

You do not need to agree with all the moderators or staff, and if there is a specific problem, then every action has a higher review level for consideration of fairness.

Some times you may win the appeal, and sometimes you may be told to act like an adult and quit crying over it.

We're human and we tire of the incessant crap that people try to pull on the internet gun forums. We don't need some threads to go 25 pages to know EXACTLY where it's headed.

lalakai
03-12-09, 10:50
Shivan and Howard, I completely agree about the amount of BS that mods have to wade through, the lack of apprecation, the high demands, and the low returns. Sounds like nearly every LEO. And like nearly every LEO, there is a different standard that should be expect of mods. No doubt it ain't a fun job, and if you're doing it, it's because of a concern for the integrity of the forum. And in every LEO agency and every forum, you have good ones and ones that don't quite hit the target.

For all the Mods here, this forum is one of the best i've been a part of. You people have the job of essentially herding a bunch of cats, and that ain't easy; you have my respect and apprecation for that. But look no further then Howard's statement: So why am I risking my ability to remain here by posting in this thread? Because I believe others feel the same way and I should take the risk to say Thank You to the moderators who do a job I was unwilling to undertake. He feels that merely by posting in this thread, his participation in this forum may be endangered. Why should he feel this way, in posting his honest opinion? If you have members like HowardCohondas this "sensitized", how are others tailoring their inputs?

SHIVAN
03-12-09, 10:56
If rob_s is still posting here, we are not suffering too much of a tailoring of output from our members. :D

I think maybe your being a little sensitive. Can you provide an example of what could possibly be bugging you so badly that you need to post this thread??

rob_s
03-12-09, 10:59
Hey, what did I do?

:eek:

SHIVAN
03-12-09, 11:03
Nothing, but you ARE the poster child for saying what's on your mind, consequences to hell...right??

:D

rob_s
03-12-09, 11:04
Nothing, but you ARE the poster child for saying what's on your mind, consequences to hell...right??

:D
I dunno, ask my boss. He just stormed out of my office saying I was being "difficult".
:eek:

ToddG
03-12-09, 11:23
If rob_s is still posting here, we are not suffering too much of a tailoring of output from our members. :D

:p

The comparison I've always made, before, during, and after my stint as a Mod here, is simple. Mods are like the RO at the range. You can disagree with an RO all you want. But once you say something snarky or disrespectful, you're on your own. Doesn't matter if you tell the RO he's stupid because he prefers beef ribs to pork ribs, you still don't frak with the RO because his job is to maintain order.

There is an established -- though perhaps not adequately published/understood -- method of dealing with Moderator impoliteness and perceptions of same.

In the thread which started this discussion, someone called BS on a Mod. From what I saw, this was something which would not have garnered any reaction if it had been said to another member instead of a Mod. However, it was said to a Mod. Sort of like the difference between flipping off a random motorist for cutting you off, and flipping off a cop for cutting you off. You might not think it's fair, but it's how the system works.

The reason M4C is vastly superior to most similarly large and active forums is because there are so many Mods keeping it that way. This is not a free fire zone. The rules may be a little too strict for some. The continuing growth and success of the forum as well as its popularity among IP/SME types who normally shy away from discussion boards would seem to indicate that the M4C business model is working as intended.

Army Chief
03-12-09, 12:43
I've seen -- and lived -- both sides of the issue as a Moderator and as a member at various times in various places.

Oddly enough, I also received my first "b*tch slapping" this morning for an inadvertent violation of the Obama/AWB post policy. Now, I didn't really care for the manner in which it was done, and it chafed me that the staffer involved didn't know me better than to presume that I wouldn't have responded to a friendly reminder, but the fact is that try as we might to forge a close-knit sense of community, many of us simply don't know one another.

That leaves us with a fairly straightforward proposition: either we enforce things uniformly, or we don't. Given the choice, I would agree that it is a far better thing to err on the side of caution than it is to became a haven for morons and white noise. We've all see more than our share of that elsewhere. If the price of maintaining a high standard of quality is an occasional run-in with a staffer who is probably weary of making the same correction for the 10,000th time, then to me it is a price worth paying.

AC

lalakai
03-12-09, 13:47
Todd, the analogy about flipping off the LEO is close. I guess I missed the point or seperation of how mods work here. I played on a team made up of State Troops (my dad retired from there), and we would play other police teams. No blood no foul and everyone caught the elbows and sometimes illegals blocks, but it was part of the game and we laughed about it later. however, the ref never stopped the game, said we were disrespecting them by giving them an elbow, and awarded a technical. When they were in uniform I definitely treated them different, and they acted different as was their responsibility.

the forum just like b-ball game has rules and we played by them and accepted the ref's decisions; no problem with that. But when you play the game, realize there will be contact. If you voice an opinion, realize there may be a counter opinion. As you pointed out, had the "BS" call been to any other member, it would have be swept along with the thread and forgotten, but it was made to a mod that was participating in the conversation of the thread...............they were in the game.

Perhaps this will serve to educate others on how to converse with mods and will save future grief. Hopefully everyone will learn from it. I have.

geezerbutler
03-12-09, 14:07
Oddly enough, I also received my first "b*tch slapping" this morning for an inadvertent violation of the Obama/AWB post policy.
AC

AC, I too received my 1st *Infraction* recently, and it required my going to counseling because I felt un-American and seedy for my disobedience.

Prior to counseling I prepared a spectacular rebuttal to the heinous charges leveled against me.

I went and re-read the MSF rules regarding sales and indeed I had broken the law; granted the violation was unintentional and certainly not for personal gain.

I pondered the reality of my situation and decided to disengage.

The *Infractions* have since expired and my counseling sessions, 1 1/2 hours away from where I live, have been cut down to 2 times a week.

Just my > DEEP< >THOUGHTS < (with reverb and echo) ......by Jack Handy

Gutshot John
03-12-09, 19:30
I've been "smacked" once or twice by a mod, but I would never say I was treated unfairly even if I disagreed.

I'm appreciative of the mods and whatever the rules/standards might be, they go out of their way to apply them consistently.

They don't play favorites and in my experience, even when I've been less than appreciative privately, they keep an even hand publicly.

Army Chief
03-13-09, 14:20
They don't play favorites and in my experience, even when I've been less than appreciative privately, they keep an even hand publicly.

I would concur with that.

In a perfect world, I would much prefer that a member's past history and reputation be considered when meting out punishment, but I've held Moderator responsibilities on boards that are exponentially larger than this one, and the truth of the matter is that it is unrealistic to expect every staffer to be able to discern the wheat from the chaff in a given situation. It's the difference between justice and fairness ... and we tend to get justice around here. Can't really argue the point, even if the voltage on the Infractionometer is a cranked up a bit too high for my tastes at times. I don't want idiots to get free rein, but I would like to see core contributors treated with a modicum of deference when there is any doubt in such matters.

Yes, I'm still mortified to be labeled an evildoer -- even on a minor league scale -- but I'm pretty sure that I'll recover. Eventually.

AC

ZDL
03-13-09, 14:44
I've been smacked a few times and all but 2 were warranted imo as I was in direct violation of a printed rule. The other 2.... I chalked it up to bad days on the part of the moderator and moved on. We all act like children sometimes on here at one time or another and katar and the others running around with a ruler smacking us has got to be tiring, annoying, and frustrating. I'd rather have it like it is than any other way I'm damn sure of that. Keeps to bullshit out of here and the cream at the top.

It ain't perfect, but it's the best I've come across.

HAIL-CAESAR
03-13-09, 23:19
I was permanently banned from another site for telling of various problems I have personally had with a company. Not things I read about on the errornet, heard at the local greasy spoon, but issues that I have personally experienced. I had emails from 3 Mods and the Head Honcho himself with in minutes. All of them banned me. I guess if your a paid sponsor you can get away with murder.

Mods are people too.
Some people I would invite into my home, some I'd slam the door on.
Usually if you keep your senses tuned, you can tell which is which.

Derek_Connor
03-14-09, 08:10
Like with all websites, there are moderators who enjoy their job way too much, and let others know it.

There are those who are good at it, and who are bad at it.

All forums suffer from these problems, it is what it is.

My experience here calling bullshit on moderators comments has never been negative per se, usually things are edited and threads are trashed, which in itself could be a whole other discussion.

It is a thankless job I agree, but it is still a *voluntary* thankless job.

HAIL-CAESAR
03-14-09, 20:08
Like with all websites, there are moderators who enjoy their job way too much, and let others know it.

There are those who are good at it, and who are bad at it.

All forums suffer from these problems, it is what it is.

My experience here calling bullshit on moderators comments has never been negative per se, usually things are edited and threads are trashed, which in itself could be a whole other discussion.

It is a thankless job I agree, but it is still a *voluntary* thankless job.

I have caught OS Moderators lying threw their teeth. Usually when they veer off firearms related topics, sometimes not. I called one out on an outrageous whopper. I learned never to do that again, just let them tell their lies to the unknowing and remain fools to the knowing.

Again most are good people. Some, well....

lalakai
03-14-09, 20:49
I have caught OS Moderators lying threw their teeth. Usually when they veer off firearms related topics, sometimes not. I called one out on an outrageous whopper. I learned never to do that again, just let them tell their lies to the unknowing and remain fools to the knowing.

Again most are good people. Some, well....

Todd made a good analogy and it applies here. You get pulled over by LEO and even though you know it's a chicken s#@t stop, you don't tell them they are full of it. You just accept it cuz it's a no win situation. Most LEO's play fair, same as mods; others are in the game for reasons beyond enforcement. I guess bottom line is that regardless of the situation, whether right or wrong, don't contradict 'em, and don't complain, because it only adds to the misery. I've only had a very few LEO's, or mods that ever admitted to a mistake; those are the ones that retain the trust they started with.


What's that saying.............Who watches the Watchers.

lalakai
03-14-09, 20:52
I have caught OS Moderators lying threw their teeth. Usually when they veer off firearms related topics, sometimes not. I called one out on an outrageous whopper. I learned never to do that again, just let them tell their lies to the unknowing and remain fools to the knowing.

Again most are good people. Some, well....

Todd made a good analogy and it applies here. You get pulled over by LEO and even though you know it's a chicken s#@t stop, you don't tell them they are full of it. You just accept it cuz it's a no win situation. Most LEO's play fair, same as mods; others are in the game for reasons beyond enforcement. I guess bottom line is that regardless of the situation, whether right or wrong, don't contradict 'em, and don't complain, because it only adds to the misery. I've only had a very few LEO's, or mods that ever admitted to a mistake; those are the ones that retain the respect they started with.


What's that saying.............Who watches the Watchers.

exkc135driver
03-14-09, 20:52
If anyone else would like to make a comment regarding moderation of the website, please go through the proper channels, i.e. pm site staff or post in the Site Suggestions/Comments thread.

I have a question/comment but cannot find the "Site Suggestions/Comments" thread. My computer-fu may not be the best, but I am unable to find a thread with that title. Where might I find it?

NCPatrolAR
03-14-09, 21:23
I have a question/comment but cannot find the "Site Suggestions/Comments" thread. My computer-fu may not be the best, but I am unable to find a thread with that title. Where might I find it?

Just make a seperate thread in this forum or post it in this thread.

Buck
03-14-09, 22:29
As one who engages in an occasional discussion here on M4C and I am sure who was the catalyst for this thread let me chime in… I have no problem if you disagree with me, or each other in a thread… The issue at hand was very simple… A forum member was concerned about a new piece of kit that had been developed for use by law enforcement by a subsidiary of the Taser corporation and posed that he was scared by it with no details… I am very familiar with this product… The original poster then referenced a three part video in his post put out by the Taser corporation CEO that touched on a number of subjects including the X26 Taser, crime scene management software, use of force trends, and the product in question…

When I engaged in the conversation I simply asked the original poster what he was scared of… He responded to simply watch the video… Again, I am already familiar with the product in question, but I watched the section of the video about the new product incase I missed something, I did not, and then I simply asked again, Ok I watched it, What are you scared of???

Some time later a new poster chimes in that since I did not watch the entire one hour video before posting that I was full of bullshit… Another moderator saw this and took action… Infractions add up and as I understand it he was automatically banned by our server since he had already received several infractions from posts in other threads…

On another note, I find the entire “Gee I hope I don’t get banned for posting in this thread” notion odd… Where does all that come from??? I have no knowledge of anyone being banned from this site for disagreeing… The strength of M4C is the ability to have a discussion… If some wander into deep water over their heads, and they try to derail the conversation with personal attacks, that is how you may end up being moderated, but not for simply expressing an opinion based of personal experience or fact… If the anarchists of the AR world find this to constraining, then hey, it’s a big internet out there , go find somewhere else you like better…

B

ZDL
03-14-09, 22:48
As one who engages in an occasional discussion here on M4C and I am sure who was the catalyst for this thread let me chime in… I have no problem if you disagree with me, or each other in a thread… The issue at hand was very simple… A forum member was concerned about a new piece of kit that had been developed for use by law enforcement by a subsidiary of the Taser corporation and posed that he was scared by it with no details… I am very familiar with this product… The original poster then referenced a three part video in his post put out by the Taser corporation CEO that touched on a number of subjects including the X26 Taser, crime scene management software, use of force trends, and the product in question…

When I engaged in the conversation I simply asked the original poster what he was scared of… He responded to simply watch the video… Again, I am already familiar with the product in question, but I watched the section of the video about the new product incase I missed something, I did not, and then I simply asked again, Ok I watched it, What are you scared of???

Some time later a new poster chimes in that since I did not watch the entire one hour video before posting that I was full of bullshit… Another moderator saw this and took action… Infractions add up and as I understand it he was automatically banned by our server since he had already received several infractions from posts in other threads…

On another note, I find the entire “Gee I hope I don’t get banned for posting in this thread” notion odd… Where does all that come from??? I have no knowledge of anyone being banned from this site for disagreeing… The strength of M4C is the ability to have a discussion… If some wander into deep water over their heads, and they try to derail the conversation with personal attacks, that is how you may end up being moderated, but not for simply expressing an opinion based of personal experience or fact… If the anarchists of the AR world find this to constraining, then hey, it’s a big internet out there , go find somewhere else you like better…

B

I got dinged for calling Obama a pussy..... I had seen and continue to see him called as such and/or worse on this forum. The reason given was "it's inappropriate to call the POTUS a pussy". There wasn't a "on this forum" disclaimer but was instead was a blanket statement formed in a way one would deliver such a lesson to a child. I was pissed, said my peace, moderator didn't respond to me.. We've moved on. I think as long as everyone understands it is what it is and as you said "its a big internet" we can all get along. Shit load of alpha mentalities on here. Sometimes the dick measuring contests get out of hand... on everyone's part. I've been posting less as the topics are either Obama this, tinfoil hat that, etc of late.

Didn't mean to air my dirty laundry here but felt it was relevant to the conversation. No hard feelings all the way around. The ding came around a time when said moderator was having to deal with a lot of different morons on here all at once. Keep it relative folks. I'm sure all of us (ok most of us) would get along just fine in person. The internet is strange.


EDIT* I reviewed the issue I referenced in this thread. It was a warning; not any points. Which means, I probably made it a bigger deal than it was worth since I can't read and ASSumed it was points. Moving on.

Jay Cunningham
03-15-09, 00:01
M4C employs an automated disciplinary system. It uses a points system to give automated bans based on accrued Infraction points.

Here is a list and brief explanation of the current categories, in order of severity:


Advertising in Discussion Forums (Includes Sigs and Titles)
Pretty self-explanatory.

Baiting / Bickering / Instigating
This will probably be the most commonly issued infraction.

Excessive Profanity
We allow cursing to an extent but when it goes WAY overboard this is appropriate.

Running up Post Count to Access Restricted Forums
Useless posts to access Member Sales or LEO forums.

Sales Forum Rules Violation / Ad Stomping
Violation of the Posting Rules for the Marketplace. Ad stomping is when useless negative commentary is posted in an ad.

Spammed Advertisements
Self-explanatory. True spammers are usually hit-and-run and will be perma-banned anyway.

Derogatory Comments / Personal Attacks
Includes inappropriate comments of a racial, religious or sexual nature - consider a warning first.

Failure to Contact the Mfgr / Dealer before Posting Issues
Self-explanatory - consider a warning first.

Failure to Disclose Relationships with Dealers / Manufacturers
Self-explanatory - consider a warning first.

Posting or Linking to Inappropriate Content
This includes pornography, but can be other disgusting or nonsensical content - consider a warning first.

Posting Personal Information without Permission
Self-explanatory - consider a warning first.

Disrespect to an Industry Professional / SME
Subjective and should usually be issued as a warning first.

Disrespect to Moderators / Staff
Subjective and should usually be issued as a warning first. This covers disrespect toward Mods / Staff as individuals and as a group.

Suggesting Illegal Activities Including Modifications to Firearms
A severe Infraction that will automatically generate a minimum 10 day ban.

Threats Against Individuals or Government Entities
A severe Infraction that will automatically generate a minimum 10 day ban.


Warnings do not generate Points, while Infractions always generate Points (that expire) and serious Infractions will generate more Points that expire after a longer duration. At certain thresholds these Points generate automatic disciplinary actions:


20 points 3 Day Ban
30 points 10 Day Ban
45 points 30 Day Ban


Permanent banning is left to Staff members after full consideration of the auto-banned individual's actions, and what they may or may not contribute otherwise. As it stands now, the maximum ban time that a user can earn through Infractions is 30 days.

This system keeps a reasonably detailed record that will allow (at a glance) other Staff and Mods to see what problems there may have been with a particular member in the past. It is expected that Moderators give a Warning first (when appropriate) before jumping straight to an Infraction. Obviously there will be times when going directly to an Infraction is the right way to do things. It is always preferable that a member edit and correct their own post rather than a Mod do it for them, if practical. Generating a Warning or Infraction automatically sends a PM to the member referencing the post in question.

It is expected that the Staff and Moderators be technical and professional at all times, polite and respectful, and help make M4C a place where people can disagree without it resulting in personal vendetta.

HAIL-CAESAR
03-15-09, 00:04
I got dinged for calling Obama a pussy..... I had seen and continue to see him called as such and/or worse on this forum. The reason given was "it's inappropriate to call the POTUS a pussy".

You think that is bad? I was banned for a week and threatened with a permanent ban for this on another site.

OP: "G. Gordon Liddy was talking on his show today about the Supreme Court ruling on Heller. It was a very interesting discussion."

ME: (next post) " I met G.G. Liddy at a luncheon in D.C. many years back. I had the pleasure to talk to him for a half hour. He is an incredibly intellectual man. I have listen to his show for many years and always like to hear him speak on a subject. You need to read his book "WILL". It is a page turner."

The tread was immediately locked.

And I was sent the PM slap. I inquired why? What did I do? (return PM)

Mod in PM: "Liddy is a POS ex-con. You of all people should know that. I despise the idiot and will not allow any talk about him. He talked of shooting LEO and you support him? Maybe that says something about you too. I locked the thread and will issue you a permanent ban if you bring Liddy up again. That is my prerogative as a Moderator and is my duty as an Administrator." (Exact copy/paste)

The Mod is not LE, I am. This was a pistol board. And in a political forum dealing with 2nd Amendment Rights and general gun law discussion.:rolleyes:

And as I went back and looked at my previous posts, hundreds (yes I mean hundreds) of my post were deleted by the Mod.

HowardCohodas
03-15-09, 04:15
I was threatened with being banned in another forum. I protested to the owner, proving the mod had lied. No sympathy. I pushed back. I got banned. The funny thing is, the mod even set up his server so my IP was rejected so I could not even look at the public spaces. Like that's going to stop anyone who knows even a smidgen about IT. I was still insulted and felt I had been done an injustice. That soon wore off.

Bottom line. Although not quite what MLK said, but in my own words. If it's not worth dying for, it's not worth living. Overly dramatic for a forum membership, but you get the point.

NoBody
03-15-09, 05:39
I wonder about the whole point system. Is M4C turning legalistic now??? I just had an auction on eBay cancelled because of a "policy" violation. I failed to use the word "Fits" in the title of holster auction (e.g., holster 'Fits' Glock...).

I hope we don't let things get as legalistic as eBay has become. M4C is an awesome source of information because of the quality. However, if fear causes members to keep quiet then the quality will suffer. I too have noticed over the past few months what seems like heavy-handedness or abusive attitudes by some moderators. But as is often the case, that's from an outsider's point of view as we (members) rarely know the entire inside story.

Two thoughts come to mind in regard to the moderators; we must respect the position, but the individual must still earn respect from the members. Second, perception is reality. Moderators need to be cognizant of how their actions may be perceived.

NB

Army Chief
03-15-09, 08:48
I wonder about the whole point system. Is M4C turning legalistic now??? I just had an auction on eBay cancelled because of a "policy" violation. I failed to use the word "Fits" in the title of holster auction (e.g., holster 'Fits' Glock...).

I hope we don't let things get as legalistic as eBay has become. M4C is an awesome source of information because of the quality. However, if fear causes members to keep quiet then the quality will suffer. I too have noticed over the past few months what seems like heavy-handedness or abusive attitudes by some moderators. But as is often the case, that's from an outsider's point of view as we (members) rarely know the entire inside story.

Two thoughts come to mind in regard to the moderators; we must respect the position, but the individual must still earn respect from the members. Second, perception is reality. Moderators need to be cognizant of how their actions may be perceived.

NB

A masterful summation.

AC

Gutshot John
03-15-09, 09:22
The thing about the "law" and legalism is that it's clear, it's obvious and anyone can see what standards they must adhere to.

Every community has laws in order to assure proper functioning, the difference between m4carbine and other boards is that those laws are clearly spelled out and not subject to the capricious whims of a moderator.

In doing so, they offer far more protection to the average board member than the moderators who might otherwise engage in the heavy-handedness we see on other boards that shall remain unnamed.

Jay Cunningham
03-15-09, 09:56
I wonder about the whole point system. Is M4C turning legalistic now??? I just had an auction on eBay cancelled because of a "policy" violation. I failed to use the word "Fits" in the title of holster auction (e.g., holster 'Fits' Glock...).

I hope we don't let things get as legalistic as eBay has become. M4C is an awesome source of information because of the quality. However, if fear causes members to keep quiet then the quality will suffer. I too have noticed over the past few months what seems like heavy-handedness or abusive attitudes by some moderators. But as is often the case, that's from an outsider's point of view as we (members) rarely know the entire inside story.

Two thoughts come to mind in regard to the moderators; we must respect the position, but the individual must still earn respect from the members. Second, perception is reality. Moderators need to be cognizant of how their actions may be perceived.

NB

I just looked at your profile and see that you have no official Warnings or Infractions issued. Your access to the forum is obviously unrestricted. What are you complaining about?

Army Chief
03-15-09, 10:15
With all due respect, you've managed to entirely miss the point, J.

This is a view that is entirely consistent with a significant portion of your core contributor base. I certainly didn't happen upon this overnight as a result of some ridiculous infraction: I've been a proactive contributor here for well over two years, and could have written this myself on more than one occasion.

One needn't be singled out for correction to see the ghosts in the machine.

AC

Jay Cunningham
03-15-09, 10:17
A masterful summation.

AC

Chief,

I checked your profile as well and you have one Infraction handed out by me due to violating the clearly spelled-out Obama/AWB policy.

Your access to the forum is still unrestricted, you simply chose not to read and understand the very clearly spelled-out rule regarding Obama and Federal AWB/gun control legislation.

The treatment of that topic became the way it did because otherwise we would currently have 17 different threads about Obama and a "new AWB."

SHIVAN has recently been pounding people about their behavior in the Member Sales Forum. Is he out of line? Absolutely not, we need him to do this and we need him to be as strict as he's been.

Ever been bitched out by an officer or NCO and you thought it was complete BS? You were pissed and indignant, right? In the end, did it really matter? You took your licks and soldiered on and the guy who bitched you out probably forgot about it sooner than you may have imagined. Why? Because to the guy bitching you out it was business, not personal. He was doing it because it was an effort to emphasize discipline and adherence to a set of standards.

In some cases you may have been bitched out and pounded for no legitimate reason - yep, that happens too. It's called dealing with humans and getting caught in the crosshairs in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe you eventually get an apology but most likely not. Maybe the guy that bitched at you himself gets bitched at and the karmic wheel comes 'round, but usually not.

Not very satisfying, I know... but in the end, probably not a big deal, either. It's only as big of a deal as you make it out to be. Remember, this is just an internet discussion forum.

We can't let the inmates run the asylum and we cannot allow precedent for members to be disrespectful to staff, mods, IP's or SME's. Members who are vocal in complaining also seem to want it both ways - they like this site for some reason (the moderation has a lot to do with why the site is the way that it is) but they don't like it when the rules are (impartially) applied to them.

Anyone who truly feels that they cannot express themselves openly without fear of retaliation please contact Site Staff and voice your concern. Staff has no problem calibrating the Moderators as they deem necessary. But if you think being a smart-ass to a Moderator or violating clearly written Rules is "expressing yourself" then you are quite mistaken.

Straight from our Rules:


Please do not post any comments that are intentional personal attacks against other members. (Including, but not limited to, name calling, comments of a racial, religious or sexual nature.) Debate is welcome and encouraged. Personal attacks, and name calling, serve no purpose in the exchange and debate of good information. Please be respectful to your fellow shooting enthusiasts whether they are new shooters or seasoned veterans.

Industry Professional / Subject Matter Expert – This forum designates a very choice few members with the title of IP / SME. These are individuals who have extensive first hand experience with the deployment of small arms, execution of proper tactics, or development of the past or current military weapons platforms. Generally speaking, they are well compensated for the information that they provide; and providing information on a free internet forum is a service to us all. Often in an internet forum other posters may not recognize the individual behind certain screen names or have checked their screen name bio. This title is a helpful tool for a viewer to identify such individuals. You are welcome to disagree with their opinion (debate is one of the best ways to fully understand and exchange information), but please take a moment to recognize where their experience and information comes from.

Differences in opinion are quite common amongst the firearms industry, as there are few absolutes in this industry. And as a result, debates over preferences are common. We hope you use this forum to share and exchange ideas and not to win arguments. It is the bigger man that agrees to disagree without being disagreeable.

:)

Jay Cunningham
03-15-09, 10:21
I wonder about the whole point system. Is M4C turning legalistic now??? I just had an auction on eBay cancelled because of a "policy" violation. I failed to use the word "Fits" in the title of holster auction (e.g., holster 'Fits' Glock...).

I hope we don't let things get as legalistic as eBay has become. M4C is an awesome source of information because of the quality. However, if fear causes members to keep quiet then the quality will suffer. I too have noticed over the past few months what seems like heavy-handedness or abusive attitudes by some moderators. But as is often the case, that's from an outsider's point of view as we (members) rarely know the entire inside story.

Two thoughts come to mind in regard to the moderators; we must respect the position, but the individual must still earn respect from the members. Second, perception is reality. Moderators need to be cognizant of how their actions may be perceived.

NB

Since the election of Barack Obama as POTUS, our site has seen a step jump in traffic. With this comes many brand new members that may not have any real idea of the proper way to conduct themselves. In an effort to bring more consistency to the moderation of the site, we asked all Moderators and Staff to use an automated Warning/Infraction System when performing routine duties. This removes much of the subjectivity from the enforcement of the rules, while still allowing enough flexibility for individual situations.

HowardCohodas
03-15-09, 10:39
Some thoughts on moderator policy.

While complaining to my lawyer about a situation that I thought was completely unfair he told me something that caused me to suck in my breath. He said, "Never confuse the law with justice." I conclude that the purpose of the law is order not justice. I think I paid $300/hr for his insights.

This forum, like every other, exists in a market place that must attract and keep customers. I see no need to worry about the moderators "getting out of control" for if they do they will fail. Economic checks and balances is still a pretty good moderator of behavior. It only fails when there is a monopoly, like government, and the market can be manipulated by fiat.

This is a good place to learn and where I like to hang out. Might I get ouchy at the margins by some decision or other? Certainly! Is the balance far in the direction of keeping me here. You bet!

Army Chief
03-15-09, 10:48
Chief,

I checked your profile as well and you have one Infraction handed out by me due to violating the clearly spelled-out Obama/AWB policy.

Your access to the forum is still unrestricted, you simply chose not to read and understand the very clearly spelled-out rule regarding Obama and Federal AWB/gun control legislation.

The treatment of that topic became the way it did because otherwise we would currently have 17 different threads about Obama and a "new AWB." ...


Neither of us really wants to devote more time to this than is warranted, so I'll make this as clear as I can, and let it go.

Brother, it is needlessly confrontational to put forward the notion that I "chose not to read and understand ..." anything. I did read. I did understand. I also was sitting 30 miles from where a gunman had just smoked a school in Stuttgart when I saw a thread talking about the President's "grades" in office, along with a comment that he hadn't yet moved on gun control. Without thinking, I made a simple comment about it being naive to presume that the ongoing agenda wouldn't include a ban proposal; especially in view of what has been happening of late. Since I don't normally take much interest in political discussions, I didn't immediately recall the policy. I violated it. I received an infraction. That was something of a $5 response to a 10-cent problem in my case, but I take no issue with you enforcing the law. What I objected to were the slightly Draconian overtones.

Since you often serve as a focal point for these kinds of issues, it comes to this: we appreciate what you do -- truly we do. M4CN is a best-in-class resource, and a lot of that is a direct reflection of the staff. What we don't always appreciate is the sometimes curt and condescending manner in which you do it. Is this an attack? Not at all. Will it likely rile you? I doubt that you're that petty. I'm not sure that you even realize when this is happening, but over time, we do. You may or may not really care about that. As a mod, perhaps you don't really have to. As a person, I believe that you should -- at least a little bit. It really is just that simple.


So let us begin anew — remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness ... ---JFK

AC

Derek_Connor
03-15-09, 11:19
Neither of us really wants to devote more time to this than is warranted, so I'll make this as clear as I can, and let it go.

Brother, it is needlessly confrontational to put forward the notion that I "chose not to read and understand ..." anything. I did read. I did understand. I also was sitting 30 miles from where a gunman had just smoked a school in Stuttgart when I saw a thread talking about the President's "grades" in office, along with a comment that he hadn't yet moved on gun control. Without thinking, I made a simple comment about it being naive to presume that the ongoing agenda wouldn't include a ban proposal; especially in view of what has been happening of late. Since I don't normally take much interest in political discussions, I didn't immediately recall the policy. I violated it. I received an infraction. That was something of a $5 response to a 10-cent problem in my case, but I take no issue with you enforcing the law. What I objected to were the slightly Draconian overtones.

Since you often serve a focal point for these kinds of issues, it comes to this: we appreciate what you do -- truly we do. M4CN is a best-in-class resource, and a lot of that is a direct reflection of the staff. What we don't always appreciate is the sometimes curt and condescending manner in which you do it. Is this an attack? Not at all. Will it likely rile you? I doubt that you're that petty. I'm not sure that you even realize when this is happening, but over time, we do. You may or may not really care about that. As a mod, perhaps you don't really have to. As a person, I believe that you should -- at least a little bit. It really is just that simple.



AC


Wow, extremely well put, and I couldn't agree more on each specific point made in the above paragraph.

NoBody
03-15-09, 13:05
I just looked at your profile and see that you have no official Warnings or Infractions issued. Your access to the forum is obviously unrestricted. What are you complaining about?

Your attitude makes my point, sir. If someone voices an objection to a perceived injustice then they are "complaining." I believe AC's words are poignant enough.

Gutshot John
03-15-09, 13:14
I don't understand where it's ok for people to complain about the mods, but when they respond pointing out inconsistencies, they've got an "attitude"? To me this seems needlessly confrontational especially when people throw in hyperbolic adjectives like "draconian" that seem a bit over-the-top and inconsistent with its definition. No one is behaving like a dictator, the rules are clearly posted, and applied consistently to everyone.

What more do you want?

SHIVAN
03-15-09, 14:01
We've been entrusted to do a job. We've been entrusted to observe peoples' posting and apply those posts against what we've been told is acceptable.

In most cases, the standards of acceptability have been tested against the highest levels of this site's staff and ownership, and deemed as "Ok".

What it boils down to is that some people don't agree with what rules have been outlined, and certainly don't think that their relatively "minor sidesteps" of those rules should be held up for scrutiny, or warrant an infraction.

My advice is to post what you feel you want to express, but be aware that the staff and mods may not agree. If we don't, expect to be given a warning, an infraction or if you continue to act outside the rules, a temporary revocation of posting privileges.

In my case, the marketplace rules are pretty black and white. Read them and abide by them -- otherwise expect that posts will disappear, and infractions will be given. If they accumulate, you will take a 3 day vacation. If they continue to accumulate, you will take a 10 day vacation. I've tried the IM route for asking people to play nice. I've posted an announcement to be aware of the rules. I bump the rules to the top once a week. Since nothing else worked, you now get deletions and infractions. Sorry, but that's the way the members of the board seem to get the message that the rules are not an advisory note, but rather an expectation of performance.




Last point of note: I can't see this thread living on much longer, as it's just turning in to a bitch session in both directions. So get your thoughts in now, as it might be closed soon.

VA_Dinger
03-15-09, 14:28
Nobody is going to argue that mistakes in moderating are not made from time to time. Everybody is human, everybody has a bad day, everybody gets busy, ETC, ETC. No different than our members. Sometimes even good guys make mistakes. That's why the disciplinary system has stages and even those can be manipulated down to several warnings if the mod/staff feels it is warranted.

Moderating a forum like this is a thankless task. Finding good quality moderators who will actually take this task seriously and actively moderate is a very tough task. You do not want some egotistical Attila the Hun with a paper-thin ego and/or bloated self-importance anymore than you want Mother Teresa who will let the forum go to hell before they step-in. Moderators are the heart & soul of this forum. Without there work M4c would be a cluster-f**k like BARF full of industry trolls, trolls in general, idiots with a keyboard talking way outside there lane, etc. So far I would have to say our mods have kept this under control. This is one of the many reasons M4c has grown so successful. Quality of the individual is why our mods are different. You can have a hundred mods per forum sub-section but if none of them will do there jobs and just want the title it does nobody any good and the forum goes to shit. Nobody wants that.

This is why our mods will always get the benefit of the doubt but if you are a member who feels they have been slighted or treated unfairly please contact me or any of the other staff members. Nobody is above rules and the situation will be handled promptly. Usually all it takes is a calm conversation to get things back on course.

NoBody
03-15-09, 14:55
Magnum P.I. was my hero, too. :D

C4IGrant
03-15-09, 15:23
I wonder about the whole point system. Is M4C turning legalistic now??? I just had an auction on eBay cancelled because of a "policy" violation. I failed to use the word "Fits" in the title of holster auction (e.g., holster 'Fits' Glock...).

I hope we don't let things get as legalistic as eBay has become. M4C is an awesome source of information because of the quality. However, if fear causes members to keep quiet then the quality will suffer. I too have noticed over the past few months what seems like heavy-handedness or abusive attitudes by some moderators. But as is often the case, that's from an outsider's point of view as we (members) rarely know the entire inside story.

Two thoughts come to mind in regard to the moderators; we must respect the position, but the individual must still earn respect from the members. Second, perception is reality. Moderators need to be cognizant of how their actions may be perceived.

NB


The infraction system is (IMHO) a very fair way to deal with issues. Let's say that a mod gets overly upset with a statement or action and want to ban someone for 30 days. Since they have to use the "system", the members action only warrants a 3 day suspension and that is all they receive.

I think as the forum grows, it becomes harder and harder to keep it going in the right direction.

Ken Hackathorn said to me that M4C is the best there. While that sounds great coming from him, it also means that the forum has no where to go but down.

Forums always have mods that are over zealous and ones that would let you get away with murder. They all equal out in the end I think.


C4

C4IGrant
03-15-09, 15:29
Nobody is going to argue that mistakes in moderating are not made from time to time. Everybody is human, everybody has a bad day, everybody gets busy, ETC, ETC. No different than our members. Sometimes even good guys make mistakes. That's why the disciplinary system has stages and even those can be manipulated down to several warnings if the mod/staff feels it is warranted.

Moderating a forum like this is a thankless task. Finding good quality moderators who will actually take this task seriously and actively moderate is a very tough task. You do not want some egotistical Attila the Hun with a paper-thin ego and/or bloated self-importance anymore than you want Mother Teresa who will let the forum go to hell before they step-in. Moderators are the heart & soul of this forum. Without there work M4c would be a cluster-f**k like BARF full of industry trolls, trolls in general, idiots with a keyboard talking way outside there lane, etc. So far I would have to say our mods have kept this under control. This is one of the many reasons M4c has grown so successful. Quality of the individual is why our mods are different. You can have a hundred mods per forum sub-section but if none of them will do there jobs and just want the title it does nobody any good and the forum goes to shit. Nobody wants that.

This is why our mods will always get the benefit of the doubt but if you are a member who feels they have been slighted or treated unfairly please contact me or any of the other staff members. Nobody is above rules and the situation will be handled promptly. Usually all it takes is a calm conversation to get things back on course.



You make a valid point about the quality of the mods/staff of this forum. What people may not realize is that the people that run this forum are HIGHLY trained by some of the VERY BEST instructors in the industry. So not only are they knowledgeable about gear and weapons, but also about their deployment.

I cannot think of any other forum that has people as experienced as the ones on here.


C4

rob_s
03-15-09, 16:20
You make a valid point about the quality of the mods/staff of this forum. What people may not realize is that the people that run this forum are HIGHLY trained by some of the VERY BEST instructors in the industry. So not only are they knowledgeable about gear and weapons, but also about their deployment.

I cannot think of any other forum that has people as experienced as the ones on here.


C4

I have no dog in this fight as generally I'm a "don't like it, leave" kind of guy, but...

This reminds me of the way they promote people in the construction trades. They take the very best carpenter that shows up to work on time and knows his job inside and out and they promote him to superintendent even though the ability to build things out of wood has nothing to do with the ability to lead and manage people. I've seen crews with a guy that's been there two weeks actually leading, while the superintendent with no management skills sits by and watches him do it.

I've been made a moderator here and there over the years, most often because someone decides that I know something about the subject at hand. Frankly, they'd generally be better off assigning someone to the job that knows nothing about the subject at hand but has great people skills and is able to leave ego and emotion out of the equation

Derek_Connor
03-15-09, 16:30
I have no dog in this fight as generally I'm a "don't like it, leave" kind of guy, but...

This reminds me of the way they promote people in the construction trades. They take the very best carpenter that shows up to work on time and knows his job inside and out and they promote him to superintendent even though the ability to build things out of wood has nothing to do with the ability to lead and manage people. I've seen crews with a guy that's been there two weeks actually leading, while the superintendent with no management skills sits by and watches him do it.

I've been made a moderator here and there over the years, most often because someone decides that I know something about the subject at hand. Frankly, they'd generally be better off assigning someone to the job that knows nothing about the subject at hand but has great people skills and is able to leave ego and emotion out of the equation

Same thing is echoed in the medical community. Some of the "best" doctors I have had the pleasure of working with have absolutely no bed side manners, nor any ability to teach, communicate effectively, or be able to be in the room and not have 50% of the people in that room hate him or her.

But I would let him/her work on my spine or my wife's spine in an instant, because they'd make the right decision, everytime, everyday.

So I'll agree with Rob, being a SME or just being experienced in what we talk about doesn't make you instantly qualified to moderate a community.

Some would ask, "what does then?" I dont know, but people within the community definitely know the good ones and bad ones off the bat pretty quickly, regardless of who endorses their actions or who looks over them.

C4IGrant
03-15-09, 16:44
I have no dog in this fight as generally I'm a "don't like it, leave" kind of guy, but...

This reminds me of the way they promote people in the construction trades. They take the very best carpenter that shows up to work on time and knows his job inside and out and they promote him to superintendent even though the ability to build things out of wood has nothing to do with the ability to lead and manage people. I've seen crews with a guy that's been there two weeks actually leading, while the superintendent with no management skills sits by and watches him do it.

I've been made a moderator here and there over the years, most often because someone decides that I know something about the subject at hand. Frankly, they'd generally be better off assigning someone to the job that knows nothing about the subject at hand but has great people skills and is able to leave ego and emotion out of the equation


The people on here are not in charge of anyone. So they do not need to have any skill with managing people. I think it is MUCH more important that a MOD or Staff can recognize BS when they see it and call that person/company on it. This GREATLY cuts down on the amount of incorrect information being passed. This is very important to the forum being viewed as a place for professionals to hang their hat.

I think what is more important is that the guys on here are basically SME's (in their own right) and that gives a lot of validity to what they say and do.

I hate nothing more than being on a forum where the mods/staff knows less about the forum they run than my English Springer Spaniel.


C4


MOLLY
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Molly%20at%20Lake%20Gaston.jpg

rob_s
03-15-09, 16:58
The people on here are not in charge of anyone. So they do not need to have any skill with managing people. I think it is MUCH more important that a MOD or Staff can recognize BS when they see it and call that person/company on it. This GREATLY cuts down on the amount of incorrect information being passed. This is very important to the forum being viewed as a place for professionals to hang their hat.

I think what is more important is that the guys on here are basically SME's (in their own right) and that gives a lot of validity to what they say and do.

I hate nothing more than being on a forum where the mods/staff knows less about the forum they run than my English Springer Spaniel.


Which is another take on things, and it's good to have it made clear that this is the take on things here. If nothing else, there's a good thing that came out of this thread. Either blatantly stated or implied, the expectations as to the interaction between moderators and membership has been made clear.

VA_Dinger
03-15-09, 17:12
I have said over and over that mods/staff are not necessarily experts at anything. Nor do I think that is a prerequisite to be a good moderator. In my opinion it is actually very dangerous for the forum if all the mods/staff think they know everything just-becuase they are mods/staff. I have always argued against this and fought it whenever I have noticed it.

I have not seen this attitude from anyone lately.

C4IGrant
03-15-09, 17:19
I have said over and over that mods/staff are not necessarily experts at anything. Nor do I think that is a prerequisite to be a good moderator. In my opinion it is actually very dangerous for the forum if all the mods/staff think they know everything just-becuase they are mods/staff. I have always argued against this and fought it whenever I have noticed it.

I have not seen this attitude from anyone lately.



You are right. Sometimes people get the title of Mod/Staff (especially on this forum) and instantly believe that they are superior to everyone. That type of attitude doesn't help the forum out in the least and is to be avoided.



C4

Derek_Connor
03-15-09, 17:24
........So they do not need to have any skill with managing people......

C4




My previous concerns have been answered then.

Thanks

-d

VA_Dinger
03-15-09, 17:49
I feel that "People Skills" are very important for a mod. Maybe even the most important skill set. Knowing the subject matter is important, just look at forums were the mods/staff/owners know less than nothing about the subject - for the most part they are a cluster f**k. Having a mix of "People Skills" and knowledge is far more preferable. It keeps the forum on track w/o it becoming dominated by personalities.

NoBody
03-15-09, 18:30
Without a doubt, M4C is the best forum I've ever been a member of. Anytime I begin to forget that all I have to do is log on to GT or TOS for 1 minute.

My concern (I do not consider this to be 'complaining') is that we are becoming a bit legalistic and that a minority of the moderators are sometimes curt and disrespectful to members. We all have bad days and sometimes we just have a case of the ass. Those are days when we probably shouldn't post. ;)

Jay Cunningham
03-15-09, 20:34
Derek,

Since you seem to think that I am:

needlessly confrontational
Draconian
curt and condescending

I decided to do some soul-searching to try and figure out a better way to handle people. So what I decided was to go back through some of your posts to find out the proper way to deal with the membership. I learned a lot:


Im still confused, you want me to smile because you bought a shitty rifle and pissed away $500?


Talk less and read more, and not neccessarily just in the "internet", life as well.


Yeah, I did, in the first post. I bluntly and politely told him to buy ammo instead of wasting his hard earned uncle sam money on a laser I wouldn't put on a nerf gun.


Ohhh boo hooo.

I pre-emptively apologized for the bluntness, it is what it is.


Sorry if our responses are blunt, but usually users requesting info about cheap ass green chicom lasers just need a little bit of help reorganizing their priorities.

While it seems very cocky and bullish up front, I can understand, we see these requests ALOT over the years.


With all do respect, you are adding to the insanity. Especially with a couple points you attempted to make which lowers your credibility on the subject at hand.

Read more post less.


Wait? I thought you said it was "drastically" different?

But now its just "simply an issue of using one hand vs. the other" ?

Which one is it Rob?

ROGER.:rolleyes:

next.


And yet again....you are out of your lane with mis-information across the board...pretty much the standard.


ETA: Just wanted to clarify that this thread got de-railed when you starting bringing in things that have absolutely nothing to do with mag changes on an AR15, on top of what you are posting is mis-information and incorrect...and how it has gotten to this point...i am not surprised at all.

There's a lot more where that came from. So thanks Derek, for all the examples for me to refer back to when I am not living up to your standards in regards to my "people skills."

:)

Derek_Connor
03-15-09, 20:58
Color me surprised you took the time to search and create a Top 10 list of my favorite posts. Thanks for putting in the foot work. How long did that take you??

I like those as well, some of my good ones. And I am sure you could find just as many on the other side of the spectrum...

One drastic difference that seems to escape your post though, I am not a moderator of this community, so I do not have to have the "people skills". Nor do I or should I set the example of how things should be run/perceived/interpreted.

But according to grant from an ealier post, neither do you, so it looks like we all have something in common.

And I have never been warned or "spoken too" about any of my posts, so they must fall within line of what is "acceptable" here at M4C.

ETA: Also, after re-reading the thread, I was agreeing to Chief's comments in general, which dont neccesarily always apply to you Katar, but to some moderators in general on M4C over the years.

Interesting how you took so much ownership of that w/your response. Wish I had paid attention in psychology.

LOKNLOD
03-15-09, 21:07
[B]
.... and that a minority of the moderators are sometimes curt and disrespectful to members.

If I might make an observation that (I think) dovetails into that point -- some moderators are much more active (or perhaps just watch over more active subforums, like General Discussion) and have a disproportionate opportunity to come across like a jerk. We've had a wave of potential ass-hats flood the forums since the election and a lot of nonsense that has needed nippin' in the bud.

Beyond that....I've not really had any issues with any moderators so I've got no dog in the fight. ETA: What I do want, is for M4C to maintain its status as the best forum of it's type.

Jay Cunningham
03-15-09, 21:17
Color me surprised you took the time to search and create a Top 10 list of my favorite posts. Thanks for putting in the foot work. How long did that take you??

I like those as well, some of my good ones. And I am sure you could find just as many on the other side of the spectrum...

One drastic difference that seems to escape your post though, I am not a moderator of this community, so I do not have to have the "people skills". Nor do I or should I set the example of how things should be run/perceived/interpreted.

But according to grant from an ealier post, neither do you, so it looks like we all have something in common.

And I have never been warned or "spoken too" about any of my posts, so they must fall within line of what is "acceptable" here at M4C.

ETA: Also, after re-reading the thread, I was agreeing to Chief's comments in general, which dont neccesarily always apply to you Katar, but to some moderators in general on M4C over the years.

Interesting how you took so much ownership of that w/your response. Wish I had paid attention in psychology.

lol1!!

No need to play coy, Derek - you have called me out so why not just own up to it? You have been poking me here and there over the last year or so for whatever reason... yes I can in fact post links to those threads as you have amply seen. You also poked Robb Jensen back when he was staff and Voodoochild as well, just for doing their jobs. Yes I can link to those as well, if you like.

So what does that tell us? You admit that your behavior, language and demeanor are not-so-nice, but that you needn't be held to a standard because you aren't a mod. Yet... where is all of the persecution? According to you and several others you should have been banned by now - right? Do you really think it's because you're the epitome of a valuable member who contributes positively to the community the majority of the time? Or do think that perhaps maybe we are not as "draconian" here as you make us out to be.

Hmmm... that's a tough one.

Jay Cunningham
03-15-09, 21:19
If I might make an observation that (I think) dovetails into that point -- some moderators are much more active (or perhaps just watch over more active subforums, like General Discussion) and have a disproportionate opportunity to come across like a jerk. We've had a wave of potential ass-hats flood the forums since the election and a lot of nonsense that has needed nippin' in the bud.

Hot damn! I think you're onto sumthin' here! Give that man a cee-gar!

If I never moderated anyone then no one would know that I existed and no one would ever have any issues with me whatsoever.

Imagine that!

:p

VA_Dinger
03-15-09, 21:53
OK, that's about enough.

This thread has gone from productive to a pissing contest.

Everybody should learn something from this.

SHIVAN
03-15-09, 21:57
...and that a minority of the moderators are sometimes curt and disrespectful to members...

As a small point of note, if all of our members were perfectly able to respect the written rules, without so much as a reminder of what those rules were since they have been posted for some time, we wouldn't need moderators or staff at all.

It's a weird paradox that the very disrespectful act of a member posting outside the rules should require a respectful response from the person assigned to monitor those rules.

I know I try to remain respectful, but I always consider that I am dealing with grown men, in most cases, who should be able to read the rules and honor them.

However, as I pointed out, the rules in one of my specific areas are black and white. Some areas like general discussion are quite gray.

Buck
03-15-09, 21:59
Always with the negative waves, Moriarty. Always with the negative waves... Why don't you knock it off with the negative waves??? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here??? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change???

Its going to be a beautiful bridge...

KevinB
03-18-09, 07:26
Okay.

Personally I think we do a good to very good job of moderating this board. We will not tolerate the tinfoil hat crowd or mickey mouse plinkers taking over this board.

Everyone is welcome to come, read, and contribute within the spirit of the site. However in order to keep the signal to noise ratio at an acceptable/benificial level, moderation is needed. Since we are all human we have different perceptions of what that level is.

I'm not Mr. Warm and Fuzzy, however I feel I am pretty even handed in the way I act on this board as a Staff member.

If you feel a Mod has wronged you, please discuss it in PM. If you do not get the responce you fell you are entitled to, then go to Staff members, and we can discuss the issue.

The best way to build an us versus them outlook is to start a thread, and get people riled up, and a mod that feels he is being singled out to get his back up.


Later, I got some shooting to do...