PDA

View Full Version : Number of Mags for STHF



Mr.Goodtimes
03-14-09, 15:12
hey yall, whats a good number of mags to have on oneself in the case of a shtf scenario? my current setup has four, im kinda thinkin about more like eight or twelve though.

dave5339
03-14-09, 15:52
No matter how many magazines you have, the answer is always simply MORE!

Really it depends on what you are comfortable with, can afford, and are available. I don't think there is any one size fits all correct answer.

Semper Fi

Abraxas
03-14-09, 15:58
No matter how many magazines you have, the answer is always simply MORE!

Really it depends on what you are comfortable with, can afford, and are available. I don't think there is any one size fits all correct answer.

Semper Fi

Man, That is the truth!!!!

Mr.Goodtimes
03-14-09, 15:58
thats kinda how i feel. I dont use a vest, i use a belt/load bearing suspenders. so im thinkin ill just cram as many on there as i can with out it being too heavy. i kinda figured theres no such thing as too many lol

ST911
03-14-09, 16:36
hey yall, whats a good number of mags to have on oneself in the case of a shtf scenario? my current setup has four, im kinda thinkin about more like eight or twelve though.

How many you should have will depend on what the scenario is, its duration, how you will travel for sustainment/resupply, and how far you will travel, and what else you'll be carrying and how. Also, will you be moving/hunkering down discreetly, and to what extent?

Having a dozen on your body might be handy, but might be too much bear for a given set of circumstances.

2-4 magazines is a lot of shooting, but perhaps not over time. Nonetheless, it's a typical basic load for many.

2-4 mags, backed up by more in a vehicle or at a base camp you're moving from or to, is likely more practical.

J Krammes
03-14-09, 18:32
I have 4 in a harnis (holds 8) and 1 in the AR, and a double mag next to the gun. I will most likely never "need" any of it, but it is ready. Most of my mags are in marked .50 cal cans. I have more than I will ever need, but I will be getting more when I can...

Jeremy

bpd315
03-14-09, 19:21
at this point, i am more converned with keeping the ones i have filled than how many i have. not being smart to your question, but the price and availability of ammo worries me. Red.

bpd315
03-14-09, 19:23
at this point, i am more concerned with keeping the ones i have filled than how many i have. not being smart to your question, but the price and availability of ammo worries me. Red.

Kimbo
03-14-09, 21:45
I have 14 30rd mags for my 6.8 LWRC PSD, 7 30rd mags for my AR15, 7 Mags for my 1911, 4 20rd drum mags 3 10rd mags for my Saiga 12. 1000rds of each caliber sitting in 5.56/.50cal ammo cans.

kaiservontexas
03-14-09, 22:24
I find 10 to be the minimum for stashing, for either rifle or handgun. Truth is the sky is the limit depending on what one may afford or store.

citizensoldier16
03-14-09, 23:01
On an everyday basis I keep my mags loaded to 28 rounds....3 on hand and 1 in the rifle. I have 150 rounds on stripper clips (for quick reloading of mags) and another 1000 rounds total in 5 200-round battle packs. As far as pistol mags, my HD gun is a G17...17 rounds in the pistol, plus another 2 full mags available. Shotgun is loaded with 5 rounds of buckshot with a full box (25) in reserve.

If it ever got to a SHTF situation I'd be loading AR mags in preparation to have about 10 available. All told I own 25 AR mags and 8 G17 mags. Thats 750 rifle rounds and 136 pistol rounds which would be available within say 10 minutes.

Bring on the zombies. :D

Outlander Systems
03-14-09, 23:22
Something to consider, in preparatory measures, is whether one is bugging out or bugging in, in a doom scenario.

Something else to keep in mind is that a loaded magazine weighs one pound, so bear that in mind as well.

Having 50 loaded magazines, ready to hit the road is stellar.

Not being able to walk 200 yards with your stash will greatly hinder you in a bug out SHTF scenario. If you're bugging in, 2,000 loaded mags would be nice. The sky is the limit.

MarshallDodge
03-15-09, 00:01
I plan on carrying 3 mags for the carbine and two for the pistol on a harnessed belt.

Extra ammo would be in an ammo can containing carbine ammo on stripper clips.. If I have to go on foot then the ammo can would be left behind.

Kimbo
03-16-09, 04:58
My ideal load for SHTF is 7 mags for my rifle and 4 mags for my pistol. But it's very true with having "too many" mags. You have to find a happy medium.

Hayduke
03-17-09, 13:09
my gut feeling is that should a SHTF event occur our ability to go mobile will be key. granted this does not work in a chem/bio attack but the aftermath of such an event may be where the real survival needs kick in.
so while i have a load of ammo at home and keep adding to it whenever i can i also have my plan to load a backpack with key defensive gear as well as lightweight backpacking equipment to keep me moving on foot away from any issues.

larry0071
03-17-09, 13:28
15 for each of the AR's.
Keep the ammo stashed for re-filling mags.

6 for each of the pistols. Same rule for ammo.

(This question has no real answer... because again, it is opinion based!)

warrior9504
03-17-09, 19:55
the military basic load for the M4 is 7 mags. That's 210 rounds which was always enough for me...but I would agree that "one more" is probably the best answer:D

Kimbo
03-18-09, 00:58
the military basic load for the M4 is 7 mags. That's 210 rounds which was always enough for me...but I would agree that "one more" is probably the best answer:D

I would tell my guys in my team to load out their mags with 28rds. Our issued mags would sometimes have problems with feeding when 30rds were in them.

kihnspiracy
03-18-09, 01:13
10 for each pistol I own. 25 for each rifle. Minimum.

warpigM-4
03-18-09, 02:49
I have 6 in my LBV ,4 in ammo pouch all Pmags and 3 USGI

stanlyonjr
03-18-09, 03:57
I would tell my guys in my team to load out their mags with 28rds. Our issued mags would sometimes have problems with feeding when 30rds were in them.

Are you running a MP5 just loading 28 instead of 30 Kimbo?

Kimbo
03-18-09, 05:04
Nope no mp5, I hope you don't think I'm some mall ninja :p

ICANHITHIMMAN
03-18-09, 09:00
I have well over 100 30rd mags for my M4 and at least 30 20 rd mags. 13 for my M1A and 10 for my 1911.

Beat Trash
03-18-09, 21:06
hey yall, whats a good number of mags to have on oneself in the case of a shtf scenario? my current setup has four, im kinda thinkin about more like eight or twelve though.

The important part of this question is the part about having "on one's self". It would depend on what you are doing. And it would depend on how much other crap you have to carry, and for how far. Would you have the ability to use a vehicle to restock from? What is the threat level? Are you alone, or with others who are armed?

The amount of magazines I'd want on hand just watching over the neighborhood would be different than the amount of magazines if bugging out on foot.

I have a chest rig that holds 8 AR mags and 2 pistol mags. The minimum I'd load this with would be 4 AR mags. I can't see me carrying more than 8+1, and yet still be able to carry food, water, ect.

Pistol mags, 2 on the belt. If donning the chest rig, then maybe an extra pistol mag in the chest rig.

If you are talking about how many to have on hand, then it's a totally different story. I always recommend that one double their "load out", to account for mags that become lost, worn, ect. This is a minimum.

Cameron
03-18-09, 23:46
I like to make sure that I at least have 1 in my gun.

Gentoo
03-20-09, 00:21
I have:
21 mags for my AR
6 each for my 2 Glock 19s

Mr.Goodtimes
03-20-09, 17:47
The important part of this question is the part about having "on one's self". It would depend on what you are doing. And it would depend on how much other crap you have to carry, and for how far. Would you have the ability to use a vehicle to restock from? What is the threat level? Are you alone, or with others who are armed?

The amount of magazines I'd want on hand just watching over the neighborhood would be different than the amount of magazines if bugging out on foot.

I have a chest rig that holds 8 AR mags and 2 pistol mags. The minimum I'd load this with would be 4 AR mags. I can't see me carrying more than 8+1, and yet still be able to carry food, water, ect.

Pistol mags, 2 on the belt. If donning the chest rig, then maybe an extra pistol mag in the chest rig.

If you are talking about how many to have on hand, then it's a totally different story. I always recommend that one double their "load out", to account for mags that become lost, worn, ect. This is a minimum.

im thinkin you really cant have too many in a bug out situation... i think in a watching a neighborhood situation, four would be plenty as more would be available. really its all about resupply, i think if i was going to be moving on foot a fair distance i would bring 12.

Beat Trash
03-20-09, 18:42
im thinkin you really cant have too many in a bug out situation... i think in a watching a neighborhood situation, four would be plenty as more would be available. really its all about resupply, i think if i was going to be moving on foot a fair distance i would bring 12.

I agree with you, to a point.

If forced to Bug Out on foot (my last resort, would prefer to ride vs. walk if it's an option) I would be carrying a pack loaded with non gun stuff, food, eater, first aid, cloths, ect. What I would want, and what I can effectively carry over an extended distance and time are two different things.

If bugging out in a vehicle, I would have the same chest rig and BOB, in case I had to abandon the vehicle and go on foot. But in the vehicle would be 50 cans containing loaded magazines. At my destination would be additional 50 cal cans loaded with ammunition, and some more mags.

I guess the point I am trying to make is if bugging out on foot, guns and ammunition would make up but a portion of the gear you would have to carry to sustain yourself.

Outlander Systems
03-21-09, 10:44
"I guess the point I am trying to make is if bugging out on foot, guns and ammunition would make up but a portion of the gear you would have to carry to sustain yourself."

Spoken very wisely.

I'm of the volition that magazines/armament are a lower-tier priority in a survival situation than a lot of people envision. Do they have their place? Absolutely. I think a lot of folks put a higher priority on weaponry and SD, than on down 'an dirty staying 6' above ground.

Is a weapon system part of my SHTF plan? Of course; however, if it came down to it, and I was forced to choose one or the other, a multi-tool takes precedence over the weapon.

If you're on your own, and buggin' out, you'd be best served to avoid and evade confrontation if at all possible. Any entanglements and "combat" would be against multiple assailants anyway, in which case you're most likely outgunned and outflanked.

Common sense measures can very much decrease your odds of a random encounter, and reduce the chances of having to react to contact. The solution is to avoid contact as much as possible.

Being slippery > Being Rambo

The simplest way to avoid contact in a retreat/bugout scenario?

STAY THE **** OFF OF ALL ROADWAYS.

Every waterhead from here to Kalamazoo is going to be using the interstate and highway system, regardless of their mode of transportation. Going off-road slows your travel time, but also places you away from two-legged predators.

If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.

Lumpy196
03-21-09, 20:52
I would think 10-20 would be enough for the average user. Unless you're part of a defensive group, you will be avoiding fights not engaging in running gun battles if you can help it.

Jerm
03-21-09, 22:57
I'm of the volition that magazines/armament are a lower-tier priority in a survival situation than a lot of people envision. Do they have their place? Absolutely. I think a lot of folks put a higher priority on weaponry and SD, than on down 'an dirty staying 6' above ground.

Is a weapon system part of my SHTF plan? Of course; however, if it came down to it, and I was forced to choose one or the other, a multi-tool takes precedence over the weapon.

Really?A multi-tool over a firearm?

I can see how a multi-tool would be desirable but...

I live in a very rural area.My AR would be as much(probably more) about supplying/supplementing food as it would be for protection.The one i took out and about wih me anyway.Although the ability to do both well is obviously ideal.Hence the AR being my choice weapon.

Even in the urban and suburban area's i've lived in you were never far from game of some type.Im also assuming you would be making your way out of those areas into more remote places as quickly as possible.

I intend to bug-in if at all possible in the event of some large scale catastrophe.So the more mags on hand the better.No need to pack them arround all at once.I would say 4-8(+1) depending on how far i intended to go and for how long.

If things are that bad here i doubt there would be anywhere to bug out to.

Mac5.56
03-22-09, 10:32
"I guess the point I am trying to make is if bugging out on foot, guns and ammunition would make up but a portion of the gear you would have to carry to sustain yourself."

Spoken very wisely.

I'm of the volition that magazines/armament are a lower-tier priority in a survival situation than a lot of people envision. Do they have their place? Absolutely. I think a lot of folks put a higher priority on weaponry and SD, than on down 'an dirty staying 6' above ground.

Is a weapon system part of my SHTF plan? Of course; however, if it came down to it, and I was forced to choose one or the other, a multi-tool takes precedence over the weapon.

If you're on your own, and buggin' out, you'd be best served to avoid and evade confrontation if at all possible. Any entanglements and "combat" would be against multiple assailants anyway, in which case you're most likely outgunned and outflanked.

Common sense measures can very much decrease your odds of a random encounter, and reduce the chances of having to react to contact. The solution is to avoid contact as much as possible.

Being slippery > Being Rambo

The simplest way to avoid contact in a retreat/bugout scenario?

STAY THE **** OFF OF ALL ROADWAYS.

Every waterhead from here to Kalamazoo is going to be using the interstate and highway system, regardless of their mode of transportation. Going off-road slows your travel time, but also places you away from two-legged predators.

If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.

Finally I am starting to hear some people talking some sense in this thread.

No offense to the forum as I understand it is all about m4's but people seem to have a pretty romantic and un-realistic idea of how to survive real situations.

Unless of course it's zombies.

I would like to suggest to all of the people in this thread that in order to honestly answer this question, that you pack a 50 pound pack, then add water on top of the fifty pounds, then add your m4 with one 30 rnd Mag, on a sling. Go out onto BLM land or state land somewhere and do a 5 mile hike with no prep, no "getting in shape" if you aren't already.

Then if you can do that try it with the 10 + mag's minimum some of you are talking about as being critical!

Mac5.56
03-22-09, 10:40
I intend to bug-in if at all possible in the event of some large scale catastrophe.So the more mags on hand the better.No need to pack them arround all at once.I would say 4-8(+1) depending on how far i intended to go and for how long.


Serious question:

Under what situation (other then say the scene in "I Am Legend", or all out urban warfare) do you see yourself expending more then 60 rounds of .223 ammunition during a Shelter in Place (bug in) scenario?

Honestly please create a scenario for me in which you would need more then two loaded magazines on hand?

I understand that mags fail. I also understand that a Shelter in Place situation may last longer then one scenario/confrontation.

But I fail to see how dozens of loaded magazines is something that is "critical" to a Bug-In scenario. So please give me an example of a scenario in which you feel they are.

Outlander Systems
03-22-09, 10:45
"Really? A multi-tool over a firearm? I can see how a multi-tool would be desirable but..."

It sounds extreme, but I was attempting to make a point. If bugging-in, it's an entirely different animal altogether.

I'm speaking solely on bugging-out, on foot. At 1lb a piece, mags get heavy, quick.

My pack's already pushing 30lbs without weapon, weapon maintenance, or magazines, and with only 1 litre of water.

I'm attempting to convey the point that folks are putting weapons and ammunition as the highest priority, and having no food/water/shelter/sleep system/etc.

If the goal is to remain 6' above dirt, blasters have their place, but their ranking on the priority tier is less than other items.

My argument that the most important pieces of kit, for survival's sake, would be a quality sleeping bag, and a means of water treatment, shortly followed by firecrafting materials.

Do I personally plan on having self-defense measures on hand? Absolutely.

Do I plan on bugging-out, on foot, with 20+ mags? Hell no. I'd rather have additional lbs of food. Again, YMMV.

SIGguy229
03-22-09, 10:52
Considering everyday (where I am) the S could HTF, I have my basic load (6+1, M4 mags; 3+1, M9), I also have 6 M4 mags and 4 M9 mags in my go bag (plus water, MRE, GPS, map, compass), plus a vehicle go bag with another 6 M4 mags...

Outlander Systems
03-22-09, 10:56
Eventually I'll put together a Bugout Box, and do a thread on it.

The logistics behind a vehicle Bugout Box are completely and totally different from humpin it on foot.

Jerm
03-22-09, 13:31
Honestly please create a scenario for me in which you would need more then two loaded magazines on hand?

Two mags?.

I would personally want at least two mags for a single determined atttacker.I dont assume things like "they'll run as soon as they see my magic stick" or "i can handle anything with 3 rounds".Either may be quite possible or even the most likely occurrence.But its not an assumption im comfortable making.

"Better to have and not to need..."

So for a scenerio calling for more than two mags?....

How about one or two determined attackers with decent cover?

I may have misled before unintentionally.I dont keep dozens of loaded mags.The norm for me is probably 2-3 AR mags.That may go up by 1-2 more as i finish my new build.

In the event of a major catastrophe that sent people flooding into this area from the population centers.Or if the supply was cut off and people started getting desperate.You better believe i'd have more than two mags loaded up.If they turned out to not be needed...Great!

I think there are alot of people out there with guns who would feel that it was a ticket to take whatever they needed.Some are already running in armed groups as we speak.

Outlander Systems
03-22-09, 18:35
My personal answer?

6+1

texasrangers
04-07-09, 01:47
hmmm a situation where you would need more than two mags while bugging in...


That is the second most likely scenario i plan for...


when the hyperinflation hits/dollar implodes or whatever economic calamity we are inflicted with by the Federal Reserve and its international banking establishment masters there will not be much food on the shelf...theres probably about 5000 gang members in the city that I live incredibly close to - maybe more. Since I've got food I become a target. a highly valued target. Alot of those gang members have been in the military. What if, while they are spilling out of the city desperately searching for food, they come across me? What if I'm forced to cook food outside, and they smell it? Or they come searching house to house because there are alot of them and they have weapons and they can? What if theres 5 of them? 10? 20? 50? God forbid there would be more than that, but who knows.

I really don't think it takes a rocket scientist - or I am just the only one who thinks like this?

Failure2Stop
04-07-09, 03:02
I think that many people grossly overestimate their individual combat prowess, weight-bearing ability and general fieldcraft. Now, when it comes to this type of scenario my opinon is about as weighty as a butterfly fart, but think about this logically.

Priority should be placed on having a bunch of friends and stuff needed for basic survival. Two or three mags between the gun and the user is more than likely more than you will be able to live through. The more mags you carry the heavier you are, the heavier you are the slower you move, the slower you move. . . I think it is pretty obvious where I am going with this. Three mags equals 84 to 91 shots. With a 1 to 10 stop/fail ratio that means that you can drop 9 bad guys. 9 to 1 odds is bad. Really, really bad. As in, expect to use a few tourniquets and a few ACSs kind of bad. Assuming that the 9 BGs only have 1 mag each in their G17s, and have a 1 to 51 hit/miss ratio, you are looking at taking 3 bullet wounds. Assuming that you aren't planning on preemptive strikes, the BGs will have the element of suprise when they strike, and probably a coordinated plan.

Given that situation, two pounds of medical gear is worth a hell of a lot more than 60 more bullets that you won't live to fire. What about water? Food? Tools?
If you don't have e few people to watch your back while you sleep it doesn't matter how much ammo you are carting around. There is a very good reason that professional trained soldiers operate in teams, but their load is generally geared toward sustained combat. All items come with a weight and bulk penalty, and with ammo in that situation you can quickly reach the point of diminishing return.

At least that's my thought on the matter.

RogerinTPA
04-07-09, 09:54
8-12 mags per AR and 5-6 mags per pistol if bugging out and a MRE box of loaded mags in my vehicle along with a week's worth of water, food and med supplies.



As far as SHTF scenarios, another thing you must consider is, where are you when things go south. Some food for thought:

Are you at home? (Greater that 50% chance you won't be)

In Transit? (the most likely scenario)

Distance from home or work. (I drive 20 miles each way)

Are you physically fit enough to E&E home, to friends or safe haven?

Where are your wife and kids? (At work? In school? At the Mall?)

Is you home in or near the danger area?

Has traffic been diverted one way to prevent you from making it home?

Do you have a firearm on you so you have the option of self defense and "Trading up" when the need arises?



What's in your vehicle and/or on your person, will determine your likely hood of surviving a SHTF situation and getting home, in order to exercise your other survival options.

SloaneRanger
04-08-09, 21:40
This scenario should be looked at just like a tasking for a 4-man SOF brick as the MO/objectives are strikingly similar in many ways.
You need Comms, Food, water, Shelter, medical supplies as well as a primary/secondary weapon and navigation equipment amongst other things. Your MO/SOP will be very similar to the SOF patrol by necessity. You need to be (i) able to sustain yourself with food, water, shelter/warmth & medical/first aid (ii) able to communicate with base (iii) operate/navigate stealthily and undetected by hostile elements (iv) accomplish the mission objectives [survive-relocate to safe environment] (v) be self sufficient [ie all gear needed will be humped by you] (vi) defend yourself/overcome a threat in the event of a contact/confrontation by possibly numerically superior forces (vii) have an immediate action plan for all eventualities.

Since you are carrying all gear yourself, likely on foot for some or much of it, weight/bulk is a consideration as is maneuverability. No SOF carries 20-30 AR mags per man. Only the brick minimi gunner carries 500+ rds. 8 AR mags is SOP for SEALs/SAS/SBS. 10-12 may be carried if a sustained contact is expected. 3 x 15 rd mags or 4 or 5 10 rders is sufficient for a sidearm. That's 10-15lbs of ammo. Add a sidearm, primary weapon, comms gear, med kit, nav gear, food, water, survival gear, tools, sleep gear, extra clothes and the other gear you should have it adds up. Gear should be seperated into line 1, 2 and three groups based on degree of importance and ability to do without it if you have to ditch it. There is a reason the weapon and mag are line 1 gear. It's like Amex..you don't leave home with out it. 80-100 lbs of gear is alot to yomp around for those advocating taking 25 loaded AR mags.

Extra ammo and supplies can be left at strategic locations and not carried and can be visited for resupply. If this is not an option due to having to put distance under one's belt, if things are that bad that you're E&E'ing for your life you're already justified resupplying forcibly by taking or pilfering.

FromMyColdDeadHand
04-09-09, 01:28
I think that many people grossly overestimate their individual combat prowess, weight-bearing ability and general fieldcraft. Now, when it comes to this type of scenario my opinon is about as weighty as a butterfly fart, but think about this logically.

Priority should be placed on having a bunch of friends and stuff needed for basic survival. Two or three mags between the gun and the user is more than likely more than you will be able to live through. The more mags you carry the heavier you are, the heavier you are the slower you move, the slower you move. . . I think it is pretty obvious where I am going with this. Three mags equals 84 to 91 shots. With a 1 to 10 stop/fail ratio that means that you can drop 9 bad guys. 9 to 1 odds is bad. Really, really bad. As in, expect to use a few tourniquets and a few ACSs kind of bad. Assuming that the 9 BGs only have 1 mag each in their G17s, and have a 1 to 51 hit/miss ratio, you are looking at taking 3 bullet wounds. Assuming that you aren't planning on preemptive strikes, the BGs will have the element of suprise when they strike, and probably a coordinated plan.

Given that situation, two pounds of medical gear is worth a hell of a lot more than 60 more bullets that you won't live to fire. What about water? Food? Tools?
If you don't have e few people to watch your back while you sleep it doesn't matter how much ammo you are carting around. There is a very good reason that professional trained soldiers operate in teams, but their load is generally geared toward sustained combat. All items come with a weight and bulk penalty, and with ammo in that situation you can quickly reach the point of diminishing return.

At least that's my thought on the matter.

That sounded like a trick math question from high school. All the facts about ammo and then, where's you med kit.

Interesting thread. Hadn't really thought about care packages for family members. Happy Easter, don't open it.

30 cal slut
04-09-09, 07:40
there's near-term SHTF and then there's post-apocalyptic longer-term SHTF.

in the event of the latter ... which could be, say, the economic collapse of the United States, one could argue that you can never have enough mags, even if you don't fire a shot.

simply for the fact that mags will likely be useful barter, when our (increasingly worthless) paper currency holds no tangible value.

Mr.Goodtimes
04-09-09, 19:54
i ended up going with an SKD universal chest rig, so, i can hold eight ar mags and 4 pistol mags. i feel pretty comfortable with that. i live only 1.5 miles from my work, if i had to, im in good enough shape to run home in 9 min flat. i keep a handgun (beretta 92) in my truck with a spare mag. once home id feel pretty comfortable.

SloaneRanger
04-09-09, 20:58
there's near-term SHTF and then there's post-apocalyptic longer-term SHTF.

in the event of the latter ... which could be, say, the economic collapse of the United States, one could argue that you can never have enough mags, even if you don't fire a shot.

simply for the fact that mags will likely be useful barter, when our (increasingly worthless) paper currency holds no tangible value.

This is true...and everyone is free to take as many with them as they want.

however ... and here is where I personally disagree...As has been said..whatever you pack with you, you need to be able to carry. 25-30 loaded 30 rd AR mags is 25-30 lbs....which means 25-30 mags may be great but you probably made a huge tactical goat**** since you had to leave, or will eventually have to leave behind, stuff that really would have been more important and could have saved your life.

This is not directed at anyone in particular...but most regular everyday people probably have no idea what a total embuggerance yomping 80-100 lbs of gear for, say, 30+ miles really is. Factor in the days when you are cold and wet. You should be moving mostly at night and laying up during the day. There will be times when you are discouraged. Try moving through woods at night. Moving quickly ad stealthily with a 80lb bergen on your back. Tree stumps, briars, foxholes and ditches become your enemy. Fall one leg in a gopher hole while moving quickly with a full combat load and you're lucky if you don't break a leg. That extra 15-20 lbs may be the difference between being able to go on and not. Add a little fear to the mix, a little anxiety and many would change their mind. You can only take what you can carry. Your best tactic is to avoid any confrontations if at all possible. A critical part of survival/SERE/E&E training is being tactically smarter than those that you are trying to elude. In the real world if you fail at that your likely dead or captured anyway.

SAS/SBS/SEAL patrols know that they are tactically far superior to those they go up against on a recce patrol, but they try to avoid engaging them if at all possible. Even with their force multiplier effect they know they can most likely not survive a sustained firefight. As a result carrying 25-30 30 rd AR mags isn't SOP.

I don't care how bad it gets if the US economy collapses, I highly doubt it'll be a hairier place than running, say a seal team patrol 30 miles behind enemy lines in the Tora Bora tribal border region of those shiteholes they call Aghanistan and Pakistan...And 10-12 mags is enough for them. Of course YMMV.

nemohunter
04-10-09, 20:56
a semi auto without a mag is a piss poorly designed single shot. your mag is your weapons life. without it both it and maybe you are dead. get as many as you can and get more anytime you can. i have about 21 6.8 mags right now. have 3 .223 mags with 5 more on the way. probly gonna get at least 20 more.

Failure2Stop
04-10-09, 21:14
a semi auto without a mag is a piss poorly designed single shot. your mag is your weapons life. without it both it and maybe you are dead. get as many as you can and get more anytime you can. i have about 21 6.8 mags right now. have 3 .223 mags with 5 more on the way. probly gonna get at least 20 more.

This post made me ponder something, what does the OP mean by "Number of mags for SHTF"?

I assumed that he meant how many mags to have in immeidate access.
However it seems that many here are talking about how many mags to have available for transport.

I still stick with my "no more than 3 mags" stuck to me for immediate access, and the only reason I don't say just 2 is because sometimes mags will puke on you and it is better to be able to maintain an immediate reload should you cycle through 30 rounds out of fear the first time you really need to use the gun.

Mags available for resupply? That's one of those things that people tend to top out with as many as they own. In that sense, it goes back to the age old question, "how many is enough?", to which the unequivocal answer is 42 ;).

WS6
04-11-09, 05:00
8-12 mags per AR and 5-6 mags per pistol if bugging out and a MRE box of loaded mags in my vehicle along with a week's worth of water, food and med supplies.



As far as SHTF scenarios, another thing you must consider is, where are you when things go south. Some food for thought:

Are you at home? (Greater that 50% chance you won't be)
I have nothing at home that I care about besides extra ammo and my pet python.

In Transit? (the most likely scenario)
I drive a performance oriented car and could escape most anything chasing me as long as we stuck to paved roads.
Distance from home or work. (I drive 20 miles each way)
jogging distance to work, 15 minutes to my college or any of the hospitals I train at.

Are you physically fit enough to E&E home, to friends or safe haven?
I can run/jog about 8 miles before I need to walk.

Where are your wife and kids? (At work? In school? At the Mall?)
Totally unaffiliated.

Is you home in or near the danger area?
Yes, I live in an appartment near a very major military base.

Has traffic been diverted one way to prevent you from making it home?
It most likely would not be given my location.

Do you have a firearm on you so you have the option of self defense and "Trading up" when the need arises?
No, sadly, I commute daily to a college campus and that is a no-no to some degree.



What's in your vehicle and/or on your person, will determine your likely hood of surviving a SHTF situation and getting home, in order to exercise your other survival options.

A knife, collapsable baton, tool-kit, mag-lite, and my most valuable resource of all: the ruthless desire to thrive.


I always look at it this way. If I can get to my AR and my ammo, all else will follow as all else can be obtained with the above. I wouldn't even need that much ammo, just a mag or two. I could obtain more from unfortunates who did not manage to obtain mine themselves. There is nowhere in the city I could not get to my appartment from within 5-10 minutes if I really needed to open her up and get somewhere. Most roads here can sustain 120-160mph and so I would have a VERY short commute. If I needed to go on-foot to avoid traffic or road blocks, my trip would be lengthened to 1-1.5 hours. I assume I would get at least SOME distance in my car, and I can travel at about 6mph on foot for sustained periods of time. (about 2-3 hours).

The above is assuming a maximum wet-dream of every bunker-living survivalist junkie. I highly doubt I would have a need to do anything as drastic as detailed above, but when I think Shit The Fan Hit like the OP stated in the title, I think of total societal melt-down where civil-war or something has broken out and no social norms or mores are applicable.

My bug-out plan long-term would involve going to a non-populated area such as some parts of Arkansas or if I could swing a plane or persuade someone to fly said plane, Alaska, depending on military presence.

Sadly, I don't think the shit will ever hit the fan here. I think that democracy will die a death punctuated by the applause of lock-stepping idiots who want their government to do their thinking for them. Instead of the shit hitting the fan, it will slowly rise around our ankles, waist, chest, and eventually suffocate us. I say sadly, because if the shit ever DID hit the fan, the people with the biggest guns and best brains would survive, and for better or worse, their survival would eventually lead to a stronger nation if we didn't nuke ourselves.

Abraxas
04-11-09, 05:29
[COLOR="red"]

Sadly, I don't think the shit will ever hit the fan here. I think that democracy will die a death punctuated by the applause of lock-stepping idiots who want their government to do their thinking for them. Instead of the shit hitting the fan, it will slowly rise around our ankles, waist, chest, and eventually suffocate us. I say sadly, because if the shit ever DID hit the fan, the people with the biggest guns and best brains would survive, and for better or worse, their survival would eventually lead to a stronger nation if we didn't nuke ourselves.

I agree with this statement. Though democracy IS the slow death of our Republic.

Mr.Goodtimes
04-11-09, 06:59
ws6 you couldnt have said it better bro. i totally agree. especially that last part, i dont think that democracy will go down and then rise again in some sort of patriotic back to what our founding fathers wanted revolution. like you said, the shit will slowly rise till it just suffocates us. i also agree that, those we would emerge a much stronger nation.

also, i agree about obtaining ammo. i dont stock pile much ammo, id rather spend my money on other things, like shooting my ammo. i have enough ammo stockpiled so that, when if/shtf, ive got enough to get my self some more.

RogerinTPA
04-11-09, 10:46
A knife, collapsable baton, tool-kit, mag-lite, and my most valuable resource of all: the ruthless desire to thrive.


I always look at it this way. If I can get to my AR and my ammo, all else will follow as all else can be obtained with the above. I wouldn't even need that much ammo, just a mag or two. I could obtain more from unfortunates who did not manage to obtain mine themselves. There is nowhere in the city I could not get to my appartment from within 5-10 minutes if I really needed to open her up and get somewhere. Most roads here can sustain 120-160mph and so I would have a VERY short commute. If I needed to go on-foot to avoid traffic or road blocks, my trip would be lengthened to 1-1.5 hours. I assume I would get at least SOME distance in my car, and I can travel at about 6mph on foot for sustained periods of time. (about 2-3 hours).

The above is assuming a maximum wet-dream of every bunker-living survivalist junkie. I highly doubt I would have a need to do anything as drastic as detailed above, but when I think Shit The Fan Hit like the OP stated in the title, I think of total societal melt-down where civil-war or something has broken out and no social norms or mores are applicable.

My bug-out plan long-term would involve going to a non-populated area such as some parts of Arkansas or if I could swing a plane or persuade someone to fly said plane, Alaska, depending on military presence.

Sadly, I don't think the shit will ever hit the fan here. I think that democracy will die a death punctuated by the applause of lock-stepping idiots who want their government to do their thinking for them. Instead of the shit hitting the fan, it will slowly rise around our ankles, waist, chest, and eventually suffocate us. I say sadly, because if the shit ever DID hit the fan, the people with the biggest guns and best brains would survive, and for better or worse, their survival would eventually lead to a stronger nation if we didn't nuke ourselves.

Here in FL, our SHTF comes several times a year via hurricane (most likely scenario for those of us living in the SE US), followed by looting and the occasional riot (if you are in south florida). No matter how fast your car goes, fail to get out early, and you will be caught in evacuation traffic or stuck hunkering down in either your home, vehicle or on the side of the road after you've run out of gas (Think Katrina).

I travel a lot (Airline Pilot) so I have to think along the lines of E&E to my home with what I got in my vehicle (Containing a pistol, 2 mags, and BOB containing 2 MREs, water, large folding knife, 2 BIC lighters, flashlight, 3 extra pistol mags, and 3 AR Mags), IF, it's still there, functional, and hasn't been broken into when I get to it . Then assessing the situation from home (Continue with a well armed & supplied E&E to a fall back position, or well armed and stocked Home DIP (Die in place)/Hunker Down, if it's still standing, if it hasn't been looted).

Mr.Goodtimes
04-11-09, 11:39
rharris, im from the tampa bay area as well. my dad (yes still reaping the bonuses of living at home while in college, thanks dad! :)) is a pilot as well. flies for a fairly well known partial ownership company.

so i know all about hurricanes, however, the past year or two has been pretty dry. if a katrina comes, i think were pretty ready, especially defense wise. assuming our house is still standing, we have plenty of ammo, guns, and essentials to last us quite some time. were on high ground, so while flooding is possible, its less of an issue, wind is a bigger concern. however, were in a subdivision so, and have an orange grove to our rear, so, hopefully the other houses/trees will help break up the wind.

our idea has always been to hunker down and stay put, but, then again, i dont remember the last time florida was faced with a storm that was actually worthy of evacuation. id have to discuss that with my dad. i think that if that were to be the case, wed probably hook the fifth wheel up to the beast and head north.

The_War_Wagon
04-11-09, 20:08
hey yall, whats a good number of mags to have on oneself in the case of a shtf scenario? my current setup has four, im kinda thinkin about more like eight or twelve though.

Well, are you planning on staying PUT, or 'running & gunning?' :confused: I think this rather quickly turned into a thread about the latter. My thoughts however, are about how many you'll need, for the bug - IN.

SHTF. That has many definitions. If you were in New Orleans during Katrina, THAT was a SHTF-scenario for sure, even though it was sunny and in the mid-70's in Pittsburgh that day - NOT a SHTF-scenario here.

Greensburg, KS last year, when the F5 tornado roared through that night, and leveled all but ONE house in the town - that was SHTF there, but not even in KC, just a ways up the road.

Let's say, in the LOCALIZED (even if it IS city/region-wide) scenario, your goal is not to be The Omega Man, so much as it is to survive the initial hours, days, perhaps even weeks, until some 'normalcy' returns. HELP will be coming, Red Cross will be dispatched, the National Guard might even assist, and REBUILDING will be a priority. In that case, you want to primarily repel looters in the initial shock and in the immediate hours afterward, and while some mags will be handy (preferably more than TWO! :eek:), one Tac Vest's worth would be a good start.

Remember: looters will be looking for an EASY score, not the OK Corral. Check some YouTubes of the '92 LA Riots; notice what you see as the camera pans along the street: burned out building, burned out building, burned out building - Korean grocery store with rifle-toting Koreans on the roof - burned out building, burned out building... You realize quickly enough, that resistance is a GOOD thing - it keeps you alive, more often than not.

Having lived IN da' 'BURGH the past 6 years (after having grown up in Podunk, NC pop.1,200!), keep in mind your surroundings. If you think you MIGHT encounter crack/meth/dope heads, wandering about dazed or in a rage looking for a fix after a SHTF situation, prepare ACCORDINGLY. They will be irrational, and unresponsive to the sorts of threats that would make most of us crap our pants AS we turned to run the other direction. Have ENOUGH gun and ENOUGH ammo, to save your derriere and those of your loved ones, because they will be MERCILESS. If you've ever seen an episode of "COPS," where it takes 20 cops to gang tackle a crackhead, and they have to plug the tazer into an 880 volt industrial outlet, to get enough juice to subdue him, imagine how YOU'RE going to do it, mano e mano! :eek::eek::eek: Yeah... have PLENTY of gun and ammo...

But let's say you're in Jericho, KS (or Albany, NY, for those of you who know your made-for-TV-70's-style-SHTF-movies :D), and as the last survivors, there ain't no Red Cross - no National Guard - no Operation Hopeychangey :rolleyes: - comin' to save YOU! In the immortal words of that frontier pastor of doomsday - "Son... you're on you're OWN!" NOW how many mags are appropriate? Oh - that's easy. ALL of them.

Assuming folk from Jericho & Albany resume normal trade relations eventually, here's where you get to try out the idea, that LTC Jeff Cooper termed, "ballistic wampum." As the owner of sayyyyy, a couple HUNDRED AR mags, you might suddenly find, a few mags are worth... a GROSS of toilet paper. Load 'em with LIVE ammo, and suddenly you're the proud owner of... a deuce & a half of MRE's! :p Basically speaking, you're sitting on a gold mine (& for a couple mags more, you can have THAT, too!).

I wouldn't exactly leave them laying around the living room floor, of whatever's left of ye olde homestead, but I'll let other people who are better experienced at caching such things away in 'safe places' explain that concept. The point being, if you're where you're GONNA be, once the poop impacts the rotating oscillator, societally-speaking, the CORRECT number of magazines to own will be, "MORE."

RWK
04-11-09, 20:58
Why bother to have more than one? The coppers will be around in their looted Cadillacs to confiscate your guns and beat up your granny. Ok, that was dirty but, I couldn't resist. ;)

My rig is set up for six rifle magazines. I keep six loaded mags in it and six additional loaded mags in the safe. The rest of my mags are unloaded and stored in marked ammo cans.

Voodoochild
04-11-09, 21:54
You can have all the mags in the world but if you don't have anything to put in them then it is a moot point.

The_War_Wagon
04-12-09, 14:43
You can have all the mags in the world but if you don't have anything to put in them then it is a moot point.

Yep. I keep mine loaded. Since SHTF don't keep business hours, when it comes, you don't want to be fiddling around trying to LOAD mags; you wanna say, "Pass me ANOTHER (loaded) mag, please!" :D

kbrdann
04-12-09, 16:39
150 30rnd M-4 mags
50 15rnd glock 19 mag

You can never have to much ammo. So now its time to get ammo.

Shotdown
04-12-09, 16:46
Right now, if I had to leave the house on foot then I'd take 5-30rd mags and 1-20rd mag for my AR. I'd also take my G23 with at least 3-13 rd mags. Plus food and water, split between three people that can carry items in my family. In a car, I'd take all of the ammo, food, water & meds that I have.

WS6
04-12-09, 16:51
Here in FL, our SHTF comes several times a year via hurricane (most likely scenario for those of us living in the SE US), followed by looting and the occasional riot (if you are in south florida). No matter how fast your car goes, fail to get out early, and you will be caught in evacuation traffic or stuck hunkering down in either your home, vehicle or on the side of the road after you've run out of gas (Think Katrina).

I travel a lot (Airline Pilot) so I have to think along the lines of E&E to my home with what I got in my vehicle (Containing a pistol, 2 mags, and BOB containing 2 MREs, water, large folding knife, 2 BIC lighters, flashlight, 3 extra pistol mags, and 3 AR Mags), IF, it's still there, functional, and hasn't been broken into when I get to it . Then assessing the situation from home (Continue with a well armed & supplied E&E to a fall back position, or well armed and stocked Home DIP (Die in place)/Hunker Down, if it's still standing, if it hasn't been looted).


Exactly, SHTF has so many definitions that I just decided to have fun with the question.

seb5
04-12-09, 22:50
Long term survival is a different animal than enough to get through the immediate situation. Over the years I've became very satisfied with my load out. My load out has nothing to do with what I have as a total in mags, ammo, or anything else.

Whether it was running convoys in Iraq, making entry for the Sheriffs office, or my chest rig hanging in my closet at home. I've felt pretty good with 1 in the rifle and 3 spares, and the same for my sidearm on my person. Add a flashlight and IFAK and I'm good to go. Of course there are backups whether in the HMMV, my patrol unit, or the closet. Short of an all out movie type free for all I can't imagine me needing more than that. I'll either be alive with plenty or dead and it not mattering if it came to that.

Terry
04-19-09, 11:44
SHTF can be different for eveyone, to a point.
Here, it could be as simple as a blizzard, maybe a flood.
In that case, I would probably take as little as needed to survive, short term, assuming I had to leave.
In a case like that, I am thinking I would have time to load my truck with my family, valuables and gear, not really an emergency type bug out.
The other, nation wide SHTF scenario I see is a nuke going off in NY, DC, LA, etc, etc.
In that case, more urgency would be required I would think.
Depending on where I was, and a myriad of other things, I am trying to rondeveau(sp), with family, maybe like minded people, maybe not, and attempting to get to a prearranged "safe haven".
I want to get as far away from urban America as possible, as fast as possible.
So depending on type of SHTF, I am taking 5 30 AR mags, 3 G17 mags, always, more if possible.
I, in know way, overestimate my abilities.
Having said that, I hope my family is together, i can use my truck, and be to a safe haven b4 it really hits people life as we know it will never be the same.
If not, I try to have my wife and children as prepared as possible for a worst case scenario, and pray.
Terry.

SoulStealer
04-24-09, 14:13
+1 to whats already been said.

First things first..you can never have to many mags.

What really matters is what kind of SHTF your dealing with.

I have different lines set up for different senarios. The only thing Im missing now is some sort of First Responder Bag. Which I will fix as soon as I find one that I like. I have set ups from 2 mags to 8 mags, again depending on what Im dealing with.

airwayguru
04-28-09, 20:00
I carry 3 mags for my .40XD, 2 mags for the M4, and 30 rounds for the 12g. I feel that is enough ammo for any situation that I come up to.

Iraqgunz
04-29-09, 10:46
As soon as I convert one of my carbines to a belt fed and put a hopper can in the back of the Suburban I'll let you know. We used to outfit our F350's over here with a minimum of 30 mags per vehicle in addition to the basic load we carried. Each M249 had 1200 rds.

Back home I stick a little goody bag in the trunk with extra stuff just in case :D. Right now I have 3 complete operational AR's and 2 that I will slap together when I get back at the end of the year. My goal is then to have 2 complete combat load outs of mags per weapon which means 20 mags per weapon.

rob_s
04-29-09, 11:05
One of the reasons I've been trying to adapt to the Redimag is because I think it makes the carrying of a second magazine easier and less of a process.

The problem with this thread is that we're all open to inerpretation as to what was meant by "SHTF" (a term, BTW, that I grow ever increasingly tired of due to this ambiguity).

The_War_Wagon
04-29-09, 15:48
The problem with this thread is that we're all open to inerpretation as to what was meant by "SHTF" (a term, BTW, that I grow ever increasingly tired of due to this ambiguity).

As Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said in the 1920's regarding pornography (free speech case), I think we can apply to the term, "SHTF."

"I may not be able to DEFINE it, but I know it when I see it!"

We'll KNOW it ("SHTF") when we get there (or it gets to US!)! :eek:

Failure2Stop
04-29-09, 16:41
As Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said in the 1920's regarding pornography (free speech case), I think we can apply to the term, "SHTF."

"I may not be able to DEFINE it, but I know it when I see it!"

We'll KNOW it ("SHTF") when we get there (or it gets to US!)! :eek:

I think I agree with rob here.
It's a matter of defining the parameters, especially when dealing with an issue of logistics.
How many mags do you need to pump 5 rounds into a life-threatening B&E?
Probably a lot less than if you find yourself forced to survive without any kind of law and order over several months while traveling a couple of hundred miles.
While it is pretty easy to determine when things go south, it is very hard to say in advance how they will go down or exactly how big of a fan the shit is actually hitting.

Saginaw79
04-29-09, 17:23
as many as you can get

Ive done it two ways-

1. 'Combat load' times 2 so if you carry 6 you need 12

2. 30 per rifle, which is my current standard

gyp_c2
05-30-09, 07:00
two pounds of medical gear is worth a hell of a lot more than 60 more bullets
...well said...http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif
...unless yer' out of bullets...

FMF_Doc
06-19-09, 14:19
I carry 6 30rd mags on my kit with an additional 7 mags in my pack.

I also maintain a stockpile of Lake City 855, and always look to get more of it, even though my career has been medical I always held to the concept of the best preventive medicine as being superior firepower.

Mr.Goodtimes
06-19-09, 19:31
i think six is a good number to have ready, and more would be good in a bag for back up. id even be comfortable with three extra mags ready, and then more in a bag. i think id be pretty tough to burn through four mags.

Scottso
06-19-09, 20:15
always felt 10 per rifle, so 2 AR's 20 mags, 2 M1A's 20 mags. Feel that's sufficient, whats more important is Ammo to put in them!

Thomas M-4
06-19-09, 20:23
I have 11 usgi Magazines 30rds and 5 p-mags for one carbine for now plan to pick up more p-mags and GI mags and also a couple of more rifles in the future;)

RogerinTPA
06-22-09, 21:05
The only thing Im missing now is some sort of First Responder Bag.

That reminds me to get one First Aid/Trauma kit for my other car's BOB and two for the house.

152dbs
07-01-09, 23:46
got about 9 mags for the .45s, about (5) 10 rnd and (5) 5 rnd saiga 12 mags, (30) 30 rd AR mags, and about 8 saiga 308 mags....most are in either a vest or range bag.

want more...

SoDak
08-15-09, 00:57
I think that many people grossly overestimate their individual combat prowess, weight-bearing ability and general fieldcraft. Now, when it comes to this type of scenario my opinon is about as weighty as a butterfly fart, but think about this logically.

Priority should be placed on having a bunch of friends and stuff needed for basic survival. Two or three mags between the gun and the user is more than likely more than you will be able to live through. The more mags you carry the heavier you are, the heavier you are the slower you move, the slower you move. . . I think it is pretty obvious where I am going with this. Three mags equals 84 to 91 shots. With a 1 to 10 stop/fail ratio that means that you can drop 9 bad guys. 9 to 1 odds is bad. Really, really bad. As in, expect to use a few tourniquets and a few ACSs kind of bad. Assuming that the 9 BGs only have 1 mag each in their G17s, and have a 1 to 51 hit/miss ratio, you are looking at taking 3 bullet wounds. Assuming that you aren't planning on preemptive strikes, the BGs will have the element of suprise when they strike, and probably a coordinated plan.

Given that situation, two pounds of medical gear is worth a hell of a lot more than 60 more bullets that you won't live to fire. What about water? Food? Tools?
If you don't have e few people to watch your back while you sleep it doesn't matter how much ammo you are carting around. There is a very good reason that professional trained soldiers operate in teams, but their load is generally geared toward sustained combat. All items come with a weight and bulk penalty, and with ammo in that situation you can quickly reach the point of diminishing return.

At least that's my thought on the matter.

Thanks for the very informative post. It has helped me with my own questions about carrying mags. I got a couple of those surplus FLC vests and 10 double mag pouches(they were 5 for $15, hence why I bought a bunch) and have been trying to decide on how many mags I need. I initally went with 8 mags, but now I think I'll scale it back to 4 and look towards purchasing other useful gear to put on the vest. Besides with my current rifle skill(I still need to take a rifle class:o) if I can make it through 4 mags, I must be the luckiest guy alive, or be facing the dumbest bad guys ever. Plus this way I can spread out my mag supply to my other vest and LBEs for other members of my family to use. Of course this is assuming there is a total breakdown and these things become necesary. I really need to find a way to carry just a couple extra mags and get a good ccw gun for the more likely shtf scenarios, like a home invasion for example.

Mr.Goodtimes
08-15-09, 11:18
i've set up my basic kit as a light, quick response, short range kit. I'm in better than average shape, id say probably in better shape then 98% of the people i see walking around on the street, in walmart etc... Probably in the top 10% of Americans overall. I'm not an olympic athlete, but, i can move.

I'm going to let the situation at hand decide decide what I carry. For the most part, its going to be 5 Rifle mags (1 in the gun, 4 in the vest) and 4 Pistol mags (1 in the gun, 3 in the vest) With a knife and some spare batteries.

The kit i carry for ambushing a gang of thugs on their way to loot my neighborhood is going to be different from the kit i carry when traveling in a vehicle over long distance from point A to point B, and different than the kit I'd carry to go on a long range patrol. Whats most important to me is not getting shot. I'll be straight up honest, if i get in a firefight and things aren't looking well for me, im going to get the hell out of dodge, me being dead doesn't do me any good, I want to be able to run, and run really damn fast to safety. With 8 Rifle mags in my vest, I can still move very quickly, especially in short sprints. With 4 mags in my vest, i hardly notice it there. In any case, though, I dont want to be grabbing light magazines, because no matter how fast you can run, you cant run faster then a bullet.

I want enough ammo though, to counter ambush. I think 150 rds of ammo is realistically, plenty of ammo.

I also dont overestimate my own combat prowess, I would much rather be in a well trained group then by my self. I'd also rather be by my self then with a group of goobers.

One man, with a good rifle, some training, an advantageous position and the element of surprise can really do some hurt on say 5-10 people caught off guard.

PA PATRIOT
08-15-09, 11:50
http://www.blackhawk.com//CatalogImages/18-856-IMG1.jpeg

This is Blackhawks Patrol Bandoleer which holds four 30rd AR magazines and two Pistol magazines. It sells for under $35.00 and is decently built, just throw it over the shoulder and use the two snap keeper belt loops to secure it to your belt. (Not the "D" rings shown the keepers are on the back which are not shown).

http://www.blackhawk.com//CatalogImages/18-855-IMG1.jpeg

This may work well for home defense as it is smaller holding two 30rd AR Magazines and two Pistol Magazines and is also made by BlackHawk costing under $30.00.

Outlander Systems
08-15-09, 11:59
Phila PD's got the right idea.

If you're hoofing it alone, and you need more than 4+1, you're done.

It's all dependent upon the circumstances.

You can't have too many, as some will disappear through attrition; loss, failure, etc.

But if you're by yourself, you're better off being evasive.

Sneaky > Rambozo

rob_s
08-15-09, 12:28
I tried the Eagle version of the patrol bandoleer, and greatly prefer the small Sneaky Bag.

ST911
08-15-09, 12:45
I really need to find a way to carry just a couple extra mags and get a good ccw gun for the more likely shtf scenarios, like a home invasion for example.

Eagle Patrol Bandoleer, issued, used, and recommended. Here:
http://www.eagleindustries.com/product.php?productid=132&cat=94&page=1

At or about the same price point as the Blackhawk, but high quality.


I tried the Eagle version of the patrol bandoleer, and greatly prefer the small Sneaky Bag.

The Sneaky Bags are GTG. Recommended.

As another option, Sodak, you might also look at one of the various small multi-purpose shoulder bags. The Tactical Tailor Crossfire pack is excellent.

http://www.tacticaltailor.com/crossfireconcealedcarrybag.aspx

There are others as well.

Mr.Goodtimes
08-15-09, 12:45
Phila PD's got the right idea.

If you're hoofing it alone, and you need more than 4+1, you're done.

It's all dependent upon the circumstances.

You can't have too many, as some will disappear through attrition; loss, failure, etc.

But if you're by yourself, you're better off being evasive.

Sneaky > Rambozo

+1, thats pretty much what i was trying to get at in all the crap i posted above.

PA PATRIOT
08-15-09, 20:33
Eagle Patrol Bandoleer, issued, used, and recommended. Here:
http://www.eagleindustries.com/product.php?productid=132&cat=94&page=1

At or about the same price point as the Blackhawk, but high quality.

The Sneaky Bags are GTG. Recommended.

As another option, Sodak, you might also look at one of the various small multi-purpose shoulder bags. The Tactical Tailor Crossfire pack is excellent.

http://www.tacticaltailor.com/crossfireconcealedcarrybag.aspx

There are others as well.

I gave the Eagle version of the Patrol Bandoleer a try during a five day NRA Tactical Shooting Instructors course. I liked it but found one draw back that it only offered a single button belt loop on the center rear which allowed the Bandoleer to slide side to side and bounce a bit. The BlackHawk with its double (One at each end) button belt loops held the bag in place better. I also liked that the total weight of the Bandoleer was distributed over three contact points which made wear more comfortable.

ST911
08-15-09, 21:02
I give the Eagle version of the Patrol Bandoleer a try during a five day NRA Tactical Shooting Instructors course. I liked it but found one draw back that it only offered a single button belt loop on the center rear which allowed the Bandoleer to slide side to side and bounce a bit. The BlackHawk with its double (One at each end) button belt loops held the bag in place better. I also liked that the total weight of the Bandoleer was distributed over three contact points which made wear more comfortable.

I don't care for the belt attachment of the Eagle PB either. It is quirkier to utilize than it should be.

To work around its shortcomings, I've put a snap link through it that I can attach to the keepers on my duty belt. Alternatively, I've also taken a loop of shock cord and attached it to the loop on the PB. When I throw on the PB, I stretch the shock cord and loop it around whatever piece of gear its near on my duty or CCW rig. It works.

All that being said, I haven't found much need to attach the PB to a belt at all.

I also use another mag bandoleer from Eagle that I like. It's a six-mag unit (2 sided, 3 per side), with two D-rings in the bottom corners as on the Blackhawk. It lacks pistol mags, but that's not a big deal. For an active shooter role, one can load the front with rifle mags, and the backside with support items that fit. I don't see it in the catalog anymore, but I'd like to order more in khaki or black. Mine is OD.

rob_s
08-15-09, 22:00
I wanted the Eagle bag to have two loops instead of one as well. What I really wanted was two MOLLE straps, one at each end but with the snap facing up instead of down, so that I could use the PB as a mag carrier on a rifle case and as an ammo carrier on my person if I needed to.

I found the pouches to be too tight to withdraw the magazines without the belt loop attached, but the single belt loop to be unacceptable.

(I think I sold mine to someone here though, so maybe I should shut up now. :cool:)

SoDak
08-15-09, 23:20
I don't care for the belt attachment of the Eagle PB either. It is quirkier to utilize than it should be.

To work around its shortcomings, I've put a snap link through it that I can attach to the keepers on my duty belt. Alternatively, I've also taken a loop of shock cord and attached it to the loop on the PB. When I throw on the PB, I stretch the shock cord and loop it around whatever piece of gear its near on my duty or CCW rig. It works.

All that being said, I haven't found much need to attach the PB to a belt at all.

I also use another mag bandoleer from Eagle that I like. It's a six-mag unit (2 sided, 3 per side), with two D-rings in the bottom corners as on the Blackhawk. It lacks pistol mags, but that's not a big deal. For an active shooter role, one can load the front with rifle mags, and the backside with support items that fit. I don't see it in the catalog anymore, but I'd like to order more in khaki or black. Mine is OD.


That's what has held me back on the patrol bandoleer. I like the idea, but I really wish it had at least 2 secure belt loops. In the meantime, I have a double mag pouch I have zip tied and paracorded to an ALICE belt. It seems to work well enough, although I prefer not to have such a jury rigged piece of equipment. I've given thought to upgrading the system with either a molle belt or use mag pouches made for malice clips, but I'd like to play with the setup I have some more.

PA PATRIOT
08-16-09, 01:03
I have looked around and not found many dedicated "Stand alone" compact Bandoleers which are quick donning, and easily secured. The Eagle is solid built but lacks securing, the Blackhawk locks down decently with the two button keepers and I just swapped out the solid "D" rings with ones that have the spring loaded arms which will slip right under and around my duty belt. This "D" ring change offered much better stability so far. My only problem with Blackhawk is that its construction is lighter then the Eagle version but still suitable for what I need it too do.

Please list links to stuff you guys currently use, maybe there is something better out there I have not seen yet.

rob_s
08-16-09, 07:32
Here's my review (http://tacticalyellowvisor.net/8301/82279.html) of the One Source Tactical Mini Sneaky Bag. I need to update it as I've made some user-level modifications that I think help the overall function.

Not really what you're asking for as you seem to want an even more basic system and obviously aren't as concerned about the low profile aspect.

PA PATRIOT
08-16-09, 18:36
A padded and curved shoulder strap would make a big difference in load bearing on the shoulder. I have seen this curved strap on other products and maybe I can modify my patrol bandoleer with one.

ST911
08-16-09, 18:44
A padded and curved shoulder strap would make a big difference in load bearing on the shoulder. I have seen this curved strap on other products and maybe I can modify my patrol bandoleer with one.

Did you really find weight to be an issue? I've worn my 2, 4, and 6-pack bandoleers working and training and haven't run into that. On a loaded Sneaky, Crossfire, or something like that, it can be.

Does no harm, I suppose...

rob_s
08-16-09, 18:46
I don't think it's as much about load as it is position. A properly curved strap will keep the strap from jabbing into your neck. Which is an issue I had with the Eagle as well as continue to have with the mini Sneaky. I just wish the curved strap wasn't $27. Although I'm ordering one right now.

ST911
08-16-09, 18:54
I don't think it's as much about load as it is position. A properly curved strap will keep the strap from jabbing into your neck. Which is an issue I had with the Eagle as well as continue to have with the mini Sneaky. I just wish the curved strap wasn't $27. Although I'm ordering one right now.

I suspect body type weighs in too. No-necks with a slope from their jaw to their shoulder will have different needs that those with right angles.

Worthy of contemplation.

PA PATRIOT
08-16-09, 19:10
Did you really find weight to be an issue? I've worn my 2, 4, and 6-pack bandoleers working and training and haven't run into that. On a loaded Sneaky, Crossfire, or something like that, it can be.

Does no harm, I suppose...

I found as I moved and bounced around the strap of the patrol bandoleer would relocate up and down my shoulder. Weight fully loaded (Four 30rd P-Mags and two Glock-17 Mags) was not a issue unless I was on a dead run and bandoleer bounce was heavy on that thin shoulder strap. Wider and curved will be an improvement to keep the strap in its proper place.

PA PATRIOT
08-16-09, 19:10
I don't think it's as much about load as it is position. A properly curved strap will keep the strap from jabbing into your neck. Which is an issue I had with the Eagle as well as continue to have with the mini Sneaky. I just wish the curved strap wasn't $27. Although I'm ordering one right now.

Link to your curved strap please.

drsal
08-16-09, 19:42
As rharris stated 'shtf' can occur here in So Fla 2-4x/year depending on the extent and severity of hurricane season;and when it does occur it doesn't last for more than 2 weeks anyway. I could stay in my home for 4-5 months without having to leave. To me its more of an inconvienance than a disaster. I pack a 'get home' back pack, with some basic supplies in case I get stuck in transit and have to stay/sleep in my car for about 2-3 days if stuck on alligator alley for example. Worse case scenario, leave the bag and walk home, 5-6 hr for a 24 mile walk from my furthest work location. Always carry my glock 17 and three spare mags in the car too, good to have, but hope they would not be needed, as I am just walking home :rolleyes: !
Also in agreement with one poster who said they would 'hunker in' as the thought of 'bugging' out and being a refugee is not appealing, except of course in the event of massive over the roof flooding!

goodoleboy
08-16-09, 19:56
hey yall, whats a good number of mags to have on oneself in the case of a shtf scenario? my current setup has four, im kinda thinkin about more like eight or twelve though.

Our standard load-out was 7, however, you can never have too many. Tis always better to have more than you need than tis to run out.

RogerinTPA
08-16-09, 21:35
As rharris stated 'shtf' can occur here in So Fla 2-4x/year depending on the extent and severity of hurricane season;and when it does occur it doesn't last for more than 2 weeks anyway. I could stay in my home for 4-5 months without having to leave. To me its more of an inconvienance than a disaster. I pack a 'get home' back pack, with some basic supplies in case I get stuck in transit and have to stay/sleep in my car for about 2-3 days if stuck on alligator alley for example. Worse case scenario, leave the bag and walk home, 5-6 hr for a 24 mile walk from my furthest work location. Always carry my glock 17 and three spare mags in the car too, good to have, but hope they would not be needed, as I am just walking home :rolleyes: !
Also in agreement with one poster who said they would 'hunker in' as the thought of 'bugging' out and being a refugee is not appealing, except of course in the event of massive over the roof flooding!

How's that mini mansion fortress you got working out for you Doc?:p

drsal
08-16-09, 21:41
Pretty secure my friend! And you are welcome to stay at any time !

rob_s
08-17-09, 05:25
Also in agreement with one poster who said they would 'hunker in' as the thought of 'bugging' out and being a refugee is not appealing, except of course in the event of massive over the roof flooding!

I've been evacuated twice and chosen to leave once. All three times were some of the best times I've ever had and were like vacations. Once I went to the keys (yeah, evac'd from a hurricane to an isolated island), once I went and stayed with friends on the west coast (right into the path of the storm) and once I went to Philly. :D

rob_s
08-17-09, 05:57
Link to your curved strap please.

http://www.onesourcetactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1213

drsal
08-17-09, 10:50
I've been evacuated twice and chosen to leave once. All three times were some of the best times I've ever had and were like vacations. Once I went to the keys (yeah, evac'd from a hurricane to an isolated island), once I went and stayed with friends on the west coast (right into the path of the storm) and once I went to Philly. :D


Geez. would have preferred to ride out the hurricane than go to philly:p would have been safer in miami

ra2bach
08-17-09, 21:53
I carry 3 mags for my .40XD, 2 mags for the M4, and 30 rounds for the 12g. I feel that is enough ammo for any situation that I come up to.
and you're going to carry all three firearms?

PA PATRIOT
08-17-09, 23:50
I've been evacuated twice and chosen to leave once. All three times were some of the best times I've ever had and were like vacations. Once I went to the keys (yeah, evac'd from a hurricane to an isolated island), once I went and stayed with friends on the west coast (right into the path of the storm) and once I went to Philly. :D

Hay!

Philly is not that bad.

If you can look past the 425+ Homicides, 3500 shot each year then Philly is a happening town.

Did I mention we have Cheese Steaks and soft pretzels?

MSP "Sarge"
08-18-09, 01:26
Something I was wondering is how long can a magazine remain loaded before it needs to be rebuilt? Wondering about the spring. Was always taught to rotate my mags. What do ya think? Anyone use a magazine that had been loaded for say 2 years or more?

6933
08-18-09, 12:01
I think the Army is no longer recommending storing mags long term loaded. Seem to remember a recent Army publication stating this. I believe Quib posted it. Hopefully he'll read this and re-post.

PA PATRIOT
08-18-09, 13:16
I think if your Magazines have C/S springs then you should be good to go, I know there are a lot of Philly Cops who never fire their Glocks but once a year at Qualification time. Thats the only time were the magazine is unloaded once, then reloaded and fired 155 times during two Qualification courses and a reactive plate course and I have never seen a magazine fail. My own Glock Magazines are put thur heavy use and before I knew any better I never changed out the springs. From what I have heard its not the compression of the spring that damages it but the cycling of the spring from compression to decompression that wears them out.

BLACK LION
08-18-09, 13:31
Lots of good points here.

Less rigs = less mags... I found myself snapping out of "impractical" mode a while ago and consolidating my inventory to what I can carry on my person and in the car.
I do fancy the 1000 rounds for each rig... but 500 in the reserves and then whatever I have on hand immediately to shoot is more practical... Especially when dealing with a .50.... Which is one of the reasons I went with an AR upper version rather than an entire rig. 100 rounds is pretty "weighty" so I found a happy medium since 1000 round is phuckin heavy...
not to mention way too expensive...

Also depending where you live, there are capacity restrictions which have to be considered if you plan to stay within those laws once the shtf.. rebuild kits definately play a major role here...

Mr.Goodtimes
08-18-09, 14:01
Lots of good points here.

Less rigs = less mags... I found myself snapping out of "impractical" mode a while ago and consolidating my inventory to what I can carry on my person and in the car.
I do fancy the 1000 rounds for each rig... but 500 in the reserves and then whatever I have on hand immediately to shoot is more practical... Especially when dealing with a .50.... Which is one of the reasons I went with an AR upper version rather than an entire rig. 100 rounds is pretty "weighty" so I found a happy medium since 1000 round is phuckin heavy...
not to mention way too expensive...

Also depending where you live, there are capacity restrictions which have to be considered if you plan to stay within those laws once the shtf.. rebuild kits definately play a major role here...

if i lived in a ban state, and the shit really, truely hit the fan... one of the first laws id throw aside would be that BS magazine limit. I'm not gonna be shootin it out with thugs with my 10rd mags and bullet button. **** that.

RogerinTPA
08-18-09, 16:50
Something I was wondering is how long can a magazine remain loaded before it needs to be rebuilt? Wondering about the spring. Was always taught to rotate my mags. What do ya think? Anyone use a magazine that had been loaded for say 2 years or more?

I used 4 mags (2 Pmags/2 D&H Alum mags) that were stored a little over 2 years at the range a few weeks ago. They both functioned like they were supposed to, with no deficiencies in the feed lips or body of the mags. I just loaded up a bunch of mags and stored them in an ammo can, until I came across them 2 years later and was curious if they would function. They were GTG.

BLACK LION
08-18-09, 18:54
if i lived in a ban state, and the shit really, truely hit the fan... one of the first laws id throw aside would be that BS magazine limit. I'm not gonna be shootin it out with thugs with my 10rd mags and bullet button. **** that.

I agree 100%...

BLACK LION
08-18-09, 18:56
I used 4 mags (2 Pmags/2 D&H Alum mags) that were stored a little over 2 years at the range a few weeks ago. They both functioned like they were supposed to, with no deficiencies in the feed lips or body of the mags. I just loaded up a bunch of mags and stored them in an ammo can, until I came across them 2 years later and was curious if they would function. They were GTG.

Good to know....

MSP "Sarge"
08-19-09, 00:22
Yea it makes since. My Glock mags sit on my duty rig and get used a few times a year. I would suspect that it doesn't hurt them too much. Thanks for the info!

Jaddra
09-03-09, 09:26
In my personal opinion and to be realistic you should carry around 10-13 M4 mags on you (or as the army nowadays 12+1 on the gun=390 rounds), and not more than 3 handgun mags. You should definitely have stored your spare ammo somewhere (bug out vehicle its a plus), but not with you and again of course it all depends on the situation/disaster...

Mac5.56
09-03-09, 11:40
In my personal opinion and to be realistic you should carry around 10-13 M4 mags on you (or as the army nowadays 12+1 on the gun=390 rounds), and not more than 3 handgun mags. You should definitely have stored your spare ammo somewhere (bug out vehicle its a plus), but not with you and again of course it all depends on the situation/disaster...

Check out this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=36968. There is a lot of discussion about your position in it. While I realize that soldiers do this, my question for you is are you capable of adding 13 + 8 approx (gun) pounds to your kit then lugging it around with you in a high stress situation?

Jaddra
09-03-09, 12:13
Check out this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=36968. There is a lot of discussion about your position in it. While I realize that soldiers do this, my question for you is are you capable of adding 13 + 8 approx (gun) pounds to your kit then lugging it around with you in a high stress situation?

Good point dmcmanus and I will agree that the carry load may be heavy for untrained person. The ammo load should be determined by the situation/the objective and the person - a well trained soldier/ex-solder/etc may be fine getting all the ammo (13+ mags) but an ordinary person will be able to get mat be only half of that (6+1). On a short recon ops you don't really need all that heavy load, but on a long moving to a new EP point (no BOV available) the load will definitely change. Personally I will feel better knowing I have few extra mags, but that is just me :p

P.S. Thank you rob s

rob_s
09-03-09, 12:19
In my personal opinion and to be realistic you should carry around 10-13 M4 mags on you (or as the army nowadays 12+1 on the gun=390 rounds), and not more than 3 handgun mags. You should definitely have stored your spare ammo somewhere (bug out vehicle its a plus), but not with you and again of course it all depends on the situation/disaster...

I think you are nuts. :p

Jake0331
09-05-09, 12:52
I do 9+1 inserted and 4+1 for the secondary. It isn't bad. I used to carry only 8+1, but I've since ditched the carrier/chest rig combo in favor of a DBT plate carrier and could throw an extra mag on - why not? I've got a dude out here who makes my pouches for me; Scott at SKT Industries. I can see why that many mags wouldn't work for folks, though. If I were to load up more than that on my person, I'd throw on the old H-harness. Then I'd slip an Ace of Spades in my cat-eyes and switch on some Jimi.

Someone mentioned earlier carrying fewer magazines and a lighter load for reconnaissance. Absolutely. I'd grab a small chest rig in that case, maybe 4+1 that's capable of carrying small binos, GPS, and other mission-related gear that I don't have anywhere else on my body. FAK is on the belt.

In a true SHTF scenario, I'd never limit my mag capacity to 4 if I were to expect the unexpected. Rounds go quick when you need them.

PA PATRIOT
09-05-09, 19:26
I was able to ask a family member who has done two tours in the sand box and is now working on his second tour in the hills. I ask what his combat load out was and if he ever ran down to his last magazine during a fire fight. He replied that most killed in his unit during operations were by IED's and not fire fights in both locations, That said he has been in several major missions were he fired at enemy combatants in extended fire fights. His mission load out on short humps is eight and one, on longer humps many strip down the weight losing two magazines, the sidearm & ammo and a grenade. They never remove body armor/plates, water, med kit or com. In all his combat missions he stated that he never fired more then four magazines in any one of them. Asking his opinion on state side ammo carry during a SHTF event he answered with a question of his own. How many Police Officers who were armed with AR's during a fire fight has every made it Thur their primary magazine. Thinking back over the past 20 years of my LEO career I have never heard of a PPD swat officer ever getting past a few rounds with a AR. I don't think the LA bank shootout had swat officers reloading their AR's during the finial take down. I'M sure some were a LEO had to expend more then one magazine from a AR but I would think it is not common place to do so. I'M really starting to think that four and one maybe a good load out for local operations during a SHTF movement and using the weight savings for a extra med kit, compact binoculars and a food bar. When pressed for a magazine count for CONUS work his reply was three or four.

Outlander Systems
09-05-09, 19:56
I was able to ask a family member who has done two tours in the sand box and is now working on his second tour in the hills. I ask what his combat load out was and if he ever ran down to his last magazine during a fire fight. He replied that most killed in his unit during operations were by IED's and not fire fights in both locations, That said he has been in several major missions were he fired at enemy combatants in extended fire fights. His mission load out on short humps is eight and one, on longer humps many strip down the weight losing two magazines, the sidearm & ammo and a grenade. They never remove body armor/plates, water, med kit or com. In all his combat missions he stated that he never fired more then four magazines in any one of them. Asking his opinion on state side ammo carry during a SHTF event he answered with a question of his own. How many Police Officers who were armed with AR's during a fire fight has every made it Thur their primary magazine. Thinking back over the past 20 years of my LEO career I have never heard of a PPD swat officer ever getting past a few rounds with a AR. I don't think the LA bank shootout had swat officers reloading their AR's during the finial take down. I'M sure some were a LEO had to expend more then one magazine from a AR but I would think it is not common place to do so. I'M really starting to think that four and one maybe a good load out for local operations during a SHTF movement and using the weight savings for a extra med kit, compact binoculars and a food bar. When pressed for a magazine count for CONUS work his reply was three or four.

Prudent, indeed.

3+1 seems like the optimal setup. If you need more than that, you are most likely getting yourself into more trouble than you should have.

1) Stay off of roads
2) Less Rambo, more MacGuyver
3) 30 rounds of well-aimed shots are a lot; 120 is a DAMNED lot. Like wheel-guns, if you live long enough to fire 120 shots at a bad-guy, and don't hit him; throw it in the river and run.

I believe in the possibility of some liquid-defecation to hit the fan, but I can't see any plausible scenario where a loadout of more the 3+1 mags for primary would be needed; short of a civil war, or armed insurrection against a tyrannic government.

Hmmm, that last statement makes me like the 8+1 idea better. ;)

PACKINHEAT
09-14-09, 03:55
A lot of well made points here, I guess I am a nut

Bug out-

Full Ciras with 8 mags, camelback, extensive first aid pouch, PVS 14 and lots of extra Batts. 2 extra mags for the .45 (XD) and one in the beast.

Extra food in a backpack.

If I have learned anything during my Gov sponsered "world tours" it is this- You can survive weeks without substanial food, days without water, but not 10 minutes without air, ammo or the ability to control bleeding......


Guess I'm nuts, theres another 10+ mags in the truck along with fuel and other Toys :p

Beat Trash
09-14-09, 08:11
A lot of well made points here, I guess I am a nut

Guess I'm nuts, theres another 10+ mags in the truck along with fuel and other Toys :p

If you are, then you have company.

If forced to bug out, I also have a box that will contain extra magazines. These are in additional to the ones I have on my person.

I think one of the big secrets to Preparation and Planning is to do just what those words mean. Think it out ahead. Test what you have come up with to see if it is feasible, then put it together.

Having a BOB, determining how many mags for a SHTF event, having a box of extra mags and ammo for the truck, to bug out in, is all good. But please ensure you take that thought and put it into action. During a SHTF event is a bad time to be running around, while under a bit of stress, trying to round everything up.

My magazine carriers are on a shelf in the safe next to the two AR's that would go. I have two 50 cal cans each containing 6 loaded AR mags, 4 120rd bandoleers of 5.56mm, and 200 rds of 9mm JHP. These cans are labeled on the outside "SHTF", and they NEVER have anything sitting on top of them, always sit in front of all the other ammo cans.

"Grab and get" does not mean, grab, hunt around for the missing stuff, forget something, then leave.

jtb0311
09-15-09, 10:14
I was able to ask a family member who has done two tours in the sand box and is now working on his second tour in the hills. I ask what his combat load out was and if he ever ran down to his last magazine during a fire fight. He replied that most killed in his unit during operations were by IED's and not fire fights in both locations, That said he has been in several major missions were he fired at enemy combatants in extended fire fights. His mission load out on short humps is eight and one, on longer humps many strip down the weight losing two magazines, the sidearm & ammo and a grenade. They never remove body armor/plates, water, med kit or com. In all his combat missions he stated that he never fired more then four magazines in any one of them. Asking his opinion on state side ammo carry during a SHTF event he answered with a question of his own. How many Police Officers who were armed with AR's during a fire fight has every made it Thur their primary magazine. Thinking back over the past 20 years of my LEO career I have never heard of a PPD swat officer ever getting past a few rounds with a AR. I don't think the LA bank shootout had swat officers reloading their AR's during the finial take down. I'M sure some were a LEO had to expend more then one magazine from a AR but I would think it is not common place to do so. I'M really starting to think that four and one maybe a good load out for local operations during a SHTF movement and using the weight savings for a extra med kit, compact binoculars and a food bar. When pressed for a magazine count for CONUS work his reply was three or four.

I agree. I work in A'Stan as a contractor and am always surprised when I see guys at home who wear more gear to a course than I do over here. I think there's fantasy involved for some when it comes to fitness, usually seen in threads where self described big guys (they always used to play football... :p), usually over 300 pounds, want to know where they can find kit that will both fit them and let them carry 12 or more magazines. What if you're too heavy to E&E to the end of the block?

Over here, I have a rig set up to carry 6 magazines. If I feel I need more than that, we have plenty of extras. I keep mine in a stripper clip bandoleer, so if I need more I can throw it around my neck and go.

perna
09-15-09, 12:17
Comparing soldiers in a war situation with what would be considered a SHTF situation in the US is like comparing sand to apples.

What is the situation that you are preparing for that you need 360+ rounds, in mags on your person and plenty of backup ammo?
Where are you planning on going in a total failure of society?
If there is some kind of chemical/bio attack, what makes you think driving from where you are is going to help?

Comparing a solider load, where they are either on the OFFENSIVE, or defensive looking for armed combatants is far from someone trying to flee in basically an evacuation situation.

jtb0311
09-15-09, 12:24
Comparing soldiers in a war situation with what would be considered a SHTF situation in the US is like comparing sand to apples.

What is the situation that you are preparing for that you need 360+ rounds, in mags on your person and plenty of backup ammo?
Where are you planning on going in a total failure of society?
If there is some kind of chemical/bio attack, what makes you think driving from where you are is going to help?

Comparing a solider load, where they are either on the OFFENSIVE, or defensive looking for armed combatants is far from someone trying to flee in basically an evacuation situation.

My point exactly. A lot of guys at home plan for an unrealistic Red Dawn fantasy (RIP Swayze).

PA PATRIOT
09-15-09, 13:13
I have decided on the following magazine carrier due to its small profile, quick donning and cost. While its has slightly lighter construction and weight then its Eagle brand counter part its still constructed well enough to take a beating and continue to serve. I also like its dual belt snaps and I have replaced the little fixed "D" rings with larger spring arm versions which secure better around the duty belt. Since its low cost ($31.99) allowed me to buy several I can place them in all the family vehicles, BUG out locations and inside the home. They fit four 30rd P-Mag's perfectly and any Hi-Cap pistol magazines. I personally use the pistol pouches for a Stream light T-2 and a small 6X monocular. From all the information I have been able to gather from conversions with active combat Marines, my own military and L/E career and from the professionals on this site I have settled on a four and one load out. Figuring I will also be humping my Rifle, Soft and hard plate armor, Ballistic Helmet, med kit, water and com and most likely a sidearm I'M reaching the practical limits on weight. Once every week both me and the wife carry are total battle load for a walk along the railroad tracks 7.5 miles up and 7.5 back using a weighted back pack (Lead Shot Bags used for ballast) and wrist weights which equal a loaded M-4. Since my daily work load (Loaded Duty Belt, Soft Armor with IMPACT inserts and Com) reaches 65% of my battle gear its a bit easier for me to hump the extra load on the weekend. The Wife runs eight miles a day with ankle and wrist weights only taking the weekends off and I find she will start to huff and puff on the last leg of are return trip from the tracks. The greatest error will all will make is to over estimate are abilities to hump gear for a extended period of time which can place one in jeopardy if your legs give out in a bad location. Test yourself and adjust your gear to the weight you can actually hump and not what you hope to be able to do. Right now humping the weight is a good form of conditioning for me and the wife, more to stay in shape then any survival training. But its cross over potential could be a live saver if the Excrement ever did hit the fan.

http://www.blackhawk.com//CatalogImages/18-856-IMG1.jpeg

crusader377
09-15-09, 13:19
Comparing soldiers in a war situation with what would be considered a SHTF situation in the US is like comparing sand to apples.

What is the situation that you are preparing for that you need 360+ rounds, in mags on your person and plenty of backup ammo?

Comparing a solider load, where they are either on the OFFENSIVE, or defensive looking for armed combatants is far from someone trying to flee in basically an evacuation situation.

Agree 100%, I think 4 or 5 magazines or your person is more than enough for any SHTF situation.

Beat Trash
09-16-09, 07:47
Phila PD,

I have settled on the two mag version for duty usage. I have found the quality vs. the cost was sufficient for my intended purpose.

I am planning on obtaining the four mag versions for each of the "extra" AR's I have. I feel these make great "emergency" magazine carriers.

The biggest downside I have found is that they tend to flop and move around a bit. Especially if running or squatting behind cover. My duty belt has enough crap on it as it is, that I haven't really found a quick and secure way of attaching it to the duty belt. It tends to settle between the Taser and the radio on my weak side.

I have had one of the Eagle Industries "chest pouches" that holds 8 AR mags and 2 pistol magazines, for a few years. This was obtained for my SHTF gear, not work related. This is a well made piece of gear, and once put on, it stays put.

The biggest issue I found with the 8 mag Eagle 8 mag chest rig was the weight. By the time I added my pack and water, I started asking if it was overkill.

I now keep the middle two pouches loaded with only one magazine per pouch. This helps me if going prone. If a SHTF event were to occur that I felt the need to don this, but I am not bugging out, I might download to only 4 magazines. The thing I like about it is that I have the option of carrying the full 8 magazines.

It is fun to sit at the computer and come up with various "Red Dawn" type of senerio's, in which we never get tired, shot, killed, or have to take a potty break.

Reality for the individual citizen within this country though can be very different. I would offer that if you found yourself in a situation that required you to reload your 30 rd magazine, you are in a rare event. If you are alone, the odds of you needing 12+ 30 round magazines, and still be alive and engaged, are on the slim side.

PA PATRIOT
09-16-09, 18:30
Phila PD,

I have settled on the two mag version for duty usage. I have found the quality vs. the cost was sufficient for my intended purpose.

I am planning on obtaining the four mag versions for each of the "extra" AR's I have. I feel these make great "emergency" magazine carriers.

The biggest downside I have found is that they tend to flop and move around a bit. Especially if running or squatting behind cover. My duty belt has enough crap on it as it is, that I haven't really found a quick and secure way of attaching it to the duty belt. It tends to settle between the Taser and the radio on my weak side.

The 5.11's have the built in double button snap belt keepers and to further lock down the unit I removed the "Fixed" small "D" rings and replaced them a 2.5 inch climber style spring loaded arm "D" rings. I use the larger "D" ring to clip around my duty belt to further help secure it.