View Full Version : DPMS in carbine classes
I've tried the search but it wasn't very helpful. I know DPMS are on the lower end of the AR totem pole but they seem to be good plinkers. I was at one of my favorite gun shops yesterday and they had about 18 or so AR's in stock. 1 LMT (close to $1600.00) a couple Bushmasters ($1300.oo or so) and maybe a dozen DPMS's for $895.00. How well do DPMS'd hold up in Carbine classes. Do they break frequently? I mean for the price it doesn't sound like a bad deal.
do you own another carbine already?
I would treat it as an investment and buy the LMT. Could you have issues with the LMT?, of course, anything is possible. The thing is, the chance of having problems with the LMT are alot less than the DPMS.
Think of how you want to spend your money and let that be your guide. Think long term and that should answer your question.
I would contact the Carbine class instructor and ask him what parts frequently break and buy extras if you can. I would pay extra and get high end stuff but thats just me.
John_Wayne777
03-15-09, 18:41
I've tried the search but it wasn't very helpful. I know DPMS are on the lower end of the AR totem pole but they seem to be good plinkers. I was at one of my favorite gun shops yesterday and they had about 18 or so AR's in stock. 1 LMT (close to $1600.00) a couple Bushmasters ($1300.oo or so) and maybe a dozen DPMS's for $895.00. How well do DPMS'd hold up in Carbine classes. Do they break frequently? I mean for the price it doesn't sound like a bad deal.
DPMS carbines (and unfortunately many other brands on the market) often have a number of issues. Personally I've seen issues with chamber size, gas key staking, canted FSBs, and even one rifle that doubled right out of the box.
That being said, if you know what you are looking for you can take a look at a gun sitting on the shelf and look for initial QC issues that can cause problems out of the gate. Some are fairly easy to spot (gas key staking), while others are harder to determine just by eyeballing it. (Canted FSB, chamber dimensions)
Once you get past the initial QC issues, the next big problem would be premature breakage of the bolt. One well known instructor keeps (or at least he used to) a log book of all the bolts he's seen break in his carbine classes. I always keep a spare bolt handy because a broken bolt can happen to anyone shooting anything, especially on guns with higher round counts. I have a Bushmaster that had roughly 12,000 training rounds through it with the original bolt with no breakages or problems, but that was fortune smiling upon me more than anything else.
DPMS does make rifles that work out of the box...the trouble is that all of their rifles aren't going to offer that level of performance. Most of the problems are correctable, but that requires more time, money, and know-how.
My suggestion would be this: Shop around. Look for some better deals. The prices you're listing don't sound all that good. There are places selling Daniel Defense M4's for 1500-1700 bucks. Speaking personally if I was looking at a Bushmaster for 1300 I would MUCH rather spend an extra couple of hundred bucks for the superb Daniel Defense offering.
I am very new to AR's , I picked up a dpms A15 for $725 otd, in Oct 08, shot a few hundred rounds through it no problems, took a basic Vickers Carbine course the next month, shot a bunch rounds through it at the course, no problems. Since then have shot a few more hundred rounds also no problems. Have shot mostly wolf or brown bear ammo in P mags. My experience has been fine. According to others on this forum the gun should have fallen apart by now, unlike an associates colt 6920 which he had to return to colt twice for unknown issues, he eventually sold it and has had no complaints from the Arsenal slr 107 AK 47 that replaced it..Just my .02:)
right here, dude. EVERYTHING you need to shoot- even comes with a pmag.
order it tonight and it'll be in your hands before the week is over, if my experience with rainier arms has anything to do with it.
ETA:
oops... would probably help if i included the link...
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1283
No, this would be an extra rifle, I already have a LMT Defender 2000 and a Bushmaster lower with a S&W 15R upper (5.45mm). Just something for plinking and as a back-up at a Carbine course.
Skintop911 posted a great AAR of a class where the DPMS guns were dropping like flies. This was a year or so back. I printed it off, but didn't save an electronic copy of it...
Maybe he'll chime in.
Id still get the LMT. I agree that this should be viewed as an investment. Id keep the new one and use your older LMT for the carbine class. :)
Skintop911 posted a great AAR of a class where the DPMS guns were dropping like flies. This was a year or so back. I printed it off, but didn't save an electronic copy of it...
Maybe he'll chime in.
is this the one ?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7625&highlight=dpms
AAR - Center Mass, Inc. Patrol Rifle Instructor School
I recently returned from a Center Mass Inc. Patrol Rifle Instructor School. The course is an instructor-level, 5-day, 50+ hour curriculum of instruction on pertinent aspects of patrol rifle program development, training, and deployment. On the web here: http://www.centermassinc.com/638278.html
The Course:
Content covered the many pertinent aspects of LE patrol rifle programs. Topics were spaced out throughout the week in a logical sequence. Exercises were conducted in an allotment of time sufficient for the lowest common denominator to achieve a basic proficiency. Two sessions of classroom training were conducted, almost one full day on TD1 and the morning of TD3. Night exercises were conducted on TD3 and covered common low/no light deployment methods. The balance of the course was dry and live fire exercises on at the outdoor range facility.
Included within the course were exercises on a CAPS system for scenario based training. This was a highlight of the course for many, as most students had never used a live-fire simulation system. On the web at: http://www.caps-inc.com/
Throughout the week, students were prompted to spontaneously instruct a particular skill, coach others, and run the line as other students shot. When not assigned such a task, each student coached another student.
The course concluded with student presentations of assigned topics, a written test of material covered, and a COF most found challenging. The COF is well written, one of the better for this purpose in fact, and included a test of each skill learned within the course.
Each student received an exceptionally well prepared and comprehensive manual containing the entirety of course content, as well as additional supportive information and resources.
Students:
Students in attendance were all currently serving law enforcement firearms instructors in agencies deploying patrol rifles, planning to, or contemplating same. Previous training and experience varied, with some who had substantial training, instructional background, or operational experience, and others with only basic/initial LEFI certs. The latter were the bulk of the class. Most of the students were known to each other, and the class gelled well.
Equipment:
Equipment varied. Some arrived with quality gear proven to be GTG that ran with boring reliability. The tendency of administrators to economize was clearly evident, and there was a disproportionate amount of gear purchased with economy in mind rather than performance. There were no surprises.
DPMS: Several in attendance. A disproportionate amount of the stoppages, failures, and issues were with these guns. None possessed sufficient gas key staking. None were staked at the receiver extension nut. One had suspect chamber dims. None had the correct extractor spring assembly. One officer brought a carbine with a 4-position selector, sequenced (from the 9:00) Safe-Auto-Semi-Burst. He fought the gun. DPMS buyers cited low price and immediate availability as primary purchase criteria. When discussing desirable assembly methods and the reasons for them, one owner asked, “why don’t they just do that at the factory?” Overheard from another: “There are four problems with my gun: 1) D. 2) P. 3) M. 4) S.”
Eotechs: The first went loose on TD1, and 2 more during the week. The first went loose again later as well. Guys with these on their guns learned fast, and constantly checked their gear. Also heard: “Hey, who turned off my sight?”
Defensive Edge SLR-15: Nicely assembled. Positive staking of all pertinents. Proper extractor spring insert. When lubed correctly, it ran well. Unresolved quirk while seating a couple of mags. Pending.
HK G36K: Two in attendance, both ran well. The stocks are too long for pretty much everyone, and especially for IBOs. HK mags tend to hang in pouches and pockets due to the tabs that link them together. If mags won’t be linked together in the field, users might consider shaving them off.
Mini-14: Get it hot, run it dry, and watch it lock up tight. Credit where credit is due: the firing pin and extractor made it.
Remington Rem-Oil: Doesn’t go the distance. A light, sporting/commercial grade lubricant that should stay in that venue.
Weaponshield CLP: At least as good as the other CLPs out there, and just may be much better than most. Comparatively less evap, burn-off, and run-off than others on the line, especially Breakfree.
Stoppages due to insufficient lube- multiple. The “less is more” mantras, old military habits, and aversions to having a “messy gun” die hard. Some learned, stubborn others will return to the road with guns that won’t run long.
Loose pistol grip screws- 2. While effecting repair of one, an instructor was surprised to learn that PG screws were not standardized, with some being slotted and some being hex. Only the slotted driver was readily available.
Extraction failures- multiple. Several guns came with rifle extractor spring assemblies, and it showed. Weak or absent extraction in fouled or hot guns was frequent. Most commonly in DPMS.
Magazine issues- Various problems from USGI mags that have been kept in service too long. Some D&H mags were seen with that soft, easily deformed quasi-GI follower.
Likewise, the ammunition supplied for this course provided its own quirks. 21 shooters fired ~21,000 rounds of Remington UMC 55gr MC (p/n L223R3). Bullet setback, bullet deformation, case deformation, jacket/core separation in 1/7 twist, and failures to fire were observed. There were no catastrophic failures.
As always, you get what you pay for. Buy cheap, buy twice.
Some gear that should’ve had issues was spared them. The firing schedule was more than most were used to, but not particularly intense. Further indictment of the gear that faltered.
My gear ran without issue, as it always has. Worn daily:
Colt LE6920 w/ irons only, mounted Surefire G2, Specter sling.
Magpul PMags and CProducts SS mags in Wilderness pouches.
3 handguns, Glocks 23 (belt), 27 (ankle), SW 642 (pocket). Worn every day.
Surefire E-series lights in the pockets.
This was the major shakedown cruise for PMags, and they did well. One showed some resistance to seating in the 6920 and did not drop free when empty. Removing a little material from the top of the mag catch detent seems to have done the trick.
This was also a test of the Weaponshield CLP sample(s) sent from the manufacturer. I started TD1 with a clean and lubed gun. Relubed TD3. Knocked the chunks out and relubed on the morning of TD4. Cleaned and relubed late TD4 and shot TD5 clean. Due to the combined hot/cold range management and breezy conditions, I was able to accumulate a good quantity of dirt and dust along the way as well.
My final round count: ~1200rds.
Parting thoughts:
LESO/1033 M-16s remain viable and popular patrol rifles. They are quality builds, and perform well when properly maintained. When service is indicated, put the good stuff in it to keep it going.
A competent shooter does not require an accessorized M4-type to bring the fight to the bad guy. An incompetent shooter isn’t made better by one. Fundamentals first, especially for the police patrol environment.
Optics and accessories add a dimension to training most instructors underestimate. But they're neat, aren't they?
Instructor development is not a course or a certification, it’s a pursuit that doesn’t end.
Based on the above, I recommend this course to others in need of training on the subject. Good week.
I am very new to AR's , I picked up a dpms A15 for $725 otd, in Oct 08, shot a few hundred rounds through it no problems, took a basic Vickers Carbine course the next month, shot a bunch rounds through it at the course, no problems. Since then have shot a few more hundred rounds also no problems. Have shot mostly wolf or brown bear ammo in P mags. My experience has been fine. According to others on this forum the gun should have fallen apart by now, unlike an associates colt 6920 which he had to return to colt twice for unknown issues, he eventually sold it and has had no complaints from the Arsenal slr 107 AK 47 that replaced it..Just my .02:)
Great, a statistical sampling of one and second hand info about some other guys gun.
The simple fact is that DPMS uses some of the cheapest parts out there. Can a DPMS AR run? Sure can. Can a Colt AR fail? Sure can.
Are the odds better with the Colt than the DPMS? Sure are.
At this point and time I would take about any AR I could get my hands on. If I had my choice though, DPMS would be way down on my list.
C4
Grant hit the nail on the head.
I had a coupel DPMS rifles and got rid of them. They were ok but not exceptional.
Having one good rifle doesn't mean much. I have a Bushmaster that is pretty much Flawless so far with 3K rounds through it since November. I know I got lucky, and pretty much beat the odds. I should have spend a bit extra and got an LMT but I did not. Thankfully I got lucky with this rifle, but it is not a mistake I would make again.
Look at the odds and buy what is proven to be reliable
Powder_Burn
03-16-09, 14:27
I notice DPMS 5.56 rifles tend to get unfavorable feedback whereas the 7.62 rifles get favorable feedback. Why the gap in perception? Are they built to differing standards?
Great, a statistical sampling of one and second hand info about some other guys gun.
C4
How to win friends & influence people:D
Guess when I look for items to buy will have to avoid G&R Tactical, best to get my next Aimpoint somewhere else.
LittleRedToyota
03-16-09, 15:09
I notice DPMS 5.56 rifles tend to get unfavorable feedback whereas the 7.62 rifles get favorable feedback. Why the gap in perception? Are they built to differing standards?
could be that the 5.56 ones are being run hard (like in classes) and the 7.62 ones are not.
i think you find that difference even within just the 5.56 versions. people who just shoot them at the range for fun seem to not have a lot of problems. people who see many of them being run hard, however, do see the problems. (and people who have never taken a class often refuse to accept that it makes any difference how hard the gun is run.)
or it could be something else entirely...
How to win friends & influence people:D
Guess when I look for items to buy will have to avoid G&R Tactical, best to get my next Aimpoint somewhere else.
Just get a BSA red dot, dude! :cool:
How to win friends & influence people:D
Guess when I look for items to buy will have to avoid G&R Tactical, best to get my next Aimpoint somewhere else.
I am not here to be your "buddy." I am hear to tell the truth and share my experience. If you cannot handle being called out on your post, then this is most likely the wrong forum for you to hang out on. ;)
If you take a moment to read the forum rules, there is a specific section about sharing second hand info. This is why I mentioned it (as 1st hand info is king around here).
C4
I notice DPMS 5.56 rifles tend to get unfavorable feedback whereas the 7.62 rifles get favorable feedback. Why the gap in perception? Are they built to differing standards?
Generally 308 shooters do not shoot the same amount of rounds as the 223 guys. I imagine if people shot as much 308 as they did 223, you would see the DPMS 308's have a negative opinion as well.
C4
How to win friends & influence people:D
Guess when I look for items to buy will have to avoid G&R Tactical, best to get my next Aimpoint somewhere else.
all he did was speak the truth.. there's not really any way to lay it "easy" on a guy who's all about DPMS. you guys defend your brand to death.
Just get a BSA red dot, dude! :cool:
LOL, ya an Aimpoint really is too good of an optic for a DPMS. :D
C4
Whats the old saying, "one happy customer tells another, an unhappy one tells ten"; I'm sure your business won't suffer from my not purchasing anything from you, but neither will a many of my friends & associates. The aimpoint, by the way,was for a new daniel defense m4...maybe not a 6920, but one cool toy nonetheless! Anyway, enough of this petty jabbering, and off to finally shoot my new gun :) !
I use DPMS lowers in builds - they've all worked fine.
Same for DPMS LPK's - everything else I generally go elsewhere for though.
Whats the old saying, "one happy customer tells another, an unhappy one tells ten"; I'm sure your business won't suffer from my not purchasing anything from you, but neither will a many of my friends & associates. The aimpoint, by the way,was for a new daniel defense m4...maybe not a 6920, but one cool toy nonetheless! Anyway, enough of this petty jabbering, and off to finally shoot my new gun :) !
That kind of BS doesn't scare me in the least. I have enough customers that know me well enough to not care that I called out a newb on a forum.
C4
I use DPMS lowers in builds - they've all worked fine.
Same for DPMS LPK's - everything else I generally go elsewhere for though.
Lowers are lowers in my book so DPMS lowers are just fine. DPMS LPK's are ok as well (at least their hammers are).
Their BCG's, barrels and RE's are a no go IMHO.
C4
That kind of BS doesn't scare me in the least. I have enough customers that know me well enough to not care that I called out a newb on a forum.
C4
...This is why I buy from G&R!
...This is why I buy from G&R!
;)
C4
Well those of you that know me will spit up your Coke but I traded yesterday for a NIB DPMS 14.5 upper with perm Phantom. It has a 1/9(only one I own) and CL barrel and chamber and a 5.56 barrel and will see what else when I ream it. It was complete with a CH and BCG. Believe it or not the gas key was actually staked correctly. The bolt had a black insert with 4 coil spring. I swore I would never have anything DPMS but I traded a Keltec Sub2k for it and got 30 bucks back as well. The GB that came on it is crap but I figured withy things as scarce as they are I figured it was a good trade.
Well those of you that know me will spit up your Coke but I traded yesterday for a NIB DPMS 14.5 upper with perm Phantom. It has a 1/9(only one I own) and CL barrel and chamber and a 5.56 barrel and will see what else when I ream it. It was complete with a CH and BCG. Believe it or not the gas key was actually staked correctly. The bolt had a black insert with 4 coil spring. I swore I would never have anything DPMS but I traded a Keltec Sub2k for it and got 30 bucks back as well. The GB that came on it is crap but I figured withy things as scarce as they are I figured it was a good trade.
Hey, like my DI told me years ago, "If it's stupid and it works, then it's not stupid." :)
I for one will never buy any more products from GandR if you insult DPMS and their fine line of rifles and carbines.
That kind of BS doesn't scare me in the least. I have enough customers that know me well enough to not care that I called out a newb on a forum.
C4
I am not here to be your "buddy." I am hear to tell the truth and share my experience.
C4
and thats why I read all your post on a subject matter :p
This thread was good for a laugh, thanks.
FWIW- In general, I would prefer the straight advice too. If I were to choose to ignore it, well that's on me.
Grant, did you get the chance to ship out the BCG's that were sold last week?
CaptainDooley
03-16-09, 19:00
I just want to go on record saying that because of the things I've seen Grant post and the way he's relayed his information, I respect him and trust his opinion (especially since it's in line with those of you who have proven to have good info on other forums I frequent)... and because of that I will definitely send him business as I start down this EBR obsession road...
I notice DPMS 5.56 rifles tend to get unfavorable feedback whereas the 7.62 rifles get favorable feedback. Why the gap in perception? Are they built to differing standards?
The .308s have a following among the benchrest crowd. They use exceedingly heavy barrels to get passable accuracy, which isn't very hard to do, at a bargain-basement price compared to the better quality options. A high round count for these guns is 1k rounds. Ever. In the life of the gun.
Whats the old saying, "one happy customer tells another, an unhappy one tells ten"; I'm sure your business won't suffer from my not purchasing anything from you, but neither will a many of my friends & associates. The aimpoint, by the way,was for a new daniel defense m4...maybe not a 6920, but one cool toy nonetheless! Anyway, enough of this petty jabbering, and off to finally shoot my new gun :) !
I'm sure Grant would rather have one customer that will listen and learn than 10 guys that spout off. I have two people with DPMS rifles that do ok, they're hard on brass and generally work ok, but they tend to malf in spectacular fashion and after one year of hard use the barrels are rusting out severely under the FSBs. Can they work, yeah, will they last, probably not.
Amazing how easily some people get their feathers ruffled. Grant is one of the more knowlegable people on this or any other forum. Just because you dont' like his delivery doesn't in any way change the truth of what he said. A sampling of 1 dosnt' mean anything.
HiggsBoson
03-16-09, 20:59
EDIT:Removed unnecessary snark.
Grant is a what you see is what you get. Don't expect any reaching out and coziness, but what Grant will provide is knowledge and call like he sees it. This I appreciate. Not to mention the guy gets gear that blows your mind and he sells it all at very fair prices. Grant is a man of few words (from what I know on line) but he is to the point and he delivers. The best thing about Grant is that he is always attentive on this forum offering good help and advise, he really does have passion about this platform and the industry. I support G&R.
Thanks Grant!
I am very new to AR's , I picked up a dpms A15 for $725 otd, in Oct 08, shot a few hundred rounds through it no problems, took a basic Vickers Carbine course the next month, shot a bunch rounds through it at the course, no problems. Since then have shot a few more hundred rounds also no problems. Have shot mostly wolf or brown bear ammo in P mags. My experience has been fine. According to others on this forum the gun should have fallen apart by now, unlike an associates colt 6920 which he had to return to colt twice for unknown issues, he eventually sold it and has had no complaints from the Arsenal slr 107 AK 47 that replaced it..Just my .02:)
Cant go wrong with an Arsenal!!
Alaskapopo
03-17-09, 03:29
I am very new to AR's , I picked up a dpms A15 for $725 otd, in Oct 08, shot a few hundred rounds through it no problems, took a basic Vickers Carbine course the next month, shot a bunch rounds through it at the course, no problems. Since then have shot a few more hundred rounds also no problems. Have shot mostly wolf or brown bear ammo in P mags. My experience has been fine. According to others on this forum the gun should have fallen apart by now, unlike an associates colt 6920 which he had to return to colt twice for unknown issues, he eventually sold it and has had no complaints from the Arsenal slr 107 AK 47 that replaced it..Just my .02:)
I have a bit more experience with DPMS than you do. The first department I worked for issued 12 of them. Of that 12 4 had issues that needed correcting before they would run out of the box. One had a J spring break which caused the hammer pin to walk which caused the gun to fire when it was put on safe. two had incorrect chamber dimensions and would not run on 5.56 ammo like the barrel said it was chambered for. Yet another was missing its gas tube retaining pin. The next department I worked for that issued them issued 4 of them all hot seated. 2 of the 4 rifles would not run and had to be sent back to DPMS. Not sure what the cause was as I was not an armorer at that department.
My current department issues 8 of them. 4 of them went down when I was teaching a patrol rifle class. Brass was getting stuck in the chamber and had to be knocked out with a cleaning rod. The same ammo ran fine in my Colt. The guns had to go back due to in correct chamber specs. DPMS sucks.
The Colts I have owned have been flawless. My Noveseke is flawless. My new Larue is flawless. The truth is you get what you pay for. There is a reason why DPMS guns are cheap.
Pat
;)C4
Grant has never steered me wrong in the past either.
John_Wayne777
03-17-09, 06:40
Just to add to the fire....a small department local to me recently purchased DPMS rifles for issue....and last I heard about 1/3 of them had to go back to DPMS because they wouldn't run out of the box.
:rolleyes:
I don't get it.
I never heard anyone in this thread say that DPMS is the end-all of AR's. I heard one guy say his ran without malfunction through some range time and a two day class. Why does that piss people off?
I mean, I can understand if someone were to claim thier new DPMS is superior to anything out there because that's what the DPMS website says, but why is it bad when a cheaper rifle runs like it should? How come first hand experience isn't relavent unless it's about an LMT, Colt, Noveske, etc.?
Being new to AR's, I came to this site to research, shut up, and do more research. I learned alot, and that led me to place an order at my local shop for an LMT MRP. While just about everyone here gives good advice, I get the feeling that I'm not allowed to about how my DPMS is a decent rifle, and has yet to fail me. Just my .02.
:rolleyes:
I don't get it.
I never heard anyone in this thread say that DPMS is the end-all of AR's. I heard one guy say his ran without malfunction through some range time and a two day class. Why does that piss people off?
I mean, I can understand if someone were to claim thier new DPMS is superior to anything out there because that's what the DPMS website says, but why is it bad when a cheaper rifle runs like it should? How come first hand experience isn't relavent unless it's about an LMT, Colt, Noveske, etc.?
Being new to AR's, I came to this site to research, shut up, and do more research. I learned alot, and that led me to place an order at my local shop for an LMT MRP. While just about everyone here gives good advice, I get the feeling that I'm not allowed to about how my DPMS is a decent rifle, and has yet to fail me. Just my .02.
Lets review the de-evolution of the thread, shall we?
First we have this, which is his one experience, but is just one experience, and to those that have spent any time here is pretty clearly a trolling post based on the last sentence or two.
I am very new to AR's , I picked up a dpms A15 for $725 otd, in Oct 08, shot a few hundred rounds through it no problems, took a basic Vickers Carbine course the next month, shot a bunch rounds through it at the course, no problems. Since then have shot a few more hundred rounds also no problems. Have shot mostly wolf or brown bear ammo in P mags. My experience has been fine. According to others on this forum the gun should have fallen apart by now, unlike an associates colt 6920 which he had to return to colt twice for unknown issues, he eventually sold it and has had no complaints from the Arsenal slr 107 AK 47 that replaced it..Just my .02:)
Then we have the reply, that points out that it's just one experience
Great, a statistical sampling of one and second hand info about some other guys gun.
The simple fact is that DPMS uses some of the cheapest parts out there. Can a DPMS AR run? Sure can. Can a Colt AR fail? Sure can.
Are the odds better with the Colt than the DPMS? Sure are.
At this point and time I would take about any AR I could get my hands on. If I had my choice though, DPMS would be way down on my list.
C4
then we go to the butt-hurt stage
How to win friends & influence people:D
Guess when I look for items to buy will have to avoid G&R Tactical, best to get my next Aimpoint somewhere else.
Grant, and the rest of the membership here, can't help when people don't like to be confronted with certain things. However, there was nothing wrong with Grant's reply, other than evidently someone got upset that they were confronted with the reality of their opinion.
I think Grant said it best
Can a DPMS AR run? Sure can. Can a Colt AR fail? Sure can.
Are the odds better with the Colt than the DPMS? Sure are.
I'll grant you that the poster was probably looking for a reaction, especially the post about not buying anything from G&R Tactical. Out of line for sure.
But take Grant's opening line in his response:
Great, a statistical sampling of one and second hand info about some other guys gun.
The rest of his post was spot on as you pointed out, but the above line basically says, "I very seriously doubt the accuracy of what you're saying. Dismissed."
I mean, delete that line from the post and there wouldn't have been much to reply to or get offended about. Plus, if this guy really is a troll and everyone knows it, he just got fed.
Moving on from semantics, aren't we really talking about durability here? I mean, taking catastropic out of the box failures away (which shouldn't happen, no matter the rollmark), isn't the difference between low end and high end AR's going to hinge on how long it holds up in stock form? If we can agree that's the case, I'd argue that the OP could really pick any AR out there and be satisfied, as long as it runs from the start. If I remember the first post, he basically said he just wanted a range plinker and a pinch hitter if his other rifles go down during a class.
Isn't it possible we overthink stuff like this sometimes?
faithmyeyes
03-17-09, 09:07
How to win friends & influence people:D
Guess when I look for items to buy will have to avoid G&R Tactical, best to get my next Aimpoint somewhere else.
Hey, great idea. Let's all boycott the truthful and knowledgeable merchants. Maybe they will go out of business and then we can all pretend our own preferred versions of reality are true. Well, until it actually matters, anyway. :rolleyes:
Moving on from semantics, aren't we really talking about durability here? I mean, taking catastropic out of the box failures away (which shouldn't happen, no matter the rollmark), isn't the difference between low end and high end AR's going to hinge on how long it holds up in stock form? If we can agree that's the case, I'd argue that the OP could really pick any AR out there and be satisfied, as long as it runs from the start. If I remember the first post, he basically said he just wanted a range plinker and a pinch hitter if his other rifles go down during a class.
What we're talking about, put simply, is the likelihood of getting a lemon. The fact that you got a lemon may show itself immediately, it may not. It may be readily apparent, it may not. It may be an issue of assembly, quality control, or materials.
The bottom line is that nobody does what Colt does as well as Colt does. Almost weekly I learn something new from someone far more in the know than I about what Colt is doing or what another manufacturer isn't doing. Whether or not a person needs a Colt is for their own sleepless nights, all we can do is confront them with facts.
Isn't it possible we overthink stuff like this sometimes?
Of course it is, but if we didn't there wouldn't be forums. and without the forums, the dealers and manufacturers wouldn't have a venue to make us feel like the modstock and battlegrip we bought two years ago was already hopelessly out of date and in much need of replacement. Most of these people would be far better paying attention to threads like this one and starting out with a quality base firearm than they would watching for whatever new stock/magazine/grip/sling is out and polishing their turd.
:rolleyes:
I don't get it.
I never heard anyone in this thread say that DPMS is the end-all of AR's. I heard one guy say his ran without malfunction through some range time and a two day class. Why does that piss people off?
I mean, I can understand if someone were to claim thier new DPMS is superior to anything out there because that's what the DPMS website says, but why is it bad when a cheaper rifle runs like it should? How come first hand experience isn't relavent unless it's about an LMT, Colt, Noveske, etc.?
Being new to AR's, I came to this site to research, shut up, and do more research. I learned alot, and that led me to place an order at my local shop for an LMT MRP. While just about everyone here gives good advice, I get the feeling that I'm not allowed to about how my DPMS is a decent rifle, and has yet to fail me. Just my .02.
The part you left out is that he followed it up with some story about a guy who had to return his Colt for a problem.
Incase you cannot read between the lines, he was saying that DPMS was good and Colt sucks (without actually saying it).
First hand info is always important, but in certain context. What does that mean? Well if you own a DPMS and you fire 500rds slow fire off a bench a year and it runs perfectly, that does not prove anything. Also, statistical samplings of ONE weapon is virtually worthless. This is why people would be WISE to listen to people that build/repair weapons for a LIVING and professional instructors that see tons of AR's a year.
In all the training I have taken from some of the top instructors in the world, never once have I heard ANY of them recommend a DPMS AR. This should be looked at as a clue.
C4
then we go to the butt-hurt stage
I love this stage! I generally ONLY see it though when someone cannot argue their POV and resorts to threats that they will never buy from us and will tell all their friends not to buy from us.
What they do not realize is that I am actually trying to cut back the amount of business I have and they are playing right into my plan! :D
C4
First of all, what is this nonsense about 'trolling'? Second, I believe you guys are being overly sensitive about this matter. I have Pm'd Grant while making posts and do not believe there is any animosity at all as the posts fom others here may believe. One of my comments to him was that 'perhaps sarcasm doesn't translate well online' or something similar to that. My dpms has run fine so far, my nephews colt did not, statistically significant, of course not, anecdotal, yes definitely. Not eveyone can get a 6920, or the other brands, noveske etc. which I never knew existed before joining this forum :eek:. Hence the reason for being here..to learn and get advice! Nothing more nothing less...well, perhaps to have a little fun and break up the the work day a bit too!
I'll grant you that the poster was probably looking for a reaction, especially the post about not buying anything from G&R Tactical. Out of line for sure.
But take Grant's opening line in his response:
The rest of his post was spot on as you pointed out, but the above line basically says, "I very seriously doubt the accuracy of what you're saying. Dismissed."
Yes, a statistical sampling of one gun with a low round count should ALWAYS be dismissed. I build and fix AR's for a living so it is safe to say that I know what a quality AR looks like.
It is kind of like telling a pilot how to fly a plane when your only experience is in riding on one.
I mean, delete that line from the post and there wouldn't have been much to reply to or get offended about. Plus, if this guy really is a troll and everyone knows it, he just got fed.
No need to delete that line because that is the most HONEST comment I made in the entire post.
We do not tolerate trolls around here and if they cannot take an honest opinion from someone that works daley in this line of work, then M4C is not the forum for them.
Moving on from semantics, aren't we really talking about durability here? I mean, taking catastropic out of the box failures away (which shouldn't happen, no matter the rollmark), isn't the difference between low end and high end AR's going to hinge on how long it holds up in stock form? If we can agree that's the case, I'd argue that the OP could really pick any AR out there and be satisfied, as long as it runs from the start. If I remember the first post, he basically said he just wanted a range plinker and a pinch hitter if his other rifles go down during a class.
Isn't it possible we overthink stuff like this sometimes?
We are talking about durability, but not really. What we are ALWAYS talking about is reliability. How are they different? Well when you discuss durability, you are concerned about something breaking (like a bolt). This does not happen a lot (even on cheap AR's). Many things can hinder reliability. Gas port size, chamber size, staking of the gas key or castle nut, cheap springs in the bolt, etc, etc.
If someone just want a dirt shooter, then buy whatever they want and honestly any AR I could find at a good price, I would buy.
C4
The part you left out is that he followed it up with some story about a guy who had to return his Colt for a problem.
Incase you cannot read between the lines, he was saying that DPMS was good and Colt sucks (without actually saying it).
Or he could have been saying what you said in your post, A DPMS can be a decent rifle and run, and a Colt can fail. Man-made objects are just that, and are never perfect. However, rob_s point about the probability of a lemon isn't lost here.
First hand info is always important, but in certain context. What does that mean? Well if you own a DPMS and you fire 500rds slow fire off a bench a year and it runs perfectly, that does not prove anything. Also, statistical samplings of ONE weapon is virtually worthless. This is why people would be WISE to listen to people that build/repair weapons for a LIVING and professional instructors that see tons of AR's a year.
In all the training I have taken from some of the top instructors in the world, never once have I heard ANY of them recommend a DPMS AR. This should be looked at as a clue.
C4
I don't know how you know every DPMS that runs as it should never gets run hard. That said, I don't doubt your experience or opinion on what a better quality AR is, or what top instructors have told you, but that really wasn't what the OP asked. He asked if a DPMS would suffice for a 3rd AR which would spend most of it's time punching paper and serving as second or third string during a class. To me, the answer is yes. Just about any AR would do for that purpse.
He seems to know that a DPMS is cheaper for a reason. He already owns an LMT and a custom build. What part of the original post makes you think his needs/expectations are that of Vickers or Hackathorn?
You will find no argument from me about whether or not the more expensive AR's are worth it... you guys have convinced me and then some. However, I'm not quite ready to set my DPMS on fire. :D
Or he could have been saying what you said in your post, A DPMS can be a decent rifle and run, and a Colt can fail. Man-made objects are just that, and are never perfect. However, rob_s point about the probability of a lemon isn't lost here.
Yes, but you left out the rest of my comments that the odds are stacked in the favor of the Colt being more reliable because they use higher grade materials, assemble them better and actually follow a standard.
The only standard that DPMS follows is that one that puts the most money in their pocket.
I don't know how you know every DPMS that runs as it should never gets run hard.
I don't know where you got that I used EVERY when discussing the reliability of DPMS.
That said, I don't doubt your experience or opinion on what a better quality AR is, or what top instructors have told you, but that really wasn't what the OP asked. He asked if a DPMS would suffice for a 3rd AR which would spend most of it's time punching paper and serving as second or third string during a class. To me, the answer is yes. Just about any AR would do for that purpse.
Yes, I am aware of what the OP asked. His question was answered and I moved onto other posters comments.
You will find no argument from me about whether or not the more expensive AR's are worth it... you guys have convinced me and then some. However, I'm not quite ready to set my DPMS on fire. At least, not yet. :D
I personally would not sell ANY AR at this time (well maybe an Oly). ;)
C4
FWIW, Grant's post that appears to be causing so much heartache had nothing to do with the OP, and was instead in response to our weekly "my XYZ is just as good as" post.
On the original subject, it's just my opinion, but if my primary goes down (regardless of the venue), I really don't want my backup to be even more suspect. That'd be like trying to finish a Superbike (http://www.worldsbk.com/pubb_EN/index.php) race on a Schwinn when your Ducati goes down.
FWIW, Grant's post that appears to be causing so much heartache had nothing to do with the OP, and was instead in response to our weekly "my XYZ is just as good as" post.
On the original subject, it's just my opinion, but if my primary goes down (regardless of the venue), I really don't want my backup to be even more suspect. That'd be like trying to finish a Superbike (http://www.worldsbk.com/pubb_EN/index.php) race on a Schwinn when your Ducati goes down.
Agree. Your AR has already taken a dump in a class (so you are already "that guy") and now you are going to go to a lower quality AR?
No go for me personally.
C4
On the original subject, it's just my opinion, but if my primary goes down (regardless of the venue), I really don't want my backup to be even more suspect. That'd be like trying to finish a Superbike (http://www.worldsbk.com/pubb_EN/index.php) race on a Schwinn when your Ducati goes down.
If your monthly budget is purging cash, you're right and one would be stupid to buy anything but the best they could afford, safe queen or not.
In my world, where wives and kids and other hobbies get in the way, the difference between a DPMS and an LMT is about a year of going without something else. Where I live, an LMT is going for $1600+ and a DPMS is less than $900. Some of the posts in other threads talking about "just a few more dollars" between the two is completely foreign to me. I can justify an LMT for a "primary" rifle, it gets a little harder if it's going to just sit in the safe or punch paper.
I would spend that same $900 that you're going to drop on a backup DPMS on quality backup parts instead. A spare complete LMT lower was $330, a spare LMT BCG is $130, etc.
You keep shifting around. This is like trying to have a discussion with a glass of water. First it's "just as good for paper", then it's "just as good for a backup", now it's "just as good for the price" or "has to do for the price"...
What is the point here? I'm starting to get dizzy.
Do you want me to say that in the current buying frenzy, and for a rifle that will only punch paper or be used as a backup or otherwise sit in the safe, or only be dragged out for photo-ops and family BBQs to show off, or on and on, that a DPMS at $900 is the best buy? Because I won't.
The best sub-$1k AR is an AK. ;)
ETA:
this is just my OPINION. It is based on my own experiences at carbine classes, drills nights, and 4+ years of running local monthly carbine matches. It does not mean that I'm telling anyone else what to do, or that I frankly care what anyone else does. My backup for my Colt is a Colt, and my backup for that is another Colt. My backup for that is a BCM, and my backup for that is an AK. :D
I would spend that same $900 that you're going to drop on a backup DPMS on quality backup parts instead. A spare complete LMT lower was $330, a spare LMT BCG is $130, etc..Fair point and not a bad investment. OP wanted a complete rifle, though.
You keep shifting around. This is like trying to have a discussion with a glass of water. First it's "just as good for paper", then it's "just as good for a backup", now it's "just as good for the price" or "has to do for the price"...
What is the point here? I'm starting to get dizzy.
I haven't shifted anywhere. The conversation moved a little, and I with it. A DPMS is just as good for punching paper. It isn't just as good as a backup, but will suffice is money is a concern. My last point was only that there are those that cannot afford $3k+ of rifles sitting in the safe, half of which hardly sees the light of day, save for some range trips and to sit the bench during a class.
Do you want me to say that in the current buying frenzy, and for a rifle that will only punch paper or be used as a backup or otherwise sit in the safe, or only be dragged out for photo-ops and family BBQs to show off, or on and on, that a DPMS at $900 is the best buy? Because I won't.
The best sub-$1k AR is an AK. ;)
No, I'd like for you to realize that not every rifle one buys needs to be the cream of the crop, SHTF, high-speed trainer approved, be all, end all of the AR platform. Especially if you've already got a couple high quality examples. It would be fabulous if you could afford entire rooms full of 6920's, LMT's, DD, or Noveske's, but that isn't reality for 99.9999% of us.
When someone asks which gun they should buy, on this forum and others, the first response is usually, "What is the intended purpose?". If the intended pupose is a backup to a quality rifle that is less tha likely to fail, a paper puncher, or a purchase on a budget, an "inferior" rifle will probably be just fine in that role. If the OP said this would be his first and only AR, one that he would take to classes and depend on for his life, I wouldn't have even opened my mouth as you guys piled on Mr. DPMS. In this case though, I think it's a little over the top.
And you're right, the best sub-$1k AR is an AK, but nobody said that till now. :D
As Grant has already said, if the point is just to shoot dirt, or as I said drag it out to show off on the internet and scare your liberal aunt at family BBQs, then yes, the DPMS is probably adequate.
If your monthly budget is purging cash, you're right and one would be stupid to buy anything but the best they could afford, safe queen or not.
In my world, where wives and kids and other hobbies get in the way, the difference between a DPMS and an LMT is about a year of going without something else. Where I live, an LMT is going for $1600+ and a DPMS is less than $900. Some of the posts in other threads talking about "just a few more dollars" between the two is completely foreign to me. I can justify an LMT for a "primary" rifle, it gets a little harder if it's going to just sit in the safe or punch paper.
You can buy an LMT upper for $485, BCG for $129, CH for $20 and LMT basic lower for $330. That adds up to under $1k!
So how good does that $900 DPMS look now?
C4
You can buy an LMT upper for $485, BCG for $129, CH for $20 and LMT basic lower for $330. That adds up to under $1k!
So how good does that $900 DPMS look now?
C4
You slap it together and send it to me. I'll let ya know. :D
Oh, and you can just bill me. ;)
As Grant has already said, if the point is just to shoot dirt, or as I said drag it out to show off on the internet and scare your liberal aunt at family BBQs, then yes, the DPMS is probably adequate.
Yeah, I read that line the first time.
I laughed though, I swear. :)
adrenaline151
03-17-09, 12:30
Threads like this really shouldn't come as a surprise. Look at the "stupidest things you've heard at a..." thread.
I would like to thank Grant, Rob, and any of the guys that deal with this foolishness on a daily basis and continue to try to help us out by putting out the correct info, first hand and no BS. There really is no better way to learn about the AR platform than to browse these forums, and a few others. These guys know wft they're talking about and you can't learn this shit by picking up the bushmaster/dpms/RRA, etc. catalogue at your local gun shop.
I applaude these guys for their resilience. There are plenty of guys that will sell you whatever makes them a buck and then count on you as a return customer. There is a different kind of loyalty when a guys steps up and says "You can have that if you want, but here are the facts. A few more dollars here or there will save you some time, money, and headaches down the road." That creates a huge amount of trust and confidence in that relationship between dealer/buyer.
Threads like this really shouldn't come as a surprise. Look at the "stupidest things you've heard at a..." thread.
I would like to thank Grant, Rob, and any of the guys that deal with this foolishness on a daily basis and continue to try to help us out by putting out the correct info, first hand and no BS. There really is no better way to learn about the AR platform than to browse these forums, and a few others. These guys know wft they're talking about and you can't learn this shit by picking up the bushmaster/dpms/RRA, etc. catalogue at your local gun shop.
I applaude these guys for their resilience. There are plenty of guys that will sell you whatever makes them a buck and then count on you as a return customer. There is a different kind of loyalty when a guys steps up and says "You can have that if you want, but here are the facts. A few more dollars here or there will save you some time, money, and headaches down the road." That creates a huge amount of trust and confidence in that relationship between dealer/buyer.
Thank you for your post. I am the first to admit that I do not know everything. There are many times when I am at a loss and will ask the mods or staff on this forum for their opinion. Or will call someone like Vickers or even another dealer (live Paul @ Bravo company) to work through a strange problem.
Last week, there was a customer in my shop that wanted to buy some odds and ends for their AR. I advised them that they didn't need it and explained why. After they left another customer that was in shop said to me; "you just talked that guy out of several hundred dollars worth of gear!" I said yes, but he will want to buy something in the future and will now trust what I tell him (like telling them to spend a little more to get better).
C4
So I guess the moral of this thread is always buy the best (and usually the most expensive) regardless of the intended use.
There's gotta be a Ferrari dealership close to me. My Jeep just isn't getting the groceries fast enough for me. :D
Funny, I took away my own lessons. It's good to have threads like these to remind me of my next tattoo.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/DQWindmill.gif
[QUOTE=rob_s;330915]The best sub-$1k AR is an AK. ;)
So what your saying is...
But, really, wouldn't your time be better spent updating that excellent Chart of yours with the details of the new DDM4? :D
adrenaline151
03-17-09, 13:54
I don't see the ALWAYS buy the best(most expensive) mindset, it's been laid out pretty clearly, if you want to shoot paper, dirt, tin cans, housecats, whatever you like, one at a time, you're gtg with whatever you have. I like my 10/22 for those types of things.
If you have problems burning your hands on your barrel, buy ammo in lots, not boxes, and life may very well depend on the reliablity of your rifle, then I personally lean toward Noveske and Daniel Defense, but I'm sure Colt and LMT and a few others would be fine as well. There is a place in this world for Wolf Military Classic and there is a place for TAP, M193, etc.
Reliability is key, not cost. LMT is very affordable, compared to Bush/RRA/DPMS, but I think it's in another league,reliability wise. If you have any questions/concerns, take the gun apart and look at it. Almost anyone can tell good quality from bad, and there are plenty of places around to show you the difference.
EDIT: I think this thread has run it's course. If my point was missed or I offended anyone's nobility, I appologize.
Rob,
Don Q. would make a great tattoo. Needs a splash of color though.
CaptainDooley
03-17-09, 15:23
I don't think the best always cost the most... as Grant lined out above you can get a top quality AR if you buy the right parts and slap 'em together (and that included complete upper and lower... so it's not a hard gunsmithing job)... and for around the same price as the DPMS... so why would you buy a DPMS as a backup if you can get a complete LMT rifle for the same price (as long as you put it together)? Seems silly to me.
And as for whether or not a low round count DPMS is reliable... it sounds to me that as long as you don't fire it, it should be 100% reliable... once you start USING it, I wouldn't bet on it...
So I guess the moral of this thread is always buy the best (and usually the most expensive) regardless of the intended use.
There's gotta be a Ferrari dealership close to me. My Jeep just isn't getting the groceries fast enough for me. :D
I think the real problem (or the cause of the problem) is how we look at guns. I view all guns as a tool that I may have to defend my life with. Because of this view, I will NOT accept crap or lower grade AR's, Pistol, Flashlights, Knives, etc, etc.
Where the "rub" happens is when you get a hobby shooter and serious use shooter. They have completely different outlooks on things.
C4
I don't think the best always cost the most... as Grant lined out above you can get a top quality AR if you buy the right parts and slap 'em together (and that included complete upper and lower... so it's not a hard gunsmithing job)... and for around the same price as the DPMS... so why would you buy a DPMS as a backup if you can get a complete LMT rifle for the same price (as long as you put it together)? Seems silly to me.
And as for whether or not a low round count DPMS is reliable... it sounds to me that as long as you don't fire it, it should be 100% reliable... once you start USING it, I wouldn't bet on it...
I tell people (cops in particular) that all guns are reliable sitting in the safe or cruiser. ;)
C4
CarlosDJackal
03-17-09, 17:06
So I guess the moral of this thread is always buy the best (and usually the most expensive) regardless of the intended use.
There's gotta be a Ferrari dealership close to me. My Jeep just isn't getting the groceries fast enough for me. :D
If you buy cheap you'll buy often. For the most part you will get your money's worth especially when you're buying ARs. FWIW, I own an Oly Frankengun, a CMMG Frankengun, an LMT/RRA SBR, an LWRC/TKS Engineering SBR, 3 Bushmasters of various configurations, and a Colt SP1 Frankengun that was converted to select-fire (still waiting on the ATF to approve the Form 4). :D
John_Wayne777
03-17-09, 18:57
So I guess the moral of this thread is always buy the best (and usually the most expensive) regardless of the intended use.
Not at all. The question here wasn't about shooting tin cans. It was about attending a carbine course. If you'd ever had the pleasure of attending a carbine course and spending half your time in the course just trying to make your weapon work you'd understand why I don't consider taking a rifle that has more issues than National Geographic to be a good idea. It wastes your time and money, and makes you a constant source of pain and annoyance for the instructor and your classmates.
If someone is seeking out carbine training I would guess that their plans for the rifle would be grander than shooting clods of dirt on a sunny Sunday afternoon. I'd imagine that the thought of possibly using the rifle for serious social purposes would have crossed their mind. I don't know about you, but when I ponder the purchase of a weapon that I might conceivably be betting on to save my bacon, I want one that works.
I've said this many times before, but I'll repeat it: If you're buying a gun for fun and general merriment, buy whatever you want. You don't need to justify a fun purchase any more than I need to justify my irrational love of mouseguns and finely crafted S&W revolvers.
...but if we're talking about the acquisition of a firearm that even has the possibility of being used for serious social purposes, there ARE right and wrong choices. Some options are demonstrably better than others.
There's gotta be a Ferrari dealership close to me. My Jeep just isn't getting the groceries fast enough for me. :D
Someone buying a DPMS to bet their life on makes about as much sense as somebody who wants to mud bog buying a riced up Honda Civic. Wrong tool for the job.
Not at all. The question here wasn't about shooting tin cans. It was about attending a carbine course. If you'd ever had the pleasure of attending a carbine course and spending half your time in the course just trying to make your weapon work you'd understand why I don't consider taking a rifle that has more issues than National Geographic to be a good idea. It wastes your time and money, and makes you a constant source of pain and annoyance for the instructor and your classmates.
If someone is seeking out carbine training I would guess that their plans for the rifle would be grander than shooting clods of dirt on a sunny Sunday afternoon. I'd imagine that the thought of possibly using the rifle for serious social purposes would have crossed their mind. I don't know about you, but when I ponder the purchase of a weapon that I might conceivably be betting on to save my bacon, I want one that works.
I've said this many times before, but I'll repeat it: If you're buying a gun for fun and general merriment, buy whatever you want. You don't need to justify a fun purchase any more than I need to justify my irrational love of mouseguns and finely crafted S&W revolvers.
...but if we're talking about the acquisition of a firearm that even has the possibility of being used for serious social purposes, there ARE right and wrong choices. Some options are demonstrably better than others.
Someone buying a DPMS to bet their life on makes about as much sense as somebody who wants to mud bog buying a riced up Honda Civic. Wrong tool for the job.
Excellent post, and for the 2nd time this thread, I might add.
For all of the hoopla over how much DPMS sucks, I think the point was missed that I don't entirely disagree. However, I do have one that does run (as improbable and insignificant as that might be), and given the OP's requirement for this particular rifle, my very humble opinion was it might not be such a bad gamble.
Remember, the OP had no illusions about this purchase. It can't be overstated that this is not his only or even primary AR. At least one other superior weapon would likely take the brunt of any training he would do. This rifle, whatever his selection, is a plinker and a backup. A properly cared for, lightly used DPMS would probably finish a class and would surely be fine for the range. Ideal situation? No. Would it likely work? My experience, casual as it may be, says yes.
Grant brings up an excellent point. There is a rub between hobby shooters and the more dedicated among us. Some of you high speed guys have trouble with slow speed advice, and some of us plinkers and part-timers don't take it seriously enough. Who's right and who's wrong? As always, it depends. :)
And FWIW, how you give the advice is sometimes just as important than as the advice itself. Maybe it's because I just smoked a cigarette (I'm trying to quit), but John_Wayne basically told me I'm a fool, and I thanked him for it.
I still think the damn DPMS will work though. :D
Excellent post, and for the 2nd time this thread, I might add.
For all of the hoopla over how much DPMS sucks, I think the point was missed that I don't entirely disagree. However, I do have one that does run (as improbable and insignificant as that might be), and given the OP's requirement for this particular rifle, my very humble opinion was it might not be such a bad gamble.
Remember, the OP had no illusions about this purchase. It can't be overstated that this is not his only or even primary AR. At least one other superior weapon would likely take the brunt of any training he would do. This rifle, whatever his selection, is a plinker and a backup. A properly cared for, lightly used DPMS would probably finish a class and would surely be fine for the range. Ideal situation? No. Would it likely work? My experience, casual as it may be, says yes.
Grant brings up an excellent point. There is a rub between hobby shooters and the more dedicated among us. Some of you high speed guys have trouble with slow speed advice, and some of us plinkers and part-timers don't take it seriously enough. Who's right and who's wrong? As always, it depends. :)
And FWIW, how you give the advice is sometimes just as important than as the advice itself. Maybe it's because I just smoked a cigarette (I'm trying to quit), but John_Wayne basically told me I'm a fool, and I thanked him for it.
I still think the damn DPMS will work though. :D
...And yet, it is nonsensical to purchase one for ANY use when an LMT can be had for approximately the same price. This fact is that independent of intended use, high speed / low speed (?) advice, full or part time (?) status or the phase of the moon, an LMT is many time more likely to provide good service.This is objective fact.
If you already own a high-functioning DPMS and it makes you happy - great. I've got BMs that have served me very, very well for many years and many classes. Would I buy one over an LMT at the same price? Probably not.
I'mGatMan!
03-18-09, 08:38
Funny, I took away my own lessons. It's good to have threads like these to remind me of my next tattoo.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/DQWindmill.gif
That's funny. :D
Classic...and funny.
When I told my good friend GentleBen that I was going to buy myself an AR, he and I spoke for a long while, him telling me to spend more now and get a gun that will last and retain resale value, and me saying, "damn, man...I ain't got that kinda money to spend."
I listened, though. Then I came on here and started learning (lurked a good while before joining), and saw "the chart." Now I'm glad I did my research before buying.
So I guess the moral of this thread is always buy the best (and usually the most expensive) regardless of the intended use.
There's gotta be a Ferrari dealership close to me. My Jeep just isn't getting the groceries fast enough for me. :D
IMHO the above should be this:
"Buy the best you can afford to buy, even if it means you have to wait a bit longer for it." The best are usually labeled such because there are tangible differences, and we don't usually learn those differences until we've had some experience with the best, or, too often, the worst.
My goto gun is a mutt, but the parts each have good pedigrees:
Armalite lower, LMT upper, CMMG barrel, BCM BCG. I too am not a brand snob, but you have to give credit where credit is due.
I'mGatMan!
03-18-09, 10:52
I think the real problem (or the cause of the problem) is how we look at guns. I view all guns as a tool that I may have to defend my like with. Because of this view, I will NOT accept crap or lower grade AR's, Pistol, Flashlights, Knives, etc, etc.
Where the "rub" happens is when you get a hobby shooter and serious use shooter. They have completely different outlooks on things.
C4
I'll cosign this very valid point.
A comment was made as there being a difference between a "serious shooter versus a hobby shooter" ; I think the only "serious shooters" are those in active military or LE/SWAT individuals, guns are one of the tools of their trade or profession. Everyone else, is just a hobbyist or guns are their business. The individual who takes a pistol or carbine course is no very different from the guy who takes golf or tennis lessons. Both want to become profecient and practice their sport or hobby as best they can. I hope that nobody takes offense at my remark, my intention is not to insult,demean, or deprecate anyone. I admit to being quite the hobbyist :), and will eventually with more courses, more reading, and more careful reviews of posts on this forum get better at my hobby. That this hobby may have life saving and practical defense aspects is a different matter all together, hence the need/desire to get better & practice it. Oh yeah, good equipment helps, but if all your present budget allows is a $50 walmart tennis racquet, you play with it till you can afford the $500 one at the Tennis Pro Shop!
A comment was made as there being a difference between a "serious shooter versus a hobby shooter" ; I think the only "serious shooters" are those in active military or LE/SWAT individuals, guns are one of the tools of their trade or profession. Everyone else, is just a hobbyist or guns are their business. The individual who takes a pistol or carbine course is no very different from the guy who takes golf or tennis lessons. Both want to become profecient and practice their sport or hobby as best they can. I hope that nobody takes offense at my remark, my intention is not to insult,demean, or deprecate anyone. I admit to being quite the hobbyist :), and will eventually with more courses, more reading, and more careful reviews of posts on this forum get better at my hobby. That this hobby may have life saving and practical defense aspects is a different matter all together, hence the need/desire to get better & practice it. Oh yeah, good equipment helps, but if all your present budget allows is a $50 walmart tennis racquet, you play with it till you can afford the $500 one at the Tennis Pro Shop!
You pretty much just exactly made Grant's argument for him. Thanks!
SwatDawg15
03-18-09, 12:52
A comment was made as there being a difference between a "serious shooter versus a hobby shooter" ; I think the only "serious shooters" are those in active military or LE/SWAT individuals, guns are one of the tools of their trade or profession. Everyone else, is just a hobbyist or guns are their business. The individual who takes a pistol or carbine course is no very different from the guy who takes golf or tennis lessons. Both want to become profecient and practice their sport or hobby as best they can. I hope that nobody takes offense at my remark, my intention is not to insult,demean, or deprecate anyone. I admit to being quite the hobbyist :), and will eventually with more courses, more reading, and more careful reviews of posts on this forum get better at my hobby. That this hobby may have life saving and practical defense aspects is a different matter all together, hence the need/desire to get better & practice it. Oh yeah, good equipment helps, but if all your present budget allows is a $50 walmart tennis racquet, you play with it till you can afford the $500 one at the Tennis Pro Shop!
It took 5 pages for you to help Grant make his point :D
Grant: Thanks for the BCG, slaped her in the S&W yesterday, headspaced and put 300 rounds down range. No Drama... Really, I mean no Drama. :D
Rob: I hate the chart and everything it stands for. :rolleyes:
;)
Sttrongbow
03-18-09, 15:34
A comment was made as there being a difference between a "serious shooter versus a hobby shooter" ; I think the only "serious shooters" are those in active military or LE/SWAT individuals, guns are one of the tools of their trade or profession. Everyone else, is just a hobbyist or guns are their business. The individual who takes a pistol or carbine course is no very different from the guy who takes golf or tennis lessons. Both want to become profecient and practice their sport or hobby as best they can. I hope that nobody takes offense at my remark, my intention is not to insult,demean, or deprecate anyone. I admit to being quite the hobbyist :), and will eventually with more courses, more reading, and more careful reviews of posts on this forum get better at my hobby. That this hobby may have life saving and practical defense aspects is a different matter all together, hence the need/desire to get better & practice it. Oh yeah, good equipment helps, but if all your present budget allows is a $50 walmart tennis racquet, you play with it till you can afford the $500 one at the Tennis Pro Shop!
I'm not insulted by any means, but I will take issue with you a bit. If you imagine that your rifle might be a defensive tool some day... either as a home defense weapon, or when the zombie hordes rise from the dead, then you had better be at least a little serious about your equipment and training... even if you just run dry fire drills in the garage. In that respect, it's different from a tennis racket. I don't imagine that I'll ever depend on the function of a tennis racket to save my life or the lives of my family.
Although I hope the day never comes, if I ever DO depend on my AR, I want to be damned sure that I've done my bit to make sure I have a reliable tool in my hands.
A comment was made as there being a difference between a "serious shooter versus a hobby shooter" ; I think the only "serious shooters" are those in active military or LE/SWAT individuals, guns are one of the tools of their trade or profession.
That is a HUGE NEGATIVE (and thanks for validating my point). This is why you look at some guns as "good enough" and that chit just doesn't fly with those of us that realize our personal security and the security of our family depends 100% on us! Not some cop, soldier or contract shooter!
Everyone else, is just a hobbyist or guns are their business. The individual who takes a pistol or carbine course is no very different from the guy who takes golf or tennis lessons.
WOW! JUST WOW! Last time I checked, I cannot defend my life with my tennis racket. Totally different thing.
So you are the guy in the class that is screwing off and having a good time while the rest of use are learning how to better kill bad people?
Both want to become profecient and practice their sport or hobby as best they can. I hope that nobody takes offense at my remark, my intention is not to insult,demean, or deprecate anyone. I admit to being quite the hobbyist :), and will eventually with more courses, more reading, and more careful reviews of posts on this forum get better at my hobby. That this hobby may have life saving and practical defense aspects is a different matter all together, hence the need/desire to get better & practice it. Oh yeah, good equipment helps, but if all your present budget allows is a $50 walmart tennis racquet, you play with it till you can afford the $500 one at the Tennis Pro Shop!
Training and guns is not my "hobby." Defending my life and my childrens life is not a "hobby."
This forum is most likely a much better fit for you: www.ar15.com
C4
Sttrongbow
03-18-09, 18:19
double tap
This thread and the turn it took has strangely resulted in an almost irresistible urge to start practicing defensive tennis drills. What could be more fun than breaking an expensive racket over some POS's head? Perhaps there is a market for a racket that can be attached to the bayonet lug.
I think a critical thing that is being overlooked here is that DPMS is hosting a simulated zombie outbreak:
http://www.dpmsinc.com/outbreak/index.html
:D:D:D
Guess I unintentionally ruffled some feathers with my last post;you guys take yourselves waaay too seriously. Look, I don't really see zombie hordes coming down my street, and I'm sure the vast majority of members here do not live in areas like East St louis, the Brownsville section of Brooklyn,Harlem, or Hell's Kitchen.
Rob S commented that his back up colt is another colt is another colt is an AK, Miami or the part of south florida were you live I 'm sure is not that bad; Grant, yes, you have firearms to protect your business, self, family, as do I, but I strongly doubt that they are in constant danger, assuming you are a successful businessman, I'd bet you live in a very secure neighborhood. Criticsize and rant on all you want, ALL I said initially was that my dpms worked. YOU were the ones that imagined I said 'something between the lines" ,I did not, and never intended to..you guys are the ones that misinterpreted my comments.
And as far as AR15.com, not familiar with it till now, but I do enjoy the banter and posts here so I plan on staying, though rob s and grant will put me on ignore I'm sure!
Now you're getting into a whole other argument (are you made of water too?).
Whether or not one thinks they are going to use a carbine for self/family/society defense isn't the question here. Typically on this site it's assumed that you believe in the possibility, however remote, and the need to prepare for same. Most of us like it here because of this, and because we don't have to deal with the "hobby shooter" mentality that you find on too many of the other online discussion forums.
Some of you think that "good enough", is (or at least I think that's where the argument has slipped and slid to for now, I'm sure tomorrow it will be something else). That's obviously your prerogative, but you'll find yourself in the minority on M4C.
Frankly, I'm sick of you intentionally "ruffling feathers", only to turn and backpeddle and say you didn't mean to. If that's in fact the case, you need a lesson in written communication, but I think we all know you're intentionally pushing the limits of trolling just to enjoy throwing up your hands and saying "can't we all just get along" when you're called on it.
Now you're getting into a whole other argument (are you made of water too?).
Whether or not one thinks they are going to use a carbine for self/family/society defense isn't the question here. Typically on this site it's assumed that you believe in the possibility, however remote, and the need to prepare for same. Most of us like it here because of this, and because we don't have to deal with the "hobby shooter" mentality that you find on too many of the other online discussion forums.
Some of you think that "good enough", is (or at least I think that's where the argument has slipped and slid to for now, I'm sure tomorrow it will be something else). That's obviously your prerogative, but you'll find yourself in the minority on M4C.
Frankly, I'm sick of you intentionally "ruffling feathers", only to turn and backpeddle and say you didn't mean to. If that's in fact the case, you need a lesson in written communication, but I think we all know you're intentionally pushing the limits of trolling just to enjoy throwing up your hands and saying "can't we all just get along" when you're called on it.
WTF is up with the hostility? Seriously you read too much into my initial post!
Lighten up before your BP goes through the roof...its an online forum..for goodness sakes.
WTF is up with the hostility? Seriously you read too much into my initial post!
Lighten up before your BP goes through the roof...its an online forum..for goodness sakes.
I can see you leaving here as fast as a DPMS breaking in training class...
Guess I unintentionally ruffled some feathers with my last post;you guys take yourselves waaay too seriously.
Dude, take it from someone who has done the cock tap dance once or twice.
Apologize.
Then read more, post less.
Better to be thought a fool, than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt. - Ben Franklin.
I am very new to AR's , I picked up a dpms A15 for $725 otd, in Oct 08, shot a few hundred rounds through it no problems, took a basic Vickers Carbine course the next month, shot a bunch rounds through it at the course, no problems. Since then have shot a few more hundred rounds also no problems. Have shot mostly wolf or brown bear ammo in P mags. My experience has been fine. According to others on this forum the gun should have fallen apart by now, unlike an associates colt 6920 which he had to return to colt twice for unknown issues, he eventually sold it and has had no complaints from the Arsenal slr 107 AK 47 that replaced it..Just my .02:)
Intentional or not, like it or not, this post came off as you and your carbine are the DPMS pope, granting absolution to every other DPMS that has shit the bed, because you have what 1000 rounds thru it?
Simultaneously, your damning Colt, using the same sample size of one.
No one here, ever said a DPMS will fall apart with in a given number of rounds, or Colts, or any other brand, are infallible.
Only, that the evidence presented here, over numerous posts and threads, even the anecdotal is too much to ignore, is that your chances of getting a good gun, that will prove to be more reliable and durable are better with a brand such as Colt, rather then DPMS.
Backpeddle all you want, but your not foolin anyone.
Bob
This thread went from:
...this would be an extra rifle, I already have a LMT Defender 2000 and a Bushmaster lower with a S&W 15R upper (5.45mm). Just something for plinking and as a back-up at a Carbine course.
To:
This is why you look at some guns as "good enough" and that chit just doesn't fly with those of us that realize our personal security and the security of our family depends 100% on us! Not some cop, soldier or contract shooter!
Now you're getting into a whole other argument (are you made of water too?).
you guys take yourselves waaay too seriously.
Trying to stay on this planet as long as possible needs to be taken seriously.
Miami or the part of south florida were you live
Yeah, no violence going on here. South FL can be very bad. Look at all the cops that were shot and killed last year down here. Shit, a home invasion took place just 3 blocks down from my house last year. (in the same neighborhood)
I'd bet you live in a very secure neighborhood.
Unless you have 24/7 bodyguard or Secret Service protection, I wouldn't rely on a crappy security gate or put my life in the hands of a rent-a-cop.
Guess I unintentionally ruffled some feathers with my last post;you guys take yourselves waaay too seriously. Look, I don't really see zombie hordes coming down my street, and I'm sure the vast majority of members here do not live in areas like East St louis, the Brownsville section of Brooklyn,Harlem, or Hell's Kitchen.
And of course those are the only places where people need fear violent criminals.:rolleyes:
Sttrongbow
03-19-09, 11:17
One thing I don't get....
Why would anyone spend money on a carbine course (say $4-500 for tuition, say $4-500 fro ammo, another $200 for food, gas, lodging) and take a cheap gun of questionable reliability. I mean, you're in to the course for $8-1200. Wouldn't you want to be as sure as possible that your rifle doesn't shit the bed?
I mean, if it's all you have, that's one thing. but even then, there's things you can do to improve your odds.
Rob S commented that his back up colt is another colt is another colt is an AK, Miami or the part of south florida were you live I 'm sure is not that bad
You're not at all familiar with Florida's gang problems in the major cities and especially in Miami-Dade. If you were, you'd know how dumb you just sounded to anyone who's spent any significant time in South FL.
Grant, yes, you have firearms to protect your business, self, family, as do I, but I strongly doubt that they are in constant danger, assuming you are a successful businessman, I'd bet you live in a very secure neighborhood
Successful businessmen only live in very secure neighborhoods? Really?
...but I do enjoy the banter and posts here so I plan on staying, though rob s and grant will put me on ignore I'm sure!
Sounds like you intend on being a shit-stirrer. Am I wrong?
-B
Bob,
Pm sent to you.
Recieved but no need for it.
Bob
Guess I unintentionally ruffled some feathers with my last post;you guys take yourselves waaay too seriously. Look, I don't really see zombie hordes coming down my street, and I'm sure the vast majority of members here do not live in areas like East St louis, the Brownsville section of Brooklyn,Harlem, or Hell's Kitchen.
Rob S commented that his back up colt is another colt is another colt is an AK, Miami or the part of south florida were you live I 'm sure is not that bad; Grant, yes, you have firearms to protect your business, self, family, as do I, but I strongly doubt that they are in constant danger, assuming you are a successful businessman, I'd bet you live in a very secure neighborhood. Criticsize and rant on all you want, ALL I said initially was that my dpms worked. YOU were the ones that imagined I said 'something between the lines" ,I did not, and never intended to..you guys are the ones that misinterpreted my comments.
And as far as AR15.com, not familiar with it till now, but I do enjoy the banter and posts here so I plan on staying, though rob s and grant will put me on ignore I'm sure!
An you do NOT take it seriously enough!
I live in the middle of BFE with all my neighbors are living around the poverty line (no gated community here). ;) The county I live in is 660 square miles. There are generally no more than 3 deputies on patrol for the ENTIRE county. They have advised me that their response time to me is between 20-45 MINUTES! So I am 100% ON MY OWN.
As I said, TOS is a much better fit for you.
C4
Personally I think that this cat is arguing for the sake of arguing and he just doesn't know when to stop. Every point he is challenged with, he comes back and brings forth a new argument.
drsal,
If you want to buy a POS DPMS and use it then more power to you. There are many of us here who choose not buy crap and we take our weapons, gear, cars, TV's and everything else seriously.
An you do NOT take it seriously enough!
I live in the middle of BFE with all my neighbors living around the poverty line (no gated community here). ;) The county I live in is 660 square miles. There are generally no more than 3 deputies on patrol for the ENTIRE county. They have advised me that their response time to me is between 20-45 MINUTES! So I am 100% ON MY OWN.
As I said, TOS is a much better fit for you.
C4
Personally I think that this cat is arguing for the sake of arguing and he just doesn't know when to stop.
There's another guy on this site who's doing the same thing with UTG (chinese airsoft) gear here.
You're not at all familiar with Florida's gang problems in the major cities and especially in Miami-Dade. If you were, you'd know how dumb you just sounded to anyone who's spent any significant time in South FL.
Just to add one little minor detail on to that, we have these things called hurricanes that like to come and hit the southeast, and post-storm shenanigans are a reality, unfortunately. I'm sure any part of the country has it's own form of natural disasters and other mechanisms that can bring about social unrest, of course not to mention the possibilities of breakdown in order if things start to get seriously bad in this country economically.
There are any number of events that can send things to hell in a handbasket, seems to me that making the statement that because one lives in a "nice neighborhood" means nothing bad can ever plausibly happen seems kind of silly to me.
I agree and most of his posts thus far have been annoying. I am trying to pay little attention since I am enjoying my vacation in Rome.
There's another guy on this site who's doing the same thing with UTG (chinese airsoft) gear here.
John_Wayne777
03-19-09, 15:48
Just to add one little minor detail on to that, we have these things called hurricanes that like to come and hit the southeast, and post-storm shenanigans are a reality, unfortunately. I'm sure any part of the country has it's own form of natural disasters and other mechanisms that can bring about social unrest, of course not to mention the possibilities of breakdown in order if things start to get seriously bad in this country economically.
There are any number of events that can send things to hell in a handbasket, seems to me that making the statement that because one lives in a "nice neighborhood" means nothing bad can ever plausibly happen seems kind of silly to me.
Nice neighborhoods are great....but just like churches, schools, shopping malls, national parks, restaurants, or any other place on earth, they cease to be nice places when one criminal crapstain shows up.
Unfortunately there is no magic barrier that keeps bad people out of "nice" neighborhoods or "nice" places like schools and churches.
Generally the only thing that works is sticking a gun in the face of the criminal crapstain who doesn't belong there and giving the credible threat to blow his damn head off if you catch him snooping around here again. That, however, is generally frowned upon by polite society and the law....
There's another guy on this site who's doing the same thing with UTG (chinese airsoft) gear here.
Ban him! :D
C4
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