View Full Version : Update On Requiring Destruction Of Military Brass.
Tom Gresham (Guntalk) talked about this on his podcast on 3-15. On his page listen to the Part B and Part C section of the 3-15 show. This move by the DOD is real and we need to deal with this now. He said that everyone needs to contact their Rep's and just overload them with mail, calls and personal visits.
This comes down to lost American jobs, lost income by the Govt. and just a plain waste of our tax dollars. He doesn't get worked up about much gun legislation, but this has him fired up.
http://guntalk.libsyn.com/index.php?...egory=podcasts
This will impact everyone because the price of ammo will skyrocket even more for all ammo not just .223. Hit IT!!
Remember you are contacting your Federal Reps. Listen to Tom's podcast for good talking points to include in your letter and end it with letting them know that they will become unemployed if this is not dealt with.
The opening salvos of the renewed campaign to destroy liberty....Buckle up...
http://www.shootingwire.com/
Left voice mails and emailed senators Casey and Specter, and contacted the rep in this area as well.
Left voice mails and emailed senators Casey and Specter, and contacted the rep in this area as well.
That's a good start, but will only be effective if everyone backs it up with good old fashioned snail-mail. Inboxes can be deleted with a push of a button, but sacks of mail and swamped phone lines are more difficult to ignore...
Gutshot John
03-16-09, 09:35
T Inboxes can be deleted with a push of a button, but sacks of mail and swamped phone lines are more difficult to ignore...
Actually no, by practice if not by law, constituent correspondence is always maintained. It's always a good idea to let Congress know you're watching, and while bags and bags of snail mail may get more "pop", email is perfectly valid. The only time such correspondence is deleted is 1. If you're not a constituent of the Congressman/Senator (yes they check the address). 2. Abusive/threatening language. 3. Anonymous, no return address.
However I'm confused, in reading your article, the only thing that is mentioned is "exports" of ammunition to Canada, not "imports" of ammunition into the US. While you may disagree with the proposal the 2a doesn't apply.
Perhaps there are other sources of good information? NRA-ILA?
NRA , SAF , and members of Congress are reported to be on this with both feet.
www.theakforum.net
The story seemed to explode on the net Friday afternoon , some versions were truly hysterical. Tough to sort things out over a weekend.
Sort of looks like ( maybe) a dumb middle manager in DOD Property Disposal decided to to do it for the children.
I bet we win , big time.
:cool:
From what a buddy told me in an email this morning, that website posting that is a misunderstanding:
Larry,
That is what Georgia Arms thinks, but actually there is a provision for resale:
DOD 4715.4 authorizes QRPs to recycle firing-range scrap consisting of expended
brass and mixed metals gleaned from firing range clearance through direct sales or
consignment to DRMS. Mixed metals gleaned from firing range clean up are defined
as material (e.g., shrapnel) which is in a form that is unrecognizable from its original configuration and does not require further DEMIL. For information, the DOD
Instruction requires that generators in CONUS who choose to sell expended brass
through direct sale must mutilate it by crushing, shredding, cutting, tearing, scratching crushing, breaking, punching, shearing, burning, neutralizing, etc., or otherwise destroy it prior to sale. If generators sell expended brass through DRMS there is no mutilation requirement. The rule for OCONUS is different. OCONUS QRPs can recycle expended brass through the DRMO. In order to qualify for reimbursement, the generator must demilitarize it prior to turning accountability over to the DRMO.
"SV" or Scrap Venture sales are totally different from brass being auctioned by DRMO.
Brass destined to be sold as once-fired ammunition goes to DRMO/DRMS and is UNAFFECTED.
Apparently you can still get it on gov liquidation but there are some conflicting rumors on that and thats all it is.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-16-09, 12:44
Here is one of the guys blogs from the pod cast. Unless he made up the letters he got, it is pretty clear:
http://www.theshootist.net/2009/03/dod-ends-sale-of-expended-military.html
Gutshot John
03-16-09, 13:34
Here is one of the guys blogs from the pod cast. Unless he made up the letters he got, it is pretty clear:
http://www.theshootist.net/2009/03/dod-ends-sale-of-expended-military.html
And yet it's nowhere to be found on the NRA-ILA website?
Making stuff up (deliberately or out of ignorance) then posting on the internet in order to rile people up? Nah that's never happened before.
So... should we all start selling our .223 rifles? I mean, if this is going to do what some suspect it will do, will .223/5.56 soon be costing $1 a round on the cheap side? $2 a round? If so, maybe I should dump off the 4 I have and get 4 more AK's and a couple SKS's and just keep burning the Russian Wolf 7.62x39 for $0.38 a round?
It's a damn shame if it is as it sounds in that article. I agree, reading the text sounds as if ALL is being considered at SV.
The way it was described to me was any mill brass from use within the continential US would NOT be considered SV. Any mil brass used outside the continental would 100% for sure be considered SV and destroyed accordingly.
found this on another site....have already asked if anyone knows how it originated?? dod / military / admin / congress. Waiting for the nra-ila myself:
this hit the internet thursday, and i ask any and all to obtain a confrimation.
today i have confirmed that the dod/surplus sales auctions have stopped the sale of small arms brass for resale, it must be destroyed.
today i talked to Kay scharch of scharch mfg/top brass and she confrimed they are no longer allowed to purchase brass for resale.
forget the anti-gun version of this, consider just the dollars lost by this decision. brass for scrap will not generate the funds brass for resale will. this is an economic hardship on all taxpayers and a stupid move during an economic down turn.
contact your politicians.....my opinon is to not make it a progun/antigun issue , but a money issue.
Tell him to go here and get it:
3719 lbs of 5.56 and others
http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2247011&convertTo=USD
HowardCohodas
03-16-09, 13:59
Tell him to go here and get it:
3719 lbs of 5.56 and others
http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2247011&convertTo=USD
Not necessarily dispositive. It could be they have not gotten the word yet.
I'm on the SurplusNews@govliquidation.com and I didn't get this alleged email. I'm currently calling shenanigans that some one forged some headers on a few strategically sent emails to whip up a frenzy.
Like its been said before, there are a lot of well connected gun people looking into this, an issue thats been ripening since Friday and here we are at 3pm EST and still no one has an answer?
Pfft.
HowardCohodas
03-16-09, 14:23
I'm on the SurplusNews@govliquidation.com and I didn't get this alleged email.
Not dispositive either. I'm in wait mode to get more definitive information before launching myself on a mission. ;)
I totally agree... some are screaming HOAX... while others swear that the sky is falling.
I don't know what to do yet... cover my head....or point and LOL.....
I do hope for the hoax to be what comes to pass! This would make prices go up...up...and away!
I highly doubt that several remanufacturers and dealers are all bullshitting us on this, knowing full well they'd eventually be caught out. It's not like they weren't backordered already.
Ignore the mud throwing contest and check out the top post on this page: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=844248&page=8
It's said not to attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but this sucks either way.
rubberneck
03-16-09, 16:15
Left voice mails and emailed senators Casey and Specter, and contacted the rep in this area as well.
I wish that writing my Senators would do any good but both of them have F ratings from the NRA and my Congressman has a D. All three are likely to be dancing a jig over the DOD's decision to help protect the kids. I donate to and volunteer to whom ever runs against those clowns but they keep getting elected. TO those of you that have elected officials that are sympathetic please write.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-16-09, 16:26
Maybe we can have a rational discussion here, that AR15 thread makes my head hurt.
How much commercial .223/5.56 is reloaded MIL brass?
How does PRVI sell M193 clone stuff for like $370/1000 on Wideners site? I assume that is virgin brass (although former commie brass?).
All the reloaded stuff I see is more expensive now than new American stuff just a couple years ago. Q3131 could be had all day long at Sports Authority and Bass Pro for $5.99 or less a year ago. Ammo prices looks to have little to do with materials and once fired brass and much to do with demand.
again, a reply on another site:+
this just took affect, so short of notice that brass was sold, that is being recalled....this only happend thur afternoon....give them time to go mark all the auctions...plus if on a third party site it may take longer.
i have talked to both the owner and his wife ( SCHARCH MFG)today.
IT IS TRUE, ALL 50 AND BELOW IS SCRAP, NOT FOR RESALE, MUST BE DESTROYED.
Ghostface03
03-16-09, 18:09
I wrote KKK Byrd and Rockefeller. Doubt either care at all.
Here is another that just surfaced
From: SurplusNews@govliquidation.com
SurplusNews@govliquidation.com
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 5:34 PM
Subject: Important Notice to Scrap Metal Buyers!
http://www.govliquidation.com
Dear Valued Customer:
Please take a moment to note important changes set forth by the Defense Logistics Agency:
Recently it has been determined that fired munitions of all calibers, shapes and sizes have been designated to be Demil code B. As a result and in conjunction with DLA's current Demil code B policy, this notice will serve as official notification which requires Scrap Venture (SV) to implement mutilation as a condition of sale for all sales of fired munitions effective immediately. This notice also requires SV to immediately cease delivery of any fired munitions that have been recently sold or on active term contracts, unless the material has been mutilated prior to sale or SV personnel can attest to the mutilation after delivery. A certificate of destruction is required in either case.
Thank you,
DOD Surplus
15051 N Kierland Blvd # 300
Scottsdale, AZ 85254
i called Wu- his lacky had no idea what i was talking about, but listened to me explain the situation for about 15 minutes with interest. she promised to bring it to his attention at the end of the day and said someone would call me back.
i never get a call back, but i also never get anyone even remotely interested in what i have to say. EVERYONE CALL
Steelblitz
03-16-09, 20:12
Sent a letter to me congressman and two senators last night. This is the perfect storm brewing as far as ammo availability and pricing getting real bad, as if it wasnt bad enough as of late.
Gutshot John
03-16-09, 23:53
So do I understand correctly that they can't sell fired brass that isn't mutilated, but they can still sell unfired cartridges?
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-17-09, 00:54
So do I understand correctly that they can't sell fired brass that isn't mutilated, but they can still sell unfired cartridges?
I will be more than happy to shoot it for them so that they can mutilate it.
There are still mixed opinions on whether this is even a valid issue, or a tempest in a teapot.
See this thread, started by a moderator at another forum:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=435840
Today it's starting to look more like this issue may have some validity. All the previous auctions that said "Mutilation not required" have suddenly been pulled from the liquidation site. Now, all of the brass lots for sale say things like:
http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2272021&convertTo=USD
"REQUIRES MUTILATION BY THE BUYER PRIOR TO REMOVAL IF ALLOWED BY THE INSTALLATION OR MUTILATION MUST BE WITNESSED AND CERTIFIED BY DOD SURPLUS PERSONNEL AT ANOTHER FACILITY."
It'll be interesting to see if official sources like NRA-ILA begin to get involved with this today. It's pretty clear SOMETHING out of the ordinary is going on.
Double tap. Delete please..
Yes Maximus, it looks as if our fears of yesterday, in that this may not be an elaborate internet hoax may be coming true. I saw this morning when I got to the office that the site descriptions changed saying that the brass must be destroyed. That was the first sign that maybe this is something to be honestly worried about.
I also hope that high up voices get heard and that this may get re-explained and decided that this is not the way to do business. I see no federal gains in destroying it all, I only see gains in upping the cost of ammunition and limiting the available supply by removing some of the source from the reloading companies that specialize in once used brass.
This will have an impact on our future as firearm collectors and enthusiasts. It will be a negative impact for sure.
Hearsay on another site:
"I called the NRA-ILA (INSTITUTE FOR LEGISLATIVE ACTION). I spoke with a guy named Eric and he put me on hold for a few minutes till he could get the latest info on this subject.
After returning to the phone he gave me a bunch of info. The NRA is definitely aware of the problem and have heard from some reloaded ammo companies and individuals. Eric rattled off all the DOD agencies invlolved and apparently this may have been "somewhat of a mistake" The ranking DOD agency has heard our concerns and condsiders them VALID!!
Right now, the word is from DOD to the NRA that they hope to have a WAIVER put into place within a two or three weeks which will CORRECT this situation and return once fired brass, .50 caliber and below to the sales policies previously used!!!
Eric said it might be helpful to call our Congressmen just in case and make them aware of the impact on the DOD budget, police training, and inidividual rights."
Gutshot John
03-17-09, 11:14
Eric said it might be helpful to call our Congressmen just in case and make them aware of the impact on the DOD budget, police training, and inidividual rights."
[/B]
Consider it done.
Its going to be what its going to be. No sense in getting worked up about it til we find out for sure if this is a DRMS issue or a bunch of pig headedness on the part of govliq.
I suspect that this is govliq's way of reducing manpower costs. Gotta have a guy to figure out if something is required to be demil'd? No prob, just declare that everything's gotta be mutilated.
Eric said it might be helpful to call our Congressmen just in case and make them aware of the impact on the DOD budget, police training, and inidividual rights."
Done and letters are sent out
I bet we win this one.
E-mails & letters sent.
It sounds more and more like a typical DoD junkyard clusterfak every day.
DoD stays busy these days , it may take a few weeks to sort this out.
We are still winning.
www.saf.org
www.nra.com
Its going to be what its going to be. No sense in getting worked up about it til we find out for sure if this is a DRMS issue or a bunch of pig headedness on the part of govliq.
I suspect that this is govliq's way of reducing manpower costs. Gotta have a guy to figure out if something is required to be demil'd? No prob, just declare that everything's gotta be mutilated.
And what better way to cut labor costs than by immediately cutting the value of your product by 80 percent...it must take several dozen Fortune 500 CEO's working three shifts to figure out if something has to be demilled or not, by the amount of money they'll be losing, err, saving.
Me, I'd just pay some guy minimum wage and make sure he worked hard. But devaluing your product by 80 percent is a good method of cutting labor too. Do that for long enough and you can have every company's dream, zero labor costs.
I believe we're going to come out ok on this one. Just got a call back from Govt Liquidation, and they said the requirement to "mutilate" the empty brass cases was just terminated by the DLA. Although they received notice on Friday that they had to start mutilating all the brass, apparently DLA reversed that decision, and contact them today. They are already updating the language on their auctions site, and she said over the next 24 hours all the "mutilation required" language will be gradually removed.
Needless to say, I was pretty curious about why this all happened, and why they reversed it. Unfortunately, she didn't know any of the background.
fatebringer
03-17-09, 13:42
Well, if you believe 4th-5th hand info posted on TOS (and an anonymous "it guy at gov liquidators")
This supposedly came from Senator Lindsey Graham's office today:
Below is what Senator Graham's office has found.
They are monitoring the waiver request closely and should know something in the next 2-3 weeks.
As you know, this would be a big problem for law enforcement agencies with
low budgets (most of them) and recreational shooters who depend on expended
military brass for reloading if the waiver is not granted. There is no
"security risk" for selling used brass in bulk. It was probably just a
short-sighted bureaucratic move that did not foresee the unintended
consequences.
Military property is subject to certain coding, according to its type and
use, whether it can be sold commercially and, if so, under what
restrictions.
According to the sales division of the Defense Reutilization and Marketing
Service (DRMS), fired small arms cartridge cases, until recently, were DEMIL
(demilitarization) Code E, meaning that they could not be sold unless
destroyed. However, a waiver to the destruction requirement allowed the
cases to be sold intact, within the United States, but not for export.
Property given DEMIL Code B could be sold as well, under some restrictions.
However, in the last days of the Bush Administration, Under-Secretary Bell
issued a policy letter prohibiting the sale of Code B property. A waiver
could be obtained, to allow the sale of Code B property if destroyed in a
prescribed manner. At the time, this was irrelevant to the question of small
arms cartridge cases, because they were still Code E.
Recently, however, the Demilitarization Coding Management Office within the
DRMS recommended that small arms cartridge cases be given Code B. This
recommendation was accepted. Therefore, currently, fired military small arms
cartridge cases are Code B property that may be sold only if destroyed.
However, the sales division of DRMS, recognizing the impact that this new
policy will have on small businesses who sell loaded ammunition utilizing
these fired cases, and upon gun owners who purchase such ammunition at
considerable cost savings, has suspended the collection of fired cartridge
cases from military bases, to prevent their destruction. And, they will be
petitioning for a waiver, to allow the sale of intact cartridge cases .50
caliber and below. They are not asking for a waiver for larger cases, which
are purchased as souvenir type items –– artillery shells, for example. They
anticipate that within the next 2-3 weeks, the waiver will be approved.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-17-09, 13:46
Sounds like the full-timers are taking care of this. I hope it goes away soon. I could definately see O'bama's people getting ahold of this idea and running with the "Why do you need MILITARY ammo on our streets?" propoganda.
Been looking to buy some ammo and this was enough of a kick to get some ammo. My UPS man is going to curse me.
fatebringer
03-17-09, 13:49
I sort of had the same thought when people started contacting DC about this. I suspect most of DC doesnt KNOW that the DOD was selling brass that was being reused and some of them very well could do the opposite of what we wanted.
browningboy84
03-17-09, 14:45
I dont know what will happen, but I saw this post last night. I called the NRA state rep for Ga, and he confirmed it. Luckily for me, I am a committee chairman who is doing gearing up for a banquet, so I had a pretty easy time getting a hold of him. I have had enough of all this bullshit with ammo prices. I am buyin a reloader!!!!
exkc135driver
03-17-09, 16:27
Get a Dillon.
HowardCohodas
03-17-09, 20:00
It would appear that DoD has reversed their position.
http://www.jpfo.org/alerts03/alert20090317.htm
Dear MSSA Friends,
I just received a phone call from the office of U.S. Senator Tester of Montana to inform me that at 5:15 (EST) today a letter cosigned by Senator Tester (D-MT) and Senator Baucus (D-MT) was faxed to the Department of Defense asking DoD to reverse its new policy requiring destruction of fired military cartridge brass. At 5:30, I am told, Tester's office received a fax back from DoD saying that the brass destruction policy IS reversed.
Others report to me that they are already seeing evidence of this on the Websites of entities that liquidate surplus DoD commodities.
Our thanks go out to Senator Tester and Senator Baucus, and their staff, for getting on this problem promptly and making the reversal happen
Staff for Tester and Baucus promise they will get me the documentation for this reversal tomorrow morning. I'll forward that when I get it.
Best wishes,
Gary Marbut, president
Montana Shooting Sports Association
http://www.mtssa.org
author, Gun Laws of Montana
http://www.mtpublish.com
The same info , from a known solid source , has been posted at:
www.theakforum.net
Looks like we won and very quickly.
:)
We are winning.
:cool:
Gutshot John
03-17-09, 20:19
The same info , from a known solid source , has been posted at:
www.theakforum.net
Looks like we won and very quickly.
:)
We are winning.
:cool:
Excellent...this should prove to everyone the value of grassroots efforts at opposing gun control stupidity.
Thank you to everyone who stood up and demonstrated to Obamarama supporters that we are paying attention.
Don't let up! Keep your heel on that throat.
Kick them when they're down.
:)
It's for the children.
:D
M4tographer
03-17-09, 21:50
Kick them when they're down.
:)
It's for the children.
:D
Brilliant. :D:D:D
Excellent...this should prove to everyone the value of grassroots efforts at opposing gun control stupidity.
Thank you to everyone who stood up and demonstrated to Obamarama supporters that we are paying attention.
Don't let up! Keep your heel on that throat.
Exactly. Vigilance and action is required these days.
"Kick them when they're down. It's for the children."
Very good. :D:D:D:D:D
I also like, "Get off my brass." (Apologies to Clint Eastwood's "Gran Torino".)
"Kick them when they're down. It's for the children."
Very good. :D:D:D:D:D:
I also like, "Get off my brass." (Apologies to Clint Eastwood's "Gran Torino".)
From the NRA website:
-----Original Message-----
From: Cunningham, Mark (HQ DLA)
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 5:51 PM
To: Brian Blalock (Tester)
Cc: Glover, Rebecca (HQ DLA)
Subject: Small Arms Cartridge Cases
Brian,
We received your March 17, 2009, letter on the recent reclassification of small arms cartridges. Please advise whether the information provided below will suffice in lieu of a written response which will contain the same information.
The Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service (DRMS), a field activity of the Defense Logistics Agency (DLA), is the Department of Defense (DOD) activity responsible for the disposition of excess and surplus DOD Property.
The primary focus of the DRMS mission is to protect national security by ensuring property is properly identified for reutilization and disposition and not released for public sale when to do so would jeopardize national security.
During the past two years, DRMS revised its processes to further ensure only appropriate items were made available for public sale. To strengthen current controls and to mitigate future security risk, the DOD issued policy that prohibits the sale of military unique items controlled by the Department of State through its Munitions List.
Small arms cartridge cases are identified as a sensitive Munitions List item and were held pending review of the policy relating to the category of items in which cartridge cases were included. Upon review, the Defense Logistics Agency has determined the cartridge cases could be appropriately placed in a category of government property allowing for their release for sale.
The DRMS sales contractor has been notified of this decision and has begun the process of reoffering the cases that have been held pending completion of the policy review. As was previously required, buyers who purchase cartridge cases from the government must be approved to do so under Trade Security Controls.
v/r
Mark
Mark Cunningham
Legislative Affairs
Defense Logistics Agency
Another one for the good guys ... :)
mmike87,
I love your sig line.
:D
I wonder , since we won -- and this is now very good news:
Will the OP update the first post in his update? So it stays updated?
Good news article http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/NRA_ammo_shortages/2009/03/19/193903.html :D
.....( Snip for brevity).....
I also like, "Get off my brass." (Apologies to Clint Eastwood's "Gran Torino".)
:D
Yeah , "Get off my brass" could be the new, "Make my day".
The gun-grabbers have some clinical delusions of adequacy , that can be a serious disadvantage in the real world.
For the most part , in Congress and in most states , for the last 12 years or so-- they keep losing and we keep winning.
www.saf.org
www.nra.com
We are winning.
:)
exkc135driver
03-25-09, 18:46
Good news article http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/NRA_ammo_shortages/2009/03/19/193903.html :D
The news is good, so I shouldn’t complain … but, the first sentence of the article says:
“Gun owners concerned about growing shortages of ammunition nationwide got a bit of a reprieve this week when the Defense Department rescinded a rule requiring that spent military bullets be destroyed rather than reloaded for sale to civilians.”
Why is it that the media never … ever … get it right?
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