View Full Version : The Mexican Drug War and the FN Five-Seven
Iraq Ninja
03-16-09, 14:39
Sounds like the 5.7 is getting a lot of down range time in Mexico...
Obviously, there are numerous errors in the article in regards to the round, gun shows, etc...
11:34 PM CDT on Friday, March 13, 2009
By BYRON HARRIS / WFAA-TV
The Mexican drug wars killed 6,000 people last year. In many cases, the weapons used to perpetrate that bloody violence are coming from Dallas.
The FN Five-Seven is an assault weapon you can hold in your hand. It's made by Fabrique Nacional in Belgium and equipped with a magazine that holds 20 rounds.
Its bullets can tear through a protective vest.
"This is known as a 'cop killer' down in Mexico," said James Ruffin, a special agent with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. "It's one of the weapons of choice for the drug cartel and the Zetas."
The FN Five-Seven is the perfect weapon for Mexican drug cartels to use against each other or the Mexican police. What makes this weapon so deadly is not just the gun, but the ammunition it fires. It's very light and it exits the barrel at a very high velocity.
The projectile tumbles when it hits the target, ripping a large hole in the victim, much like the M-16 rifle used by American troops in combat.
"These cartels are digging their heels in and are fighting back — and are fighting back with the type of firepower that we see in wartime conflicts," said Drug Enforcement Admnistration agent James Capra.
Cartels depend on the United States for firepower, since guns can be easily purchased here. In Mexico, weapons are very tightly controlled.
Texas supplies more guns to Mexico than any other state. In 2007, more than 1,100 weapons originally sold in Texas were confiscated in Mexico, more than all other U.S. states combined.
The FN Five-Seven costs $800 to $850 at gun shops, flea markets or gun shows in Texas. But it can bring $2,600 in Mexico, where gun sales are illegal, making the FN Five-Seven attractive for smugglers.
"They have four or five people that buy these firearms legitimately," Ruffin explained. "And then these five people don't know each other, but they have a common source that's providing them the money ... and then they will bring those firearms to this one person, who then trafficks them down to Mexico."
Gun shops in Texas must run background checks on all buyers. If a buyer has no criinal record, the sale goes through. Buyers at gun shows and flea markets aren't checked at all.
Since cargo entering Mexico is rarely checked by Mexican customs, the weapons aren't discovered until they're recovered at crime scenes across the border. And there are plenty of those.
More than 900 people were murdered in Juarez — across the border from El Paso — last year.
The source of the violence is drugs. The source of the firepower is Texas.
Sounds like the U.S. needs to end the drug war and Mexico needs to allow lawful citizens to purchase firearms. Lots of profits going into the wrong hands on both sides.
And what a great advertisement for the Five-Seven to boot!
variablebinary
03-16-09, 14:50
Can we just close the damn border already...
Clearly this relationship isnt working
I saw an interesting article in Rolling Stone recently about the "Mexican Drug Wars". It was interesting in that I couldn't help but notice the irony in a magazine bemoaning all these deaths when it's the drug culture that they promote and glorify that is responsible for the deaths.
Don't want Mexicans killing each other? Stop smoking/snorting/shooting drugs. Problem solved.
Gutshot John
03-16-09, 15:50
Mmmmm media sensationalism anyone?
I wonder how much of this is based on reality and how much is based on FN marketing being bought into by both drug lords and anti-gunners...even though I'm sure both wish it was true.
Who knew the 5.7 was such a deathray, but claiming that a pistol is the equivalent of a rifle is straining credulity.
Perhaps the article might have been informative if the author had actually bothered to research how many people have actually been killed by the 5.7.
My guess is that 9mm is killing far more people.
Being a "cop" I have often wondered why just certain rounds in the media are refered to as the "cop killer." You never hear, "the 7mm Rem Mag "cop killer." The .338 Lapua Magnum, also known as the "cop killer." Like back to the days of the "black talons" and such.
Sometimes I sit and think and sometimes I just sit............:cool:
And +1 for closing the damn border.
Red
Maybe Mexico should build a fence.
"In Mexico, weapons are very tightly controlled."
Unlike all the drugs:rolleyes:
Sounds like the U.S. needs to end the drug war and Mexico needs to allow lawful citizens to purchase firearms.
You mean hold people responsible for their actions?Rather than the items they misuse/abuse?
Thats a novel idea.
VooDoo6Actual
03-16-09, 18:03
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/AbsolutePowercorruptsabsolutely.jpg
VooDoo6Actual
03-16-09, 18:04
Double Tap.
Please delete.
For some background on the issue that's reported much more effectively:
http://www.mysanantonio.com/Gun_Running_Series_Part_1.html
And as far as the cop killer designation for the FN 5.7 goes, the things are referred to by my neighbors across the border as "matapolicias." It's a literal translation.
Oh, and if you think the Mexican cartels aren't heavily armed, this all came out of one house in Reynosa last November:
http://homepage.mac.com/jones/GulfCartelArsenal_1.JPG
http://homepage.mac.com/jones/GulfCartelArsenal_2.JPG
http://homepage.mac.com/jones/GulfCartelArsenal_5.JPG
http://homepage.mac.com/jones/GulfCartelArsenal_6.JPG
288 rifles, a bunch of pistols, half a dozen 50 cals, and 500,000 rounds of ammo. One house.
Gutshot John
03-16-09, 23:36
For some background on the issue that's reported much more effectively:
If you read a little closer...
Some of the guns found amid the carnage in Aguascalientes, including a Walther G22 assault-style rifle and a Beretta M9 semi-automatic handgun, began their 475-mile journey in Laredo. Sold legally from a cramped store overlooking the Rio Grande, they were then resold, smuggled, stashed, handed off, and left by the narcos at the bloody scene of Black Thursday. Now, they rest in a Mexican army vault.
A .22lr Walther G22 is now an "assault-style rifle"?
I'm not sure how it's an improvement.
The problem, and it was alluded to in that SA Express News article, is the inter agency bickering. The Mexicans won't talk to the Americans. The ATF won't talk to ICE. etc, etc. Combine that with widespread corruption in the Mexican law enforcement agencies and it is just cake for the cartels.
And saying that well, its Mexicos problem is like watching your neighbors house burn on a windy day and pretending your property is just fine. Gangs are a big problem in Texas cities, and getting worse with each day. Working in LE, I've personally seen the gang problem getting worse each year over the past half decade. The primary purpose of these gangs is to deal drugs, drugs mostly supplied from Mexico.
The thing is, we (USA) and Mexico as well need to decide if we are serious about fighting illegal drugs or not. Because half assed and half hearted enforcement and idiotic symbolic laws like weapon bans aren't going to do jack shit. If the answer is yes, then there needs to be fluid communications both intra-agency, inter-agency, and extra-national or we are just wasting time and money. Militarize the border if need be. Obama wants to create jobs; OK well instead of giving money to failing companies or creating more porkulus packages, lets double, hell triple the about of Border Patrol agents and get them to work. Have the ATF stop ****ing with people over 1.5" of barrel length and C&R bound books and have them working on locking up straw purchasers. Set up a few major stings, get a bunch of people arrested and parade them on TV - send the message, you straw purchase you will get busted.
If not, well just legalize everything and the free market will deal with the cartels and bankrupt them in a month.
Gutshot John
03-17-09, 00:20
Oh, and if you think the Mexican cartels aren't heavily armed, this all came out of one house in Reynosa last November:
Oh I wasn't doubting for one second that they're heavily armed, I was just pointing out the sensationalism involved in reporting.
One question however is where they're buying all the military hardware like M203 rounds and grenade launchers? It's not like they're available at your local gun store for purchase.
I do see a lone 5.7 on the table. I'm going to AZ in May for a wedding, and I will be packing (thank goodness for reciprocity).
http://homepage.mac.com/jones/GulfCartelArsenal_6.JPG
i think i just jizzed my pants a little..
my guess is most of these weapons came straight from the mexican government- army and/or police. not texas.
yeah alot of them have the selector in the full auto position, obviously those were not just bought at some gun store in texas.
John_Wayne777
03-17-09, 06:46
Neither were the grenades.
The notion that Mexico's violence problem is caused by American guns is the most absurd ****ing thing I've heard in years. Mind numbingly absurd. Eye-burstingly, aneurysm-inducingly, heart-explodingly absurd.
http://homepage.mac.com/jones/GulfCartelArsenal_5.JPG
288 rifles, a bunch of pistols, half a dozen 50 cals, and 500,000 rounds of ammo. One house.
My man must have had some big-ass closets.
Neither were the grenades.
The notion that Mexico's violence problem is caused by American guns is the most absurd ****ing thing I've heard in years. Mind numbingly absurd. Eye-burstingly, aneurysm-inducingly, heart-explodingly absurd.
+1. It's ridiculous.
my guess is most of these weapons came straight from the mexican government- army and/or police. not texas.
Nope. Lot's of guns/ammo and money move south from the States. Some of it departs Florida on boats but most is moved with un-inspected trucks going south.
Edit:
One of the positive things that BATF does is to try and stop this. These weapons find their way to Mexico via two avenues here in the U.S. ;
The first is a lot of gun owners do not secure their weapons and stolen guns are big business. (most folks just lock the case and put it in the closet or under the bed)
The second is "straw prurchases" . We all know what that is.
That is one of the reasons why the Dems want an AWB to get these off the streets and slow/stop the flow south. (kiss mexico's ass)
-- If you know someone who does not secure their weapons in a safe then they are part of the problem... Please push them to do the right thing!
-- If you are approched to buy a gun for someone.... report them!!
.
DANGER CLOSE
03-18-09, 05:13
the grenades appear to be m69 frag but they are from korea and marked similar to us military, this from another thread from another site.
AMMOTECH is absolutely right re: boats out of FL. I know it's not a popular thing to point out but...
When I was selling guns in the lat '90s we had a customer that would come in with a thick hispanic accent. He always passed the background check, and he bought a Tec-9 and a Bushmaster AR the first, and only, time I dealt with him. I just flat didn't like the guy because he had the whole turd-world "let's barter for everything" attitude and I got tired of him asking for freebies throughout the whole deal. When he came in two weeks later and bought the same thing again, I used this as an excuse to stop dealing with him since I thought he was now fishy in addition to being annoying as all hell. He came in at least once or twice more, and I told the owners of the shop that he was doing something illegal and that I wouldn't even so much as talk to him much less sign the 4473 as I didn't want to be called as a witness to something 5 years later (it happened on another case to another employee while I was working there).
They finally got the hint and called the ATF on the guy after he placed a special order for two Tec-9s and 3 ARs (after I wasn't working there anymore). ATF staked out the place when the guy came to pick up the guns, and followed him when he left the store. We were in central Florida, and the guy drove straight to Miami, straight to a marina, and loaded them up on a boat that (had the .gov not intervened) was headed straight to Columbia.
The one ironic thing here was that this was during the ban, so clearly the first AWB had no impact on this. Unfortunately if these kinds of things are used as reasons to enact a new ban it will just be fuel to make it tougher.
On a side note, the ATF forced my former bosses to take a check from the guy. Since the guy didn't make the sale and put the cash in the account, the check bounced. The store was now out the 5 guns, but still had to pay the distributor for them. It took repeated calls to our congress-critter to get the ATF to return the guns.
Mexico's problems are just that ... Mexico's problems. If we'd just keep them and their problems on their side of the border, we'd all be better off.
It's certainly not the fault of the US that they are a corrupt, impoverished third world country. Who will they blame when we're one, too?
Rob, there is another post just put up about a re-attempt at the gun ban and they mention that the 94-04 ban allowed the manufacturers "to make minor changes and continue to sale" the banned weapons. I bet if this is re-instated, the talking heads will outlaw not only the mag capacity and such, but they will outlaw a complete style of weapon to effectively make it so you can only go to a Sporting goods store and buy deer hunting rifles and Rugar 10/22's!
Neither were the grenades.
The notion that Mexico's violence problem is caused by American guns is the most absurd ****ing thing I've heard in years. Mind numbingly absurd. Eye-burstingly, aneurysm-inducingly, heart-explodingly absurd.
1+
Take a look at that table. How many of those weapons came from a guy who passed a background check in the States and took the guns to Mexico? I doubt it was many of them. Even though it may happen occasionally the idea that it in any significant way contributes to the violence in Mexico is utterly ridiculous.
[QUOTE=rob_s;331508]
They finally got the hint and called the ATF on the guy after he placed a special order for two Tec-9s and 3 ARs (after I wasn't working there anymore). ATF staked out the place when the guy came to pick up the guns, and followed him when he left the store. We were in central Florida, and the guy drove straight to Miami, straight to a marina, and loaded them up on a boat that (had the .gov not intervened) was headed straight to Columbia.
The one ironic thing here was that this was during the ban, so clearly the first AWB had no impact on this. Unfortunately if these kinds of things are used as reasons to enact a new ban it will just be fuel to make it tougher.
QUOTE]
Were these "special orders" guns that were already AWB'd (meaning no more than 10 rounds mags, standard A2 buttstock, etc or were they pre-ban guns?
TRD, they were all NIB "ban era" neutered guns that were ordered from big distributors.
FN should use that article to sell more Five-Seven's!! Makes me want to go buy one for each hand ;)
Gutshot John
03-18-09, 12:32
FN should use that article to sell more Five-Seven's!! Makes me want to go buy one for each hand ;)
So you can do that hyper-cool, double-reverse gangsta-grip that Starbuck uses on BSG?
Right about the 10 second mark.
http://trekmovie.com/2009/02/06/bsg-preview-blood-on-the-scales-caprica-coming-to-dvd-in-april/
Apparently the 5.7 is all the rage for cappin cylon ass. Now if it only worked as well for the rest of us.
:D
In that picture with all the M4s, what the hell is that third rifle from the right? The mag well looks huge. 7.62?
Gutshot John
03-18-09, 13:00
In that picture with all the M4s, what the hell is that third rifle from the right? The mag well looks huge. 7.62?
Just as a guess with the rounded receiver and rail that it's a Fulton Armory FAR.
There was a video of a Mexican hit in a jewelry store, where all three gunmen were using automatic AKs.
Given the high price of an AK and the highly regulated process for obtaining automatic weapons, those AKs most likely came from other South American countries...
My guess is, even if weapons from the U.S.A. are illicitly ending up in Mexico, a large amount of illegal Mexican weaponry also comes from other sources.
I would tend to agree the lion's share is not coming from the U.S. I would suspect that things like shipment and legal issues would be less of a hassle from say, south america, cuba, europe? Plus trading product for arms is probably popular. From the pictures in the thread, that would take alot of 3 gun shopping trips.
I would tend to agree the lion's share is not coming from the U.S. I would suspect that things like shipment and legal issues would be less of a hassle from say, south america, cuba, europe?.
a hell of a lot cheaper, and you can get full auto. there's plenty of places in south America to snag some true military small arms from cartels and revolutionaries and the governments fighting them, columbia not least of which.
nope, i don't buy it. im sure a LOT of guns get bought in America and took back south, but im sure a "LOT" of guns is only supplimentary to the hoards of guns they get from the Mexican army and police.
nope, i don't buy it. im sure a LOT of guns get bought in America and took back south, but im sure a "LOT" of guns is only supplimentary to the hoards of guns they get from the Mexican army and police.
This is why the Mexicans won't give the ATF the serial numbers for the 300 guns they recovered from the cartel.
losbronces
03-18-09, 18:17
I would tend to agree the lion's share is not coming from the U.S. I would suspect that things like shipment and legal issues would be less of a hassle from say, south america, cuba, europe? Plus trading product for arms is probably popular. From the pictures in the thread, that would take alot of 3 gun shopping trips.
I agree that it is more likely that the majority of these weapons are not from the U.S. I still haven't seen anyone present statistics and most of the weapons in the photo are not available for legal purchase in the U.S.
However, Hugo Chavez (president and defacto dictator of Venezuela) has access to purchase all kinds of weapons and he has known links to the drug trade. He has purchased weapons now in use throughout Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia and Colombia (by the FARC at least in Colombia). Also, I think the drug lords can get guns from Central American millitaries (like maybe Guatemala might be the source of some of those M-16s). In my opinion, shutting off guns from the U.S. won't stop the drug lords from obtaining guns anymore than making drugs illegal has shut off access to those drugs in the U.S.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.