View Full Version : $1200 Max Home Protection
Ok, I have a budget of $1200 from the wife (finally)
I am looking for info/input on the best rifle/accesaries for a home defense AR rifle
but $1200 is the max I can spend
.Thanks in advace for all input.
SwatDawg15
03-19-09, 23:58
I would suggest a S&W M&P15 MOE. It comes with the Magpul Moe, stock, grip, handguards, and mbus (buis). The seem to be going for around 1200.
You really need to do alot of reading and figure what will fit your needs as well. Talk to Grant, he may can help you out.
On top of the price though you've got to factor in magazines, ammo, a light, etc.
Or are these things you can squeeze by the wife?
On top of the price though you've got to factor in magazines, ammo, a light, etc.
Or are these things you can squeeze by the wife?
I'm with this guy. The $1200 you remind, her was approved for the weapon and just like one might do with any good pair of shoes, you need to accessorize. ;)
Beware of the double-edged sword though if you find yourself and her in an "accessories war". She'll win.
BTW, I forgot to add the useful info:
People always talk bad on DPMS, but they are decent and you can a nice M4 set up for relatively cheap. might leave room for those add-ons.
BTW, I forgot to add the useful info:
People always talk bad on DPMS, but they are decent and you can a nice M4 set up for relatively cheap. might leave room for those add-ons.
OP,
Please search this forum for opinions and advice on buying "cheap" (DPMS, Olympic, ASA, etc). You've been smart enough to find this site, and fortunate enough to have sufficient funds for a good weapon. Yes, you will need more than just the carbine - you will need a sling (original strap will get you by for now), light, mags and ammo at a minimum - but the core, the foundation, is the rifle itself. Buy quality, and you will not have to regret, retool, and re-purchase a year from now, or whenever you climb the learning curve. It is always possible you will not be able to buy an AR, at anything like a reasonable price, a year from now. Very good advice is to be had here, if you will only heed it.
I think you have 2 options. A decent pistol and shotgun of your choice or you just buy the basics now . Get a decent AR with a couple of mags, maybe a light, and some ammo. Then next year you dress it up how you want it with the next installment of the the economic stimulus plan.
BTW, I forgot to add the useful info:
People always talk bad on DPMS, but they are decent and you can a nice M4 set up for relatively cheap. might leave room for those add-ons.
I do not know what "decent" means when defending my life.
C4
To the OP, I understand your budget and what you want to do. So here is my advice.
1. Find a quality used Colt, LMT, Noveske, Charles Daly, etc.
2. Or buy an LMT upper or BCM upper and a LMT lower (or buy a custom built lower).
3. Buy an MI #1 and install it into the FSB.
4. Buy a SureFire G2.
5. Buy a VLTOR G Series mount or the SF M79 mount and install it on the MI #1
6. Buy a Trijicon CP25F (Tritium front sight).
By my calculations, you can get all of the above for under or around $1,200
Any extra money, buy mags and ammo. Seek out trained people in the regional training group section of this site and get some experience with using the weapon.
C4
WTF is with all these DPMS-huggers around lately? It's getting disgusting.
I am looking for info/input on the best rifle/accesaries for a home defense AR rifle
Why do you want an AR to protect your home? I've always considered a pistol with low velocity rounds or a shotgun with bird shot better for protecting the house. If you have any neighbors every squeeze of the trigger on an AR can be a liability.
SwatDawg15
03-20-09, 09:03
WTF is with all these DPMS-huggers around lately? It's getting disgusting.
Yupp.
Its all the same type of people:
"I can get a DPMS for less and its just as good as the rest"
"I can buy a hi-point for less and its just as good as a glock"
"I can buy UTG/Leepers rails for $60 and they are just as good as DD"
"I can get natural lite and its just as good as miller light"
Oh and the famous line:
"Oh I'll just get the cheaper one right now, I don't see no sense in buying the original, real, more expensive one, if this one is just as good for a lower price"
Why do you want an AR to protect your home? I've always considered a pistol with low velocity rounds or a shotgun with bird shot better for protecting the house. If you have any neighbors every squeeze of the trigger on an AR can be a liability.
This would be incorrect thinking. Remember that a pistol is used to fight your way to a long gun. I would suggest that you do a little more research on ballistics and the .223.
Think about the fact that the majority of ALL SWAT teams in the US use an AR.
We are also not interested in "wounding or scaring" the intruder.
Dean men tell no tales. ;)
C4
Why do you want an AR to protect your home? I've always considered a pistol with low velocity rounds or a shotgun with bird shot better for protecting the house. If you have any neighbors every squeeze of the trigger on an AR can be a liability.
Actually, I think that an AR is the perfect HD weapon, and is even better if you have an SBR.
Low recoil and collapsible stock means anybody can use it, plus the low recoil makes it easier to stay on target for followup shots
Short weapon, even with a 16" bbl.
RDS easily mounted securely
Quick reloading
Has the range if you are fighting outside. Important consideration for me, as I live out in the country.
Actually, I think that an AR is the perfect HD weapon, and is even better if you have an SBR.
Correct.
C4
I'd say look for a Charles Daly Defense D-M4, it is set up with proper staking and ready to go. They should be able to be found for around $1,000 plus tax and background check, that will be near $1,100. Get 4 P-Mags for it to start, you can find them for around $15-$18 each. That takes you to your $1200 once you pay shipping.
Wait a paycheck or 3 and get yourself a Streamlight TLR-1 light and you can get an inexpensive front site side mount rail to put it on. That should total out at about $150 plus shipping.
Then, above and beyond your cost for hardware, you need to find ammo and spend some hours getting to know your new tool. Ammo is hard to find currently for just about everything.
This is my Charle Daly D-M4 with the light as I described. The light was crooked, I have since loosened the bolt and adjusted it to be parrallel to the barrel. Also, the scope is from another rifle, it was on there for short term playing. I keep a red dot on it.
http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp174/larry0071/Junk%20Repository/CharlesDalyD-M4-01.jpg
And if you haven't already discovered the following..........
There is "common" money in a relationship, and there is "individual" money - on BOTH sides. It sounds like the $1200 will come out of common money. The accessories will need to (slowly & carefully) come out of your "man money" account.
You can put together an LMT for about $1k ($480 for an upper, $130 for the bolt carrier group, $330 for a lower, $30 for handguards, $20 for charging handle). Add 4 Pmags for another $60 and a LaRue rear sight for $90, and shipping should bring that to about $1200.
Granted, this will be an exercise in patience, too. ;)
-B
Why do you want an AR to protect your home? I've always considered a pistol with low velocity rounds or a shotgun with bird shot better for protecting the house. If you have any neighbors every squeeze of the trigger on an AR can be a liability.
hahaha, good one! you almost had me.
hahahha...
hahaha, good one! you almost had me.
hahahha...
Didn't someone post that crap in the "Dumbest Things You have Heard in a Gun Store" Thread?
...keep your bird shot, I'll keep my AR.
Why do you want an AR to protect your home? I've always considered a pistol with low velocity rounds or a shotgun with bird shot better for protecting the house. If you have any neighbors every squeeze of the trigger on an AR can be a liability.
birdshot is for birds
meat&potatoes
03-20-09, 18:10
+ 1 Daly M4
This would be incorrect thinking. Remember that a pistol is used to fight your way to a long gun. I would suggest that you do a little more research on ballistics and the .223.
Think about the fact that the majority of ALL SWAT teams in the US use an AR.
We are also not interested in "wounding or scaring" the intruder.
Dean men tell no tales. ;)
C4
I think it depends on the internal demensions of the home/appartment. A hand gun is a defensive weapon that could be kept in a small under bed safe or in a night stand. A rifle is an offencive weapon. My home is very small including the size of the rooms ( my bed room is 9x9 plus furishings) . Imo a hand gun would be a lot easier to grab and confront an intruder that breaks in while I am a sleep especially if he/they got to my bed room before I heard them. I just dont see a lot of room to manuver with a rifle, plus with a hand gun I have a free hand if I choose for a light off to the side or for the phone. Just my HUMBLE opinion.
If you do choose an AR (you may allready have a hand gun) I agree with all that Grant says. My 1st AR was an LMT I purchased from Grant. I am not sorry:D It is a quality weapon the S&W I just got dosnt compare to the LMT.
Think about the fact that the majority of ALL SWAT teams in the US use an AR.
We are also not interested in "wounding or scaring" the intruder.
C4
Well, we're not talking about swat here. We're talking about home defense. If you are worried about taking the fight outside your house and into the streets you had better worry about some jail time as well. If the intruder is outside your house, getting the heck out of dodge, why would you want to gun him down in the street? This is not a scenario from the movies, this could be the real deal.
Over-penetration is a liability. If you are like the majority of Americans and live in an urban area and decide it is a good idea to use an M4 inside your house you are a fool. You will put your family and everyone near your house in danger because you will shoot through your walls. Half an inch of sheetrock, a little insulation and 7/16" plywood will not stop a high velocity round.
Aside from that, it is much easier to retain control of a pistol than an AR. You can keep your pistol tucked to your side with your hand out to fend off an intruder, while still being able to pump rounds into his gut if need be. Inside close quarters, when it is just you to defend yourself with no back-up it would be much easier for a perp to hide around a corner, wait for that muzzle to come around and get you tangle****ed up with your weapon. This is an easy scenario to imagine, especially if the perp has had any martial arts training that works on close-in fighting, like kenpo.
And I am interested in wounding and incompacitation. Anyone that would say they want to kill is a sociopath or a fool. Would you want to live with that on your conscious? Not an easy thing to do, no matter how justified.
Bird shot is for birds. Do you want to get shot with it? It would ruin your day.
Over-penetration is a liability. If you are like the majority of Americans and live in an urban area and decide it is a good idea to use an M4 inside your house you are a fool. You will put your family and everyone near your house in danger because you will shoot through your walls. Half an inch of sheetrock, a little insulation and 7/16" plywood will not stop a high velocity round.
You're pullin' our leg, right?
Cagemonkey
03-21-09, 09:32
Well, we're not talking about swat here. We're talking about home defense. If you are worried about taking the fight outside your house and into the streets you had better worry about some jail time as well. If the intruder is outside your house, getting the heck out of dodge, why would you want to gun him down in the street? This is not a scenario from the movies, this could be the real deal.
Over-penetration is a liability. If you are like the majority of Americans and live in an urban area and decide it is a good idea to use an M4 inside your house you are a fool. You will put your family and everyone near your house in danger because you will shoot through your walls. Half an inch of sheetrock, a little insulation and 7/16" plywood will not stop a high velocity round.
Aside from that, it is much easier to retain control of a pistol than an AR. You can keep your pistol tucked to your side with your hand out to fend off an intruder, while still being able to pump rounds into his gut if need be. Inside close quarters, when it is just you to defend yourself with no back-up it would be much easier for a perp to hide around a corner, wait for that muzzle to come around and get you tangle****ed up with your weapon. This is an easy scenario to imagine, especially if the perp has had any martial arts training that works on close-in fighting, like kenpo.
And I am interested in wounding and incompacitation. Anyone that would say they want to kill is a sociopath or a fool. Would you want to live with that on your conscious? Not an easy thing to do, no matter how justified.
Bird shot is for birds. Do you want to get shot with it? It would ruin your day. Considering bullet deformation/fragmentation and the amount of velocity lost from impact, I find the risk of over penetration being lethal being very low unless the bullet was a true AP round or heavier caliber. .223/5.56 is not known for its penetrating ability. I think over penetration is probably an urban myth in regards to .223/5.56.
I'll try to find the link to the videos that show 9mm, 45, buck etc just cutting through 4-5simulated walls (drywall on both sides, 2x4's etc) and where the .223 effective stops going after the second wall.
Considering bullet deformation/fragmentation and the amount of velocity lost from impact, I find the risk of over penetration being lethal being very low unless the bullet was a true AP round or heavy caliber, for example, .50 Cal or greater. I think over penetration is probably an urban myth.
I dont know what kind of castles (thick stone walls) you guys live in, but is very probable that a 5.56 round fired in your average plywood home would go through at least one wall or possible out of the home itself.. I live in a large city and at least a few times a year you read about a handgun round fired outside that misses its intended drug dealer and goes through the wall or door of a home and wounds or worse yet kills an inocent bystander while they are in there own home. You also read about houses with bullet holes in the country from a hunters wayward round and the nearest woods is a half mile away. I think Panzerr is also dead on about taking the fight outside of the home, you will likely end up in jail in most jurisdictions for that.
Dan Goodwin
03-21-09, 10:19
A mean person began shooting at me one day out the window of a mobile home, exposing only his face and the thing making orange flashes.
Finding this disconcerting, I fired one shot at him from 20 yards with a Glock 35 loaded with Remington GS 180s. It clipped the center frame portion of the window, blew glass into his face, missed his melon by an inch or 6, sailed through a closet full of clothes, the closet wall and zipped across the next room and lodged in the far wall of the trailer.
Our tactical team recently switched from MP5/40s to 6933s for better performance in such scenarios and reduced risk of overpenetration with handgun projectiles.
Over-penetration is a liability. If you are like the majority of Americans and live in an urban area and decide it is a good idea to use an M4 inside your house you are a fool. You will put your family and everyone near your house in danger because you will shoot through your walls. Half an inch of sheetrock, a little insulation and 7/16" plywood will not stop a high velocity round.
And I am interested in wounding and incompacitation. Anyone that would say they want to kill is a sociopath or a fool. Would you want to live with that on your conscious? Not an easy thing to do, no matter how justified.
Bird shot is for birds. Do you want to get shot with it? It would ruin your day.
I don't want to get shot with a BB gun either, which has the potential to ruin my day as well. That doesn't mean it is the best choice for HD.
Two sheets of sheetrock and a tool box, will stop an AP round at muzzle velocity.
The studies have been done, by the FBI no less, 5.56 in general will penetrate less building material then most service caliber handguns. I believe LE departments can request the info.
In my use of force training, we are taught to shoot to stop the action, that is all. Unfortunately that usually means kill, especially with a well trained, motivated adversary. Or some crackhead lookin for a fix...
I did not see where anyone advocated shooting anyone in the back, only taking the fight where it needs to go. HD can encompass many things to include civil unrest as in the aftermath of the King decision and Katrina.
I know the OP was looking for an AR, but depending on how much that 1200 is, what you already have, etc.
I would not be opposed to a G19 about 10 mags, holster, mag pouch, belt, a lot of ammo, and a LAV pistol class.
Bob
I think it depends on the internal demensions of the home/appartment. A hand gun is a defensive weapon that could be kept in a small under bed safe or in a night stand. A rifle is an offencive weapon.
There are some instances where corners are tight and a pistol would come into its own.
Since the bad guy is MY HOME, I am on the offensive! ;)
In all honesty, if someone breaks into your home, you should be in your safe room (bedroom), dialing 911, blocking the door and pointing the AR at the door (no need to be searching the house for them).
My home is very small including the size of the rooms ( my bed room is 9x9 plus furishings) . Imo a hand gun would be a lot easier to grab and confront an intruder that breaks in while I am a sleep especially if he/they got to my bed room before I heard them. I just dont see a lot of room to manuver with a rifle, plus with a hand gun I have a free hand if I choose for a light off to the side or for the phone. Just my HUMBLE opinion.
You can keep a HG right next to you. You can also keep a long gun under the bed or in the closet. You use the HG to get to the long gun.
C4
Well, we're not talking about swat here. We're talking about home defense. If you are worried about taking the fight outside your house and into the streets you had better worry about some jail time as well. If the intruder is outside your house, getting the heck out of dodge, why would you want to gun him down in the street? This is not a scenario from the movies, this could be the real deal.
Interesting. Can you tell me what the difference is with a SWAT team killing a guy in your home and you doing it???
If the guy has a gun on my property and is shooting at me, I can defensd myself (always better to be judged by 12). If the person is leaving (and not shooting at me), I will not engage him.
I have no idea why you assumed I would have a gun fight in the street. I made no mention of it.
Over-penetration is a liability.
Sure is! This is why you should stay away from pistol ammo and a lot of shotgun ammo! ;)
If you are like the majority of Americans and live in an urban area and decide it is a good idea to use an M4 inside your house you are a fool. You will put your family and everyone near your house in danger because you will shoot through your walls. Half an inch of sheetrock, a little insulation and 7/16" plywood will not stop a high velocity round.
Negative. Do some ballistics reading (we have a forum just for that on here). You are VERY un-educated about what high velocity bullets (like the .223) do when they hit a wall.
Aside from that, it is much easier to retain control of a pistol than an AR.
You can keep your pistol tucked to your side with your hand out to fend off an intruder, while still being able to pump rounds into his gut if need be. Inside close quarters, when it is just you to defend yourself with no back-up it would be much easier for a perp to hide around a corner, wait for that muzzle to come around and get you tangle****ed up with your weapon. This is an easy scenario to imagine, especially if the perp has had any martial arts training that works on close-in fighting, like kenpo.
I have really no idea why you think any of this. Have you ever been through any CQB shooting schools???
I have had quite a bit. The first thing I realized when I went through my first one is to NEVER go looking through your house for a bad guy! This is a LAST resort kind of thing. Get your ass in your safe room, block the door and call 911 and point weapon at the door.
And I am interested in wounding and incompacitation. Anyone that would say they want to kill is a sociopath or a fool. Would you want to live with that on your conscious? Not an easy thing to do, no matter how justified.
Bird shot is for birds. Do you want to get shot with it? It would ruin your day.
No problems killing a bad guy. I am putting an end to them EVER hurting someone else again.
Sure. You shoot me with bird shot and I will shoot you with a 75gr TAP. Want to bet who loses that fight??
C4
You're pullin' our leg, right?
I am afraid he is not. He seems to forget that the people MOST concerned about killing innocent people (and litigation) are Police SWAT teams. This is why they use AR's chambered in .223.
C4
Since people are having such are hard time understanding what a .223 does (and how much it penetrates), here are some pics.
Take careful note that the parts of the .223 bullet that are at the 13" inch mark are fragmented! This means that the bullet is FAR less likely to kill anyone (compared to a full/complete bullet out of a handgun).
C4
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/556_68_762_comparison.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg
As you so eloquently pointed out, I'm completely uneducated. You win this pissing match. I'm not going to argue my points with someone that "has been to a class."
As you so eloquently pointed out, I'm completely uneducated. You win this pissing match. I'm not going to argue my points with someone that "has been to a class."
I've done my share of projectile recovery & shooting reconstruction at real-world shootings. This includes dozens of fatal/non-fatal shootings at residential, multi-dwelling structures and motor vehicles involving pistol and rifle calibers. Grant is correct. Pistol caliber ammunition can (over)penetrate significantly further in human tissue and obstacles/barriers (plywood, 2X4s, drywall, doors, glass, sheetmetal, etc) compared to high velocity .223/556 caliber HP loads. Pistol caliber FMJ are notorious for pissing through multiple walls, and the HP cavity of pistol caliber HP projectiles can and often do get clogged with foreign material (drywall and wood fibers are extremely effective) which prevents them from expanding, causing overpenetration similar to FMJ loads. High velocity .223/556 HP ammunition consistently fragments upon contact with common barriers and within soft tissue. Even .223/556 FMJ and SP (not SS109 or steel jacketed ammo) consistently fragments at high velocities.
I've seen it first-hand time after time in the real world. Feel free to PM me for my CV.
As you so eloquently pointed out, I'm completely uneducated. You win this pissing match. I'm not going to argue my points with someone that "has been to a class."
Oh, I have more than "A class."
Please try & argue your pov. Myself & MANY others would love you try and tell us why birdshot or handgun ammo is better than the .223 (especially after the pics I posted).
C4
Smuckatelli
03-21-09, 20:13
And I am interested in wounding and incompacitation. Anyone that would say they want to kill is a sociopath or a fool.
If you are interested in wounding you shouldn't be using a gun. Everytime that you pull that trigger it should be center mass.
You may want to invest in a non lethal weapon.
I'm not a shotgun guy. I don't have one, and I don't want one.
For the OP, though, a shotgun is a good choice.
I just got my little sister and her fiancé an 8-shot Mossberg 500 for $250. With DROS and sales tax, it was under $300 out the door.
Even with a couple hundred rounds of buckshot, some accessories (sling, sights, shell carriers, etc.), and a case, the OP could be out the door for half his budget (or buy a Glock and several hundred rounds of ammo for it).
On the other hand, as everybody has pointed out, it's just about impossible to set up a high-quality AR for $1,200.
That's just my 2˘,
Bimmer
And I am interested in wounding and incompacitation. Anyone that would say they want to kill is a sociopath or a fool. Would you want to live with that on your conscious? Not an easy thing to do, no matter how justified.
Bird shot is for birds. Do you want to get shot with it? It would ruin your day.
If you are using a gun, that means your life is threatened, they probably have a weapon. If you wound them, are they too wounded to use the weapon or did you get them "just enough." That wouldn't be a gamble I would want to take. There are alot of highly knowledgeable people in this thread and I would take their advice
Sure. You shoot me with bird shot and I will shoot you with a 75gr TAP. Want to bet who loses that fight??
now that is funny.
Smuckatelli
03-21-09, 21:50
To the OP, I understand your budget and what you want to do. So here is my advice.
1. Find a quality used Colt, LMT, Noveske, Charles Daly, etc.
2. Or buy an LMT upper or BCM upper and a LMT lower (or buy a custom built lower).
3. Buy an MI #1 and install it into the FSB.
4. Buy a SureFire G2.
5. Buy a VLTOR G Series mount or the SF M79 mount and install it on the MI #1
6. Buy a Trijicon CP25F (Tritium front sight).
By my calculations, you can get all of the above for under or around $1,200
Any extra money, buy mags and ammo. Seek out trained people in the regional training group section of this site and get some experience with using the weapon.
C4
Attempting to get this back on track.......
Do you have links to places where these parts can be purchased?
randyman_ar
03-21-09, 22:17
Attempting to get this back on track.......
Do you have links to places where these parts can be purchased?
www.GRTactical.com
I don't know about the used rifles but I believe Grant can fix you up with the rest. I got my CD M4LE from him, excellent service, very knowledgeable and helpful.
randyman_ar
03-21-09, 22:22
As you so eloquently pointed out, I'm completely uneducated. You win this pissing match. I'm not going to argue my points with someone that "has been to a class."
Shhhhhhhhhhhh! How does that go.....its better to be quite and thought a fool than to .............well you probably know the rest.
Patrick Henry
03-21-09, 22:35
Like others have said, get your core rifle first with the $1200. Then get a couple of Pmags and some ammo. The very next item to get is a light.
If you can, try to get a rifle with a ff rail handguard already installed. That way you don't have to buy tools along with everything else on your limited budget.
As for the light, I'd recommend getting a Surefire G2 and then change the head on it to a Cree LED. That thing will be ultra-bright and you can have less than $50 invested in it.
Good luck, and don't forget to give your wife a hug after you get the rifle. She's obviously a good woman.
Buy a big black dog and a pallet of dog food! That is also a great deterent to bad guys coming into the house! I have 80 lbs of slobber that sleeps inside the front door.
He may not look like much of a tough-guy in this particular setting.... but be a stranger on our property and see what he turns into. You will not be getting out of your car until we come remove him from your way, and you can feel your internal organs vibrate when he barks at you through the door. Most vistiters we get won't go near him. Gas companies won't come unless we are here (They call), no one really seems to want to challange his bark to see what the bite may be like.
http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp174/larry0071/Jan%202009%20Gun%20Stuff/T-Rex/11f06931.jpg
Myself & MANY others would love you try and tell us why birdshot or handgun ammo is better than the .223 (especially after the pics I posted).
C4
As I've seen in the past, I've sure there are plenty of people here that would LOVE to jump on someone that has an opinion that differs from you or a few other prominent posters, overlooking the validity of some points just to get a few jabs in.
As per the original conversation, I don't buy into the AR being the best home defense platform. It has more to do with weapon retention while maneuvering inside confined spaces than with ballistics.
A pistol is much easier to keep readily accessible in your bedroom. I have a gunvault on my nightstand which keeps my pistol safe from kids and in a convenient place for me to get to it in the night if I were to need it.
If I heard some screams coming from a room in my house and the sounds of a scuffle, I wouldn't go for your 'safe room' as you learned in your class. I would keep my pistol close to my side, muzzle forward and my reaction hand at the ready to fend off someone that tried to surprise and grapple me while I maneuvered through the house. With my reaction hand ready to block and a pistol in my firing hand, I could still execute blocks and strikes with the pistol if need be.
The worst thing that could happen in a scenario like this is loosing control of my firearm (being that I would be alone) and it would be more difficult to keep positive control of an AR than a pistol as both hands would be tied up with the weapon, not to mention the size of the AR makes it a larger target for an assailant.
Your ballistics gelatin photos are neat, don't get me wrong, but walls are not made of ballistics gelatin. They are build of sheetrock, screws, nails, studs, plywood, tyvek, insulation, electrical wires and some sort of siding. I've seen many round nose 45 ACP pistol rounds fired at 800 fps get lodged in 3.5 inches of wood. If you were to drop the velocity to 600 fps (or as low as it will go while still cycling the action) and use non jacketed round you would seriously reduce the possibility of over-penetration. A 5.56 mm round would zip through a stud wall, and while it may fragment, those fragments are still traveling upwards of 1000 fps or more. That can still kill. I would need to see a real test setup with people shooting through stud walls before I would be convinced that a rifle round is indeed safer than a pistol round firing through a wall. And even then I would still use a pistol for home defense -again because if you loose control of that weapon you and your family are dead and it is easier to maintain positive control of a pistol.
Before someone else chimes in with another brilliant jab at birdshot think of this: can you continue a fight without eyes? My karate instructor of several years reiterates this point from time to time -if you are ever assailed by a larger opponent, take out his eyes. One cannot fight without eyes. If you use birdshot and fire high center mass, you are going to **** someone up -possibly blinding them. That WILL stop them.
the1911fan
03-22-09, 10:43
As you so eloquently pointed out, I'm completely uneducated. You win this pissing match. I'm not going to argue my points with someone that "has been to a class."
Congratulations!! First thing you've been correct on in the entire thread
.
A tragic waste of precious electrons.
.
SwatDawg15
03-22-09, 11:36
As you so eloquently pointed out, I'm completely uneducated. You win this pissing match. I'm not going to argue my points with someone that "has been to a class."
So I guess all our knowledge we gained from hours, on hours of real world training don't mean anything to a know-it-all uneducated fool. Yes I called you a fool. You are very foolish is your quest to defend your home and family, and you are doing them a great injustice by your hard-headiness.
You fail to realize that most of your home invaders are hoped up on some type of CNS stimulant. These same type of people I have fought hand to hand on the street. I have also see these type of people take round after round of pistol ammo and still be fighting. I have seen a guy rip freaking taser leads out of himself. I wish you could be with me when we deal with these people, so you could see what we are all trying to tell you. bird shot will do nothing but piss him off, and in the time it takes you to aim for his "eyes", he will be right on top of you.
There is tons of knowledge here that you could learn from if you would just shudup and read it. Stop thinking you know it all, and we just know what we "learned in a class" I would like to know what your training level is, and if you have any real world experience in this matter. That is since the rest of us are wrong and your right :rolleyes:
CaptainDooley
03-22-09, 11:41
First of all, if what you are fighting for is important enough (or you're high enough), blinding is not going to end the fight. If my little girl were still in danger, I would bit and claw if need be, whether I could see or not. Birdshot is insufficient to penetrate more than a couple layers of sheet rock, it certainly will not penetrate 12" of flesh and bone - the depth needed to reach vital organs and/or the CNS... Which is what is needed to stop a determined/doped up assailant. I will not gamble the lives of my child or pregnant wife because I'm worried about liability.
On top of that, there are some really smart people on this forum that know a lot more about ballastics than you or I... The smart thing to do would be to shut your pie hole, be humble enough to know what you don't know, and listen.
Yes I called you a fool.
Go ahead, call me a fool. You are safe behind your computer screen. You don't know a damn thing about me so your berating is invalid. Not to mention that you are ignoring my main point -that it is easier to maintain control on an pistol rather than an AR. And I for one would rather keep control of my weapon system to bring to bear on a perp rather than have him get me all tangle****ed with it.
Some of you a proving a point I made earlier. That is, if you don't agree with someone who went to a 'class' or someone that spends so much time posting here they've amassed a huge post count your opinion is to be tossed aside because no moderator will go against them, so it's okay to flame.
Buy a big black dog and a pallet of dog food! That is also a great deterent to bad guys coming into the house! I have 80 lbs of slobber that sleeps inside the front door.
Have you seen the price of dog food lately? You would think there was pending legislation on a venison kibble ban. The food we feed has had 2 significant price hikes in the past 6 months totaling about 35%. Soon 5.56 will be cheaper.
Smuckatelli
03-22-09, 12:54
Ya know, for as much as we collectively have a love fest about M4Carbine.net over all the other forums.......
I see someone post here about having $1200.00 USD to purchase one and most of the thread turns into a tactical chest pounding I love myself, been there done that.
Nothing to do with the guy wanting to get an AR.
So, do we help him or do we continue to talk about t-shirts?
CaptainDooley
03-22-09, 13:05
I'll help him out... I'm putting together an AR from a completed LMT or BCM upper, an LMT or BCM BCG, and then grabbing a lower and LPK... I'm looking at around $900 and lots of patiently waiting (for the parts to be in stock).
Go ahead, call me a fool. You are safe behind your computer screen. You don't know a damn thing about me so your berating is invalid. Not to mention that you are ignoring my main point -that it is easier to maintain control on an pistol rather than an AR. And I for one would rather keep control of my weapon system to bring to bear on a perp rather than have him get me all tangle****ed with it.
Some of you a proving a point I made earlier. That is, if you don't agree with someone who went to a 'class' or someone that spends so much time posting here they've amassed a huge post count your opinion is to be tossed aside because no moderator will go against them, so it's okay to flame.
Nobody's 'flaming' you over your post-count. You are not engaged in a disagreement over things subjective, or that are a matter of opinion. You are wrong. Grant and those agreeing with him are right. It has nothing to do with your M4C popularity index or post-count.
Now if you want to backpeddle to the assertion that it's easier to maintain control of a pistol than an AR - well,OK, that is arguable. The rest of your points have been horseshit.
Attempting to get this back on track.......
Do you have links to places where these parts can be purchased?
We sell them all and the majority of the items are instock, but the BCM and LMT items are VERY to get and you basically just need to get your name in with several dealers.
C4
As I've seen in the past, I've sure there are plenty of people here that would LOVE to jump on someone that has an opinion that differs from you or a few other prominent posters, overlooking the validity of some points just to get a few jabs in.
I am not looking to get a "few jabs in." I am looking to make sure that people are not mis-informed. You see, there is so much BAD info about weapons, gear and training out there that many have dubbed the internet as the "errornet."
As per the original conversation, I don't buy into the AR being the best home defense platform. It has more to do with weapon retention while maneuvering inside confined spaces than with ballistics.
The AR might not be the best HD weapon for you or someone else. People often times ask me what IS the best option and I ask them which gun do they shoot the most with. So if it is a SG, then I tell them to go with that. If it is a pistol, then that is their best choice.
The weapon that they practice the MOST with is actually the best one for the job IMHO as they know it the best. Too many times people pick a gun that they have very little trigger time on (like a shotgun).
Searching your home is really a bad idea all the way around (especially alone). You simply do NOT have the advantage. I fully understand that you sometimes HAVE to do it, but it is still the last resort IMHO.
Most people do not have the SLIGHTEST clue about how to clear a house (properly). They have even LESS of a clue on how to do it in the dark (which it is generally going to be).
A pistol is much easier to keep readily accessible in your bedroom. I have a gunvault on my nightstand which keeps my pistol safe from kids and in a convenient place for me to get to it in the night if I were to need it.
Depends on how you have things setup. I understand that you can put a pistol on the night stand. After you have grabbed the pistol, you walk to the closet and put the long gun out (two is one and one is none).
You can keep the AR unloaded in the closet and put the mag in the gunvault along with your pistol. If all your ammo (in the home) is secure, then the AR is nothing more than a paper weight to little kids.
If I heard some screams coming from a room in my house and the sounds of a scuffle, I wouldn't go for your 'safe room' as you learned in your class.
Actually you are mistaken as too what I have learned. The instructors have NEVER taught me to go to my "safe room." They have taught me how to fight room to room in the dark of night. ;) The safe room concept is simply common sense and of course if you have to go out of that room, you want to have the advantage.
I think your problem might be that you are reading too much into what I am saying (like thinking that because I have an AR, I am going to chase someone down the street). You would be much better off not putting words in my mouth.
I would keep my pistol close to my side, muzzle forward and my reaction hand at the ready to fend off someone that tried to surprise and grapple me while I maneuvered through the house. With my reaction hand ready to block and a pistol in my firing hand, I could still execute blocks and strikes with the pistol if need be.
So you have one hand on the pistol and one hand off. Uhm, ok. I think you are much better off in position one or a high ready if you are looking for a fight. Can you tell me which instructor teaches you to clear a home with only one hand on the weapon? I just want to know so that I never accidentially take one of their classes.
The worst thing that could happen in a scenario like this is loosing control of my firearm (being that I would be alone) and it would be more difficult to keep positive control of an AR than a pistol as both hands would be tied up with the weapon, not to mention the size of the AR makes it a larger target for an assailant.
I thought you only had one hand on the pistol? Now I am confused?? :confused:
Your ballistics gelatin photos are neat, don't get me wrong, but walls are not made of ballistics gelatin.
The pics are not mine (sorry). They are from the ballistics forum right on M4C (who knew)! Your are right about gelatin not being walls. What do you think happens when the .223 bullet makes contact with something harder than gelatin? How many more people would you like to post on here (that do this type of stuff for a living) to tell you that your concepts are incorrect (or do you just not read their replies)???
They are build of sheetrock, screws, nails, studs, plywood, tyvek, insulation, electrical wires and some sort of siding. I've seen many round nose 45 ACP pistol rounds fired at 800 fps get lodged in 3.5 inches of wood. If you were to drop the velocity to 600 fps (or as low as it will go while still cycling the action) and use non jacketed round you would seriously reduce the possibility of over-penetration. A 5.56 mm round would zip through a stud wall, and while it may fragment, those fragments are still traveling upwards of 1000 fps or more. That can still kill. I would need to see a real test setup with people shooting through stud walls before I would be convinced that a rifle round is indeed safer than a pistol round firing through a wall. And even then I would still use a pistol for home defense -again because if you loose control of that weapon you and your family are dead and it is easier to maintain positive control of a pistol.
Hmm round nose ball ammo and unjacketed ball ammo. Why don't SWAT teams (which are overly concerned about killing innocent people) use that type of ammo?? Do you know something that they do not?
Before someone else chimes in with another brilliant jab at birdshot think of this: can you continue a fight without eyes? My karate instructor of several years reiterates this point from time to time -if you are ever assailed by a larger opponent, take out his eyes. One cannot fight without eyes. If you use birdshot and fire high center mass, you are going to **** someone up -possibly blinding them. That WILL stop them.
Birdshot, right. I think I will pass on this idea (again).
C4
Some of you a proving a point I made earlier. That is, if you don't agree with someone who went to a 'class' or someone that spends so much time posting here they've amassed a huge post count your opinion is to be tossed aside because no moderator will go against them, so it's okay to flame.
I'm not sure if you're trolling or being serious, but giving the benefit of the doubt I'll assume the latter.
You seem disdainful of people who have been to a 'class' as you put it. Would you agree that people with training and direct experience usually have more valid information than those without?
You're making a number of assumptions about terminal ballistics. Those assumptions are simply wrong. It doesn't make you a fool just because you reached the wrong conclusion. After all, for decades the conventional wisdom was identical to your assumption, that 5.56/.223 was more penetrative against typical indoor building materials than handgun projectiles.
However, that assumption has been disproven. Not theoretically, but in repeated scientific testing. Many of the people who are tying to impress that point upon you have seen such tests first hand, trained with people who've conducted such tests personally, etc.
Whether or not the AR/M4/5.56mm-carbine is the best choice for home defense, the ballistic argument has been dead for more than a decade.
Go ahead, call me a fool. You are safe behind your computer screen. You don't know a damn thing about me so your berating is invalid. Not to mention that you are ignoring my main point -that it is easier to maintain control on an pistol rather than an AR. And I for one would rather keep control of my weapon system to bring to bear on a perp rather than have him get me all tangle****ed with it.
Some of you a proving a point I made earlier. That is, if you don't agree with someone who went to a 'class' or someone that spends so much time posting here they've amassed a huge post count your opinion is to be tossed aside because no moderator will go against them, so it's okay to flame.
Let's make it easy. What is your background in regards to training and your full time job? Are you a Cop? Military? Civy? How did you come to your conclusions that you did? Have you shot at someone, missed and killed someone in another room with an AR? Have you PERSONALLY witnessed such a thing and is why you want to use bird shot to "wound" the instruder??? These are the ONLY two reasons I can really think of for someone to have in order to make your argument.
Some of the MOST knowledgeable people on the forum have less than 100 posts. This is not barfcom and post count means NOTHING on here (like it does there).
You are entitled to your opinion, but when people actually do this type of thing for a living or train for it, and tell you that you are wrong, you need to back up what you say with experience or first hand knowledge.
C4
Grant, panzerr's comment about one hand vs two hands was that with the AR both of your hands are on the weapon, and with the pistol (as he describes, not as I believe is correct or intelligent) you only have one hand on the weapon.
This is still a six-shades-of-retarded argument. Good personal defense loads in .223 and 5.56 penetrate less than most service pistol calibers and shotgun loads. You have more ammunition for the more aggressive and/or doped up threats to yourself and your family. Your skill level and the layout of your house might preclude certain weapons, granted (one part of my house would be damn near impossible to navigate with a rifle, though in full disclosure I do say this without any CQB training).
Birdshot will not reliably stop threats. It's been used enough in the real world for me to draw that conclusion based on its use, not its on-paper ballistics or theoretical pros/cons. Not that any of this should matter, because panzerr's arguments concerning the AR are the same arguments that would invalidate a shotgun for use in home defense.
-B
Grant, panzerr's comment about one hand vs two hands was that with the AR both of your hands are on the weapon, and with the pistol (as he describes, not as I believe is correct or intelligent) you only have one hand on the weapon.
The AR has a sling. It is attached to me and at ANY time, I can let go of it and punch someone in the mouth.
If I let go of the pistol, it falls to the ground (or the bad guy gets it).
I am a FIRM believer that if you have to fight it out in your home, you SHOULD have the advantage. This means superior fire power. If the bad guy has a pistol and I have a pistol, that it is a fair fight.
I am not interested in a fair fight.
C4
You'll find no disagreement from me, and lack of training is the only reason my own AR is not my primary home defense tool. I just wanted to clarify panzerr's reasoning.
-B
As I've seen in the past, I've sure there are plenty of people here that would LOVE to jump on someone that has an opinion that differs from you or a few other prominent posters, overlooking the validity of some points just to get a few jabs in.
Many of those prominent posters are Subject Matter Experts, and do this for a living.
As per the original conversation, I don't buy into the AR being the best home defense platform. It has more to do with weapon retention while maneuvering inside confined spaces than with ballistics.
Have you been trained in proper weapon retention techniques? Have you been trained in the proper handling of a long gun in a CQB environment?
A pistol is much easier to keep readily accessible in your bedroom. I have a gunvault on my nightstand which keeps my pistol safe from kids and in a convenient place for me to get to it in the night if I were to need it.
If I heard some screams coming from a room in my house and the sounds of a scuffle, I wouldn't go for your 'safe room' as you learned in your class. I would keep my pistol close to my side, muzzle forward and my reaction hand at the ready to fend off someone that tried to surprise and grapple me while I maneuvered through the house. With my reaction hand ready to block and a pistol in my firing hand, I could still execute blocks and strikes with the pistol if need be.
So now you only have one hand on the pistol?
The worst thing that could happen in a scenario like this is loosing control of my firearm (being that I would be alone) and it would be more difficult to keep positive control of an AR than a pistol as both hands would be tied up with the weapon, not to mention the size of the AR makes it a larger target for an assailant.
Proper technique will minimize your adversaries ability to make a gun grab, or be successful if he does attempt it.
Your ballistics gelatin photos are neat, don't get me wrong, but walls are not made of ballistics gelatin. They are build of sheetrock, screws, nails, studs, plywood, tyvek, insulation, electrical wires and some sort of siding. I've seen many round nose 45 ACP pistol rounds fired at 800 fps get lodged in 3.5 inches of wood. If you were to drop the velocity to 600 fps (or as low as it will go while still cycling the action) and use non jacketed round you would seriously reduce the possibility of over-penetration. A 5.56 mm round would zip through a stud wall, and while it may fragment, those fragments are still traveling upwards of 1000 fps or more. That can still kill. I would need to see a real test setup with people shooting through stud walls before I would be convinced that a rifle round is indeed safer than a pistol round firing through a wall. And even then I would still use a pistol for home defense -again because if you loose control of that weapon you and your family are dead and it is easier to maintain positive control of a pistol.
As mentioned earlier, a real test has been conducted, and multiple supporting ones. If you are LE a call to the FBI firearms training unit will get you all the info you need. If you are not, professional sites such as this one and 10-8 graciously share that kind of info with un-sworn individuals. The info is out there, all you have to do is look.
Anecdotally, why do you suppose just about every SWAT team in the country, starting with the most active, have switched to the AR type carbine, in favor of the pistol calibre SMG?
Before someone else chimes in with another brilliant jab at birdshot think of this: can you continue a fight without eyes? My karate instructor of several years reiterates this point from time to time -if you are ever assailed by a larger opponent, take out his eyes. One cannot fight without eyes. If you use birdshot and fire high center mass, you are going to **** someone up -possibly blinding them. That WILL stop them.
How can you be certain of what "WILL stop them" ? Do you have a crystal ball? No one is certain of anything in a gunfight. The best most of us can do, is make informed decisions, and seek training to stack the odds in our favor, and hope we make less mistakes then the bad guy.
It has been shown again and again, that "birdshot" is insufficient, while it may work, the odds are greater if you employ buck or slugs.
have you ever executed a failure drill or high percentage shot/hostage rescue shot? At night, on the move, under stress? Deliberately targeting the eyes may sound like a good idea, but if you have done the above, you will know it is difficult at best. The spread of shot, even Bird shot, it is not so much at CQB distance as to alleviate the need to deliberately aim the shotgun.
There are many reasons I prefer an AR or pistol to shotgun, none of them are those that you outline.
Since you seem to think we are all lackeys for the few high post count guys on this forum, perhaps you can enlighten us with your specific training and credentials in the area of home defense, wound ballistics, cqb, etc.
Bob
This thread turned into a one man pissing contest. I doubt any further information provided will get panzerr to reconsider his opinions.
To panzerr: FACTS would help your case, if you have them.
After some research on the 5.56 vs. handgun I was surprized at the results. I learned somthing new .When I posted earlier I was basing my thoughts on rifle penetration in a building on larger calibers such as 30 06, 8x57, ect. Some based on target shooting myself, some based on an old army training vidieo with the 06 shooting through trees ect.
My karate instructor, Dwayne FYI, taught me to shoot "high center mass with bird shot to blind" as well.......... strange.
1BadBushmaster
03-22-09, 17:30
I would suggest a S&W M&P15 MOE. It comes with the Magpul Moe, stock, grip, handguards, and mbus (buis). The seem to be going for around 1200.
You really need to do alot of reading and figure what will fit your needs as well. Talk to Grant, he may can help you out.
Yeah the S&W and Bushmaster's are a great choice. And you can get them realitivly cheap.
kaiservontexas
03-22-09, 18:13
I utilize a shotgun (870 12 gauge Police) and a handgun (.357MAG snubby). The shotgun is loaded with 00 buckshot. The snubby is loaded with HP ammunition. This is just my preference. *shrugs*
As for utilizing a AR-15 or anything else, I say good. The Heller case held an opinion that common firearms popular for the purpose.
I am also a big believer in using what one is most comfortable with because stress is going to make things mighty uncomfortable.
I'll help him out... I'm putting together an AR from a completed LMT or BCM upper, an LMT or BCM BCG, and then grabbing a lower and LPK... I'm looking at around $900 and lots of patiently waiting (for the parts to be in stock).
Back on topic...
If his budget is $1,200, then $900 for the rifle alone is too much.
If it were me, I'd budget 500 rounds of practice ammo ($200 at today's prices) as a minimum to build familiarity with the weapon. Then there are the magazines, the sling, the case, the SHTF ammo (100 rounds at about $1/round), and pretty quickly you're way over budget.
Regarding the AR vs. shotgun issue, where's a moderator when we need one?!
Ben
EzGoingKev
03-22-09, 18:33
You can keep the AR unloaded in the closet and put the mag in the gunvault along with your pistol. If all your ammo (in the home) is secure, then the AR is nothing more than a paper weight to little kids.
C4
I disagree with your advice of leaving a firearm, especially an AR, unsecured in a closet. While the AR might only be a paper weight to the kids, it would be a different story to a thief breaking into your house while no one was home they would leave with an assault rifle. Some might disagree, but I am firm believer in having weapons properly secured. My own personal preference is locked in a safe so no one can get their hands on it.
My karate instructor, Dwayne FYI, taught me to shoot "high center mass with bird shot to blind" as well.......... strange.
That is not what he said. If you are going to quote someone in order to undermine their credibility then please do not alter their statement.
Mr Panzerr's correct statement was -
"Before someone else chimes in with another brilliant jab at birdshot think of this: can you continue a fight without eyes? My karate instructor of several years reiterates this point from time to time -if you are ever assailed by a larger opponent, take out his eyes. One cannot fight without eyes. If you use birdshot and fire high center mass, you are going to **** someone up -possibly blinding them. That WILL stop them."
No idea where the name Dwayne came into this.
Regarding the original posters topic, there is no magic answer for this. My opinion, mostly based on the budget stated, would be to get a pistol. $1200 will get you a rifle, accessories, and some ammo. $1200 also buys you a pistol, accessories, LARGE amount of ammo so you can practice. I feel you are going to do better with something that you have put a lot of rounds through than something you have fired on a couple of occasions.
I do feel that the pistol's smaller size and weight make it easier to manage when going room to room. Also, you can conceal the pistol and take it with you much easier than an M4. This expands its arena for protection.
Also, some people are going to feel more comfortable with a pistol vs a rifle. Is this something the OP is going to use exclusively or is his significant other going to use it also? Most women are going to feel more comfortable with a pistol vs a rifle/shotgun. One thing I learned when dealing with various people is that just because something works great for you doesn't mean they will get the same result.
I disagree with your advice of leaving a firearm, especially an AR, unsecured in a closet. While the AR might only be a paper weight to the kids, it would be a different story to a thief breaking into your house while no one was home they would leave with an assault rifle. Some might disagree, but I am firm believer in having weapons properly secured. My own personal preference is locked in a safe so no one can get their hands on it
Sure, I have no issue with that. You can put the weapon in the safe & pull it out at night or simply hide it in your home.
C4
the1911fan
03-22-09, 19:02
I disagree with your advice of leaving a firearm, especially an AR, unsecured in a closet. While the AR might only be a paper weight to the kids, it would be a different story to a thief breaking into your house while no one was home they would leave with an assault rifle. Some might disagree, but I am firm believer in having weapons properly secured. My own personal preference is locked in a safe so no one can get their hands on it.
.
I know Grant a little bit, I know he does'nt advocate leaving unloaded firearms unsecured in a closet when the house is unoccupied. The question involved readiness if your home is being attacked and you are at home at the time.
The guy is a professional firearms dealer for crying out loud.
It is becoming painfully obvious of why I have been away from forums for sometime..and this is one of the best
Wow,I did not think I would get this much of a response.Thanks for all of the useful information it was way more than I expected.and the entertainment too.
I should have given a bit more information though.I live in a 2 story house in the middle of 6 acres that was one a bean field in eastern VA.my nearest nieghbor is 150yds away.I have a Kimber CDP and S&W686 pd along with a few hunting shotguns and rifles.So I have the habdgun covered.
I believe I am going to focus my $1200 on a quality base rifle to build upon.
No idea where the name Dwayne came into this.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25446
Wow,I did not think I would get this much of a response.Thanks for all of the useful information it was way more than I expected.and the entertainment too.
I should have given a bit more information though.I live in a 2 story house in the middle of 6 acres that was one a bean field in eastern VA.my nearest nieghbor is 150yds away.I have a Kimber CDP and S&W686 pd along with a few hunting shotguns and rifles.So I have the habdgun covered.
I believe I am going to focus my $1200 on a quality base rifle to build upon.
With some research, patience and persistence in this climate, you can get the job done and put together a quality base rifle within your budget. Keep an eye on sites like BravoCompany, G&R Tactical, Rainier Arms and set up some email notifications if the parts you're looking for aren't in stock.
With some research, patience and persistence in this climate, you can get the job done and put together a quality base rifle within your budget. Keep an eye on sites like BravoCompany, G&R Tactical, Rainier Arms and set up some email notifications if the parts you're looking for aren't in stock.
Thanks I will definatly check the sights out.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25446
oh yeah........
EzGoingKev-
Read that link, then get back to me. In the interim:
joke
/dʒoʊk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [johk] Show IPA noun, verb, joked, jok⋅ing.
–noun
1. something said or done to provoke laughter or cause amusement, as a witticism, a short and amusing anecdote, or a prankish act: He tells very funny jokes. She played a joke on him.
2. something that is amusing or ridiculous, esp. because of being ludicrously inadequate or a sham; a thing, situation, or person laughed at rather than taken seriously; farce: Their pretense of generosity is a joke. An officer with no ability to command is a joke.
3. a matter that need not be taken very seriously; trifling matter: The loss was no joke.
4. something that does not present the expected challenge; something very easy: The test was a joke for the whole class.
5. practical joke.
–verb (used without object)
6. to speak or act in a playful or merry way: He was always joking with us.
7. to say something in fun or teasing rather than in earnest; be facetious: He didn't really mean it, he was only joking.
–verb (used with object)
8. to subject to jokes; make fun of; tease.
9. to obtain by joking: The comedian joked coins from the audience.
Origin:
1660–70; < L jocus jest
Related forms:
jokeless, adjective
jok⋅ing⋅ly, adverb
Synonyms:
1. wisecrack, gag, jape, prank, quip, quirk, sally, raillery. Joke, jest refer to something said (or done) in sport, or to cause amusement. A joke is something said or done for the sake of exciting laughter; it may be raillery, a witty remark, or a prank or trick: to tell a joke. Jest, today a more formal word, nearly always refers to joking language and is more suggestive of scoffing or ridicule than is joke: to speak in jest.
:)
No one cares if his opinion is different than grant's or anyone else for that matter. We care because his opinion is wrong and lacking evidence. It stands in contrast to scientific and real world facts. Tough to defend if you ask me. It does everyone a disservice to continue to allow such things to continue.
Rob_S- Were is your unqualified opinion thread?
Thanks I will definatly check the sights out.
Grant has some really nice custom lower builds (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=27834) you could pair with a BravoCompany carbine or midlength upper for around $900-$975. More LMT uppers will be available soon on a fairly regular basis (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26986) too.
EzGoingKev
03-22-09, 19:40
delete
CaptainDooley
03-22-09, 19:45
Back on topic...
If his budget is $1,200, then $900 for the rifle alone is too much.
If it were me, I'd budget 500 rounds of practice ammo ($200 at today's prices) as a minimum to build familiarity with the weapon. Then there are the magazines, the sling, the case, the SHTF ammo (100 rounds at about $1/round), and pretty quickly you're way over budget.
Regarding the AR vs. shotgun issue, where's a moderator when we need one?!
Ben
Yes, but he was asking about the rifle alone... which an extra $300 lets him trick it out nicely...
Ok, I have a budget of $1200 from the wife (finally)
I am looking for info/input on the best rifle/accesaries for a home defense AR rifle
but $1200 is the max I can spend.
This sounds like $1,200 must cover the rifle AND accessories.
If ammo is beyond that, then he's in good shape. If not, then there's no way...
Bimmer
Rob_S- Were is your unqualified opinion thread?
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19307
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19307
Ding. Man you are on top things. :D :cool:
CaptainDooley
03-22-09, 20:36
BTW... the Duane link was hilarious (and extremely creepy). I definitely don't want either my son or daughter around this guy... but his is fun to watch.
You can put together an LMT for about $1k ($480 for an upper, $130 for the bolt carrier group, $330 for a lower, $30 for handguards, $20 for charging handle). Add 4 Pmags for another $60 and a LaRue rear sight for $90, and shipping should bring that to about $1200.
Granted, this will be an exercise in patience, too. ;)
-B
Yep, but finding the parts in today climate will be slow and concerted effort. Trust me I know!
SwatDawg15
03-22-09, 22:36
Yep, but finding the parts in today climate will be slow and concerted effort. Trust me I know!
You got that right, I'm planing my next duty weapon now, and the parts availability does not look promising.
Yes, a pistol with one hand. Before you laugh too much use some grey matter and think about it for a minute.
Go ahead and lurk around your house at night with both of your hands sticking out in front of you. It's a very vulnerable position in close quarters...sticking your weapon that far out is inviting someone to take it away from you. Ever do any knife fighting? I've always learned to hold the blade back with a reaction hand in front to avoid having your knife become a liability.
Here is a video I found that, if you look closely, can give you an idea of what I'm talking about with using a pistol with one hand:
http://www.paladinpress.com/product/39/24
I couldn't help but think of my kenpo training while watching this video. Sidestepping and blocking -the basics of kenpo although in kenpo the idea is to close the distance. With a firearm in the equation you would want to do the opposite -increase the distance between you and the perp and sidestepping and blocking will help you.
So imagine this, you're in your house, late at night and you are roused from your bed by a noise. You grab your pistol, hold it close to your side with your firing hand and hold your reaction hand out and at the ready, palm open (you want to keep your palm open because of the unbendable arm concempt -the way your muscles work it is much more difficult to collapse your arm in on you with your palm open than with fist closed, that's why football players use the 'stiff arm' technique).
Ok, so you're lurking down your hallway and reach the end. Waiting at the end, just around the corner and crouched down slightly is an intruder who springs on you, trying to tie up your weapon system. Instead of getting up and under your carbine he hits your reaction hand, which holds mostly firm. All you have to do is pivot your torso a bit and plug a few rounds in his gut and it is a done deal.
Any scenario where you are in close quarters alone with a bad guy is obviously a bad deal. I would feel much better having two tools at my disposal -a reaction hand and a firing hand holding a pistol tight to my side. If I needed to I could grab a handful of t-shirt, face, hair or whatever with my reaction hand while I blast away at extremely close range with my pistol which is held firmly against my side with my firing hand.
With an AR both hands are tied up. If you let go with one hand to try to fight off an opponent you've already lost. If you are wearing a sling of any sort you already have lost because now you are tangled in it and your weapon.
Inside a house, in tight quarters with all sorts of your wife's crap piled all over it is easier to imagine a scenario where you will have little room to maneuver, thus less room to put between you and the perp which makes using a two handed weapon a liability.
I'm not a troll. I was an infantry squad leaders and part of the longest single combat tour in OIF history. I've had a few other ventures with the Army, but that doesn't mean shit as a whole. The Army has exceedingly poor carbine training. I am educated and I use what I've learned from my various experiences as best I can.
As far as the ballistics go, I'm going to build an exterior stud wall to shoot so I can see what it will do for my own eyes.
A video from Paladin press and Gabe Suarez does not equal grey matter...
Again, have you been trained in proper CQB with a long gun, or short gun for that matter?
I have been trained in the "retention technique", it IS NOT for searching. BTW, keeping the weapon that close "in tight" as you advocate, can cause malfunctions.
A gun grab is bad news either way, with proper training its no worse with a long gun then a short gun, and I'm not basing my weapon choice on the chance that the bad guy may grab for it.
There is no need for you to build a wall, actually a few walls, the research has already been done, by dependable sources, you just refuse to believe us. Why would we lie to you? What do we have to gain by it?
Go to the web sites I mentioned or do a search, look for something more professional then Paladin Press, and you'll find the research has already been done.
BTW, I was an Infantry Squad leader also, I've been carrying the M16fow for over 22 years, I've trained with some of the best shooters, instructors and SWAT teams around. NO one advocates searching in the retention position.
Bob
Rob_S- Were is your unqualified opinion thread?
you can always find it here (http://tacticalyellowvisor.net/14401/73895.html)
;)
As far as the ballistics go, I'm going to build an exterior stud wall to shoot so I can see what it will do for my own eyes.
You need to put the gelatin behind it or you're just making holes in sheetrock.
The point people are trying to make regarding this is the lethality of the round AFTER it passes through a wall or two. If you just go out and shoot a .45, 9mm, and .223 at a single sheetrock wall you're just making noise.
Wait, that's kind of your thing, just making noise, isn't it?
If you want to have a discussion on whether or not a .223 caliber carbine is a viable solution for home defense, why not just start a thread on it? This is at least the second thread you've started your pontificating in which then devolves into you calling the majority of members here "fools".
The OP asked for suggestions on outfitting himself with a home defense carbine. Suggesting he buy a handgun instead is like suggesting that a football player wear a tutu.
I see someone post here about having $1200.00 USD to purchase one and most of the thread turns into a tactical chest pounding I love myself, been there done that.
Nothing to do with the guy wanting to get an AR.
So, do we help him or do we continue to talk about t-shirts?
LOL. :)
Not that it matters to the thread NOW, but the OP's budget doesn't really lend itself to an AR. Yeah, I know you can luck out and find one or build one if you get a good deal, but even those options leave very little left for accessories and ammo.
Assuming the OP has familiarity with both, I'd suggest the OP look to a pistol or shotgun. With either (especially a shotgun), a reliable example can be had with plenty left over for a light, ammo, and maybe some professional instruction.
Another option as hinted to above is find a AK paratrooper for about $550-$650, that leaves plenty of money to spend on making into a tacti-cool rifle with ammo and mags to spare!
Yes, a pistol with one hand. Before you laugh too much use some grey matter and think about it for a minute.
Go ahead and lurk around your house at night with both of your hands sticking out in front of you.
DING! DING! DING! This just tells me what I need to know. You do NOT walk around your house with with your arms fully extended!
Seek CQB training immediately! Do not pass go, do not collect $200!
As far as the ballistics go, I'm going to build an exterior stud wall to shoot so I can see what it will do for my own eyes.
Sure. Do not look at the FBI data or listen to any of what theprofessionals on this forum have said.
My advice to you would be to STOP posting and start attending QUALITY training schools.
C4
Another option as hinted to above is find a AK paratrooper for about $550-$650, that leaves plenty of money to spend on making into a tacti-cool rifle with ammo and mags to spare!
Yes, but this caliber is VERY poor for home defense. SHTF/zombies, yes, HD, no.
C4
Assuming the OP has familiarity with both, I'd suggest the OP look to a pistol or shotgun. With either (especially a shotgun), a reliable example can be had with plenty left over for a light, ammo, and maybe some professional instruction.
The OP has a few handguns and shotguns already...I would think based on what he said here that he should go ahead and buy an AR (or a lower/upper, etc), and add the light/sling/so-on when he can. Might take some smart shopping in these times but it can be done.
I have a Kimber CDP and S&W686 pd along with a few hunting shotguns and rifles.So I have the habdgun covered.
I believe I am going to focus my $1200 on a quality base rifle to build upon.
My advice to you would be to STOP posting and start attending QUALITY training schools.
C4
I love how my valid points, if even read, are completely tossed aside. Didn't you do a lot of reading in the Navy?
And my advice to you is get off the computer and get into a dojo. You may learn something you can apply.
I love how my valid points, if even read, are completely tossed aside. Didn't you do a lot of reading in the Navy?
And my advice to you is get off the computer and get into a dojo. You may learn something you can apply.
Which "valid" points are you talking about?
I have read your posts, and replied to them, have they been read?
All your "valid points" have been disproved, yet you continue to insist upon them. With no other backing then a "dojo" and what you think.
Other then your mil time( and I'm not marginalizing that) what other specific training in CQB/hostage rescue/building repossession/asset recapture/etc do you have?
I say this not to be a dick, but those missions are quite different then your average infantry type mission. And far to many "joes" do not know as much as they think they know.
The info you seek has been presented to you, the studies have been done, the TTP's are in place, there is no reason to re invent the wheel.
Gun grabs are bad, yes, but to base your weapon selection on that is also bad. proper ready techniques with either the long gun or the short gun, along with situational awareness goes a lot further in countering them then the retention position.
BTW, I've been in a dojo, and met a few blackbelts, and I'm sure much like everything else, it depends on who, but really they aint the end all.
TO the OP, we do apologize for the thread drift, but, when certain fallacies are advocated on the Internet, or anywhere really, they should be immediately put to rest, otherwise they continue to thrive, and become Internet myth.
my valid points
Can you go ahead and list what those are? I'm having trouble finding them. :confused:
I'm not a troll.
Could this be you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kckLMufuObQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jgz5rlTInaQ&feature=related
As far as the ballistics go, I'm going to build an exterior stud wall to shoot so I can see what it will do for my own eyes.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm
I love how my valid points, if even read, are completely tossed aside. Didn't you do a lot of reading in the Navy?
And my advice to you is get off the computer and get into a dojo. You may learn something you can apply.
If you had any valid points, I would have looked at them. To date, I have not found a single one.
Ya I did read a lot in the USN. Then again, my rate required that you had to be smart and have a lot of common sense. ;)
I am all for self defense training (hand to hand, knife, etc). I am also into CQB Night Fighting which is how I know that you have never had any.
I would suggest that you log off the computer for good until you realize that you do not know what you don't know.
C4
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