JonInWA
03-21-09, 09:09
Since both recently and currently we've had several threads on the forum here that concentrated on discussions regarding the relative qualities and problems perceived with Check-Mate magazines, I thought that it might be helpful to post a thread that might flesh out the discussions.
As many of you know, I'm a former field grade Army officer-I've been out since 1992. By that time, the Beretta M9 had pretty much been issued down to the combat support and combat service support level units, as the Army had finally issued it throughout to both TOE and TDA units. I was the XO of a CSS Group at the time, and as I had a proprietary interest in guns, I had a detailed look at the first group of 10 that came into my Group. To the best of my recollection, at that time the magazines provided were Beretta manufactured-and they were fairly scarce, and jealously guarded by unit armorers, to the point of not being issued during field training exercise deployments for fear of loss/damage.
During my exposure, use, and qualification with the M9 during my military service, I never had any problems with it. I wasn't particularly happy with the hemisphere-and dot front and rear sight configuration, and I replaced the grips on my PDW with a set of Uncle Mike's Craig Spegel-designed rubber grips. At the time, I preferred my Ruger P85 and subsequently my SIG-Sauer P220 in 9mm, but I never had any problems with the M9. I maintained it with Army issue Break-Free, which worked just fine.
I've subsequently owned several Beretta 92 pistols-a Police Special 92D Centurion, a 92F Compact Type M, and my current 92D. On my current 92D, the only changes that I've made have been to replace the stock grips with first a set of Uncle Mike's grips (as I did with my original military M9), and then with a set of Falcon Industries' Ergo Extreme Grips. My 92D came with a set of excellent Trijicon sights as OEM sights, and despite thier 1996 installation, they're still glowing just fine (as well as having an excellent day sight picture). The gun came with two OEM Beretta 10-round magazines, and due to some judicious horse-trading in conjunction with the purchase, 3 MDS 15 round magazines; I got the gun brand new in 2006, although it had been manufactured in 1996 (the DAO configuration and the replacement of its original 15 round magazines with 10 reound magazines undoubtably significantly hindered its salability).
In 2007, I became aware of Check-Mate magazines. Previously, I'd heard of them, but fell into the anecdotal camp of believing that they were problem-inducing junk and to be avoided at all costs. At that timeframe, Jacquelyn Vieweg, the Business Development Manager of Check-Mate Industries decided to make a presence on both the Firing Line and the Beretta forums and discuss and clear the misconceptions regarding the magazines, and also provided samples to several of us on the Beretta forum for testing and review. I received two of these magazines, one with a carbon steel spring, and one with their at that time experimental stainless-steel spring. Both were 12/05 dated magazines, and were dry film finished; I've subsequently been provided with two additional magazines, both with stainless-steel springs. All of these magazines have performed flawlessly, and been used for IDPA, carry, and steel plate competitions. Two of them have been kept continuously loaded since 2007. Based on my experiences with them, Check-Mate susequently provided me with several generations of their new 8 round 1911 magazines, which I and our local IDPA club helped them to beta/field test; Check-Mate has recently decided to sponsor 6 of us in our IDPA shooting.
So much for background. In March of 2007, on the Beretta forum, Jackie provided the following information:
"You are correct there were a number of reports that the springs used in our magazines were defective. The reason for this belief was because; when the magazines first started to fail, the common belief was that the springs were the problem. Because of this belief a large number of troops who experienced problems attempted to fix it by disassembling the magazines, removing the springs, and stretching them out (based on actual testimony given by the troops). This ultimately caused the springs to lose their strength. It was discovered when we received a number of the malfunctioning magazines for evaluation that several of the springs were removed to be cleaned or stretched and were put back upside down...Check-Mate has a number of tests done on the springs to test the spring quality, strength and durability. Each test concluded that the springs were of superior quality and were in fact durable and reliable. Even a 30 day preload test was conducted on a number of our magazines; each one passed."
"CMI was NOT the lowest bidder for the 2000 9mm gov't contract; we were awarded it because we has successfully fulfulled previous contracts for the gov't for the 9mm dating back to 1996, classifying us as a low risk manufacturer. As far as a bare minumum, when a specification calls for a particular metal, spring, finish, etc., all of these materials must meet the specifications. To insure that all the materials are in fact to the specs, and not cheap, all materials used must be certified and pass a series of tests. All of the materials that we used were purchases to meet or exceed the government required specifications. Of the materials we purchased, all were prime materials from domestic mills, they were certified and all passed the gov't tests."
Earlier, in a January thread on the Firing Line, Jackie specified, "You are correct about sand being the case for the 9mm's malfunction. The government 's specifications for the magazines called for us to use a heavy phosphate finish. Unfortunately the sand in Iraq is unlike any around here; it is so fine it is actually a lot like talcum powder which easily embedded within the phosphate finish. We did a number of tests and concluded that the dry film lubricant used today would be a much smoother finish reducing any friction caused by the sand...no one anticipated the effects this particular sand was going to have on the magazines when mixed with the phosphate finish. But the truth is that the magazines were made to the technical data package. This was the same data package that Beretta was making their magazines to when they had the government contract; the only difference was in the finish. The government decided they wanted a more corrosion resistant finish than the black oxide; this is why the specifications called for the phosphate finish. When the malfunctioning magazines were sent back to us, ninteen magazines were test fired. The magazines were fired in all attitudes, by that I mean 90 degrees left and 180 degrees (upside down). They were fired rapidly and in single burst, and in a number of other ways. We could not recreate the problems. It wasn't until Picatinny Arsenal brought back samples of the sand from Iraq and set up a test chamber were we then able to understand what was causing the magazines to fail."
Subsequent to that determination, Jackie related that in a 90 day period, Check-Mate halted production, produced and got approved the dry film finish, and produced 64,000 magazines.
Unfortunately, the military has not purged the previous phosphate-finished magazines from both the system or the theater, so the old magazines continue to be intermixed with the dry-film ones at the unit level, perpetuating the problem-both to troops in the field and to Check-Mate's reputation.
I hope this information helps the discussions.
Best, Jon
As many of you know, I'm a former field grade Army officer-I've been out since 1992. By that time, the Beretta M9 had pretty much been issued down to the combat support and combat service support level units, as the Army had finally issued it throughout to both TOE and TDA units. I was the XO of a CSS Group at the time, and as I had a proprietary interest in guns, I had a detailed look at the first group of 10 that came into my Group. To the best of my recollection, at that time the magazines provided were Beretta manufactured-and they were fairly scarce, and jealously guarded by unit armorers, to the point of not being issued during field training exercise deployments for fear of loss/damage.
During my exposure, use, and qualification with the M9 during my military service, I never had any problems with it. I wasn't particularly happy with the hemisphere-and dot front and rear sight configuration, and I replaced the grips on my PDW with a set of Uncle Mike's Craig Spegel-designed rubber grips. At the time, I preferred my Ruger P85 and subsequently my SIG-Sauer P220 in 9mm, but I never had any problems with the M9. I maintained it with Army issue Break-Free, which worked just fine.
I've subsequently owned several Beretta 92 pistols-a Police Special 92D Centurion, a 92F Compact Type M, and my current 92D. On my current 92D, the only changes that I've made have been to replace the stock grips with first a set of Uncle Mike's grips (as I did with my original military M9), and then with a set of Falcon Industries' Ergo Extreme Grips. My 92D came with a set of excellent Trijicon sights as OEM sights, and despite thier 1996 installation, they're still glowing just fine (as well as having an excellent day sight picture). The gun came with two OEM Beretta 10-round magazines, and due to some judicious horse-trading in conjunction with the purchase, 3 MDS 15 round magazines; I got the gun brand new in 2006, although it had been manufactured in 1996 (the DAO configuration and the replacement of its original 15 round magazines with 10 reound magazines undoubtably significantly hindered its salability).
In 2007, I became aware of Check-Mate magazines. Previously, I'd heard of them, but fell into the anecdotal camp of believing that they were problem-inducing junk and to be avoided at all costs. At that timeframe, Jacquelyn Vieweg, the Business Development Manager of Check-Mate Industries decided to make a presence on both the Firing Line and the Beretta forums and discuss and clear the misconceptions regarding the magazines, and also provided samples to several of us on the Beretta forum for testing and review. I received two of these magazines, one with a carbon steel spring, and one with their at that time experimental stainless-steel spring. Both were 12/05 dated magazines, and were dry film finished; I've subsequently been provided with two additional magazines, both with stainless-steel springs. All of these magazines have performed flawlessly, and been used for IDPA, carry, and steel plate competitions. Two of them have been kept continuously loaded since 2007. Based on my experiences with them, Check-Mate susequently provided me with several generations of their new 8 round 1911 magazines, which I and our local IDPA club helped them to beta/field test; Check-Mate has recently decided to sponsor 6 of us in our IDPA shooting.
So much for background. In March of 2007, on the Beretta forum, Jackie provided the following information:
"You are correct there were a number of reports that the springs used in our magazines were defective. The reason for this belief was because; when the magazines first started to fail, the common belief was that the springs were the problem. Because of this belief a large number of troops who experienced problems attempted to fix it by disassembling the magazines, removing the springs, and stretching them out (based on actual testimony given by the troops). This ultimately caused the springs to lose their strength. It was discovered when we received a number of the malfunctioning magazines for evaluation that several of the springs were removed to be cleaned or stretched and were put back upside down...Check-Mate has a number of tests done on the springs to test the spring quality, strength and durability. Each test concluded that the springs were of superior quality and were in fact durable and reliable. Even a 30 day preload test was conducted on a number of our magazines; each one passed."
"CMI was NOT the lowest bidder for the 2000 9mm gov't contract; we were awarded it because we has successfully fulfulled previous contracts for the gov't for the 9mm dating back to 1996, classifying us as a low risk manufacturer. As far as a bare minumum, when a specification calls for a particular metal, spring, finish, etc., all of these materials must meet the specifications. To insure that all the materials are in fact to the specs, and not cheap, all materials used must be certified and pass a series of tests. All of the materials that we used were purchases to meet or exceed the government required specifications. Of the materials we purchased, all were prime materials from domestic mills, they were certified and all passed the gov't tests."
Earlier, in a January thread on the Firing Line, Jackie specified, "You are correct about sand being the case for the 9mm's malfunction. The government 's specifications for the magazines called for us to use a heavy phosphate finish. Unfortunately the sand in Iraq is unlike any around here; it is so fine it is actually a lot like talcum powder which easily embedded within the phosphate finish. We did a number of tests and concluded that the dry film lubricant used today would be a much smoother finish reducing any friction caused by the sand...no one anticipated the effects this particular sand was going to have on the magazines when mixed with the phosphate finish. But the truth is that the magazines were made to the technical data package. This was the same data package that Beretta was making their magazines to when they had the government contract; the only difference was in the finish. The government decided they wanted a more corrosion resistant finish than the black oxide; this is why the specifications called for the phosphate finish. When the malfunctioning magazines were sent back to us, ninteen magazines were test fired. The magazines were fired in all attitudes, by that I mean 90 degrees left and 180 degrees (upside down). They were fired rapidly and in single burst, and in a number of other ways. We could not recreate the problems. It wasn't until Picatinny Arsenal brought back samples of the sand from Iraq and set up a test chamber were we then able to understand what was causing the magazines to fail."
Subsequent to that determination, Jackie related that in a 90 day period, Check-Mate halted production, produced and got approved the dry film finish, and produced 64,000 magazines.
Unfortunately, the military has not purged the previous phosphate-finished magazines from both the system or the theater, so the old magazines continue to be intermixed with the dry-film ones at the unit level, perpetuating the problem-both to troops in the field and to Check-Mate's reputation.
I hope this information helps the discussions.
Best, Jon