View Full Version : Hero or Idiot- Opinions
k_cheerangie
03-24-09, 17:54
http://http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breaking-news/story/965735.html
What do you guys think is this guy a hero or a fool. The Customer I mean of course not the robber.
Well, the link didn't work for me so I blindly voted him a hero - sight UNSEEN. :eek:
Cause heroism is intrinsically good even when risky - cause that is the essence of heroism.
fruitjacket
03-24-09, 18:03
I hope he pulls through. Screw the criminal.
I think he's a hero and he's good for the pro gun argument.
1 dead, one injured in Miami Burger King shooting
BY ROBERT SAMUELS AND JENNIFER LEBOVICH
JLEBOVICH@MIAMIHERALD.COM
One man was killed and another seriously wounded in a shootout inside a Miami Burger King on Tuesday, officials said.
Police said a man wearing a ski mask walked into the store at Biscayne Boulevard and 54th Street and demanded money from a clerk.
A customer, who has a concealed weapons permit, pulled a gun, said Officer Jeff Giordano, a Miami police spokesman.
The customer and robber exchanged fire.
The robber was shot dead at the scene.
The customer, who had several gunshot wounds, was taken to Ryder Trauma Center in serious but stable condition, said Lt. Ignatius Carroll, a Miami Fire Rescue spokesman.
At about 4 p.m., officials got several 911 calls reporting people shot inside the Burger King.
He made it 6 minutes, he should pull through. The robber won't.
Not sure on the shooting details, but the good samaritan likely had the element of surprise and "probably" didn't capitalize on it well enough and lacked a primary and secondary battle plan. Perhaps he thought the guy would drop after the first shot which is a common problem with a lot of people. I know of several shootings where someone came up from behind to shoot a robber with no cover, and no plan after that first shot was fired.
That link doesn't work for me......I'm just going off the snipit fruitjacket posted.
As the story reads. Hero. Why is this a question? What should he have done? Wait till the bad guy dictated the fight and started shooting people himself?
You never know the outcome of something if you sit back. It could go away, it could get worse. You have an idea when it's you deciding the course of action. My opinion anyways.
School bus full of children in the restaurant? Do what I can to get between them and the bad guy and hope to god he just leaves. But like I said, as it reads, hero.
Sends a message to would be robbers doesnt it! I think its good for criminals to have another worry to add to there list when breaking the law.
Doom.
Whatever his plan, it was not good enough. But I applaud him for doing something.
madisonsfinest
03-24-09, 20:47
too many http's at the beginning of the link. Erase a set and you should be able to get to the link.........
Hero
k_cheerangie
03-24-09, 20:56
As the story reads. Hero. Why is this a question? What should he have done? Wait till the bad guy dictated the fight and started shooting people himself?
You never know the outcome of something if you sit back. It could go away, it could get worse. You have an idea when it's you deciding the course of action. My opinion anyways.
School bus full of children in the restaurant? Do what I can to get between them and the bad guy and hope to god he just leaves. But like I said, as it reads, hero.
The reason it is a question mainly, was my wondering on the legal aspect of defending property you have No Vested Interest in with lethal force (unless he is a shareholder in that franchise) . I have no question that the individual thought he had the best interest in mind by not allowing a Wolf to prey on the innocent Sheep.
What is to say that the family of the now dead robber, will not seek some sort of legal repremand against the victim, which is not something at all unheard of.
Thats why it was a question. Sorry for not phrasing my initial post correctly.
The reason it is a question mainly, was my wondering on the legal aspect of defending property you have No Vested Interest in with lethal force (unless he is a shareholder in that franchise) . I have no question that the individual thought he had the best interest in mind by not allowing a Wolf to prey on the innocent Sheep.
What is to say that the family of the now dead robber, will not seek some sort of legal repremand against the victim, which is not something at all unheard of.
Thats why it was a question. Sorry for not phrasing my initial post correctly.
I don't think he shot the bad guy to protect burger kings financial bottom line. The life of the clerk? The lives of those inside the restaurant? His own life? The life of future victims? I hope that was the case at least.
:confused:This is like the tenth citizen v criminal in FL this year. I don't recall any of the foolish stuff I've been hearing about this case. I guess it's just more of the anti-gun gun people. You guys shouldn't carry guns, having one means you may have to use it, and when you have use it, unless you have a death ray, someone may decide not to collapse for some reason then shoot back and you could be hurt. You guys better just leave it up to the perp to decide if he wants to shoot you in the head or not, most likely you'll be OK.
HiggsBoson
03-24-09, 21:19
For posterity, here's the corrected link:
http//www.miamiherald.com/news/breaking-news/story/965735.html
The reason it is a question mainly, was my wondering on the legal aspect of defending property you have No Vested Interest in with lethal force (unless he is a shareholder in that franchise) . I have no question that the individual thought he had the best interest in mind by not allowing a Wolf to prey on the innocent Sheep.
What is to say that the family of the now dead robber, will not seek some sort of legal repremand against the victim, which is not something at all unheard of.
Thats why it was a question. Sorry for not phrasing my initial post correctly.
He may have felt that his life was being threatened and defended that, not the franchise. Just a thought.
B
Why is there a questions here? If it were a police officer involved he would regarded as a hero, and confronting criminals is part of his job. I feel his actio0ns make him a hero, he had the opportunity to do nothing or tuck tail and run away like 95% of the population would do. But now he confronted the shit bird head on.
-DM-
LittleRedToyota
03-25-09, 09:38
The reason it is a question mainly, was my wondering on the legal aspect of defending property you have No Vested Interest in with lethal force (unless he is a shareholder in that franchise) .
assuming the robber already had shown his gun, i wouldn't say he was defending property. i would say he was defending the life of the BK worker who the guy was pointing the gun at...and the lives of everyone else in the place, including his own.
would the robber have actually killed anybody? who knows. but, he certainly had the opportunity and means. and by simply conducting an armed robbery, he has shown he has an aggressive, predatory nature which, at a minimum, makes it very dangerous to assume he would not.
Gutshot John
03-25-09, 09:55
I don't think he's either a hero, or an idiot. Had other people been shot, that equation might alter.
He is a mensch that got lucky. I applaud his courage in drawing the BG's fire.
That said, better lucky than smart.
Who cares what he was defending/not defending!? I could care less if he was defending against his fries getting cold. At least he was defending something instead of standing around with a stupid look on his face like everyone else in the place.
DARK-KNIGHT
03-25-09, 20:55
Hello all, this is one of my first few posts...I think the guy is a hero...we have had several armed citizens end violent encounters recently...one being a cab driver that has shot 3 in the past ten years that attempted to rob him.
It's always a beautiful thing when a thug takes a dirt nap.
The reason it is a question mainly, was my wondering on the legal aspect of defending property you have No Vested Interest in with lethal force (unless he is a shareholder in that franchise) . I have no question that the individual thought he had the best interest in mind by not allowing a Wolf to prey on the innocent Sheep.
What is to say that the family of the now dead robber, will not seek some sort of legal repremand against the victim, which is not something at all unheard of.
Thats why it was a question. Sorry for not phrasing my initial post correctly.
The last time a guy did that in a Burger King around here, five patrons ended up dead.
As such, I think he's got an open-and-shut case of "I was in fear for my life."
A guy waving a gun at Burger King isn't doing it because his Whopper wasn't made his way.
The reason it is a question mainly, was my wondering on the legal aspect of defending property you have No Vested Interest in with lethal force (unless he is a shareholder in that franchise) . I have no question that the individual thought he had the best interest in mind by not allowing a Wolf to prey on the innocent Sheep.
What is to say that the family of the now dead robber, will not seek some sort of legal repremand against the victim, which is not something at all unheard of.
Thats why it was a question. Sorry for not phrasing my initial post correctly.
We're not talking about using force to "defend property". The shithead had a weapon; he was using it in the comission of a crime.
Barring any other factors, it really is as simple as that - and for a bonus, in FL shooters are legally protected against suits if it is a good shoot.
If everyone runs around not getting involved because they're afraid of some bullshit lawsuit after the fact, then bad guys aren't going to get ventilated, and we're going to have a lot more bad guys running around robbing, killing, etc. That entire attitude is simply a giant FAIL. Good for the shooter for stepping up and acting.
FYI, the citizen involved is a member at www.lightfighter.net.
Why would anyone second guess this man's action? Were you there? Pretty easy to pick this apart with the luxury of time and safety.
Having a plan? Shit...He did the best he could with what he had...and he put the bad guy down. Sure, he took some hits, but he made it.
The term Hero is thrown around so much these days that it looses some of its meaning. Id like to think of this guy as a person who did the right thing at the right time, for the right reasons.
The fact that you would even have the term "idiot" in your poll speaks volumes.
The "good samaritan", as he has been labeled by the local media, is a friend of mine. I will have a face to face with him tommorrow afternoon in the hospital. So far he is recovering nicely. He took a hit in the chest which broke ribs and nicked a lung, another broke his left arm, and the third hit his gun hand and grazed his arm. He is already off the pumps and tubes, so it is looking very positive. I will update with more info after I see him.
The perp was out on bond awaiting trial for armed car jacking and had a long rap sheet. :confused:
fruitjacket
03-28-09, 02:39
The "good samaritan", as he has been labeled by the local media, is a friend of mine. I will have a face to face with him tommorrow afternoon in the hospital. So far he is recovering nicely. He took a hit in the chest which broke ribs and nicked a lung, another broke his left arm, and the third hit his gun hand and grazed his arm. He is already off the pumps and tubes, so it is looking very positive. I will update with more info after I see him.
That's incredible. I'm happy to hear he's still kicking after taking those hits.
When you get a chance to speak with him, let him know that people all over the US are applauding him and what he did, and not to let the naysayers get him down. There is a huge population that support him.
I will definitely not Monday morning what this guy as he was there and only he knows if he was justified. Having said that when we carry a gun a situation like this can occur at any time. Thankfully this guy will pull through and the douche bag is taking a permanent dirt nap.
The "good samaritan", as he has been labeled by the local media, is a friend of mine. I will have a face to face with him tommorrow afternoon in the hospital. So far he is recovering nicely. He took a hit in the chest which broke ribs and nicked a lung, another broke his left arm, and the third hit his gun hand and grazed his arm. He is already off the pumps and tubes, so it is looking very positive. I will update with more info after I see him.
Glad to hear he is recovering. Who is paying his medical bills and is anyone helping to cover his other fiscal responsibilities? I'm not sure BC/BS would be interested in covering my bills without a lot of legal pressure.
Buckaroo
Went to visit my friend in the hospital and got some first hand info on what went down. First of all, his recovery is going very well. One round hit his upper left arm and broke one of the bones as it passed through. The round that hit his right hand grazed his hand and arm making a wound that looked more like road rash or a burn. He was hit twice in the chest, one of the rounds may have gone through his arm first.
My friend was carrying a Glock 19 loaded with Win. Ranger 124 SXT and a spare mag. The robber was using a .380 of unknown brand. My friend was in the restaraunt, had ordered, and was filling his drink while waiting for the order to come up. The robber walked in to the counter with a ski mask on and gun in hand. He ordered the girl behind the counter to get the money up and then turned away from my friend to look toward the the door. At that instant my friend drew his weapon as he closed the very short distance, pressed his muzzle to the robbers back between his shoulders and ordered the robber to put his weapon down. Instead the robber spun and started firing, my friend started firing and they were barely more than contact distance at this point. After the first shot was fired he experienced all the psychological and physiological gunfight symptoms of auditory exclusion, tunnel vision and tachypsychia. He felt that training had played a part as he kept thinking center of mass and at some point he realized his G19 trigger was not resetting, racked the slide and continued to fire until his adversary was down. Thinking about it later he felt the round that grazed his gun hand and arm may have hit the slide and caused the malfunction, as the G19 and ammo had been well tested for limp wristing and other possible problems before being carried. At this time it is not known by him how many rounds were fired.
Apparently the State is going to cover the medical bills. I will get more info on that later.
Apparently the State is going to cover the medical bills. I will get more info on that later.
a novel concept. he did the state a major service- took out a societal cancer cell. he was, for a moment in time, the Law. he should get a chunk of the $600,000+ that piece of shit would have ended up costing the state in incarceration costs throughout his life.
Best wishes to Djohn for his recovery. Interesting account, lots of lesson to be learned.
John_Wayne777
03-31-09, 06:50
http://http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breaking-news/story/965735.html
What do you guys think is this guy a hero or a fool. The Customer I mean of course not the robber.
It's clear to me he wanted to do the right thing.
Would I have tried to warn the gun out of the robber's hands? Probably not. My feeling on the matter is that if I had the drop on the guy in a state with laws like Florida's I wouldn't be handing over the advantage of surprise so easily.
I wouldn't describe the guy as an "idiot" by any stretch. In fact, I think that's a pretty crappy way to start things off... I would simply use this incident as a learning tool for the future. If this gentleman had it to do over again I'm sure he wouldn't give that scum-sucking assclown the chance to shoot him....either that or he'd just walk away from the situation altogether.
John_Wayne777
03-31-09, 06:54
Why is there a questions here? If it were a police officer involved he would regarded as a hero, and confronting criminals is part of his job. I feel his actio0ns make him a hero, he had the opportunity to do nothing or tuck tail and run away like 95% of the population would do. But now he confronted the shit bird head on.
That's true....equally true is that he doesn't have a police department indemnifying and insuring him.
In Florida with their "stand your ground" law I believe he's covered from civil liability if it's ruled a good shoot. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, here.
That being said, he still has a big hospital bill to face and three bullet holes in him. That's not a small price to pay.
John_Wayne777
03-31-09, 07:00
Why would anyone second guess this man's action? Were you there? Pretty easy to pick this apart with the luxury of time and safety.
...for the same reason that every mission every military unit goes on gets torn down an examined after it's over.
There are usually lessons to be learned. There's a difference between rationally examining the situation and discussing the good points and bad points and MMQB'ing something to death...
The fact that you would even have the term "idiot" in your poll speaks volumes.
I agree. It's poor form.
It's easy for folks who were not there to judge his tactics, but he stepped up and tried to do the right thing, and that's important.
His example will be subject to much scrutiny amongst self defense minded individuals, and we should learn from what happened and not give thr guy a hard time. I'm sure he has his own thoughts on what he would have done differently.
k_cheerangie
03-31-09, 07:58
Yikes! Have not been able to revist this thread in a while, I seen it has grown quite a bit.
OK, I need to apologize for suggesting that the actions of this man were those of an idiot. For that I do realise I came off on the wrong foot, but the reason that I started the thread was to get others insight on the situation not to tarnish the gentleman's name.
My best regards to the gentleman and his family, and my deepest sincerest apologies for offending you.
(Open mouth insert foot, we have all done it :( )
Now with that being said, I hung around a prominent defense lawyer for south florida who mainly dealt with firearm realted cases, people having their firearms seized and held by police for extended periods of time with no perticular reason, shooting incidents, that sort of thing, he is the President of a large IPSC club,so he is a firearm owner and therefore understands firearm owners, he is actually the guy I would be calling if I need help in a firearms realted case.
Anyway he generally tended to suggest that if you can avoid it do just so.
That was my reason for the question. And if the mods can change the title and we can continue the discussion, please do.
Not going to pass judgement & glad the bad guy is gone....I personally would have a tough time getting involved if it was crowded & the turd never showed any intentions of using his gun, but you can bet I would be ready nor would he have gotten a warning.
Like another poster stated, I bet there will be a civil case coming up. With more that a couple rounds fired, it's fortunate more did not get hurt or killed & that is what scares me most....it would not matter if who's bullet it was, it was my action that started the lead to fly.
This is just another reason why leo have my respect that so many cannot seem to grasp. You have to make decisions in seconds where your action affects so many.
I just hope I'm never in a position. :(
John_Wayne777
03-31-09, 09:10
Anyway he generally tended to suggest that if you can avoid it do just so.
Avoidance is the standard answer for a number of reasons:
Deciding to get involved in a lethal force situation can result in death or serious injury
The use of lethal force carries with it a host of potential legal issues that are poorly understood by most ordinary joes
The use of lethal force carries with it a host of potential societal consequences that are poorly understood by most ordinary joes
The use of lethal force *WILL* result in a thorough investigation by the authorities, and going through such an investigation can be about as fun as a simultaneous root canal and prostate exam
The mindset necessary to willingly and deliberately engage an armed opponent and prevail is by no means a common trait
In general the whole thing is complicated, messy, and incredibly risky...meaning avoidance is usually the best policy
There's an old saying: "The best way to win a gunfight is not to get in one in the first place" or "An ounce of avoidance is worth more than a pound of lead" etc. Generally lethal force is best thought of as a last resort to be used only when all other options have been exhausted.
There are times when the bad guys give you no other option from the get-go...such as walking into a Burger King waving a gun around. It's pretty much a lethal force situation at that point. If the gun is pointed at you, your choices are to fight or bet your life on the moral recognizance of some scumbag who is pointing a gun at you. If it is not pointing at you and you have the option of escape, you now have a choice: Be a good witness and get out of dodge, or take the guy out.
On the internet you often see individuals beating their chests about some "duty" that anyone with a CHL has to waste any bad guy in sight. These individuals generally have little or no formal training and their concept of carrying a concealed weapon is a .32 caliber semi-auto in their pants pocket with no spare magazine. They certainly have no idea what it is like to actually shoot someone and then have to live with it (and all that entails) from that moment on.
The reality is that there's no swelling sound track, no "you can be my wingman anytime!" moment after the smoke clears, and you don't get the girl and walk off into the sunset as the credits roll. There's just the ringing in your ears, the adrenaline in your veins, the cold knot in your gut, and the unique smell of blood and burned gunpowder in the air. If you're still alive and not badly injured you get to focus all your attention on the fact that you just shot a dude and now you're going to be on the pointy end of a shooting investigation. Your name will be in the papers. Your neighbors will probably look at you funny. Your co-workers will now look at you funny.
You'll get to hear the dead guy's family talk about what a good boy he was and how he was turning his life around and how he would have been the next Barak Obama if some gun toting nut hadn't gunned him down in cold blood. (This will be particularly pleasant to hear if you're in the hospital with holes in your chest from the dead scumbag's bullets) "If that boy wanted the money, they should have given him the money! You can always get more money but you cain't never bring this boy back!!" Paraphrase of an actual quote from an actual TV report in the aftermath of a shooting in Chesapeake, Va. Replace "money" with "car" and it's a word for word quote. You may even get protested by local "community" groups.
...and there's plenty more I don't have the time to list. That's an awful lot to deal with. If you're under direct attack your choices are fight or die. Easy choice. If you aren't, it's a hell of a lot more complicated.
Whatever choice you make, remember that YOU and YOUR FAMILY will have to live with it. Some will think you made the right choice...others will think you made the wrong one. The bottom line, however, is that nobody on the internet with an opinion has to live with it every single day.
That's true....equally true is that he doesn't have a police department indemnifying and insuring him.
In Florida with their "stand your ground" law I believe he's covered from civil liability if it's ruled a good shoot. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, here.
That being said, he still has a big hospital bill to face and three bullet holes in him. That's not a small price to pay.
Under the Castle Doctrine law here in FL, he is immune from prosecution from the scumbag's family. Its really nice that the media already released his name and the area he lives in. I hope that there won't be some kind of retaliation.
Its sad that the community down here views the bad guy as the "victim" though.
Over on Lightfighter, one of the members posted that the perp was reported by his family to be an "aspiring rapper". Guess he was getting material for his lyrics. :rolleyes:
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