View Full Version : The absurd notion that "weak" US gun laws are the cause of Mexican drug violence
I just cannot fathom how people can continue to make such an absurd connection. Read the full article here:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/24/obama.mexico.policy/index.html
The report from the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence asserts that Mexican drug gangs have exploited weak American gun laws and corrupt gun dealers "to amass arsenals of high-powered guns that have killed thousands and pose an increasingly grave security threat to Mexico and the U.S.," according to a statement from the organization
Nathan_Bell
03-25-09, 09:48
I just cannot fathom how people can continue to make such an absurd connection. Read the full article here:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/24/obama.mexico.policy/index.html
The report from the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence asserts that Mexican drug gangs have exploited weak American gun laws and corrupt gun dealers "to amass arsenals of high-powered guns that have killed thousands and pose an increasingly grave security threat to Mexico and the U.S.," according to a statement from the organization
Because that position helps them with their fascist goals.
Gutshot John
03-25-09, 10:05
And Mexico's Draconian gun laws have prevented "gun crimes" there??? :rolleyes:
FOUL...you're using facts and logic. Clearly we can't let facts get in the way. ;)
these mexican drug cartels have boats, submarines, jet airplanes, and loads of money. why would they buy $800 ak47's in the usa and risk them getting caught coming across the border, when they can go to africa and buy an ak at the market for $50 no questions asked......
the majority of these guns are not coming from the u.s.
I'm sure the grenade launchers, frag grenades, and machine guns that they're supposedly using came from straw purchases from gun shops in Arizona. :rolleyes:
I saw one article recently that cited California as one of the states from which weapons were flowing to Mexican criminals. Are these people serious? California?
It would not surprise me at all to learn that many of these weapons originated in the U.S. if you trace them back, but they were likely sold through government to government channels and then leaked out at the Mexican end.
American drug use is what's causing Mexican drug violence.
If the Mexicans keep sending their folks here, maybe we can just send our addicts there.
Now that is some real logic!!
American drug use is what's causing Mexican drug violence.
Couldn't agree more!
If the Mexicans keep sending their folks here, maybe we can just send our addicts there.
I like it - let our addicts live in Mexico with the drug cartels.
white spaniard
03-25-09, 15:46
Don’t know creditable this site it
http://www.gunnewsdaily.com/rw807.html
You and I Can't Buy the Guns Mexican Cartels Own
The Administration is Not Dealing Straight With Us on Mexico's Gun Problem
Ralph Weller
March 1 2009
Let's set things straight right up front. Yes, some guns are being smuggled into Mexico from the U.S. Most are handguns. But, handguns are being illegally trafficked from state to state and from the U.S. to Canada. It should come as no surprise that guns are smuggled into Mexico. But, the problem being portrayed by the U.S. media and our government is not as it seems. You see, Mexico doesn't allow ownership of most firearms, so ordinary Mexican people seeking self-protection will find a way to get them into Mexico. As for the drug cartels operating in the border towns along the U.S., they have other sources for their weapons and have become the prime supplier within Mexico.
I worked in Mexico in a border town for about five years. It was far enough from San Diego County in the Sonora Desert of Mexico that commuting several hundred miles daily was impossible. So, for a few years I lived in the city and commuted home periodically on some weekends. As crime grew out of control, I eventually moved into a place on the U.S. side and commuted daily in and out of Mexico for my own safety.
I stayed in Mexico for a Mexican holiday my first year. I don't recall the holiday. Normally, I would leave Mexico for a holiday, but it was in the middle of the week and one day was not long enough to come home. All I know is that on that particular Mexican holiday, Mexicans love to fire guns into the air. That evening as I sat on the balcony of my hotel, the gun fire that erupted in celebration was quite unbelievable. It was so intense I backed off the balcony and watched the festivities from a couple three feet in the room. We're talking war-like firing of weapons, it was that intense.
As I listened that night to the gun fire, I was somewhat shocked at the amount of fully automatic gun fire. It wasn't sporadic. It was continuous throughout the city. For a country that bans guns I thought, how in the world did they get their hands on all these full-auto weapons? Clearly what sounded like M16 fire was prolific along with 7.62 x 39 AK autos with a smattering of smaller caliber full-autos, most likely 9mm. Gun fire can be heard in most American cities on New Years, but I've never heard full-auto weapons being fired, at least not in the San Diego area.
The next day I went into work and sat down with a trusted senior Mexican manager. I looked at him and said, "I thought guns were illegal in Mexico." He chuckled and said, "So you stayed in town last night?" As the conversation progressed, it became clear that guns are as common in Mexico as tamales at Christmas. Everyone he knows, including himself, own at least one gun. And, it matters not whether it's a semi-auto or fully automatic, they're all illegal, so why stop with semi-autos? Though clearly illegal in the states in most instances, a lot of Mexicans have more firepower in terms of military weapons than we can only dream of owning here.
As time went on, parties in the city at middle class Mexican homes become a way of life. Most Mexican managers in the plant knew I was a gun wonk. As it turns out, they couldn't wait to invite me over to their place on a Friday night to show me their collection. Semi-autos, some very high-end Sigs and other European handguns were not uncommon along with piles of old revolvers. I thought I had seen everything in the states, but in Mexico it's not uncommon for people to own full-auto military rifles. Everything from an M16, UZI machine pistols and the most popular, select-fire AK47 military rifles. These are not the so-called "assault weapons" you can buy at the local gun shop in the U.S., but full select-fire military-issue rifles. Now, I know you want to know and are dying to ask; Did I see any U.S. military-issue weapons stolen from the U.S. military? Not a single one was marked with U.S. military markings. Everything was marked with additional foreign markings on the receiver, including M16 rifles, or they had nothing at all. I saw firearms manufactured in Europe, China, Russia and South America along with U.S. manufactured weapons. I saw rifles that looked familiar with no place of manufacture, no serial number or manufacturer's logo. The information was not removed, it was never there to begin with. I can only assume they came from illegal arms manufacturers in India or Pakistan that produce copies of weapons. It was obvious that none of these firearms came from a U.S. gun shop in Tucson or San Diego. You couldn't buy them from a gun shop in the states if you tried.
It seems Mexicans have a rich heritage of firearms ownership prior to the ban in 1968. Despite the laws against owning them, they ignore it. Most Mexicans will say they need it for personal protection of themselves and their family. The other reason is they don't trust the government or local law enforcement. If they have to use it in their home for self-defense, whether they end up in jail is all dependent on how much money they can come up with, or who they know in the government. It also depends on who they shoot. But, given the alternative with high crime rates, most middle class Mexicans willingly and without reservations take the risk. Despite being able to own .22 caliber pistols or rifles, Mexican law requires them to be stored at an approved firing range. Where's the firing range I asked many times? No one knew of one. Where's the gun stores in town to buy legal guns? Gun stores? No one ever recalled seeing one anywhere in Mexico, let alone their city. I'm sure somewhere, maybe in Mexico City you might be able to buy a gun, but not in this city of almost 1.5 million residents. And the gun traffickers know it.
Where do ordinary Mexicans get their weapons? Most buy them from a 'friend' or a friend of a friend or cousin or uncle. Where the friend gets them is not talked about. But, it seems that drug cartels in Mexico are heavily involved in gun trafficking of military weapons and related hardware. And, who are these ordinary Mexicans? They range from people who work in factories as managers and senior managers, government workers, doctors, dentists and anyone with the financial means to buy a firearm. I even ran into a couple of government bureaucrats, one a lawyer for the federal government who owns firearms. He confirmed that people he knew in the government, some very highly ranked bureaucrats and politicians all own illegal firearms. The other works for the Mexican equivalent of the IRS. It's a way of life in Mexico. It seemed to me that you aren't in the 'in-crowd' in Mexico unless you own at least one firearm. I was amazed at the whole thing after believing for years that gun ownership in Mexico was non-existent. That is hardly the case.
All this flies in the face of news articles published by the U.S. media in the last week or two. Mexico's gun problems are a direct result of gun runners buying "assault weapons" in the U.S. and taking them into Mexico to arm drug cartels, says the U.S. media and government. That is a bunch of government and media nonsense. The cartels aren't arming themselves from U.S. gun stores with semi-auto AR15 and AK47 rifles. They've moved on up. Not to completely dismiss arms moving into Mexico from the U.S., but it is not as it seems when the U.S. media tells the story. The firearms moving across the border are semi-auto rifles and handguns sold to middle class or wealthy Mexicans seeking personal protection from criminals that have no connections in Mexico with gun runners. For the most part the wealthy in Mexico are targets of criminal elements, so they have no intention of connecting up with them to buy a self-defense firearm. You're better off buying a weapon from someone within the Mexican government than buying it from the criminal element, namely a drug cartel.
Cartels buy their arms from countries around the world, most any place where military weapons can be purchased on the black market, or from countries wishing to destabilize North America. They arm themselves from a worldwide black market of full auto military weapons including grenades, land mines and RPGs. They also "procure" their weapons from the less than savory from within the Mexican military.
The drug cartels can easily afford to fly their weaponry into Mexico using their own fleet of aircraft on to remote airfields, or land them on remote Mexican shores from their fleet of vessels. They do it with drugs all of the time. Drug cartels buying semi-auto AR15 or AK rifles from U.S. gun dealers is viewed as a joke by Mexico's drug cartel, most Mexicans, and unfortunately by the Mexican government. The only people fooled by all the political rhetoric are Americans listening to the likes of Attorney General Eric Holder and other anti-gun politicians.
Mexico has a gun problem, just like they have a drug problem and both the U.S. and Mexican governments are trying to place the blame on U.S. gun owners. U.S. gun owners aren't the problem. Mexico is the problem. The government is corrupt from the lowest level law enforcement officer shaking down American tourists for traffic violations, to officials and politicians highly placed within the Mexican government, including elements within the military. Everyone knows it. Everyone in Mexico knows it. Every law enforcement official in the U.S. knows it, and everyone in our government knows it. And anyone who has worked for any length of time within border cities and lived in the local community knows it. This is taking a Mexican problem, blaming the U.S. by turning it into a crisis in order further an agenda, and Eric Holder and President Obama knows it and they are taking advantage of it.
The next time you see a news report of illegal full-auto weapons and grenades being found here in the U.S., you know where they came from. It wasn't from a gun store in Tucson or Phoenix. The administration is right that gun trafficking along the U.S./Mexico border is a problem. Not only do we have drugs and illegal aliens coming in our southern border, but we also have military arms and explosives coming into our country illegally as well. That's the issue and our government is being disingenuous in its argument.
This AP news report published today is typical of what is going on. It is disgustingly biased and flat wrong: AP report for Detroit Free Press
Don't believe me and what I say? See what the Latin American Herald is saying about a recent arrest of cartel members and their weaponry in Mexico. No, the items listed weren't purchased at a gun store in Phoenix or Tucson. Grenades and RPGs are illegal in the U.S.: LAH Story
Great post.
:)
Beat me to it.
;)
stanlyonjr
03-25-09, 19:35
I lived in San Diego for 20+ years. That was always my argument. Some uninformed simpleton would speak up saying Mexico is stealing our guns or where supplying the Mexican gangs with gun's, and I would say where do I go here in the US to buy automatic weapons and grenades? Frigging morons!!
CNN special tonight with Anderson Cooper: The War Next Door. http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/
It will be interesting to see how he reports it as he is one of the better ones, IMO.
American drug use is what's causing Mexican drug violence.
Sorry, but this is a two dimensional statement. Nobody here forces those pieces of sh*t to do what they do down there, nor do they make them the sadistic killers that they are. You sound like an apologist for the cartels.
Crime is lucrative anywhere as long as you don't get caught. Make them fear us, it is the only way.
Gutshot John
03-25-09, 22:14
You sound like an apologist for the cartels.
You're a good guy, and I agree with almost everything else you said about sadistic killers, but I don't feel that that's really a fair statement. Without American drug money, they don't get the guns and they have no power to do with whatever it is they do. Supply and demand is an immutable law of economics. Our demand fuels the cartels supply. Without $50 billion in American drug money, they have no power.
That said, our guns and RKBA aren't the problem either, the money we give them to buy their guns might play a role. We bear some of the responsibility. It's not being an "apologist" to acknowledge our role in what is occurring. It's a sign of strength. Get rid of the profit motive and you get rid of the Cartel's reign of terror.
We bear some of the responsibility. It's not being an "apologist" to acknowledge our role in what is occurring. It's a sign of strength.
Please don't misunderstand, I know what both he and you are saying. That doesn't change the fact that the notion that we are the direct cause of the Mexican cartels is without a doubt two dimensional and inaccurate by definition, if not by the rule of common sense as well.
No one in Mexico is forced to join a drug cartel (well...maybe some here and there). Just because it may be convenient, and maybe the best thing going until you die a violent death six months later, doesn't mean we are the cause.
Tell me, as a thinking but poor man in Mexico, would you join a cartel that will have you do terrible things to other "humans" while risking your own life to an unbelievable extent? One that is also destroying your country from within? One that asks you to kill for money alone? Where do we draw a line of sanity here?
We buy what they sell, sure. But just a thought, maybe they should stop selling it if it means killing themselves and their country at the same time. No other way to get by these days?
Gutshot John
03-25-09, 22:33
That doesn't change the fact that the notion that we are the direct cause of the Mexican cartels is without a doubt two dimensional and inaccurate by definition, if not by the rule of common sense as well.
I understand you don't want Americans to be responsible but you're contradicting every economics class I've ever taken.
A "cartel" is essentially a business partnership, meant to control the means of production and distribution of a product.
If there is no demand for a product, you have no supply. Without drug money, you have no cartel.
I understand you don't want Americans to be responsible but you're contradicting every economics class I've ever taken.
A "cartel" is essentially a business partnership, meant to control the means of production and distribution of a product.
If there is no demand for a product, you have no supply. Without drug money, you have no cartel.
Ok, so why are there no US equivalents to the over the top cartels? Why no organized mass murder here on a similar scale if it is so lucrative? Maybe the laws and their enforcement have some effect on the common sense of the tempted individual? Just a thought.
Seriously, why are we to blame for their breakdown of law and order?
Gutshot John
03-25-09, 22:46
Ok, so why are there no US equivalents to the over the top cartels? Why no organized mass murder here on a similar scale if it is so lucrative? Maybe the laws and their enforcement have some effect on the common sense of the tempted individual? Just a thought.
In a sense you're quite right, but in another you're overlooking the obvious. You answered your own question... There are US equivalents and have been so for decades if not centuries... sometimes called the Mafia, sometimes Jamaicans, sometimes Bikers, sometimes Russians. They don't commit mass murder on such an obvious scale, but that's because business is more profitable if they fly under the radar. But make no mistake, they do exist, the demand for their illegal goods fuels their organizations and they are exceedingly violent. I can tell you stories about Russians in the US that would curl your hair.
Seriously, why are we to blame for their breakdown of law and order?
A separate question, we're responsible for creating the cartels, the cartels are responsible for the breakdown in law and order. We're not entirely responsible, but we are partially so.
In a sense you're quite right, but in another you're overlooking the obvious. You answered your own question... There are US equivalents and have been so for decades if not centuries... sometimes called the Mafia, sometimes Jamaicans, sometimes Bikers, sometimes Russians. They don't commit mass murder on such an obvious scale, but that's because business is more profitable if they fly under the radar.
Neither the Mafia, nor the Jamaicans, the Bikers, Russians, etc, have ever inflicted such damage to our society on the scale we are seeing in Mexico today. As well, I wholeheartedly believe that if they did they would be brought to their knees by the authorities sooner than later.
I don't want to bicker with you on this, I am just way uncomfortable believing we are to blame for their utter disaster of a situation down there. Therefore I must agree with the OP, it is absurd.
Perhaps they don't want to disrupt thier customer base; i.e., killing the goose that laid the golden egg, so to speak. As long as most of the violence stays on the Mexican side the US tolerates it and trys to "assist" the Mexicans.
But don't kid yourself, the violence is here in the US, just on a smaller scale and mostly all "inside" the trade. What do you think MS13 and others are all about?
If the violence spilled over in a big way, the cartels know the US could shut the border down tight if the will was there to do it. And they know the US police and army are better equiped, paid and trained than their Mexican counterparts.
The violence is simply competition for the billions of dollars available from US users and is aimed at competitors and Mexican officials that are trying to stop the flow of drugs. The beast was allowed to grow and now it is all about feeding the beast. And the beast is hungry.
How are we to blame for their greed?
The US is partly to blame because it is our citizens that feed it. Markets exist soley for the benefit of their customers. It's as true for drugs as it is anything else. Without customers (demand), the cartels (supply) have no reason to exist. Simple economics.
Edited to clarify poorly made point above: Markets, to exist long term, must benefit both the demand and supply sides. What I should that said above is that a market can not exist without meeting customer wants and needs. A supplier without buyers can not survive, just ask GM. But competitors thrive in underserved or poorly served markets. Ultimately, markets are all about meeting demand.
Sorry, but this is a two dimensional statement. Nobody here forces those pieces of sh*t to do what they do down there, nor do they make them the sadistic killers that they are. You sound like an apologist for the cartels.
Crime is lucrative anywhere as long as you don't get caught. Make them fear us, it is the only way.
You misunderstand my point. The same people that bemoan the state of things in Mexico are typically the same types that have a secret stash somewhere in their house or on their person. I find it ironic that magazines like Rolling Stone publish articles about how bad things are there while at the same time celebrating the drug culture that fuels what's going on there.
johnclark075
03-26-09, 07:04
So, since the recession hit there has been an increase in demand for Mexican drugs in the U.S.? Less money to spend = more drug buying??? Americans are eating out less now, but smoking, snorting, and popping more drugs???
More problems= more people trying to escape problems.
This is the same argument that blames the rape victim and not the rapist for the crime.
not even close.
The US is partly to blame because it is our citizens that feed it. Markets exist soley for the benefit of their customers. It's as true for drugs as it is anything else. Without customers (demand), the cartels (supply) have no reason to exist. Simple economics.
illegal drug use has been going on forever just about everywhere. the corruption allowed to seep through the mexican govt. is no different than the corruption here. the difference is in what drives the corruption. in mexico it's drug money,here in the u.s. it's lobbyist money. the problem with mexican drug cartels is a mexican problem period.
It's naive and overly simplistic to blame the current extreme cartel violence on U.S. drug purchases. I'm pretty sure the U.S. has been buying drugs from Mexico for decades and not just recently.
The operative word is partly, as in partly to blame. Demand is why suppliers exist.
Are we so foolish as to believe that the U.S. is the only country buying Mexican drugs?
No, but I would guess that the US market is the largest in the world making it worth fighting over.
Do you think that it's possible that the new U.S. administration is using the extreme cartel violence in Mexico as an excuse to re-introduce a new AWB?
...( Snip for brevity)......
No.
Some gun-grabbers would like to , but it won't work.
Right now , the new AWB is a hopeless lost cause. Smart politicians , including Mr. Obama , understood that reality months ago.
When Mr. Obama needed traction , gun control was one of 1st things to go under the bus.
Do you think that it's possible that the new U.S. administration is using the extreme cartel violence in Mexico as an excuse to re-introduce a new AWB? Since legal gun owners having proven themselves to be responsible citizens then maybe we're going to blame crime in another country as a means of attacking the U.S. 2nd Amendment. Just a thought...
the current administration is absolutely "laying the groundwork" for another awb.the premise is preposterous though.wayne lapierre was on glenn beck the other day and he said the weaponry that the cartels are that CAN be traced back to the u.s was given to the mexican government by our government.then their corrupt military sold it to the cartels.like mr. lapierre stated,trace the serial numbers and you'll see exactly where they originated from.the sick thing is,our government knows this already but they still try to push this crap as a pretext to take away our rights!every freedom loving american should be outraged at this intentional,out right lies designed to disarm us!
the problem with mexican drug cartels is a mexican problem period.
Do you really think cartel operatives and corrupt officials don't exist here?
So when the Sinaloa cartel recruits 13 year-old US citizens to become hitmen enforcers in the US and keeps them on reatiner it is a Mexican problem?
So when drug-related home invasions and exicutions take place in the US border states it is a Mexican problem?
How are drug addicted US citizens feeding their habit with crime in the US a Mexican problem?
I guess I'm missing something; I thought the extreme cartel violence was in response the the Mexican government attempt to crack down on them. Fighting for the U.S. market would imply that the extreme violence would be waged against other cartels and not against government, police, and military members.
It is both.
Do you propose that we cease backing and funding the Mexican government?
Just the opposite, I would rather the US government finally recognize the threat to our national and civil security and truely defend our border as well as assit Mexico in their fight. And Canada should be helping as well for the same reasons. It galls me how much we spend in Iraq and Afganistan and how little we spend on defending our own borders.
Lets not blame the victims for the criminal's actions. Junkies are victims of drug dealers.
Them why am I not one of their victims?
Who IS responsible for the cartel's extreme violence? THEY ARE. Questions? Your logic is akin to blaming the firearms and ammunition manufactures and not the criminal behind the trigger.
I am with you all the way. This apologetic nonsense is actually somewhat disturbing coming from some of the intelligent folks in this forum. I am baffled as to their logic, but so be it I guess. I will just respect their views while disagreeing wholeheartedly.
Still, I bet the cartel leaders would delighted to finding out we declare ourselves responsible for their atrocities. Maybe letters of apology from us Americans to the cartel leaders are in order next? Along with some warm chocolate chip cookies, perhaps, so they know we really care and feel very bad about ourselves?
Come on, guys. :rolleyes:
Robb Jensen
03-26-09, 09:11
A nice article from the Washington Times :
Gun bans off-limits in drug war (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/26/gun-bans-off-limits-in-drug-war/)
This apologetic nonsense is actually somewhat disturbing coming from some of the intelligent folks in this forum. I am baffled as to their logic, but so be it I guess.
I am likewise baffled by those not seeing the link between demand and supply. I don't apologise for either the illegal drug user or the violent suppliers. I would like to see both wiped out.
Back on topic
A nice article from the Washington Times
"I don't think the solution to Mexico's problems is to limit Second Amendment gun rights in this country," said Sen. John Cornyn, Texas Republican, chairman of the National Republican Senatorial Committee. "What we can do is help our Mexican friends enforce their own laws."
+1
I wonder why it is that every time I see picture of the so-called "weapons from the US" I always see hand genrades and RPGs, neither of which I can ever find in stock at my local gun shop or gun show?
Looks spot on to me:
A nice article from the Washington Times :
Gun bans off-limits in drug war (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/26/gun-bans-off-limits-in-drug-war/)
The gun-grabbers can't get any real traction out of the tragedy in Mexico.
Mark Bowden's book: "Killing Pablo" .
www.amazon.com
A Mexicanized "Los Pepes" could be a good thing.
:cool:
Ok , hopefully without the rival cartel stuff. It was a tough neighborhood.
;)
Gutshot John
03-26-09, 11:03
Neither the Mafia, nor the Jamaicans, the Bikers, Russians, etc, have ever inflicted such damage to our society on the scale we are seeing in Mexico today.
I'm sorry but that's just not so. Mexican gangs have been violent over the past 5-10 years, but they've only gotten that way as the profits from drugs have increased radically. Moreover the overwhelming numbers of victims are invariably mexican and usually associated gangsters. The impact on law-abiding Americans is usually through secondary consequences. There is a national security issue, but that's a far different issue than societal consequences.
When you compare the damage done by gangsters in the US over decades or even centuries, there is no comparison as to the damage done to our society. They have killed many times the number of Americans and innocents that the current Mexican drug war has done. Just because it's not in your face every day on Fox news, doesn't mean it isn't there.
I'm all for sending "Los Pepes" into mexico and cutting off a few heads, but that's only a short-term fix, someone else will step into their place until we do something to address the underlying problem. So long as we supply $50 billion in drug money/year, there will always be drugs, there will always be drug gangs and there will always be drug gangs getting weapons with the money they make. It's not only basic economics, it's basic common sense. People talk about it's apologism for cartels? That's living in denial.
losbronces
03-26-09, 11:29
illegal drug use has been going on forever just about everywhere. the corruption allowed to seep through the mexican govt. is no different than the corruption here. the difference is in what drives the corruption. in mexico it's drug money,here in the u.s. it's lobbyist money. the problem with mexican drug cartels is a mexican problem period.
Actually drug money has and likely still does lead to corruption in the U.S. as well. The entire police department of Deming, New Mexico has been turned over a couple of times due to its members serving as informants or worse for the illicit drug trade. Many police departments in southern New Mexico pay less than a living wage. This tends to attract less than the best candidates. Because the local police agencies and sheriff's departments have been involved with drug interdiction, it is easier to pay them off to get information regarding the activity of DEA, state police, BP, etc. Due to the amount of money that is available, corruption of individuals in the various U.S. agencies will continue to happen, at least that is my opinion.
So, we need to help enforce the laws of other countries (non-peacekeeping mission)?
There - fixed it for you. The answer is yes and we have done it before.
There - fixed it for you. The answer is yes and we have done it before.
Ok, maybe so. Rationalize for me if you will how that in any way means we are directly responsible for their massive mess. Anyone here can choose to deal drugs and make money, but most don't for reasons I will not explain since I am not speaking to 2nd graders.
Mexico is out of control because law and order there has broken down on an unprecedented scale. Money, and greed (remember that non-existent word from a recent thread?) will generate degenerates anywhere they are allowed to flourish. Mexico is now one of those places. Cartels have infiltrated almost every police department and even some of the military. Kidnappings are the norm and then some with dozens reported (and even more not reported) every day. Heads are found everywhere nearly everyday, and many of those heads are those of the police and military. This been happening here in the US and I missed it somehow? :rolleyes:
We have problems here, sure. But nothing like there. The comparisons are very flawed when comparing day to day activities. Christ, they have the equivalent of the historically revered St. Valentines Day massacre three times a week there.
Again, two dimensional thinking. It is very reminiscent of the example used by Nobody. Like blaming guns for the actions of criminals. That's simplistic thinking any way you look at it.
Remember, a gun is an inanimate object, just as the dollar bill is. Both wield power. Saying one inanimate object can make someone do something bad is a scary line to be crossing in a firearm forum.
Gutshot John
03-26-09, 14:58
We have problems here, sure. But nothing like there. The comparisons are very flawed when comparing day to day activities. Christ, they have the equivalent of the historically revered St. Valentines Day massacre three times a week there.
St. Valentine's day massacre was noteworthy for being one of the first...hardly the last. Pretending that Mexican gangs are somehow a greater threat to society than organized crime that has existed and flourished for decades is whistling past the graveyard. They're getting a lot of attention, but they won't last as long as the others.
The same scale of murder has been replicated MANY times over in the US with any number of gangs, it just became so common that during the 80s especially it barely rated a mention on the evening news. The running joke on the evening news in the late 80s would be something like "8 people killed in gang violence...now sports".
Miami in the early 1980s for example. I'd recommend a documentary called "Cocaine Cowboys" to get a better appreciation. Detroit? New York? Washington? LA? Oakland? Houston? Baltimore? Chicago? With peaks and valleys, these cities have averaged several murders a day for decades and they're not the only ones and that's the murders your hear about. The most violent gang in the US, MS-13 isn't even Mexican (salvadoran) and intel indicates that they have met with AQ.
If you want to get rid of these gangs in the US or in Mexico, the issue remains the same...get rid of the illicit profits that fuel the violence. Without these profits they have less motive to murder the innocent and less means to accomplish those murders.
Miami in the early 1980s for example. Detroit? New York? Washington? LA? Oakland? Houston? Baltimore? Chicago? With peaks and valleys, these cities have averaged several murders a day for decades and they're not the only ones and that's the murders your hear about.
You forgot my city, good old Philadelphia. ;)
Ok, you got me there regarding the massacre. Bad example.
But what about the extent and frequency of the killing these past two years? What about the heads found on dance floors and in front of police stations? The level of police corruption? The massive kidnapping industry? Tijuana was a lucrative tourist attraction, now it is a wasteland. Where is this happening here again? I can't overlook these facts. How can you, my very intelligent friend?
Most importantly, what about the overall example of blaming inanimate objects for peoples behavior? Isn't what this argument really comes down to?
Gutshot John
03-26-09, 15:17
You forgot my city, good old Philadelphia. ;)
DOH... though to be fair I try as hard as I can to pretend Philly is part of NJ. :p
But what about the extent and frequency of the killing these past two years? What about the heads found on dance floors and in front of police stations? The level of police corruption? The massive kidnapping industry? Tijuana was a lucrative tourist attraction, now it is a wasteland. Where is this happening here again? I can't overlook these facts. How can you, my very intelligent friend?
I'm not overlooking that at all. It's a problem that needs to be addressed, but what is the source of corruption? You can't bribe someone without the drug money.
I actually feel bad for these cops...I mean what would you do? "Take this $10K or we kill everyone in your family" You're one guy against a $50Billion/year business? Get rid of the $10K part of the equation and law enforcement will get a lot more effective.
If however the cartels keep killing on this scale, they will make a lot of enemies, who will eventually organize something like a Los Pepes death squad. Terror as a tool is likewise subject to law of diminishing returns. Eventually people will have had enough and want revenge.
Most importantly, what about the overall example of blaming inanimate objects for peoples behavior? Isn't what this argument really comes down to?
There I agree 100%. I'm not saying and have never said that our gun laws bear that responsibility, I'm saying that our illegal drug use does.
I actually feel bad for these cops...I mean what would you do? "Take this $10K or we kill everyone in your family" You're one guy against a $50Billion/year business?
I agree 1,000%. Just to be a good, honorable cop there, especially one of rank, must be terrifying.
However, it only shows the extent of their overall breakdown. Again, really not our fault.
IMHO.
So, you're saying that the Mexican government has publicly consented to allowing its citizens to be arrested by American police officers operating in Mexico for violating their laws?
Of course not. Do you think that is the only way we can help?
Gutshot John
03-26-09, 15:56
Again, really not our fault.IMHO.
Without $50 billion/year in drug money, it's awfully difficult to offer bribes.
To be corrupt they have to offer a carrot, not simply the stick.
However, it only shows the extent of their overall breakdown. Again, really not our fault.
I have never said it was every US citizen's fault. Nor are our gun laws to blame. What I have been say is the same as gutshot is saying.
I don't consider myself to responsible in any way. But I do hold the doctors, lawers, and other so-called professionals that I know (didn't say they were friends) who snort up before and during various social events at least partially responsible because they are feeding the beast. It isn't the dollar that is responsible, it is the people who use illegal drugs and send their dollars to the cartels that are partially responsible.
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2844/who****ingcares.jpg (http://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=who****ingcares.jpg)
Gutshot John
03-26-09, 16:23
If you don't buy illegal drugs nor supply arms to the cartels, than you bear ZERO moral responsibility.
That said, we all sometimes have to man-up and do the right thing, even if it isn't exactly fair.
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2844/who****ingcares.jpg (http://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=who****ingcares.jpg)
Considering the critical nature of the situation, I would be interested to hear why you find the discussion laughable. We won't change shit here, I know. But since Clinton has already publicly assessed guilt to us as well, it doesn't mean it isn't worthy of thought or debate.
Personally, I am already very tired for being blamed for their slop just because they are slaves to our inanimate dollar. Any loser can be a slave to anything that appeals to them enough.
Even a gun.
Considering the critical nature of the situation, I would be interested to hear why you find the discussion laughable. We won't change shit here, I know. But since Clinton has already publicly assessed guilt to us as well, it doesn't mean it isn't worthy of thought or debate.
Personally, I am already very tired for being blamed for their slop just because they are slaves to our inanimate dollar. Any loser can be a slave to anything that appeals to them enough.
Even a gun.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/the-banana/485830304/
Gutshot John
03-26-09, 17:51
But since Clinton has already publicly assessed guilt to us
I concede that was pretty f'd up.
Any loser can be a slave to anything that appeals to them enough.
Even a gun.
BLASPHEMER STONE HIM!!!! :p
http://www.flickr.com/photos/the-banana/485830304/
The way I address a thread regarding a topic that has real relevance in the current world, yet has no importance to me (however unlikely), is I ignore it.
Be great if you did the same with this one. No need for your remarks.
The way I address a thread regarding a topic that has real relevance in the current world, yet has no importance to me (however unlikely), is I ignore it.
Be great if you did the same with this one. No need for your remarks.
You asked. I'm not going to get sucked into debating the relevance of this thread as you are free to do what you please. I'm also free to tease you. Get over it and thicken up. What's with you lately?
You asked. I'm not going to get sucked into debating the relevance of this thread as you are free to do what you please. I'm also free to tease you. Get over it and thicken up. What's with you lately?
Actually, I was going to ask you the exact same thing regarding your "teasing". No big deal, though.
I honestly do care about the disaster down there and it's side effects here. That's the reason I am commenting. Not complicated, but maybe I should find a better use for my time.
Either way, you are picking a strange thread to chastise, if you ask me.
I am likewise baffled by those not seeing the link between demand and supply. I don't apologise for either the illegal drug user or the violent suppliers. I would like to see both wiped out.
who really cares about supply and demand. the bottom line is our borders are open. whether it's drugs or terrorists slipping through. i'm not taking any blame for the weak mexican govt. hell, i'm not taking blame for OUR weak govt. they need to tighten the borders up. adding 100 more border agents like our new homeland security wench just did will do absolutely nothing.
weak border = illegal aliens
some come here to work, some come here to deal drugs. kick them all out. apply like everybody else.
Needless to say I personally don't give two flying sh*ts about their issues in comparison to my constitutional rights.
this would be the cheapest and most efficeint solution to this and many other border related issues. people will always sneak things across the border, a wall would just make it hard enough for it to not be a freakin national emergency. THIS IS THE ANSWER!
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq293/badka2ma/prison_wall.jpg
30 cal slut
03-27-09, 08:54
this would be the cheapest and most efficeint solution to this and many other border related issues. people will always sneak things across the border, a wall would just make it hard enough for it to not be a freakin national emergency. THIS IS THE ANSWER!
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq293/badka2ma/prison_wall.jpg
just what we need, another expensive maginot line.
you know, mexican drug smugglers have access to boats and home-made submarines.
.
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