Thumbs Forward Grip: Locked Elbows?

[phixion]

I have been playing with the thumbs forward grip and I like it a lot. When I grip the pistol with my thumbs forward and extend my arms, my elbows have a tendency to lock out. Is locking your elbows an improper shooting technique?

It seems unnatural to keep my elbows slightly bent especially when my off-hand thumb and wrist are locked in the forward position. If locked elbows aren't a result of the thumbs forward grip, could it be my stance that is forcing me to lock them out?

*What is your opinion on the "push/pull" aspect I hear about? Push 40% with your strong hand and pull 60% with your weak hand.

I hope this post was clear. Any help is appreciated.

Thanks in advance

[Robb Jensen]

Your elbows shouldn't be locked.
I don't like the push/pull deal...that's Weaver.

Isosceles isn't push pull.

[ZDL]

Isosceles shooter on static range and I do not use push/pull. My support hand does the majority of the grip while my dominant hand stays relatively relaxed so there is no excess tension on the trigger finger.

[YVK]

My recollection from LAV's instructions is that elbows should be slightly bent in static position, and bent some more when shooting on the move.
Another advice I've heard elsewhere was to slightly roll elbows out to increase clamping action on the grip.

[VooDoo6Actual]

good thread.

[Heavy Metal]

My recollection from LAV's instructions is that elbows should be slightly bent in static position, and bent some more when shooting on the move.
Another advice I've heard elsewhere was to slightly roll elbows out to increase clamping action on the grip.

Dave Pennington has given that advice. Should feel it in your Pecs a bit.

[ToddG]

I have been playing with the thumbs forward grip and I like it a lot. When I grip the pistol with my thumbs forward and extend my arms, my elbows have a tendency to lock out. Is locking your elbows an improper shooting technique?

Locking your elbows is the most natural reaction and what you will most likely do under stress. However, it is not advisable to practice that way on purpose because it places substantially more stress on your joints. Some bend to the elbows is good. Different people teach different ways of accomplishing this but in my experience the best solution will vary from shooter to shooter.


*What is your opinion on the "push/pull" aspect I hear about? Push 40% with your strong hand and pull 60% with your weak hand.

Are you talking about grip pressure (how hard to you squeeze) or isometric tension (push/pull)?

I teach a simple approach to grip pressure. Given that we know Job #1 is to depress the trigger without disrupting sight alignment, you should grip as tight as you can without interfering with that process. So for the strong hand, grip as tightly as you can without causing your hand muscles to flex sympathetically as you press the trigger. For the weak hand, grip as tightly as you can without inducing a tremor. For most folks, that should mean substantially tighter grip on the gun with the weak hand.

Isometric tension comes and goes as a favored/disfavored technique. I suggest you play with it a bit and see if it works for you personally. Get a shot timer and measure whether you're faster or slower, more accurate or less, when shooting that way. As with most things, it can vary from person to person. For a long time I believed (and taught) that isometric tension was bad but over the past year I've begun to reconsider that approach. A slight amount of isometric tension can help some people maintain better control of the gun in recoil. The trick is regulating that tension consistently ... which is why many people tell you not to do it.

The "elbows out" primarily helps keep your grip locked properly on the gun, especially when shooting more powerful calibers. The elbows go out and you use your pectoral muscles to push inward on the gun from either side. Not to sound like a broken record, but different people will get different levels of benefit from this.

[blackscot]

That's basically how I've been shooting for ~25 years, although without the arm-lock thing.

What the arms do depends on the shooting scenario. I shoot IDPA and most of my practice is geared around that. So, shooting around corners and other positions are the norm. The arms do what they have to for whatever the situation dictates.

Always thumbs forward though. Keeping them down is strictly for revolvers (which conversely is how I shoot mine).

[George Mac]

Does anyone have the link to the Rob Leatham video that explained the use of this grip on a 1911? I have been looking around and cant find it.

[LittleRedToyota]

i personally do not like locking my elbows. at least most of the better IPSC shooters i know do not lock their elbows either.

one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet that is, imho, extremely important in shooting isoceles with a thumbs forward grip is locking down your support wrist. i find this is very helpful in quickly and consistently bringing the gun back on target. your wrist should be bent all the way "down" (as far as it will go) so that the muscles on the "bottom" of your forearm are contracted and exerting force while the muscles on the "top" of your forearm are relaxed and not exerting force. this is good for two reasons.

1. you are applying force to bring the gun back down after muzzle flip while not applying any force that contributes to bring the gun up (and exaggerating the muzzle flip).

2. because it is at the extreme end of the range of motion, you kind of hit a "stop" there automatically. you do not have to re-find some arbitrary balance point between the tension of the muscles on the top of your forearm vs. those on the bottom.

if, while you have the gun gripped, you unwrap your fingers on your support hand, they should point at an angle toward the ground rather than straight ahead. if you look at the gun from the top while you have it gripped, the tip of your weak side thumb should be roughly as a far forward relative to the frame as is your trigger finger when it is indexed along the frame. you should also try to get as much of the palm of your support hand in contact with the grip of the gun as possible. and the entire grip should be as high on the pistol as possible.

at least this is what i have been taught and what seems to work well for me. ymmv.

[Shadow1198]

I'm still trying to figure out the "proper" way to make fast follow up shots with higher recoiling calibers like .45acp. I do the typical thumbs forward isosceles. Usually with most 9mm's it's fairly easy for me to control the recoil while making fast follow up shots and keeping the gun under control. However shooting my P220 and many other 45's, I've noticed that I really just can't seem to keep the gun under control nearly as well unless I just pretty much death grip it and significantly increase the tension in my shoulders, elbows, forearms, and wrists. When I do it that way, I can control the recoil, follow through more quickly, and get shots on target accurately and more quickly however it has pretty much my entire upper body under significant tension, which just doesn't seem right to me. There has to be an easier way though, or something with the physical mechanics I'm overlooking as I watch countless videos of pros shooting and they don't seem to be in near the amount of physical exertion I have to use, plus they shoot 10x better and faster of course. ;) Just having the support wrist locked forward just simply does not feel like enough to me with 45acp. Unless I am gripping the gun pretty darn hard, or just all out death gripping it, it still feels like my support hand grip doesn't want to stay on the gun. I'm not sure if maybe my hand/finger strength isn't up to the challenge or what. So far I've managed to get down the front sight as the "speedometer" thing and I think I'm doing well overall. Though I still am not happy with how my grip is and how much tension I am finding I need to reach the speed at which I'm at, which isn't too terribly fast (~.25-.35 splits I think).

One question I have is whether it's conducive or not to have your shoulders "locked" and/or if your elbows should be bent, but the tension increased in them so that they are effectively "locked" in a bent position? I hope that makes sense. Where I'm at now, I've tried experimenting with a ton of different areas in my upper body and various tension levels. How I'm shooting now, I find that I usually tense up my shoulders, elbows, forearms, triceps, whatever other arm muscles I can't remember, and wrists and while my arms are bent at a natural and comfortable extension the whole "package" is pretty much locked up. Damn, sometimes all the physical mechanics and little intricacies get annoying. ;)

[chadbag]

The LAV and MD pistol classes I have scheduled this year should be interesting.

I have "weaver muscle memory" and have problems with isoceles. I also do the isometric tension thing (as part of the "weaver muscle memory" thing).

Just comes auto-naturally to me. Probably because I learned handgun shooting originaly in the mid 90s when I think Weaver was what was taught most of the time, or at least emphasized.

I know the "Gunsite Handgun 101" type class our tactical group had in NH (invited a Gunsite instructor out to give their basic pistol class) showed all techniques (weaver, isoceles, etc) but stressed Weaver if I remember right (was 10 years ago).

[ToddG]

Unless I am gripping the gun pretty darn hard, or just all out death gripping it, it still feels like my support hand grip doesn't want to stay on the gun.

Rather than using your hand muscles, think about using your pectorals. Try to push your palms together (though they're on opposite sides of the gun) by tightening your pecs. For a lot of people, this really helps keep the hands together during recoil.


to reach the speed at which I'm at, which isn't too terribly fast (~.25-.35 splits I think).

There's a big difference between a .35 split and a .25 split. If you can consistently get .25 splits and achieve hits on a reasonable sized target at 7-10yd, you're doing fine. Getting down to the .20 range requires substantial training effort that may or may not be worth the time and money depending on your goals.

Also note that when we're talking about splits, we're talking about on-demand repeated strings of fire. Just about anyone can pull a fast "split" on the so-called double tap if using a big enough, close enough target. Aiming and recoil management go out the door and the shooter just hammers the trigger as fast as he can. The real measure of your control is the ability to recover and fire another fast shot over and over again. That's what Bill Drills are for.


Just comes auto-naturally to me. Probably because I learned handgun shooting originaly in the mid 90s when I think Weaver was what was taught most of the time, or at least emphasized.

Late 90's was when Weaver finally started to come under serious attack. While the Iso type stances were dominating IPSC/USPSA, there was still a huge contingent of "that aint combat!" types who wanted to pretend that Weaver somehow came into its own when bullets started flying. A lot of those folks started shooting IDPA and quickly saw that even "tactical" people shooting the "tactical game" did better with a squared up symmetrical stance.

Switching from Weaver to Iso (or similar) technique does take time and effort. A lot of people simply cannot handle the ego hit of taking three steps backwards to start all over again with a new grip, new stance, etc. Those people will just sit back and be happy with the plateau they're on.

[Shadow1198]

Cool, thanks for the advice Todd! Yeah, I'm probably more like ~.35 splits (I need to stop procrastinating and get a timer) and usually maintain a fist sized group or slightly larger at ~7yds, though I still need to work on consistency quite a bit as I still get the occasional short stroke and trigger finger freeze.

Hmm, I'm going to have to try using my pecs more next time around. Thanks for mentioning that! Come to think of it, I can't remember ever using much in the way of side to side pressure through my pecs. I am normally just squeezing side to side with the support hand itself as opposed to "pushing" both hands together as you described. Also, most of my upper body tension is basically directed outwards towards the gun with probably little to no side to side pressure from the pecs. It's amazing the effects you can have just by making a few minor physical changes in positioning, tension, etc. I need to eat my spinach and work out my weak, flabby upper body. ;) lol

[ToddG]

Cool, thanks for the advice Todd! Yeah, I'm probably more like ~.35 splits (I need to stop procrastinating and get a timer) and usually maintain a fist sized group or slightly larger at ~7yds, though I still need to work on consistency quite a bit as I still get the occasional short stroke and trigger finger freeze.

If you are not using a shot timer, you have absolutely no way of assessing your splits. Sometimes we do things that feel fast but are actually quite slow, and when we are going the fastest we ordinarily feel like things are going slowly.

If you are short stroking the gun, you need to practice a proper trigger release & prep as part of your recoil recovery. It sounds like you are trying to ride the sear engagement too tightly, which often leads to trigger freeze especially if you go from a short reset gun (like a 1911 or Glock) to a stock P220 with its much longer reset.

[NCPatrolAR]

Does anyone have the link to the Rob Leatham video that explained the use of this grip on a 1911? I have been looking around and cant find it.

I havent seen one with Leatham. Were you possibly thinking of the one done by AFN with Todd Jarrett? If so, here is the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

[decodeddiesel]

This is a good thread indeed. I am especially guilty of the Weaver muscle memory thing. My first real pistol experience was learning to shoot an M9 in the Army in the mid-90s. Trying to re-teach myself Iso is very challenging, but it can be done. Also I too need to get a timer. If I can make a suggestion, I think a lot of what you're trying to explain Todd could be illustrated very well with some pictures.

[diverge]

Matt Burkett (http://www.doublealpha.biz/tip_burkett.htm#%E2%80%A2Grip%20and%20Stance%E2%80%A2)

Grip 1 (http://www.oregonshooting.com/vids/spgrip1.wmv)

Grip 2 (http://www.oregonshooting.com/vids/grip2.wmv)

[ROCKET20_GINSU]

I have been playing with the thumbs forward grip and I like it a lot. When I grip the pistol with my thumbs forward and extend my arms, my elbows have a tendency to lock out. Is locking your elbows an improper shooting technique?


If it helps you and works better then keep it. It works for dave sevigny, who shoots with one of the most locked out elbow positions I've ever seen, and he can arguably be called the best glock shooter on the planet =)

I am no expert however...

When I coach people to start with the modern Isosceles I find that its easiest to have them push all the way out and lock out, fire a couple of strings, then start bringing their elbows back (bent) until it is comfortable. Alot of the guys I work with have shot weaver for a loooong time, so you have to overcompensate in the beginning to offset their bodies natural tendancy to switch back to weaver.

From my understanding of modern isosceles thru reading brian enos' book and competing in USPSA for a couple of years there is "supposed" to be a slight bend in the elbows to aid in recoil control. That being said, if it helps "you" get safe hits fast then there is nothing wrong with locking your elbows out, let your accuracy and timer be the judge. I think its by experimenting, and finding what works while preserving accuracy and increasing speed that we improve our shooting. So if some crazy good shooter comes along and suggests something else try it out =) give it a chance if it works keep it, if it doesn't no worries!

Safe shooting!
GU

[chadbag]

Late 90's was when Weaver finally started to come under serious attack. While the Iso type stances were dominating IPSC/USPSA, there was still a huge contingent of "that aint combat!" types who wanted to pretend that Weaver somehow came into its own when bullets started flying. A lot of those folks started shooting IDPA and quickly saw that even "tactical" people shooting the "tactical game" did better with a squared up symmetrical stance.

Switching from Weaver to Iso (or similar) technique does take time and effort. A lot of people simply cannot handle the ego hit of taking three steps backwards to start all over again with a new grip, new stance, etc. Those people will just sit back and be happy with the plateau they're on.

I have no emotional attachment to Weaver, just an body auto-response to a handgun (and rifle though I am working on that after my PR class) being put in my hands. And being a slight fat body (fat gut mainly -- the rest is OK) the squared up shooting stances never felt comfortable for me. But I am willing to learn. That is why I have a LAV and MD class in handgun shooting this year....

I don't shoot competitively and have little interest in doing so (for various probably bad reasons) but am interested in real life shooting skills that will help me in bad situations.

[Aubrey]

Locking the elbows will adversely affect accuracy while shooting on the move.

[Halfbreed_83]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQgLmQl1zDw

I was originally taught how to shoot using the "cup in saucer" grip when I was 9 years old. I haven't shot in over 7 years and this video really helped me learn the newer thumbs forward grip. After getting used to it I like it much more than my old grip. I don't know if this video will help you but maybe it will.

[Eric Torres]

After reading this thread you should all consider attending if you can.


Magpul Dynamics

Magpul Handgun

Pueblo West, Colorado - June 13 - 15, 2009

PWSA Members: $500

Non-PWSA Members: $575 (The PWSA charges $25 per day range fee. The $75 range fee will be collected on the first day of class)



Course Description

This course is a combination of Dynamic Handgun 1 & 2 and is designed to give the beginner or novice shooter the proper handgun fundamentals or the advanced shooter a refresher in the fundamentals and will progress into intermediate / advanced shooting skills and techniques. Starting with combat mindset, the class covers:

-Proper gear selection and placement
-Shooting stance
-The draw
-Proper grip
-Axis and mechanics of recoil
-Grip, sight alignment, sight picture
-Trigger control
-Speed reloads
-Tactical reloads
-The four (4) primary malfunctions
-Strong and weak hand shooting
-Shooting on the move
-Situation specific shooting positions
-Terminal ballistics
-Rapid threat analysis and acquisition
-Shooting on the move
-Multiple target engagement
-Natural and improvised shooting positions
-Barricade shooting
-Concealed shooting
-Individual and team confidence enhancement shooting drills
-Individual and team live fire stress courses


Hardware/Kit

A functional and practical handgun chambered in 9mm, .40 cal, or .45 ACP. If available, a spare weapon system is also an excellent idea. A cleaning kit and tools that are compatible with the weapon system(s) in question is also a must. Each student should have a minimum of 5 working magazines. Sometimes magazines will make it in your dump bag and sometimes they won't. If they hit the ground they can become fouled, causing weapon malfunctions and time off the line.

-Note pad, and pen/pencil
-Clothing suited to strenuous type activity as well as being seasonally appropriate
-Appropriate foot wear
-Rain gear / cold weather gear (seasonal)
-Ear pro (electronic preferred)
-Eye pro, which wraps around
-Clear lenses for night shoots
-Baseball style hat recommended
-A holster and magazine pouch that will retain equipment when moving
-Secondary weapon mounted or handheld light
-Spare bulbs and batteries
-Tools that work on your weapon
-Weapons lube
-Water hydrating device
-Knee and elbow pads (optional)
-Gloves (optional)
-Insect Repellent (optional)
-An open mind
-2,000 rounds of ammo


To register for this class call 1.877.4MAGPUL ext 111 or email jbeard@magpul.com

For local information pertaining to the class, contact Jeff at Carpenter0311@msn.com (ZERO before the311@msn.com, not the letter "o")
Reply With Quote

[YVK]

Eric, my communications with Justin two weeks ago led me to believe that this class has been filled for a while.

[Blinking Dog]

Locking the elbows will adversely affect accuracy while shooting on the move.

+1
Static range, flat feet locked elbows seems ok. But see what happens when you start moving.

[Failure2Stop]

I like to look at the entire platform during diagnostic work. Sometimes a shooter can be trying to do what you are telling him, but something as simple as having uneven weight distribution can detrimentally affect other aspects of the platform.

[decodeddiesel]

I like to look at the entire platform during diagnostic work. Sometimes a shooter can be trying to do what you are telling him, but something as simple as having uneven weight distribution can detrimentally affect other aspects of the platform.

Agreed. This is why it is always best for even expert shooters to take classes in order to have their form critiqued by another expert. One small inconsistency or error can screw the whole thing up.

[ToddG]

Agreed. This is why it is always best for even expert shooters to take classes in order to have their form critiqued by another expert. One small inconsistency or error can screw the whole thing up.

QFT ... I tell folks all the time, "What classes have you taken recently?" is a question they should ask any prospective teacher.

[Cardiac Nurse]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQgLmQl1zDw

I was originally taught how to shoot using the "cup in saucer" grip when I was 9 years old. I haven't shot in over 7 years and this video really helped me learn the newer thumbs forward grip. After getting used to it I like it much more than my old grip. I don't know if this video will help you but maybe it will.

thanks for the link...grip has been an issue for me. I have small hands and am currently using a revolver. I watched the link you mentioned and then watched the other video where the revolver grip is reviewed.

[Halfbreed_83]

^ NP man, This vid really helped me out and I was hoping it would help others out as well :D