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rob_s
03-29-09, 07:30
I just responded to a thread about whether or not to install an o-ring under the extractor in a brand new Colt 6920. I got the impression that the gun hadn't even been fired yet, or if it had it was only fired for a few rounds. I've also been noticing more and more threads about "my first carbine is on the way, what rail/stock/widget should I buy for it first?" This seems out of sequence to me.

When I first get a new firearm, or finish assembling a new AR, the first order of business is to go shoot it as-is. Even if it's just bench time to check function etc. I don't want to get down some long path of installing rails, and optics, and new triggers, etc. only to find that the gun has problems. Now I have to figure out if the problem is one of my widgets or the factory parts, and if I have to send it back in to the factory I have to strip off all my widgets. GO SHOOT THE GUN to check for function.

I'm also not sure how people know, right off the bat, that they want (need?) a rail system, a new stock, a new grip... Personally the first thing I change out on any AR is the A2 grip, but that's because I know that the finger groove makes me NUTS. How do I know this? I spent all of TD1 in an EAG class shooting with the A2 grip. But for a lot of guys the A2 works fine, great even. I'm that way with an M4 stock. I see no reason to change it out, and it certainly would be far from the first thing I'd change out. How do I know that the M4 stock works for me? Spent all of TD3 at a Cumberland Tactics class shooting with the M4 stock. GO SHOOT THE GUN and see if any of the stock parts really cause you a problem or not.

The rail system is a real kicker for me. I see "look at my new carbine" posts of a brand new Colt 6920 where the handguards have been changed out for a rail system ($250+/-), the pistol grip has been changed out ($30+/-) and the stock has been replaced ($100+/-), often with a full set of Troy flipup irons ($250+/-). Now, I ain't going to begrudge anyone the grip, but otherwise that's $600 worth of stuff on that gun that is doing NOTHING to improve your ability to get hits quickly and these changes are often done without ever having fired a shot. Take $450 of that $600, get in touch with G&R Tactical and pick yourself up an Aimpiont C3 in ADM mount for $450, cut down the carry handle that came with the gun into a rear BUIS, stick with the stock FSB, and use part of that $150 you saved to pick yourself up a BFG Victory Sling for $35 or a Boonie Packer for $15, and get out there and GO SHOOT THE GUN.

This isn't a rant, this is intended and advice. My first AR(s) after the ban sunset I did exactly what I see a lot of other folks doing. I bought an LMT 14.5" upper, had a Gemtech silencer mount permanently installed, had a Larue 12.0 rail and lo-pro gas block installed, got myself a Magpul M93B stock and Tango Down pistol and vert grips, slapped an Aimpoint and Troy rear sight on it... all without ever having fired a shot. And then, just to compound matters, after only getting a few rounds downrange with this beast, I went and "built" a whole 'nother carbine with Daniel Defense in place of the Larue, Vltor in place of the Magpul, Ergo in place of the Tango Down, Eotech in place of the Aimpoint... and months after my initial purchase I still had maybe 500 rounds combined through the pair.

See, I thought I "needed" all that crap on there. I thought I "needed" a rail system and vert grip. and frankly, I was motivated by a"this looks COOL" mentality as much as anything else. I even carried some of these preconceived notions over to my first two Colt projects (a 6520 and 6933, see "a tale of two carbines" on my website).

After all of this, and all those thousands of dollars down the drain, guess what I'm shooting these days? A plain old LMT lower, into which I dropped a G&R lower parts kit, installed a MOE stock and Grip, and topped it off with a BCM midlength upper and Aimpoint C3 in ADM mount. I went with the MOE parts because I assembled this rifle from scratch. If I had started with a factory complete gun I'd probably still have the M4 stock on it, although I would have still changed out the grip due to personal lessons learned. I figured out a way to mount a white light on a small section of rail on the handguards, the key to which is that I can take that light off there when I don't need it or don't want the added weight. I put a $15 Boonie Packer sling on it, and secured it in the front with a BFG UWL at the delta ring. The base gun without optic was under $1k, $1500 tops as it sits. and you know what? it does everything my $3k "wonder guns" do but at half the price. Lesson learned. Now whenever I have a match or class or drills night it's that BCM gun that I reach for. Reach PAST all those $3k+ carbines and get the plain 'ole functional boring BCM.

GO SHOOT THE GUN, and figure out what YOU want or need to do to improve it.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/BCM/DSC_2955-1.jpg


In fact, I liked it so much I outfitted another 6933 almost identically. that Redimag and BAD are coming off shortly. If I had this one to do over again it would still have the M4 stock and MOE pistol grip on it in place of the CTR and MIAD.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/6933-04.jpg

Dave L.
03-29-09, 07:40
Agree with the above. Also, when it comes to accessories, try someone else's gun that already has the parts on it. It may save you $100's of dollars.

Iraqgunz
03-29-09, 08:04
Rob,

I agree to a certain point. I would say that this advice REALLY applies to "newbies" that have very little to no AR experience who get caught up in the customization black hole. Even more importantly when people need to think before they start adding buffers, springs, etc...without having fired a shot to know whether or not their weapon even functions.

rob_s
03-29-09, 08:10
Rob,

I agree to a certain point. I would say that this advice REALLY applies to "newbies" that have very little to no AR experience who get caught up in the customization black hole. Even more importantly when people need to think before they start adding buffers, springs, etc...without having fired a shot to know whether or not their weapon even functions.

Exactly.

Obviously if someone's been shooting ARs continuously for the last 15 years, kept up with all the latest and greatest the whole time, owns 25 carbines, shoots thousands of rounds/year, etc. they're going to know what parts work for them, or what new parts they're looking to try based on past experience.

But, even in that case, when dealing with a factory built gun I'd prefer to shoot it at least once to make sure it works as-is before I start going nuts swapping parts in and out.

Marcus L.
03-29-09, 08:32
The problem is that a lot of new buyers think that somehow a bare bones combat rifle is somehow inadequate. Iron sights and no rail accessories have done a pretty good job of putting down the enemy for a long time. At least get used to the weapon in its original state before you start adding toys.

That being said, a good Aimpoint or EoTech is a nice addition faster target aquisition. Any combat advantage you can gain from the addition of toys is good......but in the grande scheme of things the better combat advantages are using cover and concealment properly, using movement, and firing quickly and accurately.

Triton28
03-29-09, 08:34
Take $450 of that $600, get in touch with G&R Tactical and pick yourself up an Aimpiont C3 in ADM mount for $450, cut down the carry handle that came with the gun into a rear BUIS, stick with the stock FSB, and use part of that $150 you saved to pick yourself up a BFG Victory Sling for $35 or a Boonie Packer for $15, and get out there and GO SHOOT THE GUN.

I'm sure you meant to say "GO SHOOT THE GUN" at the beginning of this paragraph, right?

LOKNLOD
03-29-09, 09:29
Good post Rob...
What sort of surprises me is how many people are wanting to modify the internals before ever shooting it lately On the one hand it's good that folks are more concerned with how the gun is going to function than how it looks, but without without understanding what & why, it's a lot riskier.

This is just the evolution of things lately...the same guys who were buying a DPMS and dragging it down the tacky aisle at TAPCO are now buying a rifle and then reading the forums and going "oh crap I need to change out this and that to have a reliable gun..." without even understanding what they're doing. I think this is one of the unintended consequences of the Chart culture, as the pendulum swings too far in that direction. It'll come back towards the middle and hopefully we'll achieve some balance.


OH, and before someone else says it....dibs on the LW redimag and BAD off the SBR ;)

thopkins22
03-29-09, 09:41
I was that way about VFGs. A lot of rounds and a class later, they are all sitting in a box. I'm sure someone has a use for them, but at this point I don't. Still happy about the rail, as I've changed my light setup several different times, and I like options. Still happy about the red dot, as I know how to shoot irons...I'm just not as good with them.

As far as Magpul addiction goes...I'm prepared to admit that I don't gain much/any benefit, but I like it. If you understand what/why you're using something I don't see a problem. My reason for CTRs and all that jazz is that I think they're f-ing cool...and don't detract anything.

More than people adding rails, I see people doing arbitrary(and potentially less reliable) things like putting H2/H3 buffers in their 16" guns before shooting a single shot.

Littlelebowski
03-29-09, 10:18
Thank, you rob. This should be stickied.

Outlander Systems
03-29-09, 10:36
+1 for a sticky.

Pragmatic advice is a rarity nowadays.

MAUSER202
03-29-09, 10:38
I
More than people adding rails, I see people doing arbitrary(and potentially less reliable) things like putting H2/H3 buffers in their 16" guns before shooting a single shot.

I agree, I almost got an H2 and enhanced bcg for my LMT when I ordered it. I thought it would make the gun better ect. Grant said it was a waiste of money and may even make the weapon less relieable. Great advice Grant. It shot great and still does 1000's of rounds later.

BAC
03-29-09, 10:46
I agree with most, but to a point. I have very little trigger time on my one and only AR, but already I've learned that I hate the stock grip and that a full-sized MIAD is much more comfortable and gives my hand a better "reach" for the trigger. I've also learned, through those few rounds and a lot of dry-firing, that the stock GI trigger sucks. I don't need a match trigger of any kind, but a smooth trigger would go a long way into helping me, as a new shooter, focus more on basic marksmanship than on fighting the rifle. I like my A1 stock, so it stays. The only rail on the rifle is the one on the upper receiver, and the only thing on it is a LaRue BUIS.

Some things, like replacing a grip, picking a more comfortable stock, and tuning the stock trigger are all pretty personal, and are all things that can be done to help the rifle fit the shooter just a little better (I was just having this conversation with my dad, oddly enough). Except for the stock, they're all pretty inexpensive things to do. I liken adjustments like these to adjusting the car seat and mirrors to better fit you instead of your spouse or girlfriend.

Other things might simply be a matter of preventative maintenance. My upper is a RRA 16" middy, and as expected came with so marginal attempt at carrier key staking they might as well have not done it. Would it be excessive to buy a BCM or LMT bolt carrier group if I can't stake these? Little things like this aren't anything more than little things to keep the rifle functioning so you can go shoot it.


-B

Rider
03-29-09, 10:47
That was a good read for us newbies, Rob. Thanks.

Here is what I have done- I am running my new Daniel Defense stock right now. My first purchases have been 20+ mags and 2 K of various ammo to see what works best. Bought a spare BCG from Grant, JIC.

Here are my plans - I am waiting on the Magpul sling to come back out, I bought a TLR-1 light and its on the way. I may replace the grip, if it still continues to bother me.

Then, I want to take a carbine class.

Eventually, some optics or an Aimpoint. But I have exhausted the funds for now.

The gun already has plenty of rails, to say the least. I dont think I bought anything unwise yet and I have tried to just get the "basics". If there is a better sling under $50 I would be grateful for the tip.

I appreciate the knowledge gained around here for sure.

thopkins22
03-29-09, 11:27
If there is a better sling under $50 I would be grateful for the tip.

I'd probably spend an extra ten dollars and get the original VCAS (http://www.blueforcegear.com/product.cfm?type=cat&cat_id=5&prod_id=79).

But if $50 is a hard limit, there are other good options. VCAS Double A Model (http://www.blueforcegear.com/product.cfm?type=cat&cat_id=5&prod_id=112) OR Victory Series Two-Point Sling (http://www.blueforcegear.com/product.cfm?type=cat&cat_id=5&prod_id=112)

I have no experience with it, but why not look at the $15 Boonie Packer sling that rob_s mentioned above?

I'm sure that there are other quality sling options on the market. I have experience with the Vickers ones, and like them a lot...as do many here.

MarshallDodge
03-29-09, 11:36
Excellent post Rob! I have been saying this for many years but it really hit home when I read and understood the signature of Dave McCracken on THR - BA/UU/R....

BA = Buy Ammo
UU = Use Up
R = Repeat

Dave, who is a moderator on THR in the shotgun forum, got tired of seeing all the pictures of people posting their "tacticool shotguns that had never been shot. So every time someone posted a picture of their shotgun he would compliment the gun and post BA/UU/R....


BA/UU/R is a handy way to say that expertise comes with practice, not with buying Cool Stuff.

rob_s
03-29-09, 11:52
BAC, I think that the trigger thing is actually something that comes with use. I hear people say that the AR stock trigger is horrible, but I find it to be very good. I think it depends in part on your frame of reference. I came to the AR from defensive handgun shooting, and specifically Glocks and DA revolvers. For me, picking up my first AR, I considered the trigger to be a dream. I think that on the opposite end of the spectrum many guys that come from the hunting or bolt-action realm find the AR trigger to be atrocious. Either way, I still believe that learning to work with the stock trigger is part of GO SHOOT THE GUN. No matter the frame of reference I think that the stock trigger is a training issue as much as anything else, and I have yet to see a new shooter that has really benefited from changing out the trigger.

BAC
03-29-09, 12:05
Fair enough. I'm entering the rifle shooting world from defensive shooting with a 1911 and (rarely) a Glock 17. The grit in the stock trigger aggravated me to no end, hence its trip to Colorado Springs and Bill Springfield. When I can find a lower parts kit in stock, I'll build up my spare lower receiver and shoot the two side-by-side to see if there is a difference in performance between the tuned trigger and the stock one.


-B

USMC1341
03-29-09, 12:12
Many of us have experience behind the trigger of some sort of AR. While recommending a first timer to the range is for sure great advise. I think taking a rifle out of the box and personalizing it before range time isn't the worst thing neither when you are already familiar with the platform.

Mo_Zam_Beek
03-29-09, 12:50
USMC - 100% and I think everyone would agree with that. Your gun, your experience, your use, your money.

RobS - 100%

On another note for those that are new - most of the folks that own several ARs have a bone stock irons only in inventory - b/c they flat work.

Good luck

Rider
03-29-09, 13:24
I'd probably spend an extra ten dollars and get the original VCAS (http://www.blueforcegear.com/product.cfm?type=cat&cat_id=5&prod_id=79).

But if $50 is a hard limit, there are other good options. VCAS Double A Model (http://www.blueforcegear.com/product.cfm?type=cat&cat_id=5&prod_id=112) OR Victory Series Two-Point Sling (http://www.blueforcegear.com/product.cfm?type=cat&cat_id=5&prod_id=112)

I have no experience with it, but why not look at the $15 Boonie Packer sling that rob_s mentioned above?

I'm sure that there are other quality sling options on the market. I have experience with the Vickers ones, and like them a lot...as do many here.

Thanks for the input, I was looking at that VCAS one too. They also have it on Magpuls site and include 2 quick detact swivels which seem like they would fit the Daniel Defense carbines stock swivel points. I may just have to go with that set up.

BushmasterFanBoy
03-29-09, 15:24
There is this gun forum culture of "senior" members posting very good pictures and then people try to copy their setup. I mean think of some members, such as Stickman. He has built his entire reputation around his very excellent pictures.
He is a virtual billboard for companies to advertise their kit with.
The surefire way to sell a new product is to get it in the hands of one of the "respected picture takers", and it will sell.
I'm sure we can point out others as well.

Not a bad thing perhaps, but I think this has alot to do with what you are talking about.

trio
03-29-09, 17:40
certainly true to a certain point, especially for true beginners....but I am a firm believer in

1) I like what I like

and

2) I like consistency


I currently own 4 ARs, and the only one that isn't set up like the other 3 is the one I am getting ready to SBR....in that instance, when I bought the newer ones, I just went ahead and paid the money to get them set up like I like them....I recently changed to Rails that go forward of the FSP, but after putting one on one carbine I went and shot it before I swapped the others...

Its like Glocks for me I guess...I own several, its really all I carry and shoot...they are all set up the exact same way (3.5 lb ghost, G17 trigger, Warren Tac sights, extended slide stop, Vickers mag release)...so last week when I bought a G26, before I ever chambered a round, I swapped all that stuff in...

I think the best advice is make sure you find out what YOU like, don't necessarily rely on what OTHER people like...

the caveat, of course, to that is to be open minded enough to realize someone may have "better" ideas and be willing to accept you don't have all the answers and be able to change

flyboy1788
03-29-09, 17:59
Good Writeup Rob_S. KISS-- Keep It Simple Stupid is something that more people should consider when building/operating ARs

CLHC
03-29-09, 18:30
Excellent post to ponder! :cool:

rob_s
03-29-09, 18:42
I don't want this to get misconstrued as the barf version of KISS with A1 uppers and other nonsense. Rails serve a purpose, RDS are better than irons, lights are a requirement on a defensive gun, etc. I just think that some people need to think before they buy. I also thought I'd post my experiences in the hopes that maybe it'll save someone else a little cash. This is not about forgoing good gear just to have some romanticized notion of "KISS", but about knowing what you're doing and why you're doing it so that you can asses if what you've done is successful or not.

To me, the rifles that I posted pictures of are about as "KISS" as I'm going to get.

Parabellum9x19mm
03-29-09, 19:01
i'm saving up for DD Lite FSMP rails for a N4 Recce Basic, but i still shoot it as it with plastic handguards all the time.

i just went out shooting with it yesterday. yeah i'll have the rails soon and will have to rezero after i install them, but i don't consider the shooting i just did a waste of ammo. i had fun, so it was money well spent.

since the thread is all about posting pics, i'll perpetuate the problem i guess

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v205/parabellum9x19mm/0328091013a.jpg

Sam
03-29-09, 19:12
I figured out a way to mount a white light on a small section of rail on the handguards, the key to which is that I can take that light off there when I don't need it or don't want the added weight.


http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/BCM/DSC_2955-1.jpg



Rob:

Would you mind sharing how you mount the light on the standard handguard. I know it involves one of those short picatinny rail piece. Did you just drill the handguard and bolt it on? or does it require some kind of shims to compensate for the tapered handguard.

If it's a trade secret and you don't want to tell, that's fine too.

Thanks.

rob_s
03-29-09, 19:40
Yep just drilled holes and mounted the Streamlight plastic rail. You have to be careful if mounting a slide-on light so that you don't get interference from the FSB.

Sam
03-29-09, 21:00
Thanks Rob.

NCPatrolAR
03-29-09, 21:25
Thanks Rob.

IIRC, Brownells sells a section of rail that has cut-outs in it for the ribs on normal handguards.

Triton28
03-29-09, 22:00
I think the best advice is make sure you find out what YOU like, don't necessarily rely on what OTHER people like...

+1

Advice is great. Opinions are nice. Conversation among like minds is fine. Experience is best.

Put another way, skip the damn optics and buy ammo.

Thomas M-4
03-29-09, 22:34
I cant speak for other people but I can share my story when I decided to get a AR
over 2 years ago. I listened to a bunch of BS trying to find the best one that I could get my hands on until I found ROBS list posted on this forum thank you by the way ROB. Ordered my lower, 6 months later ordered my upper from a well known supplier I called the owner to ask about the compatability of the lmt upper with the lmt enh bcg and was told it was gtg asked if H-buffer is what I should use was told yes. Checked the net for any info. All I could find at the time was problems with using weak ammo wasnt planning on using weak ammo so no problem. As far as people decking there guns out I am pretty sure alot of its to do with if you dont get it now you may never be able to get it again if awb 2 happens.

In my younger days sold a loaded edition springfield m1a1 and arsenal slr 95 about 6 months before the first awb thinking they will never pass that crap. BAD mistake

I all ways hated the m-4 buttstock rattled like a can stuck on top of a broom stick.
and from owning a s&w m&p I really liked changable back strap idea.

bkb0000
03-29-09, 22:41
bah- it's their money and time. fact of the matter is, no matter what you get for a first AR, you're gonna change your mind and change your direction and change your pistol grip 5 times.

Thomas M-4
03-29-09, 22:58
bah- it's their money and time. fact of the matter is, no matter what you get for a first AR, you're gonna change your mind and change your direction and change your pistol grip 5 times.

lol thats it!

boltcatch
03-30-09, 00:08
Lot of guys like to throw on "quad rail handguards" :rolleyes: without any notion at all of what they even want to do with them, if anything.

In fact I'd venture to say that the VAST majority of rail systems on AR's in the US don't do anything other than hold a foregrip, if that.

If you're doing some sort of precision build you want to free float, or if you *know* from the get-go that you're going to use a configuration requiring a railed handguard, then fine, but otherwise there are too many guys who simply think rails look cool. Most spend little time actually shooting, let alone carrying, their rifles.

There is nothing better for getting un-used crap off your rifle and adding must-have items than carrying it around and shooting it day and night. People quickly find at a minimum that they want it as light as possible while still being able to make hits at a needed range, and they want to be able to aim at night.

kwelz
03-30-09, 00:15
I will admit that the first thing I normally do on a rifle is replace the normal grips with a Quadrail. In fact I usually use the tools at the Gunshop to do it. I just prefer the look and feel of a Quadrail in most cases.

However I also don't go more than a day or two without putting at least a hundred rounds through the gun. I know that isn't much but it at least lets me know if the gun functions on a basic level.

Gentoo
03-30-09, 00:20
I short circuited all the buying extra bits for the gun. I just got a DD m4 lol.

Sam
03-30-09, 10:14
IIRC, Brownells sells a section of rail that has cut-outs in it for the ribs on normal handguards.

If you can think of the part number or link to it, please let me know. I searched the Brownells site, but no such luck.

rob_s
03-30-09, 10:15
If you can think of the part number or link to it, please let me know. I searched the Brownells site, but no such luck.

There's slots on the bottom of this (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=25779&title=AR-15/M16%20TACTICAL%20ILLUMINATOR%20MOUNT). It's the one I use.

Sam
03-30-09, 10:23
There's slots on the bottom of this (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=25779&title=AR-15/M16%20TACTICAL%20ILLUMINATOR%20MOUNT). It's the one I use.

Thanks again Rob.

Do you have any problem with the tapered handguard making the light not projecting coaxially with the gun, i.e. does the light direction go cattywumpus :) My buddy told me that's a southern tactical term.

bigdumbparatrooper
03-30-09, 11:00
I have been lurking around here for a while and this seems like a good thread to "come out" with.:o I returned from overseas in 07 and have dived deep into the AR world. I started out with a DPMS fraken kit gun that a cousin bought for me while I was in Astan. It had a "sportical" upper with a 11.5 barrel with pinned 5inch Xm177ish comp. It had a comercial sized reciever extension, with model 1 furniture. What it also had was a MPI bolt with a chrome bolt carrier that had the gas key over staked.

I came home on post deployment leave, slapped my EOtech on it and promtly shot about 2500 rounds through it over a long weekend. It got hot to the point where the hand guards melted around the cap by the FSB but never one hick up or malfunction.

I started to become displeased with it when I tryed to put on a KAC rail and Vltor modstock that I had started using on my issue weapon. So I started reasearching and learned a lot about sizes, milspec, etc. I discovered a whole lot of stuff I NEEDED like Surefire M900s,RRA upper, Endine buffer, etc. Like alot of people I hung every new widget off my blaster.

Soon I started working in a Tradoc enviroment where I was not issued a weapon for the first time in my career. I soon became locked in on a issue set up to train with. I sold off the RRA non chrome lined upper, the M900, the little bits and pieces. Soon I had a LMT with features as close too what I would go fighting with as I could. I have pretty much settled into a standard set up with a few exceptions such as a Larue mount for my CCO. I have used this set up in two EAG classes and I am comfortable with it and as the default mode.

What I am getting at with my rambling ass post is that we need to validate our set ups with live and dry fire, and like a PLDC land nav course, if we are switched on, the AR widget pastime will be self correcting.

I try not to be snide to new shooters who are going down the same road I did, just helpful and constructive in my suggestions, and I try to poing them in the right direction.

bigdumbparatrooper
03-30-09, 11:15
As far as slings go, I have made the same trip as everyone else. Carry strap/jungle sling/three point/single point, now I am with the adjustable two point and have been using one model or another since 05. I am at the point where I just make my own as neccesary. A double arms length of tubular nylon, salvaged quick release from a ruck strap, four inches of 550 cord, and 4 one inch tri-glides is all you need for a Vtac type two point sling. I don't begrudge SGM Lamb a single dime that he has made from his outstanding equipment but if I can make a two fully functional slings for under 5 dollars as opposed to at least $35.00 for one; well I'll use the money I save to buy ammo, or other VTAC products I haven't figured out how to make yet:D

bullitt5172
03-30-09, 11:19
I agree, I almost got an H2 and enhanced bcg for my LMT when I ordered it. I thought it would make the gun better ect. Grant said it was a waiste of money and may even make the weapon less relieable. Great advice Grant. It shot great and still does 1000's of rounds later.

This is one reason I trust Grant and Steve from ADCO. They will talk you OUT of buying something that is not needed. That says a lot in my book when that advice directly impacts their profit.

Good post Rob.

Sam
03-30-09, 12:12
As far as slings go, I have made the same trip as everyone else. Carry strap/jungle sling/three point/single point, now I am with the adjustable two point and have been using one model or another since 05. I am at the point where I just make my own as neccesary. A double arms length of tubular nylon, salvaged quick release from a ruck strap, four inches of 550 cord, and 4 one inch tri-glides is all you need for a Vtac type two point sling. I don't begrudge SGM Lamb a single dime that he has made from his outstanding equipment but if I can make a two fully functional slings for under 5 dollars as opposed to at least $35.00 for one; well I'll use the money I save to buy ammo, or other VTAC products I haven't figured out how to make yet:D

On this topic, if you don't want to spend the money for a Viking or Vickers slings, the Boonie Packer quick adjust 2 point slings are $15. It's not sexy but it saves you the trouble of finding sling materials, sewing, cutting and getting the triglide.

Why reinvent the wheel when it's already available cheaply.

bigdumbparatrooper
03-30-09, 16:28
I wouldn't say I am re-inventing the wheel, just putting junk to good use. I collect Vietnam era kit and I come across unwanted bits and pieces all the time. Its just re-use, re-purpose, recycle. I am doing my part to be green:D

Sam
03-30-09, 16:44
I've seen guys that want to stay simple with their basic AR. They show up for a class with magazines stuff in their pockets instead of using some kind of magazine pouch, they use LBJ era slings, using huge rubber bands to hold their lights. Then they bitch about not having enough time to reload their gun or the drills give people with mag pouches advantage, or their hunting sling would let them down during transitions to secondary and their flash light would shine up in the sky or on the ground during night fire. I see Rob's point of not changing parts on your gun for the sake of looking cool, but you should use gears that make your shooting easier and more efficient.

RogerinTPA
03-30-09, 21:01
Excellent Thread Rob_S. This is way past due and definitely "Sticky"worthy.

jhs1969
03-30-09, 22:03
Fair enough. I'm entering the rifle shooting world from defensive shooting with a 1911 and (rarely) a Glock 17. The grit in the stock trigger aggravated me to no end, hence its trip to Colorado Springs and Bill Springfield. When I can find a lower parts kit in stock, I'll build up my spare lower receiver and shoot the two side-by-side to see if there is a difference in performance between the tuned trigger and the stock one.


-B

After owning 15 different Bushmasters and a half dozen Colts, I had never had a complaint about the stock triggers. However the last BM I owned (#16) had by far the worst trigger I had ever had on a AR. They will smooth out with use and I was able to run #16 just fine, but I was very pleased when I replaced it with a LMT to find the LMT had the best standard trigger I had ever used. I would suggest two things; 1: try running the stock trigger and adapting to it, 2: go to your local range and try a few rounds through other AR's. Do this to compare to your AR, see if your trigger is "normal". If yours was as bad as my last BM then I couldn't fault you for wanting something a little better. Otherwise I personally like the standard AR trigger and would not suggest anyone use a 'match' trigger as a crutch. There are many more shooters here with more wisdom than me, Robb would never steer you wrong. Good luck.

gtmtnbiker98
03-31-09, 10:22
My 6920 is bone stock and will remain that way.

Centerfire
03-31-09, 14:23
I'm guilty of starting to tinker with weapons before they are fired. Honestly, I can't leave anything alone: firearms, cars, motorcycles. Oh well, I'll continue my tinkering.

jmorrell
03-31-09, 20:17
I usually don't add things to an AR until I have fired it at the range. The exception was with my Colt 6920: I knew from shooting my Bushmaster for two years that I don't like the military style pistol grip and stock that comes with a Colt direct from the factory. I ordered a Magpul MIAD grip and a Magpul MOE stock while I was waiting for the gun to arrive, and swapped out the OEM parts the day the 6920 came home with me. But I didn't go with a DD Omega 7.0 rail system until after I had owned the gun for a month or so and I had taken the gun to the range with the OEM handguards attached.

87GN
04-01-09, 03:33
I've actually never bought a complete AR, all of mine have been built from components, so from birth they were slightly tacticooled out.

But most end up looking just like the ones in the first post. Standard handguards, sling, flashlight, red dot, BUIS.

HisDivineShadow
04-01-09, 10:28
I am like this as well, I don't have a single gun thats not been altered in some way.

Chas_97
04-01-09, 16:11
I have been lurking around here for a while and this seems like a good thread to "come out" with.:o I returned from overseas in 07 and have dived deep into the AR world. I started out with a DPMS fraken kit gun that a cousin bought for me while I was in Astan. It had a "sportical" upper with a 11.5 barrel with pinned 5inch Xm177ish comp. It had a comercial sized reciever extension, with model 1 furniture. What it also had was a MPI bolt with a chrome bolt carrier that had the gas key over staked.

I came home on post deployment leave, slapped my EOtech on it and promtly shot about 2500 rounds through it over a long weekend. It got hot to the point where the hand guards melted around the cap by the FSB but never one hick up or malfunction.

I started to become displeased with it when I tryed to put on a KAC rail and Vltor modstock that I had started using on my issue weapon. So I started reasearching and learned a lot about sizes, milspec, etc. I discovered a whole lot of stuff I NEEDED like Surefire M900s,RRA upper, Endine buffer, etc. Like alot of people I hung every new widget off my blaster.

Soon I started working in a Tradoc enviroment where I was not issued a weapon for the first time in my career. I soon became locked in on a issue set up to train with. I sold off the RRA non chrome lined upper, the M900, the little bits and pieces. Soon I had a LMT with features as close too what I would go fighting with as I could. I have pretty much settled into a standard set up with a few exceptions such as a Larue mount for my CCO. I have used this set up in two EAG classes and I am comfortable with it and as the default mode.

What I am getting at with my rambling ass post is that we need to validate our set ups with live and dry fire, and like a PLDC land nav course, if we are switched on, the AR widget pastime will be self correcting.

I try not to be snide to new shooters who are going down the same road I did, just helpful and constructive in my suggestions, and I try to poing them in the right direction.


Excellent Points!

AR widgets are what they are. Might I add that people vary as individuals. What is one man's junk is another man's treasure.

CobraBG
04-02-09, 17:57
Great post Rob and hopefully an eye opener for some. Save your money for ammo and go shoot it. :D

My Colt 6920 is stock except for a BFG padded Vickers sling and a MOE hand grip... nice and simple. :) I'll admit I would like to add a light and a red dot someday. For now I'm just trying to find ammo.

Beat Trash
04-02-09, 19:23
I'll add my thoughts. Feel free to agree, or not...

I agree with what I feel Rob was trying to say.

The same thought has plagued the pistol shooters, especially Glock and 1911 shooters, for years.

Many newer shooters fall into the trap of needing to add stuff to their guns because "The Cool Kids" did it that way in gun magazines, and now on the internet. When asked why they put said piece of equipment on their gun, or paid for said modification, they can't answer how it benefits them. They can give you the name of the individual they are trying to imitate, and what that person's credentials are. They also equate a high post count on an internet site as a sign of an individuals expertise in a given subject.

I believe in keeping one's weapons as KISS as necessary. If a stock gun works, than more power to you. If an added piece of equipment fulfills a need, or is a mission requirement, then get the best quality piece of gear available to address that specific need.

I am a strong believer in training with the gear you have, not the gear you wish you had, or especially the gear the "experts" you read about are currently using. Their needs may not be the same as yours.

I think this is what Rob was saying when he said to go out and shoot your guns first. If you have no idea why you are changing your gun or adding crap to it, then don't do it.

On the other hand, If you've been around a bit. Trained more than a little bit, and know what works for you, then go ahead and outfit your next gun the way you know you need to. I would bet that those individuals who fall into this category, could care less what the "cool kids" in the gun magazines or on the internet are using/photographing. They know what works for them, and will set up any extra AR's, Glocks, 1911's, the way their primary guns are set up.

Then again, what the hell do I know...

nfranco
04-15-09, 00:10
Thanks again Rob.

Do you have any problem with the tapered handguard making the light not projecting coaxially with the gun, i.e. does the light direction go cattywumpus :) My buddy told me that's a southern tactical term.
Was wondering this myself.

Triton28
04-15-09, 07:26
Take $450 of that $600, get in touch with G&R Tactical and pick yourself up an Aimpiont C3 in ADM mount for $450, cut down the carry handle that came with the gun into a rear BUIS, stick with the stock FSB, and use part of that $150 you saved to pick yourself up a BFG Victory Sling for $35 or a Boonie Packer for $15, and get out there and GO SHOOT THE GUN.Why give gear recommendations and name drop in a thread that says, about a dozen times...

GO SHOOT THE GUN, and figure out what YOU want or need to do to improve it.

Exchange the above with buying ammo and I'm tracking 100%.

rob_s
04-15-09, 07:49
Why give gear recommendations and name drop in a thread that says, about a dozen times...


Exchange the above with buying ammo and I'm tracking 100%.

I'm not reading you.

If you know of somewhere else to get the mount/C3 at that price feel free to include it. It's where I got mine, and I am happy with it and the service. Similar the slings are what I have experience with and/or prefer in using other (often more expensive) products.

If you mean the whole "learn irons first" thing, I've posted before that I think it's bullshit in this day and age. Just like the old "buy a 22, then a revolver, before you buy a .45" nonsense.

Optics, or more specifically a good 1x red-dot optic (which means "Aimpoint", BTW) increase the shooter's ability to get good hits rapidly. In turn, this increases a new shooter's ability to enjoy shooting. If it takes, and they get interested, and stick with it, there is nothing stopping them from learning the irons later. If they fight with the iron sights, never get good hits, get frustrated, and loose interest in shooting, then we lost another soul.

I'm getting kind of tired of the "irons only for serious use" argument. It just doesn't hold water in 2009, and is typically a backward-engineered argument used by folks trying to rationalized something else.

jp0319
04-15-09, 09:00
Its been said but here is my .02 I agree with Rob on most of this too but also add I have been shooting ARs in the military (M16, M4) for 15 years. I have been issued them in every possible configuration from stripped KISS style to decked out rail grips optics etc. I know what I prefer from what I have used. I have only owned one AR which I no longer have it was a stripped bushy. I have two ARs on Layaway right now a loaded LWRC with all the goodies which I only need an optic for and a Colt 6721 which has no goodies. I already have a plan for the colt on what I will get for it and how it will be set up. Obviously since I'm about to be deployed for 12 months I will probibly buy a lot of the stuff for it before I even get it. I WILL however shoot it before making any mods because as you stated unless you check it for function you'll never know what part you changed made it not function if indeed that happens.

As far as someone changing out internals or asking about that from a military stand point we are mandated to change the o ring on the extractor and it is usually mandated because something was wrong with the previous part so if someone wants to do this before shooting it I say good if they have to do it that just means the manufacturer didn't outfit it properly from the factory IMHO.

Just like each one of us checks the BCG for properly staked gas key or the castle nut staking, the O ring and buffer/spring follows the same line in my mind.

Again my .02

brianc142
04-15-09, 09:05
I'm not reading you.

If you know of somewhere else to get the mount/C3 at that price feel free to include it. It's where I got mine, and I am happy with it and the service. Similar the slings are what I have experience with and/or prefer in using other (often more expensive) products.

If you mean the whole "learn irons first" thing, I've posted before that I think it's bullshit in this day and age. Just like the old "buy a 22, then a revolver, before you buy a .45" nonsense.

Optics, or more specifically a good 1x red-dot optic (which means "Aimpoint", BTW) increase the shooter's ability to get good hits rapidly. In turn, this increases a new shooter's ability to enjoy shooting. If it takes, and they get interested, and stick with it, there is nothing stopping them from learning the irons later. If they fight with the iron sights, never get good hits, get frustrated, and loose interest in shooting, then we lost another soul.

I'm getting kind of tired of the "irons only for serious use" argument. It just doesn't hold water in 2009, and is typically a backward-engineered argument used by folks trying to rationalized something else.
I agree completely. Ask LAV his opinion on irons vs. a quality red dot optic and see what he says.

jp0319
04-15-09, 09:45
As far as the Irons vs. optics debate here is my .02 I believe that someone should be proficient with the irons on their weapon of choice, and use them in training. Optics are the way to go for all serious shooting in fact hit percentage goes up when using optics vs irons...BUT optics especially Eotech , Aimpoint and the type are electronics based gear WHICH FAIL, no matter how good they are or how long their battery life is Mr Murphy rears his ugly head at the worst possible times and if you are not capible of hitting your target with irons then you fail, or worse die. I have a CCO on my issue M4 but I zeroed and qualed with both my irons and my CCO for this very reason.

jrainer
04-15-09, 10:04
As a new owner of an AR I was caught with the cool factor on so many customizations. Only to find for my use which is just for fun and plinking. I prefered it in the original NIB set up luckily I didn't blow too much on stuff that I don't even use all that often. But thanks to this forum and the wealth of knowledge just one click away. I am better able to make an informed choice on what and where to get for my next AR as most of my firearm experiance is with shotguns and bolt action rifles I grew up with.

M4tographer
04-15-09, 10:10
As a new owner of an AR I was caught with the cool factor on so many customizations.

x2

I'm a big fan of 'it doesn't go on unless it's practical'. My first build is about as simple as it can be. After reading this thread I was finally able to get out and put a couple hundred rounds through it. Happy to report everything worked great as built. Only thing I need to change is the rear sight (no optic, not sure if I ever will, honestly) because the aperture is too small. It grouped and ran well otherwise. Thanks rob_s for the kick in the ass. ;)

Triton28
04-15-09, 10:20
I'm not reading you.

If you know of somewhere else to get the mount/C3 at that price feel free to include it. It's where I got mine, and I am happy with it and the service. Similar the slings are what I have experience with and/or prefer in using other (often more expensive) products.It's not the "where", it's that reading the title of the thread, I wouldn't have expected to see gear recommendations at all. Seems counter-productive to post a thread aimed at new shooters that says, "GO SHOOT THE GUN, but before you do, go buy ________ at ________."


If you mean the whole "learn irons first" thing, I've posted before that I think it's bullshit in this day and age. Just like the old "buy a 22, then a revolver, before you buy a .45" nonsense.

Optics, or more specifically a good 1x red-dot optic (which means "Aimpoint", BTW) increase the shooter's ability to get good hits rapidly. In turn, this increases a new shooter's ability to enjoy shooting. If it takes, and they get interested, and stick with it, there is nothing stopping them from learning the irons later. If they fight with the iron sights, never get good hits, get frustrated, and loose interest in shooting, then we lost another soul.

I'm getting kind of tired of the "irons only for serious use" argument. It just doesn't hold water in 2009, and is typically a backward-engineered argument used by folks trying to rationalized something else.

The order a person learns various sighting devices really doesn't matter one way or another. If a person just happens to have some type of optic laying around and wants to try it on the new rifle, great. I just don't see the sense in telling a new shooter to go buy anything before a shot is fired.

I don't really buy the argument that optics will make a person stick with shooting, either. First of all, proper set up and use of iron sights does not require advanced math or any special skill. Second, optics are for faster target acqusition and/or more precision at longer ranges, neither of which is a requirement of a new shooter or someone familiarizing themselves with a given platforrm. And it's just my opinion, but if you're not getting hits with irons and that makes you sell your rifle and quit shooting all together, this was a passing fad for you anyway.

rob_s
04-15-09, 11:11
I understand what you're saying. I disagree with most of it, but I understand what you're saying.

Dunderway
04-15-09, 20:49
I know weíre talking ARís here, but I have personally witnessed the magic of optics on a fairly large scale with shotguns. When Trijicons became standard for us vs. iron sights, our number of arms qualified personnel at my unit jumped amazingly. The majority of these members were those who had lost all hope of ever getting through the practical qualification course with a passing score. Itís a basic course (position changes, tack reloads, plenty of time, all at under 25yds) but some were almost in tears from self-frustration. Irons to optics and our duty sections doubled after the first range day, with similar reports from friends at other units.. I canít help but make a correlation.

- Some other changes to the M870 were made, but I have to believe that the optics were the most conducive part to the shootersí success.

mikeg576
05-20-09, 19:48
Hi, everyone I'm new to the site and my Bushmaster m4a3 is my first gun. The topic here of how there seems to be more worry about modify and talk about the weapon then real use is not limited only to these rifles. I'm a huge Jeep nerd and I see the same trend with my beloved jeep. People too worried about looks and no experence behind the wheel. I have always been very big into function over form. I believe the problem many hobbies are seeing now a days is due to the ability to get so much info from people like all of you here. You have a lot of triger time as well as so heavly modded weapons. I gotta say that some of these ar's are freaken cool looking. I tend to drool over the photo thread and I guess many of the new owners get wraped up in the do-dads. I keep to the idea that my toys/ hobbies are for function. As far as I am concerened the looks of a gun are far less important then the workings, reliability, and safety of the rifle.
With jeeps the new jeep owners are so worried about brand names or color matched parts they don't know how to use them. Everyone seems to need a snorkle or differentail covers with on board air and lockers front and rear. From what has been posted in this thread and from what I've seen on this site these two hobbies are following the same path.
Anyway I'll be reading and learning while I'm shooting and enjoying my new stock m4. You have a great site here and very helpfull.
Thanks
P.S.
I did want to say that at time of purchase I got a EOTech 511. They owed me a few hundred from a price change. I couldn't pass it up. I do agree and understand it is very important to know how to use both sights well.

CobraBG
05-20-09, 20:08
Welcome Mike, interesting analogy you make... guns and Jeeps. I agree with your point about people getting caught up in adding the latest dodad just because they think it is necessary and looks cool. I'm into cars and mountain biking and I've seen the same thing there.

I'm not new to AR's myself but many of these good folks (M4Carbine.net) have a ton of knoweldge. Everytime I visit I learn something new. I'm sure you will too. :D

mikeg576
05-20-09, 20:53
thanks, if your into mountain bikes it's the same there. some of my friends make fun of my old school mountain cycle san andreas. it's a genn 2 and i love it. nothing crazy just the basics. the trick stuff isnt so trick concidering it's orig style hydro brakes from 1992. function over form. http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k62/mike_gardner/mountain%20cycle/sunday002.jpg

CobraBG
05-20-09, 21:16
That's a nice bike... do I see a little neon yellow "bling"? JK

I ride a YETI AS-R with a full XTR group and some extras. :cool:

ZDL
05-20-09, 22:07
It's not the "where", it's that reading the title of the thread, I wouldn't have expected to see gear recommendations at all. Seems counter-productive to post a thread aimed at new shooters that says, "GO SHOOT THE GUN, but before you do, go buy ________ at ________."



The order a person learns various sighting devices really doesn't matter one way or another. If a person just happens to have some type of optic laying around and wants to try it on the new rifle, great. I just don't see the sense in telling a new shooter to go buy anything before a shot is fired.

I don't really buy the argument that optics will make a person stick with shooting, either. First of all, proper set up and use of iron sights does not require advanced math or any special skill. Second, optics are for faster target acqusition and/or more precision at longer ranges, neither of which is a requirement of a new shooter or someone familiarizing themselves with a given platforrm. And it's just my opinion, but if you're not getting hits with irons and that makes you sell your rifle and quit shooting all together, this was a passing fad for you anyway.

Maybe, but:

I think you and rob are talking about 2 different kinds of people in regards to "new shooters".

Rob might be talking about your neighbor who has never asked you about shooting, never taken an interest, but one day decides, because you asked him, to go the range with you. He picks up the rifle, sees the big glowing red dot, and pulls the trigger. WOW this is fun. Look! I hit the target, let me do that again... MAN this is great, and a new fan is born.

The person you are talking about is someone who has a desire at the onset to learn about firearms. Someone like many of us no doubt. However, we are becoming a rarer breed in my estimation thus, Rob's approach to the current generation might fair better and yield us more members to the community. It is then that they might start asking questions like: what are iron sights? How do I use them? etc.

Getting on the red dot at the onset will not spoil the shooter imo and is probably a better approach to gaining new members from our current generation. YMMV

Triton28
05-21-09, 12:48
Rob might be talking about your neighbor who has never asked you about shooting, never taken an interest, but one day decides, because you asked him, to go the range with you. He picks up the rifle, sees the big glowing red dot, and pulls the trigger. WOW this is fun. Look! I hit the target, let me do that again... MAN this is great, and a new fan is born.

Possibly.

But couldn't you accomplish the same thing by setting up a reactive target at close range and use irons?

We could probably have this conversation into infinity. My goal wasn't to advise new shooters to stay away from optics. If one has the money laying around, go for it.

I like the Jeep analogy, partly because I own one of those too. There are those who think they cannot take thier stock Jeep anywhere because thier buddy has one with 6" lift and 35" tires and he says I need _______ and _______ before I can go offroad. Fair enough. Some places you can go just about require flexy suspension and big tires, but not everywhere. Too many novice Jeep owners have no idea how capable thier rig is in stock form. Why? They were told they needed this or that, and never got out on the trail to see for themselves.

Same applies to guns. As the title says, Go shoot the gun, get comfortable with the controls, figure out what you like and dislike, and then come back and figure out how to spend all your money. :D

rob_s
05-21-09, 12:53
Exhibit A (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=373714)

On the RDS vs. Irons thing...

You're right that we could debate it 'till the cows come home. Is an RDS absolutely necessary? Clearly no. Is it better? I'd say clearly yes.

However, if I had to choose between a Bushmaster + Aimpoint for $1500 or just the Colt 6920 with irons for the same price, I'd buy the Colt.

GNXII
05-23-09, 21:51
I have boxes and boxes full of once tried AR accesories than taken off as not fitting me or my purposes correctly. Even if its a quality product, it might not suit your needs. As an example of this, I recently used a Colt 6920 carbine in a course and the tac latch I had installed on the CH kept getting caught on everything and making things uncomfortable. That night I swapped out the modified CH for a standard one, end of issues! Is the tac latch at fault??? No, its not. As a matter of fact, I have them on a AR-10T, SPR clone and Varmint AR. In those applications the tac latch did not cause any issues and work as advertised. Get the basics down with irons on a Tier One carbine. When you pick up the rifle don't forget to buy quality ammo, top notch mags ( .I. Pmags,Lancer& Tango Down), and a good sling. A RDS(Aimpoint on a Larue mount) as your first real accessory then go from there i.e stocks, grips, rails etc. Get some quality training if your serious. You won't be sorry... :D

kingc
05-24-09, 00:14
Saw a posting some time ago on TOS. The guy's heading was, "Got my New 6920". In the pictures, it was topped with a BCM midlength. The stock was a CTR. The pistol grip was a Hogue??. And the lower had a two-stage trigger kit of some sort installed.
He put an ambidextrous safety on it as well. Had a few other doo-dads I'm ignorant on (e.g. M-Plate, et al.)
I was wondering what was 6920 about all this to do? Must have been the rollmark:cool:

Each to his own I guess.:)

mikeg576
05-24-09, 00:38
I have boxes and boxes full of once tried AR accesories than taken off as not fitting me or my purposes correctly. Even if its a quality product, it might not suit your needs. As an example of this, I recently used a Colt 6920 carbine in a course and the tac latch I had installed on the CH kept getting caught on everything and making things uncomfortable. That night I swapped out the modified CH for a standard one, end of issues! Is the tac latch at fault??? No, its not. As a matter of fact, I have them on a AR-10T, SPR clone and Varmint AR. In those applications the tac latch did not cause any issues and work as advertised. Get the basics down with irons on a Tier One carbine. When you pick up the rifle don't forget to buy quality ammo, top notch mags ( .I. Pmags,Lancer& Tango Down), and a good sling. A RDS(Aimpoint on a Larue mount) as your first real accessory then go from there i.e stocks, grips, rails etc. Get some quality training if your serious. You won't be sorry... :D

Great example. Function over form. In any hobby it should be the number 1 question. " Does this part make my ____ work better, faster, safer, stronger?".

hk51pdx
05-24-09, 01:44
Good points have been made, but i'd like to add that to be a 'shooter', by my definition, one must be able to effectively use iron sights thereby allowing for some competence with rifles, shotguns, and handguns.

I have irons, RDS, and magnified optics depending upon the type and purpose of the firearm. When i have a new person with me, i start with irons to establish some foundation and then we get to the 'cool' stuff and have a great time, and a little learning in the process. :)

rob_s
09-27-10, 06:51
I wanted to revisit this based on some trends I'm seeing both online and with our shooters. The good news is that a lot of folks are getting out there and actually shooting. This is a great thing. The bad news is that many are showing up with 4lbs worth of stuff on their 6lbs carbine with NO idea how to use the items they have and in fact are just complicating things in many cases. RDS magnifiers are a perfect example of this where we see guys go into vapor lock trying to figure out how to use it, let alone when to use it. Even the BAD lever can cause similar issues where the shooter was just, or maybe hasn't at all, getting used to the stock part and now they're dancing around trying to figure out how to drop the bolt.

We are living in interesting times for the AR platform with new innovations coming out almost weekly. New triggers, new rail systems, new muzzle devices, etc. The reality, however, is that if you don't have your fundamentals locked in NONE of these items are going to help you. If you have a $250 trigger, a $150+ muzzle device, a $500 magnifier, etc. but "can't afford a training class" you might want to adjust your priorities. It is fantastic that all of these devices are available today, but the truth is that they offer incremental advantages even to the best shooters, and if you don't understand the fundamentals with a stock gun and understand how these improvements help you after you've exceeded the ability of the stock gun then the chances that you'll see any real improvement at the macro level are pretty slim.

A few years ago I spent an entire year competing and training with an AK, beginning with a stock gun and improving it as I saw deficiencies I could address. By the end of the year I was winning or placing in the top 3 in our matches. I'm tempted to repeat this process with a 6920 just to get back to basics myself and test my theory. I'm hoping to take a Randy Cain Carbine 1 in November and it may just be the best opportunity to start out with the irons and a stock gun again.

Blstr88
09-27-10, 10:30
Good write up.

I just bought my first AR, a DD M4 a few weeks ago. Havent fired a shot out of it yet (had to leave for work 2 days later, havent been home since!). Ill be back in two days though and it's the first thing Im doing. But sitting here bored in Virginia I was looking at rails and almost ordered a DD rail for it...but after reading this I figured Id be better off spending the money on ammo, so I just bought 1000 rounds of cheapo steel cased ammo instead ;)

The rail can come later

500grains
09-27-10, 10:57
Lot of guys like to throw on "quad rail handguards" :rolleyes: without any notion at all of what they even want to do with them, if anything.

In fact I'd venture to say that the VAST majority of rail systems on AR's in the US don't do anything other than hold a foregrip, if that.

If you're doing some sort of precision build you want to free float, or if you *know* from the get-go that you're going to use a configuration requiring a railed handguard, then fine, but otherwise there are too many guys who simply think rails look cool. Most spend little time actually shooting, let alone carrying, their rifles.

Either the rail is there to wear out gloves quickly :haha: or to hold a bunch of rail covers which add 8 oz. to the gun. ;)



There is nothing better for getting un-used crap off your rifle and adding must-have items than carrying it around and shooting it day and night. People quickly find at a minimum that they want it as light as possible while still being able to make hits at a needed range, and they want to be able to aim at night.

Perhaps that is why the pencil barrels and MOE furniture are such a hit. A lot of people have realized that a 12 pound AR-15 is not that much fun.

500grains
09-27-10, 11:03
I'm guilty of starting to tinker with weapons before they are fired. Honestly, I can't leave anything alone: firearms, cars, motorcycles. Oh well, I'll continue my tinkering.

I have tinkered with both trucks and AR-15s until I just did not like them at all, and sent them on down the road.

m4brian
09-27-10, 12:14
I first saw the title of this and said - oh no!

But, it is a VERY good thread and should be condensed into a sticky. Good on Rob S.

I recently went after a DD 12 inch rail. One reason - its on sale. Another - my forearms are starting the "arthritic phase" of life, and I want longer holding options, as I cannot get comfortable in certain positions with a carbine length system

...maybe a middie with a Magpul forend... long story.

nontheless, mandatory reading here. PART of it is the human condition - I WILL want what I DON'T have now...

Mac5.56
09-27-10, 12:39
I really hate to say it but I think it seems like a large majority of the people that own AR's fall into the same mindset that kids have when they insist that if you buy them the new Air Jordans they will be able to run faster, and jump higher. Gear issues like this are what drive me crazy about every sport I participate in, and are not only prevalent in the AR/shooting world, but they are everywhere.

The desire to buy new stuff is such a driving force when it comes to boy's and their toys, that I wonder if it is the only thing keeping this economy afloat... :)

I think what causes it is a combination of three things. 1. A desire to keep up the Jonses. 2. A desire to improve your ability without putting in the time/practice. 3. A desire to show off one's gun to people that don't shoot.

Just like every other sport though that offers a million wiz bang improvements, there are only really 10-5% of the user population that will actually benefit from said improvements.

Rob, I do think though after teaching myself from the ground up how to shoot an AR over the last two years that some of the improvements I have done have helped me out quite a bit. The only improvements I have added though are a foregrip and a red dot. And both of these where after about 3000 rounds with a Irons only set up. Both of these additions came very naturally to me, and have helped my accuracy and my speed. But beyond this I feel like if I over complicate the gun much more it will be like starting all over in regards to muscle memory ext.

When I bought my AR a friend said: Congrats, now be careful and don't spend more then you spent on the rifle on crap to hang off of it... :)

THCDDM4
09-27-10, 13:54
I've owned my DDM4 for years and I am just now buying an aimpoint comp m2 for her (Not sure if I will like it all that much as I haven't gotten used to optics yet, I lvoe Iron Sights).The only thing I bought within the first year other than ammo and mags for this rifle was a surefire 60p weapons light and a DD offset light mount.
Next up is a Vickers DDM4 Sling, I have a no name sling that was given as a present that just doesn't fit the bill for me.

I agree that there are too many guys out there that buy $1,000.00 in aftermarket mods before they even shoot $20.00 worth of ammo in there rifles; it is their loss.

You have to remember that 99% of the people out there are just walking talking televisions/computers, so why are you so surprised that they act the way they do?

stifled
09-27-10, 15:41
I did this with my first AR-15. It had everything imaginable on it plus a few more--only thing it was missing was a cup holder. It stayed like that until I participated in my first 3-gun style competition. There were a few who had times as bad as mine, but almost all of them had a similar amount of crap hanging off their guns. I got rid of the quad rail and the rest of the stuff that added and got down to an EOTech and Blue Dot flashlight. The gun is much easier to handle, I don't have straps and switches everywhere, and it's more enjoyable to shoot which translates into more trigger time.

I'm strongly considering for my next build going as light weight as possible with a mid length gas system, then throwing on an Aimpoint H-1 on a DD mount and a flashlight and calling it a day. Everything I need with nothing I don't.

I am a bit spoiled on Geissele triggers now though. A few months ago I bought and installed one in an "SPR" I built and now I can see the point of people who say the stock triggers are crap. I don't think the stock triggers are terrible, but the Geissele Super Semi is exactly how I like a trigger.

Suwannee Tim
09-27-10, 15:49
When I get a new gun, the first thing I want to do is fondle it. Then I want to shoot it. I've bought several ARs and other black guns in the last 20 or so months and except for gun bags and an optic or two, no accessories. None, no slings, no lights, no bells, no whistles. My priorities now are to learn the AR and to lay in a supply of guns and ammo while the legal, political, supply and cash situation allows. I can buy gee-gaws later, after the next gun ban or no-lead-in-ammo scheme is enacted.

rob_s
12-27-10, 09:18
For a variety of reasons, this seems to need bumping of late.

steelhd1
12-27-10, 09:29
Being a newd to AR's I am glad I saw and read this post. I was going back and forth trying do decide if I needed this or that trying to decide what to buy as my first AR. Heck, as stated in this thread I have no idea what I like or dislike. For this reason I just picked up a lower from a local seller and am taking advantage of the DD deal going on. I know the upper is solid and highly touted. I am just getting a 16" midlength, MOE handgurd, BCG w/ charge handle, front post and buying a rear sight from a friend. I just bought 1000 rounds and am going to go take some training and shoot the hell out of it!

Thanks Rob!

JSantoro
12-27-10, 09:44
For a variety of reasons, this seems to need bumping of late.

...and we have the post-SHOT influx to look forward to, as well. Thinking of penciling in a series of weekly bumps once the 3rd week in January hits.

This, and a couple of other threads, like the one Army Chief just put up in GD.

kaiservontexas
12-27-10, 09:58
I have not read the entire thread yet, and will after this post.

I agree go shoot the rifle. I learned I wanted a VFG. The first time I ever fired my AR it got way to hot for me to touch. As a consequence of wanting a VFG, I wanted rails. Now I never decked out my first AR. That one is a BM with a wandering zero, and sits awaiting to be worked on (scrap the upper, improve lower.) Heck it was by shooting that rifle I learned, "what a piece of junk." I also learned from that first time I wanted a flat top upper and a Aimpoint. Consequently I put together the lower for my second rifle, and slapped a LaRue DMR 16" on it. It has the VFG, rail covers, and as of this Christmas a Comp M2 Aimpoint on a LT129 mount (thanks to advice from people in the optic part of the forum,) of which I will have to now learn how to use.

I admit my next rifle will be a factory BCM mid-length. That one will probably end up similar to the one I built with regards to accessories. But if I never dumped rounds through that first one in grave disapointment . . . I would not have found this place, and I would not know what works for me.

And if I get the money up, I plan on obtaining some personal instruction this year. Right now though I got larger family concerns to worry about . . . :(

ETA: I also wanted to add if you pay attention and listen this forum will force you to grow up with regards to firearms.

Littlelebowski
12-27-10, 10:28
What sort of lube should I use?

Iraqgunz
12-27-10, 10:41
I recommend KY jelly (scented is good) along with some CLP, Royal Purple and 5W30 Pennzoil. That should do it.


What sort of lube should I use?

Magsz
12-27-10, 10:43
What sort of lube should I use?

KY you goon. :)

In strong agreement that this thread needs bumping, especially considering the time of year.

I dont know if i mentioned this in my first post but the more people we have actually using their weapons the better off we are. Lets hope that said use is done safely.

Littlelebowski
12-27-10, 11:02
I just bought my carbine, haven't shot it yet. How should I best accessorize it? Is there a "chart" describing how to match various tactical colors?

jklaughrey
12-27-10, 11:10
Just think it will get much worse with tax season right around the corner gents!:big_boss::big_boss:

Quentin
12-27-10, 11:15
Funny, very funny! :p Wasn't there a movie a while back where a guy named "The Dude" tells you everything you need to know... :laugh:


Excellent thread, BTW and definitely in need of a bump at this time of the year.

Beat Trash
12-27-10, 11:52
I just bought my carbine, haven't shot it yet. How should I best accessorize it? Is there a "chart" describing how to match various tactical colors?

No, but there were some really good youtube videos lately that might help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evr_tP9cJWY

BrentC
12-27-10, 12:20
haha thats a great youtube vid.:laugh:

rburris
12-27-10, 12:47
I'm building my first M4gery and I don't have any plans to add anything to the basic weapon. I already have a 9mm carbine with a laser on it, and I have scopes on a couple of other rifles. But I need to learn to be a better marksman with iron sights, so I'm not going to handicap myself with gizmos on this one.

QuadBomb
12-27-10, 13:26
I fell victim to the same line of thinking with my (so far) only AR. I have a DD lite rail and a railed gas block to go with my CTR stock, BAD lever and MOE grip. Looking back, I probably don't need a free-float rail, and I could have saved money and weight by just using a MOE forearm.

So now, I've got more accessories than I really need. I could send them back. But, I'm officially done agonizing over what is the perfect setup. It's a perfectly good rifle, even a nice one, so I'm going to run with it. The greatest priority for yours truly is to focus on becoming a better shooter.

My next purchase: Ammo. After that, ammo. And some more ammo to go with it. Somewhere in there I may replace the buffer spring and get a new mag or two.

LRB45
12-27-10, 17:35
I'm probably as guilty as anyone in that my first and only AR as of right now was sort of decked out from the get go.

However it was a journey in itself to get my carbine setup. I spent hours upon hours looking at various gun forums, reading, looking and dreaming.

When the time came to purchase the various parts to my carbine I went with a complete lower with Sopmod. The upper I decided to go with the 14.5" barrel and thus needed a longer flashhider pinned and welded. That decision meant either go with a standard handguard or quad rail. I went with a LaRue. The quad rail has served its purpose just as I had hoped. I have mounted my sling to it, a QD flashlight mount and maybe a bipod down the road. See the rail does its job. Why a bipod, because I have small children that I let shoot and it will help them gain confidence. The flashlight can be moved from 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock position, I shoot left handed and if my older chidren want to shoot at night it takes all of a few seconds to switch around. I'm still shooting the iron sights but that is just because I don't have the funds yet for a RDS.

So yes I added the extras before I shot it but it was also setup with much thought. The biggest reason as stated earlier was the 14.5" barrel which in my opinion mandated some of the goodies from the get go.

Cameron
12-27-10, 18:07
I'm probably as guilty as anyone in that my first and only AR as of right now was sort of decked out from the get go.

I don't think you are guilty of anything, you did your research and made an informed decision and it appears from your post that you have a great crabine. I wish I had known better before buying my first AR.


Cameron

LRB45
12-27-10, 18:12
I don't think you are guilty of anything, you did your research and made an informed decision and it appears from your post ghat you have a great crabine. I wish I had known better before buying my first AR.

Cameron

Thanks for the kind words! Your rifles also are well thought out also, you just have alot more than me.

Coleslaw
12-27-10, 19:00
The OP's point is somewhat analogous to the yuppie Harley rider. You know the guy, drops 15K + on his new "HOG", and before it leaves the showroom, he has put 2K worth of bolt on chrome. Nothing done to the engine, carg/fuel inj, brakes, i.e., nothing functional. Go out and ride the damn thing, but if it don't run, chrome it!

Cameron
12-27-10, 19:50
The OP's point is somewhat analogous to the yuppie Harley rider. You know the guy, drops 15K + on his new "HOG", and before it leaves the showroom, he has put 2K worth of bolt on chrome. Nothing done to the engine, carg/fuel inj, brakes, i.e., nothing functional. Go out and ride the damn thing, but if it don't run, chrome it!

Hey, there is nothing wrong with safety chrome dude! Although I did do the big bore kit, induction, and carb, and I put 50,000 miles on it in four years.

Cameron

Quentin
12-27-10, 20:13
"Chrome don't bring you home..." :p

Quiet-Matt
12-28-10, 08:00
I have collected quite a coection of add ons that seemed like something I had to have at the time. Things like BAD levers and vert grips have only turned out to be bargains for my friends when I sell them off. There have only been a few things that I have found to be worth spending my ammo funds on. A longer rail, because carbine handguards are way too cramped. A MOE pistol grip to allow me a proper grip on the weapon, and p-mags because they work.
So, beside the obvious additions of good iron sights and a way to attach a sling, I havn't found too much that is worth spending my ammo money on.

Kissel
12-28-10, 08:28
Likewise. After countless hours and dollars rigging stuff up, there are 2 rifles that I pack up every time I go to the club--a stock KAC SR15 and an M4-style carbine that I built. I do have a RDS on that SR but sometimes I just take it off and shoot irons. I confess that I commit the sacrilege of using a carry handle sight on the M4. Maybe I'm trying to purify myself or something.

I have other rifles and I do have interest in them, but for simple shooting pleasure, I prefer to keep it simple.

Appalachian
12-28-10, 11:09
I have collected quite a coection of add ons that seemed like something I had to have at the time. .......There have only been a few things that I have found to be worth spending my ammo funds on. ...........I havn't found too much that is worth spending my ammo money on.

As I was reading this resurrection, this ^^ is what I started thinking. I too have suffered the loss of funds to things I thought would bring a little more usefulness to the gun. I wont specify which items, but I will say that in two instances I uninstalled the "widget" quickly when I tried to run the gun. Not low quality russian or redneck kitchen made stuff mind you, these were legit items that were well made... but they just didn't work for me.

I can see where this would be exponential for new entries into the AR world. Like the man said, GO SHOOT THE GUN. Great advice. For current owners, spend it on training and ammo unless you shoot your partner's rig with "X" item before you purchase and it works for you.

J-Dub
12-28-10, 11:14
I'm in the same situation. Trying to decide if its worth spending the money on a ADM recon scope mount when my burris pepr works just fine (just isnt quick detach).

$150 could buy a good amount of ammo...

dieselnut
12-28-10, 11:57
I just recently joined the forum (thanks to my well-read and well-informed friend), and this is as good of a thread as any for my first post. I'd like to thank rob_s for his frank and honest post. It goes along with how I already try to live and helps to justify my purchasing behaviors. I'm currently waiting on the parts for my first AR, which I am more than giddy about. Although my funds are limited to some degree, I could have easily gone overboard right from the start. Luckily, I didn't. Upper, lower, folding iron sights, done. I'm going to shoot the gun, get to know it, learn to live with it, and then I'll decide what else it needs. Optics? Most likely. Kitchen sink? Probably not.

Keep it simple. Practice. Learn. Make smart decisions. Rinse and repeat.

BAC
12-28-10, 13:31
$150 could buy a good amount of ammo...

Do you think that $150 will help you hit better with what you have, and thus offset the cost of the ammo by using what you do shoot more productively?


-B

Jdubya101
12-28-10, 20:30
"Chrome don't bring you home..." :p

But you sure look good sitting on the side of the road. :D

Kidding aside, very good thread with good advise.

Kissel
12-28-10, 20:48
This thread got me to thinkin'....so I dusted off my Colt SP1, grabbed a couple mags (20-round Colts with aluminum followers!) of 55gr American Eagle and had a great time this afternoon. I'm liking this.

Altair
12-29-10, 12:52
I think one of the big hangups people have with buying ammo vs accessories is that after you spend a few hundred on things like quad rails and fancy stocks you have them for as long as you want. Once you shoot ammo it is gone forever.

Of course, shooting your rifle is the only way to improve skill and shooting with good instruction is the best way. It just comes down to what is more important to you. To me, a rifle I can't use effectively is nothing more than a toy and a rifle I can use effectively is a tool. If you just want to shot it off to friends and look at it then by all means, spend the money on accessories. If you want to be able to fight with it, spend the money on ammo and go learn. If you are lucky and have deep enough pockets, do both.

Doc Safari
01-03-11, 15:26
Many newer shooters fall into the trap of needing to add stuff to their guns because "The Cool Kids" did it that way in gun magazines, and now on the internet. When asked why they put said piece of equipment on their gun, or paid for said modification, they can't answer how it benefits them. They can give you the name of the individual they are trying to imitate, and what that person's credentials are. They also equate a high post count on an internet site as a sign of an individuals expertise in a given subject.

I believe in keeping one's weapons as KISS as necessary. If a stock gun works, than more power to you. If an added piece of equipment fulfills a need, or is a mission requirement, then get the best quality piece of gear available to address that specific need.

I am a strong believer in training with the gear you have, not the gear you wish you had, or especially the gear the "experts" you read about are currently using. Their needs may not be the same as yours.


I agree.

Every time I am tempted to buy some new "essential" accessory I remember the joke that derisively describes AR's as "Barbie dolls for men," and as soon as I repeat that phrase I think twice about that accessory.

As much as I've learned from watching Larry Vickers on the tactical arms programs, even I had to question all the stuff he attached to his M4 he displayed on one of the programs. Given that a lot of it is for the TV show just to illustrate what you "can" do, it makes you wonder if some people believe the weapon won't even function without all that stuff on it.

For example, I'd bet most people could either mount a laser or a flashlight, but maybe won't need both. And if you bolt too much stuff on your gun, are you going to waste so much time fumbling with the accessories that you neglect to hone the skills of using the gun?

It's something to think about. As you add an accessory, make its function second nature to you before adding another. I'm not an expert, but that's my plan.

GunnutAF
01-03-11, 17:37
Agree 1000% - shoot the gun and most will find they don't need all the bells and whissles! :D Sorry I know I have offend all the I got to have every new bell and whissle hanging off my gun guy's!!:sarcastic:

hunter123
01-03-11, 19:39
I'm in the same situation. Trying to decide if its worth spending the money on a ADM recon scope mount when my burris pepr works just fine (just isnt quick detach).

$150 could buy a good amount of ammo...

I have no complaint with my burris pepr.It does what it is supposed to do.

Daekwan
01-04-11, 09:54
Great thread!

rob_s
04-08-11, 05:31
Based on some recent forum activity, this thread clearly needs bumping.

I don't know what started it, but in the last few weeks there has been a marked increase in the "critique my build" threads, almost all based in theory and almost all from people that are just getting started. You're doing it wrong.

If you have no experience with the M4-pattern carbine, there is no possible way for you to know what you "want" or "need" beyond staring at pictures on the internut. You need to learn to shoot the gun the way it comes out of the box and base your upgrades and changes on your actual use and experience and the shortcomings or needed improvements you identify from ACTUAL USE.

If your goal is an internut wall-hanger then (A) this is the wrong place for you as no amount of cool-guy specs are going to impress anyone here and (B) nobody but you knows what is neat-o so you can save yourself the trouble of posting your dream list.

and lest anyone think I'm making this up:
(these are just those with "critique" in the title, there are more)
1st LW build with a few questions, please critique! (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=77012)
Critique my upcoming (first) build (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=74804)
Critique my Current Build (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=73128)
Critique my specs (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=72866)
Critique my shtf build (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=70791)
Planning my second build critique it (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=69761)
Critique My Build (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=70728)

bullittmcqueen
04-08-11, 06:00
Next time i see someone start a thread on Glocktalk called "just bought a gen4 now where do I get a stainless steel guide rod?" I'm going to link this thread.....

Excellent stuff.

wetidlerjr
04-08-11, 08:01
Rob,
Do you think this AR I just built makes my butt look big ? :confused:














Just a little humor ! You make some real good points but the "Tacticool Force" is strong and hard for many to overcome.
Your ideas can easily apply to the 1911 world in which I have seen people do just what you have said and almost immediately "pimp out" a pistol that they have shot very little if at all.

rob_s
04-08-11, 08:12
Just a little humor ! You make some real good points but the "Tacticool Force" is strong and hard for many to overcome.
Your ideas can easily apply to the 1911 world in which I have seen people do just what you have said and almost immediately "pimp out" a pistol that they have shot very little if at all.

In the 1911 world they most often ruin a perfectly good gun. As an IDPA SO virtually every time I see someone with failures in a 1911 my first question is "reloads?" which, if answered in the negative, is followed by "what have you done to the gun?" At which point, often with some reluctance, the shooter begins describing a series of "improvements" and almost without fail at some point mentions the word "dremel".

The good news with the AR platform is that people are unlikely to comletely **** up the gun unless they get ahead of themselves installing parts on their own that they have no business touching (installing railed forends incorrectly so that they come loose, and aftermarket triggers incorrectly so that they don't function top the list) but even those things are usually correctable once their remove their head from their fourth point of contact and seek help from those more knowledgeable.

Pathfinder Ops
04-08-11, 08:40
THIS THREAD IS SPOT ON AND A FREQUENT RANT OF MINE.

I too am a proponent of simpler is better, within reason. My philosophy is that the AR you bought and what accessories go on it should be a process of evolution based on the: base platform, user, mission and finances interface. Not some final product that rolls onto the range or first training session before the operator has broken the seal on a couple ammo cases. (Loose translation: GO SHOOT THE GUN).

I agree that changing some things out is useful and instrumental AFTER you have taken the platform you bought down range and give it a work out. BETTER yet, go to a training course with it and really put it through it's paces. The value of this is that it will (presuming you attend a worthy program) really give you a feel for the guns ability and or quickly find its failing points as much as just make you a better user.

Through use, training and as someone else suggested; trying an item you are interested in that a friend has is a great way to figure out what is going to enhance your ability and experience.

I think that there are a LOT of cool photos on these sites and a ton of AR elitists with tons of useless factoids and ill gotten/ inaccurate opinions about the technology and usefulness of the AR parts/ accessory galaxy. And this sometimes gets out of perspective and flat out confusing. THERE IS ALSO A LOT OF GOOD INFO AROUND AS WELL, but its dicey trying to sort it all out.

What seems to get lost sometimes is that while things like, BAD levers, Diamond shaped sights and $250 rail systems (to name a few) are all worth evaluating and at some point integrating into your usage, HOWEVER, like ROB's OP is intended to say they represent graduate school, where getting your good quality basic platform and a bunch of ammo on a training/ practice range is the solid, elementary, foundation of the greater AR development for an individual user

A classic example is: Last summer I was running a Basic Combative Carbine course and while frequently people come to these classes with some accessories they don't need (3 point slings, vertical fore grips), one guy actually showed up with a "slick" DPMS and a VERY expensive Green Laser attached to the for-end. When questioned about it he told me he had been doing some "research on line" and was convinced by that research that it was "the definitive approach to target acquisition in the widest scope of environments." And that he was (from a safety perspective in a HD situation) comfortable knowing "the only thing that is going to get shot is the thing "I put that green dot on." His theory was that it helped him with target selection and accuracy. IMMEDIATELY there after we taught him how to get his iron sight 50 yard BZO, which took more than 50 rounds because he was such a friggin soup sandwich in every other way.

For me; things like changing triggers out almost seems superfluous. True, competition shooters will want to tweak things like this and for good reason but for the majority of us LONG before money gets spent on things like that I say:
Buy as good a quality platform as you can afford.
Buy a case of decent ammo.
Get a membership to a gun club if you can't access an appropriate private space. GO SHOOT THE GUN.
Sign into a worthy training course. GO SHOOT THE GUN.

THEN if you wanna start spending buy:
A couple extra magazines and MORE AMMO. GO SHOOT THE GUN.
A cleaning kit.
A Light and some way to attach it appropriately (NOT by buying a $250 +/- rail system). Then GO SHOOT THE GUN in low light.
Buy a sling that you have decided will best support the training & usages you have experienced or the mission you anticipate. Then GO SHOOT THE GUN.

All the hightech, CDI and is way cool no doubt and I DO have and DO suggest folks eventually gravitate towards these things but like the majority here have proposed; not till you GO SHOOT THE GUN.

Then you and your gun will evolve correct for your situation/ mission.

SUMMARY:
Hey, Inspector Gadget! Get off the internet. Stop shopping like a Drag Queen on Cape Cod and GO SHOOT THE GUN!

polymorpheous
04-08-11, 08:49
What it looked like when I first built it.
Vanilla sans the Vltor stock.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2712/4371533927_a2ea7fd68a_z.jpg?zz=1

2 years, many drills, (live fire and dry fire), and a few thousand rounds later.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5230/5600629890_e3ce224b23_z.jpg

The only thing on it that I'm not satisfied with is the ARMS mount. But it came with the Aimpoint. Well... That and I seemed to have added 2 lbs to my original configuration.

arizonaranchman
04-08-11, 10:26
I've subscribed to the KISS principle for years. I hate gadgets and cumbersome BS on my guns.

The pic below is as complicated as any AR I own... Basic BCM middy with Aimpoint, Troy folding sights and an MI flastlite mount on the FSB. A basic or single point sling to top it off. Couldn't be happier and have no desire to change them beyond this.

My 1911 I've carried since 1986 is nearly stock also, just some minor alterations over the years to enhance reliability and had it dehorned.

Doc Safari
04-08-11, 10:48
Rob,
Do you think this AR I just built makes my butt look big ? :confused:


LOL! That's a classic.

In line with my previous post in this thread, light weight was always my main reason for owning the AR, so I don't plan to accessorize them nearly to the point that a lot of people do anyway.

So far the only accessories (other than mags) that I've purchased have been slings and back-up rear sights or carrying handle sights.

Not just with AR's, but also with any platform, I don't start adding optics, lights, etc., until I believe I have mastered the way the gun is sighted in with iron sights. Then and only then do I look into Aimpoints, lasers, and whatnot.

I think that should be a rule of thumb for anyone.

rob_s
04-08-11, 10:49
Just to be clear, this is not about "KISS" if that means anachronistic clinging to outdated technology in spite of better ways to do things or gear or equipment that will improve a shooter's ability to rapidly get hits on target.

This is, however, about getting out and getting shooting and making choices based on actual use rather than theoretical opinions of others.

The problem with the first group is that in reality they are no better than those that bolt things to the gun without knowing why.

tylerw02
04-08-11, 11:10
This thread inspired me to get out my 10/22 yesterday and work on the fundamentals. I think some people should do that, too. For the price of a "good" quad-rail, a guy can buy a 10/22 and a couple bricks of ammunition. A guy should reevaluate his needs in an AR with observed drawbacks. If it doesn't improve your shooting, you don't need to waste money on it.

MistWolf
04-08-11, 12:14
Just to be clear, this is not about "KISS" if that means anachronistic clinging to outdated technology in spite of better ways to do things or gear or equipment that will improve a shooter's ability to rapidly get hits on target.

This is, however, about getting out and getting shooting and making choices based on actual use rather than theoretical opinions of others.

The problem with the first group is that in reality they are no better than those that bolt things to the gun without knowing why.

I'm glad you brought this up. I am an old curmudgeon and very reluctant to install anything that needs a battery on any firearm. I have not used any kind of electronic sight. Iron sights were good enough for Grandpa, they are certainly good enough for me and plain old scopes were good enough for Dad. However, this site has convinced me I need to try an Aimpoint Micro and, of course, shoot it

markm
04-08-11, 12:22
I'm glad you brought this up. I am an old curmudgeon and very reluctant to install anything that needs a battery on any firearm.

Until they make an LED that powers off of your aura... there's no getting around some batteries.

(or maybe one of those Shake Lights)

MistWolf
04-08-11, 12:47
Until they make an LED that powers off of your aura...

I built one of those in a Wolf Hollow Secret Laboratory at an undisclosed location. When tested, it burned a hole through the thick, steel re-enforced walls, stunned every cockroach within 300 meters, cured cancer in Aunt May, caused three world leaders to embrace world peace, knocked the feathers off my brother's parakeet and a girl I hadn't heard from since high school called to tell me she was pregnant with 8 sets of twins.

I didn't think the paternity suit would stick, but I figured why take chances, switched off the light and hid it in a deep underground vault, never to be spoken of again

Doc Safari
04-08-11, 12:57
Until they make an LED that powers off of your aura... there's no getting around some batteries.

(or maybe one of those Shake Lights)


Yes, but battery life is hardly a consideration with some of the advanced red dot sights today.

I'm sure there's an Aimpoint T-1 in my future, but I've got to stock up on ammo and maybe mags first.

wetidlerjr
04-08-11, 13:11
...2 years, many drills, (live fire and dry fire), and a few thousand rounds later.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5230/5600629890_e3ce224b23_z.jpg...

I like that. I like that a lot. :D

markm
04-08-11, 13:12
Yes, but battery life is hardly a consideration with some of the advanced red dot sights today.


Yes... and battery life is pretty good with the LED gun lights too. I ran the crap out of my 123a batteries in my gun light on an overnight "search and rescue" mission a few weekends back. I couldn't believe they still tested about 100% when I checked them the other day.

It's not so much Battery life as you can put extras in your deployment pack. It's battery failure or electronic failure/switches, etc. at inopportune moments. There's a certain amount of risk in using technology as a crutch... be it GPS, Range finders, whatever.

Doc Safari
04-08-11, 13:16
It's not so much Battery life as you can put extras in your deployment pack. It's battery failure or electronic failure/switches, etc. at inopportune moments. There's a certain amount of risk in using technology as a crutch... be it GPS, Range finders, whatever.

Hence my philosophy to run the irons until you're competent with them, then add enhancements. :cool:

polymorpheous
04-08-11, 13:29
Yes... and battery life is pretty good with the LED gun lights too. I ran the crap out of my 123a batteries in my gun light on an overnight "search and rescue" mission a few weekends back. I couldn't believe they still tested about 100% when I checked them the other day.


This is good info.
What light was it?
Would I expect the same out of a Surefire bulb assembly?

polymorpheous
04-08-11, 13:30
I like that. I like that a lot. :D

Thanks!
I like it too!
Points and balances well. I just recently refinished the receivers. Breaks it up nicely.

wetidlerjr
04-08-11, 13:32
Hence my philosophy to run the irons until you're competent with them, then add enhancements. :cool:

I just wish I had my 18 year old eyes that used to let me "run the irons" out to 500 meters. But you are right, the basics need to come first (in my NEVER humble opinion).

walter34payton2002
04-08-11, 13:57
I have a little more than a decade of AR experience. Started with irons only and stock for a long time. With my latest build I have many bells and whistles, but I know exactly why I need them. Some may disagree, but I am the one who has to be accurate and quick with it....

On to my point. After that build I pieced together a nearly stock DPMS with no add-ons for my wife. She shoots it, but shoots mine sometimes too. She knows exactly what she wants now- Hogue grip because she hates the A2, a red dot (maybe EOTech, but shes ok with irons for now), vertical foregrip because she shoots better with one and she hates holding handguards. On that we will go with the MOE and add rail pieces as needed. She also wants a bipod because she sometimes likes shooting from the bench. All of those things she selected by experiencing what worked and what didn't. When we get her what sh wants, she will be a better shooter and a quicker shot. That's what it's all about. Eventually we'll get her out of a DPMS and into something like I have, but as often as she shoots the DPMS is perfect.

rob_s
07-07-11, 09:24
I think this bears reviving.

Something else I've been watching over the last 6 months to a year, is an increased obsession with minutiae. If you don't know, from your own personal experience, why you are doing a thing, don't do it. Go shoot the gun. Determine if there is a problem.

Case in point is this recent spike in discussions about buffers, springs, gas ports, etc. Whether it be from a desire to manage or reduce "felt recoil" or "muzzle climb" or to "tune the gun for optimal suppressor use", if this is your first or second AR and you only have 200 rounds on the AR FOW, you need to reconsider your path. Yes, we all have silly amounts of free time when we can't get to the range so we go online and discuss inconsequential things, but be careful implementing it. For every thread about "optimal gas port/buffer/spring/etc." there's two for those guys that tried to optimize all that crap and then can't get the gun to run.

Go shoot the gun. Identify shortcomings in the platform that you want to address. The less you fidget with shit, believe it or not, the more forgiving the platform. I have two Colt 6933s. Both will run reliably, suppressed and unsuppressed, with XM193, with buffers ranging from C to H2. If some of these threads of late are to be believed this is wholly impossible, yet there they are, sample size of two, chugging away simply because they don't know they aren't supposed to.

If you have a question about something, ask the question you mean. If you don't know what buffer was intended to be mated to an upper you have, don't ask about the gas port size, chamber dimension, day of the week it was manufactured on, which chrome-lining subcontractor of three possible was utilized, and whether it was raining or sunny on the day the upper was assembled; ask what buffer to use.

and then go shoot the gun. It is not the end of the universe if it doesn't run. Put another buffer in it. Nobody in their right mind would research all of the above, take it all as gospel, assemble a gun based on that information, and then fast-rope into a compound in Pakistan to shoot Bin Laden. If you really want to hedge your bets, buy a sampling of buffers, and test a new gun with all of them. You have to zero and function check a new gun anyway right? Take advantage of that time and multi-task. But do it on the range, not in your head. I keep on-hand C, H, H2, and H3 (and often have a Spikes ST-T-2 and a Colt 9mm as well). All of these are there for my own use if I have a problem with a new gun, but I use them exponentially more often to un-fornicate other people's guns. There they are, telling me "but my gas port size is a 0.y and the internets told me I needed an H3 buffer", with repeated feeding issues, and 5 minutes later they are up and running with an H. :p

DocGKR
07-07-11, 09:39
Rob_S: well said!

People need to spend more time shooting smartly and less time talking about it.

mtdawg169
07-07-11, 09:46
I think this bears reviving.

Something else I've been watching over the last 6 months to a year, is an increased obsession with minutiae. If you don't know, from your own personal experience, why you are doing a thing, don't do it. Go shoot the gun. Determine if there is a problem.

Case in point is this recent spike in discussions about buffers, springs, gas ports, etc. Whether it be from a desire to manage or reduce "felt recoil" or "muzzle climb" or to "tune the gun for optimal suppressor use", if this is your first or second AR and you only have 200 rounds on the AR FOW, you need to reconsider your path. Yes, we all have silly amounts of free time when we can't get to the range so we go online and discuss inconsequential things, but be careful implementing it. For every thread about "optimal gas port/buffer/spring/etc." there's two for those guys that tried to optimize all that crap and then can't get the gun to run.

Go shoot the gun. Identify shortcomings in the platform that you want to address. The less you fidget with shit, believe it or not, the more forgiving the platform. I have two Colt 6933s. Both will run reliably, suppressed and unsuppressed, with XM193, with buffers ranging from C to H2. If some of these threads of late are to be believed this is wholly impossible, yet there they are, sample size of two, chugging away simply because they don't know they aren't supposed to.

If you have a question about something, ask the question you mean. If you don't know what buffer was intended to be mated to an upper you have, don't ask about the gas port size, chamber dimension, day of the week it was manufactured on, which chrome-lining subcontractor of three possible was utilized, and whether it was raining or sunny on the day the upper was assembled; ask what buffer to use.

and then go shoot the gun. It is not the end of the universe if it doesn't run. Put another buffer in it. Nobody in their right mind would research all of the above, take it all as gospel, assemble a gun based on that information, and then fast-rope into a compound in Pakistan to shoot Bin Laden. If you really want to hedge your bets, buy a sampling of buffers, and test a new gun with all of them. You have to zero and function check a new gun anyway right? Take advantage of that time and multi-task. But do it on the range, not in your head. I keep on-hand C, H, H2, and H3 (and often have a Spikes ST-T-2 and a Colt 9mm as well). All of these are there for my own use if I have a problem with a new gun, but I use them exponentially more often to un-fornicate other people's guns. There they are, telling me "but my gas port size is a 0.y and the internets told me I needed an H3 buffer", with repeated feeding issues, and 5 minutes later they are up and running with an H. :p

Well said Rob. I have lost count of the number of buffer / spring discussions that have come up in the last six months, many of them being complaints about a new gun malfunction after somebody read that an X buffer and wunderspring was the "best". Just last month, I was at the range next to a fellow who had completed his first two builds. Bear in mind that these were also his first two AR's ever. He set them up just like the internet told him to, using spikes buffers and some kind of supersprings. Right out of the gate, one of the rifles was shortstroking. I helped him out, swapped his spring & buffer out for a CAR spring & H buffer and he was good to go. Funny thing is, that wasn't his only issue. He had some sort of SS parts kit in one of them, including the FCG. It was doubling on him and would not reset unless I pushed the trigger forward as hard as I could during a function check. I advised him to put the gun away for the day and replace the FCG asap with a known good milspec from Colt or BCM. First time to the range with a couple internet advised wonder guns and nothing but trouble.

Palmguy
07-07-11, 10:00
I'm glad you brought this up. I am an old curmudgeon and very reluctant to install anything that needs a battery on any firearm. I have not used any kind of electronic sight. Iron sights were good enough for Grandpa, they are certainly good enough for me and plain old scopes were good enough for Dad. However, this site has convinced me I need to try an Aimpoint Micro and, of course, shoot it

There is a problem with these kinds of appeals to tradition though; would grandpa have chosen only iron sights if a modern RDS was an option at the time? Or put another way, would grandpa have fallen prey to a similar appeal by selecting a bow & arrow or musket instead of a Garand because that's what his forefathers utilized?

I'm not trying to beat up on you, after all you are planning to try out a Micro...I just don't understand the "we didn't need Aimpoints to beat the Nazis" argument; the KISS crowd can go overboard with these notions sometime. Technology can and should be embraced where it can be used advantageously and can be embraced without it necessarily becoming a crutch.

RetreatHell
07-07-11, 10:24
Best. Thread. Ever. (golf clap)

Seriously, thank you, brother!

I've actually been thinking a lot about this lately myself. I just bought a new BCM 12.5 upper last week and decided to get back to basics... to an extent anyways. I'm gonna forego the Aimpoint and just shoot it with the Troy irons for a bit. I'm also not going to put a brake on it, and instead will use the Surefire flash hider (for my Surefire can).

I want to step back a bit (roll back?) and just focus on marksmanship and shooting for a little while, and refine my skills with iron sights. I'm planning on doing the same with a 14.5" upper as well.

I already went to war and fought with an M-16A2, and have NO desire to go back to being that basic, but I just want to work on some fundamentals and tone things down a bit for a little while.

rob_s
07-07-11, 10:33
Best. Thread. Ever. (golf clap)

Seriously, thank you, brother!

I've actually been thinking a lot about this lately myself. I just bought a new BCM 12.5 upper last week and decided to get back to basics... to an extent anyways. I'm gonna forego the Aimpoint and just shoot it with the Troy irons for a bit. I'm also not going to put a brake on it, and instead will use the Surefire flash hider (for my Surefire can).

I want to step back a bit (roll back?) and just focus on marksmanship and shooting for a little while, and refine my skills with iron sights. I'm planning on doing the same with a 14.5" upper as well.

I already went to war and fought with an M-16A2, and have NO desire to go back to being that basic, but I just want to work on some fundamentals and tone things down a bit for a little while.

Thanks man. I very much respect your opinion.

You hit on exactly one of my recent thoughts, and that is that for those of outside a combat zone, we have the luxury of getting it "right" with the carbine. We NEED our pistol skills, techniques, guns, and gear to be optimized as that is what we have on our bodies or close at hand and therefore what we are going to use to resolve a violent encounter. And outside of manipulations, good pistol skills translate directly to the carbine.

Last November I went back and re-took Randy Cain's Carbine 1 class with iron sights. I'm not necessarily a proponent of the idea that we HAVE TO learn irons first, but we all need to get acquainted with them at some point. This past drills night we had a very open-minded shooter who took Randy's class the first time with irons, and has been shooting irons since. We were working lateral transitions and he did great, even with the irons, even on the move, even in the reduced light. He now feels confident in his abilities both with the irons and in terms of the fundamentals, and is looking to get an RDS.

Optical sights are such a huge advantage that I think there is merit to starting out on them, but pretty much everything else on the carbine is either an attempt to circumvent the fundamentals or to tailor the gun to our own needs. Needs that we can't possibly identify without shooting the gun.

Doc Safari
07-07-11, 10:45
It's timely for me too that this thread has been bumped again. I've been collecting nothing but mags and ammo for my BCM M4. The only change I've made to the rifle so far is to add one of those side sling swivels like on the Colt M4 because I prefer to carry the gun at port arms.

I'm going to chill out for a while, learn to hit with the irons at any range I expect to use the carbine, and study various accessories before I spend the money on any.

I plan to put an RDS and a light on the carbine at some point, but not before I have a chance to look at what friends are using, handle items at gun shows, see setups at the range, maybe attend a class or two, and so forth.

John_Burns
07-07-11, 11:35
I come at this from a little different point of view.

Discussion is good and experimentation is good.

The most interesting thing for me is how, over the years, guys have learned about the internet and the good and bad information available. More and more guys have learned to separate the wheat from the chaff in these types of discussions and saved themselves tons of time in their own personal experimentation.

Personally I donít want to try every bolt, buffer, spring, port size, gas system to find what works best for me. For example, I am comfortable not having experimented with Low Mass systems as my research shows me that such things are not suitable for my purposes.

On the other hand, I would not have learned about the Vltor A5 extension with reading about it on internet and I really like that product.

A smart guy learns from others mistake and anytime I can get a leg up, by reading how others have had success and failure, I consider that a win.

Again, it is not hard for most to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I also figure guys shoot as much as they can, given their circumstances. I seriously doubt many give up shooting time to chat on gun forums.

rob_s
07-07-11, 11:51
I also figure guys shoot as much as they can, given their circumstances. I seriously doubt many give up shooting time to chat on gun forums.

I think this is *generally* true as well.

However that's not what this is about.

Boss Hogg
07-07-11, 11:57
Rob- great post. Sage advice.

BCmJUnKie
07-07-11, 11:59
I love this thread, it was one of the first I read after joining.

Honestly I think anyone new should be pointed here, before they open their mouth and ask questions about the new "build". (hate that word BTW).

I have had my optics off for about a month now, I missed it. I love irons and ive always done pretty well with them.

I think if someone can take that baby step and start off by going back to irons, it would open a new window on what they really "need".

Boss Hogg
07-07-11, 12:00
I seriously doubt many give up shooting time to chat on gun forums.

I think you'd be surprised.

Shooting AR-15s is not an inexpensive hobby, either on a fixed (hardware) or variable (ammo) cost basis. I think most guys shoot as much as their ammo budget allows. Which, these days, isn't much as it used to be. Discretionary funds are tighter, ammo costs have increased bigtime, they don't want to make long gas-guzzling drives to the range, etc.

bornhunter04
07-07-11, 12:41
Great post Rob, I read this thread when you posted it, and am glad it's been revived. Great ideas. I'm currently stockpiling mags and ammo (as funding allows). I have one carbine (very limited experience with this weapon), with irons and a vertical grip. That's it. Gonna shoot the living shit out of it before i do anything more to it other than ambi controls that is....... Lots of good info on this sight but everything must be taken with a grain of salt. Baby steps people baby steps..... Time and the weather are usually the only things that keep me from the range are time, distance, and weather!

John_Burns
07-07-11, 12:46
I think this is *generally* true as well.

However that's not what this is about.

I guess what I figured this was about was guys reading about AR setups and then giving said setup a run. Hence the rest of my post.

I enjoy reading your posts and have gotten some really good info from your posts but I do find it really ironic whenever anyone writes a post on the internet about not believing things on the internet. Is the point we should just believe you?

Heck even you admit you went down quite a few paths that didnít get you where you wanted. It really is just the way it works for most of us. I actually ignored a lot of damn good advice my parents sent my way.

There is no question that sites such as this are somewhat of a double edged sword for guys just starting out, but I really think the positives far out weight the negatives. Yea a guy might end up at the range with something that doesnít work but as you said, thatís not the end of the world.

He might also get exactly what he wants right from the get go.

I would suspect a guy who read everything he could on the internet for 3 months has a much better chance of having his first AR be something he enjoys for years than the guy who never does any research and just goes to the gun shop and picks up whatever the guy behind the counter recommends.

Shooting is great but, as most here seem to agree, it is a precious commodity. In my case I am shooting most days of the week but I much prefer to do some research up front to increase my odds of having things fall into place, rather than depend completely on the school of hard knocks.

MistWolf
07-07-11, 12:53
There is a problem with these kinds of appeals to tradition though; would grandpa have chosen only iron sights if a modern RDS was an option at the time? Or put another way, would grandpa have fallen prey to a similar appeal by selecting a bow & arrow or musket instead of a Garand because that's what his forefathers utilized?

I'm not trying to beat up on you, after all you are planning to try out a Micro...I just don't understand the "we didn't need Aimpoints to beat the Nazis" argument; the KISS crowd can go overboard with these notions sometime. Technology can and should be embraced where it can be used advantageously and can be embraced without it necessarily becoming a crutch.

Because you weren't around when Aimpoints had a battery life of just a few hours, bulky flashlights with fragile bulbs were bubba'd to a rifle with duct tape and night vision was a huge infrared light & scope connected to a car battery. Grandpa would have embraced the current Aimpoint, but he would have chucked the original version as quickly as he did the gas mask.

It's natural to stick with what's proven to work. Take a look at the attitude towards HPT/MPI for AR barrels & bolts today. When the right materials and manufacturing methods are used, HPT/MPI is no longer needed to assure quality. Yet, because the process might someday find a bad bolt, there are those that will not use bolts that haven't been tested. Grandpa had a hard time giving up his tried & true '03 & 03-A3 Springfield for that "new-fangled Garand", but when the Garand started proving itself, Grandpa would "swap" his '03 for a Garand with any unsuspecting owner who didn't sleep in his foxhole with one eye open.

The reluctance to trade the known for the unknown is a survival trait. But, as pointed out, one must also have the wisdom to recognize when something new is better and the only way to know for sure is to try it- to go out & shoot and to evaluate honestly

Fire_Medic
07-07-11, 13:27
I will throw in my $0.02 here......

I am glad this thread was revived as I feel it's very easy to not shoot so much and get caught up in I "need" this and I "need" that. I am local to Rob_S, and make it out to the drill nights when I can, and I ALWAYS learn a thing or two when I go out. I'm one of those guys who feels you can "always" learn something, a mentality that I have developed and maintained mainly to my profession, as you need it with things changing ever so constantly.

When Rob first wrote this I had just started looking into AR's, and his posts and Chart have saved me a lot of grief and $ along the way. When I went to my first Carbine class I took with me an Aimpoint I had borrowed from a friend, and at the suggestion of the instructor, it stayed in my rifle bag and I shot all 3 days with irons. This thought was also implied to me before the class by Paul (Retreathell) and it was embedded by me thinking of Rob standing behind me with his snarling little look saying, c'mon you pu#$y, you need to learn the fundamentals first.

Well needless to say, I hated my friggin life on TD1, and half of TD2, but some point after lunch on TD2 everything just started to freaking click on for me, and TD3 I was going about as good as I could running irons in the class. I was a VERY new shooter at that point and the 200 yard shooting with irons was a VERY humbling experience to say the least. I gave my self a pat on the back, and went on my way.

Well fast forward more than a year, I have not been out shooting as much as I use to because "life happens" sometimes, and recently I went out again to shoot. This is where it dawned on me what a great service I did to myself by keeping the borrowed RDS in the case in said class above. I was shooting much better than I anticipated, and my fundamentals were still there, I attribute this to the instructor and content of the class I took (TY Mr. Cain) and the fact that I was able to put my ego aside enough to run just irons for 3 days. I fell back to my training, and for me was this class because it was my first class. The folks who recommended this class to me as my "first" were spot on, and I could never express my gratitude enough for that.

I think it's important to remember the basics, but still use certain newer technologies but without getting carried away. I have found some things in my limited experience that do and don't work for me, and I am still always learning as training progresses and evolves, and as I try new things.

It's very easy to get caught up in all the BS, and then at the end of the day you realize, I need to GO SHOOT THE GUN :lol:

This moment of enlightenment if you want to call it that, is why I started that other thread on the "1 fighting rifle", I thought it would be a good idea for all of us to take a step back and think about what really is important and what isn't, but sometimes you just need to have someone pose the right question for this to happen. I also find it interesting how the "general" thought of what a KISS rifle is has changed, even in as much as the last year, and I think for the most part for the better.

As someone else already posted, there's a lot of BS on the net, but if you can sift through it, there's still a lot of valuable information here as well.

FM ;)

Dennis
07-07-11, 13:32
I just realized that over the past two months I have put 1500+ non-training rounds downrange at indoor ranges to verify functionality and diagnose various issues with my AR's since I can't seem to leave well enough alone and upgraded uppers and BCG's and lube and did way too much troubleshooting with a Magpul BAD and midlength upper before just taking it off.

So while I obviously agree with Rob_S about shooting first and asking questions later :p, I also appreciate the opportunity these forums offer to learn from others experience and save ammo/time/money. Everyone needs to balance the theoretical and practical and try to combine the lessons given here with some actual shooting and running the carbine in situations you want it to run in!

Dennis.

rob_s
07-07-11, 13:51
I guess what I figured this was about was guys reading about AR setups and then giving said setup a run. Hence the rest of my post.

I enjoy reading your posts and have gotten some really good info from your posts but I do find it really ironic whenever anyone writes a post on the internet about not believing things on the internet. Is the point we should just believe you?

Heck even you admit you went down quite a few paths that didnít get you where you wanted. It really is just the way it works for most of us. I actually ignored a lot of damn good advice my parents sent my way.

There is no question that sites such as this are somewhat of a double edged sword for guys just starting out, but I really think the positives far out weight the negatives. Yea a guy might end up at the range with something that doesnít work but as you said, thatís not the end of the world.

He might also get exactly what he wants right from the get go.

I would suspect a guy who read everything he could on the internet for 3 months has a much better chance of having his first AR be something he enjoys for years than the guy who never does any research and just goes to the gun shop and picks up whatever the guy behind the counter recommends.

Shooting is great but, as most here seem to agree, it is a precious commodity. In my case I am shooting most days of the week but I much prefer to do some research up front to increase my odds of having things fall into place, rather than depend completely on the school of hard knocks.

The point is, go shoot BEFORE you do all that stupid shit. People are getting their cart before the horse. If you want to do stupid shit to your gun, fine, but GO SHOOT THE GUN first and identify what problems you think need addressing.

The secondary problem related to this is the number of people that shoot in a relative vacuum. But that's another topic altogether.

Palmguy
07-07-11, 13:56
Because you weren't around when Aimpoints had a battery life of just a few hours, bulky flashlights with fragile bulbs were bubba'd to a rifle with duct tape and night vision was a huge infrared light & scope connected to a car battery. Grandpa would have embraced the current Aimpoint, but he would have chucked the original version as quickly as he did the gas mask.

It's natural to stick with what's proven to work. Take a look at the attitude towards HPT/MPI for AR barrels & bolts today. When the right materials and manufacturing methods are used, HPT/MPI is no longer needed to assure quality. Yet, because the process might someday find a bad bolt, there are those that will not use bolts that haven't been tested. Grandpa had a hard time giving up his tried & true '03 & 03-A3 Springfield for that "new-fangled Garand", but when the Garand started proving itself, Grandpa would "swap" his '03 for a Garand with any unsuspecting owner who didn't sleep in his foxhole with one eye open.

The reluctance to trade the known for the unknown is a survival trait. But, as pointed out, one must also have the wisdom to recognize when something new is better and the only way to know for sure is to try it- to go out & shoot and to evaluate honestly

I'm not sure we're really disagreeing here. I'm talking about the here and now where things like Aimpoints and flashlights are refined and proven.

rob_s
07-07-11, 13:59
I'm not sure we're really disagreeing here. I'm talking about the here and now where things like Aimpoints and flashlights are refined and proven.

But it's much easier to languish in the past, and use the FURTHER past as an excuse to do so! :lol:

"I just can't get used to them horseless carriages. One of 'em passed me one day on the road, a sputterin' and a coughin', kickin' up a hell of a dust storm. Yeah, he was fastern' me, until I caught up to him at the four corners and seen him there, cussin' and a swearin', some kinda water leakin' outta the bottom of the thing. Ain't so fast now are ya mr. fancy-pants! Naw, I'll just go right on riding my old mule Bessie in to town. She gets me there 'ventually, and I ain't got much need for goin' to town anyhow."

:lol:

JohnnyC
07-07-11, 14:03
I've got my super whiz bang PEQ'd Aimpoint'd light'd carbine of justice for when the zombies come.

I can tell you my next gun will be a 12.5", DD MFR with irons only, and a stock trigger. Maybe put a mount for my M4-2000, I just find it more pleasant to shoot with a can, and to be honest it doesn't affect the fundamentals.

It's good to get back to basics, and I actually enjoy shooting like that more than with all the super cool guy shit slung on my gun. It's more challenging, and in my mind, often more enjoyable. RetreatHell has it right.

P51Mustangrulz
07-07-11, 14:29
Rob,

This is an excellent post! I am new to AR-15s myself, but have put about 1,000 rounds through my 6920, and I have recently put an Eotech on it after first learning how to use its irons.

My next thing that I'd like to do at some point is get a fail zero bcg in there. I know it's not necessary, but the whole steel moving part in an aluminum gun bothers me. I know it should not...but it does!
(Must be because of my also being a lover of Sig Sauers).

But you have written excellent advice! I'm definitely glad that I got to know my rifle before going all crazy on it!

Palmguy
07-07-11, 14:31
Rob,

This is an excellent post! I am new to AR-15s myself, but have put about 1,000 rounds through my 6920, and I have recently put an Eotech on it after first learning how to use its irons.

My next thing that I'd like to do at some point is get a fail zero bcg in there. I know it's not necessary, but the whole steel moving part in an aluminum gun bothers me. I know it should not...but it does!
(Must be because of my also being a lover of Sig Sauers).

But you have written excellent advice! I'm definitely glad that I got to know my rifle before going all crazy on it!

You are correct when you say that it shouldn't bother you. The bolt carrier/upper receiver interface in an AR-15/M4/M16 is not exactly uncharted waters.

John_Burns
07-07-11, 14:40
The point is, go shoot BEFORE you do all that stupid shit. People are getting their cart before the horse. If you want to do stupid shit to your gun, fine, but GO SHOOT THE GUN first and identify what problems you think need addressing.

The secondary problem related to this is the number of people that shoot in a relative vacuum. But that's another topic altogether.


Well maybe I am a little more selfish than you. I really donít care if someone wants to do stupid shit to their gun, I reckon I have done my share and if we can spread the wealth and let someone else be a guinea pig I wonít complain. I just want them to shoot it AFTER and give an honest evaluation so I can skip the really stupid shit.

For me the worst is the guy who does the stupid shit and never shoots it after, but wants to shout from the highest rooftop how part xyz is the ultimate super duper whiz bang.


Naw, I'll just go right on riding my old mule Bessie in to town. She gets me there 'ventually, and I ain't got much need for goin' to town anyhow."

:lol:


On a side note I ride mules but donít have any named Bessie.:D

rob_s
07-07-11, 14:54
Well maybe I am a little more selfish than you. I really donít care if someone wants to do stupid shit to their gun, I reckon I have done my share and if we can spread the wealth and let someone else be a guinea pig I wonít complain. I just want them to shoot it AFTER and give an honest evaluation so I can skip the really stupid shit.

I think you're still looking at it wrong.

They are here either asking for advice or proselytizing about one thing or another (such as, "you gotta have a good trigger to hit anything"). So there is already an opening of advice, etc. The age old question of the internets has always been "why do you give a shit what someone else is doing?" with the obvious problem being that if someone isn't asking for advice and someone else isn't giving it, what's the point?

People come and ask "what's the best trigger?" or "what's the best rail?" or whatever. The point here, if you go back and read the original post in the thread, is that if you just go shoot the gun first you will actually save yourself money in the long run, most often because you will discover you don't actually require any of that shit. If, at that point, you still decide to fart around with the thing then by all means have at it, but no amount of internut research is going to replace range time. Even if you *think* you want that A5 stock you have to have a baseline to compare it to.

CobraBG
07-07-11, 15:34
This is a very good thread Rob. I completely agree with your point. :) I don't have the in depth experience that many on this site have but I am not a newb.

My 6920 is my 4th AR and the most plain one I own as well as my favorite to shoot. I've had this one for a few years and have done very little to it. I changed the grip, trigger guard, charging handle and added a Troy folding rear sight. It is slim, light weight and reliable. I keep thinking about a RDS someday... maybe, maybe not.

John_Burns
07-07-11, 15:50
I think you're still looking at it wrong.

They are here either asking for advice or proselytizing about one thing or another (such as, "you gotta have a good trigger to hit anything"). So there is already an opening of advice, etc. The age old question of the internets has always been "why do you give a shit what someone else is doing?" with the obvious problem being that if someone isn't asking for advice and someone else isn't giving it, what's the point?

People come and ask "what's the best trigger?" or "what's the best rail?" or whatever. The point here, if you go back and read the original post in the thread, is that if you just go shoot the gun first you will actually save yourself money in the long run, most often because you will discover you don't actually require any of that shit. If, at that point, you still decide to fart around with the thing then by all means have at it, but no amount of internut research is going to replace range time. Even if you *think* you want that A5 stock you have to have a baseline to compare it to.

I get your point, I just donít 100% agree.

By that logic a first time AR buyer should ignore all of your hard work with the chart that you have graciously made available and just buy the cheapest stripped down AR-15 available.

He should then shoot it and then decide what if anything he should upgrade.

I say he is better off using the resource of the internet (your chart being a great example) and getting an idea of what he wants the gun to do first and then selecting the gun and components on that basis. He might not get exactly what he expected but then again it might just work out fine and dandy.

You have to buy stuff before you can shoot it and doing your research first will save you time and money.

I donít believe you have to spend time shooting a stripped down gun to know if you will want an upgrade trigger. If a guy is used to and enjoys good triggers there is no reason to believe he will not want one on his AR.

I donít believe you need to shoot with irons before graduation to the optic. If your range time is going to be limited then I would recommend you go right to optics and get the most number of rounds possible with the setup you will have when the chips are down.

In fact my first AR was purchased before there were flattops (that I knew of) and went under the milling machine for a custom optics base almost immediately. I knew from my past shooting that there was no way in the world iron sights would work for the purpose I had in mind when I purchased the gun.

As to the A5 I can absolutely say if I had never used anything else on a carbine my life would have been slightly better. Might not be the end all be all but there were a few times in the past that some degree of frustration could have been avoided if I had never had any extension on a carbine but the A5.

I think that internet research can certainly augment range time and as I previously said and you conditionally agreed with most guys are not substituting range time with internet time but instead adding to the range time with research.

ALCOAR
07-07-11, 16:02
.........

MistWolf
07-07-11, 17:36
I'm not sure we're really disagreeing here. I'm talking about the here and now where things like Aimpoints and flashlights are refined and proven.

You're correct, we are in agreement. I was explaining why an RDS or other electronic device fell under the "Didn't need it to beat the Nazis" category (at least for myself) not to disagree or try to prove "I am MORE correct than thou!" Just trying to help folks understand.


But it's much easier to languish in the past, and use the FURTHER past as an excuse to do so! :lol:

"I just can't get used to them horseless carriages. One of 'em passed me one day on the road, a sputterin' and a coughin', kickin' up a hell of a dust storm. Yeah, he was fastern' me, until I caught up to him at the four corners and seen him there, cussin' and a swearin', some kinda water leakin' outta the bottom of the thing. Ain't so fast now are ya mr. fancy-pants! Naw, I'll just go right on riding my old mule Bessie in to town. She gets me there 'ventually, and I ain't got much need for goin' to town anyhow."

:lol:

I agree here, too. I love technology but it's gotta be functional. I don't want anything that doesn't work, is fragile or is high maintenance on my firearms. I don't want to replace a battery after just a few hours of use, or find the sight is useless because I forgot to turn it off before putting the rifle away. Let someone else deal with that headache. I'll wait until they improve it.

They have.

There a real danger in not allowing oneself recognizing that technology has gotten good enough to trust. I admit, this describes me in this case. I had not kept up with RDS developments addressing battery life and fragility. I did not know how well made Aimpoints have become. I now know the modern RDS and flashlights are effective and trustworty force multipliers. Matter of fact, I'm can't wait until I have saved enough for a carbine upper & Aimpoint to try and will happily shoot it to see how it works.

Yes, it's time I retired ol' Bessie and move into the modern age

dpaqu
07-07-11, 18:33
I think there is somthing to be said for learning the manual of arms on a stock gun be it a M4, M16a2 or an AK. I know this is not exactly what your talking about but it's along a similar line of thought.

JohnnyC
07-07-11, 19:14
I should add a caveat to my thoughts. I don't get upset when someone puts a 2-stage trigger in an AR (provided it is quality). The M16 is the first US military firearm to have a single stage trigger, and many people are far more comfortable with a 2-stage than a single.

If someone wants to use a 2-stage, I'm cool with that.

rob_s
07-07-11, 19:32
John Burns is a smart man, I do find it ironic that the second most poster on M4C is basically telling folks to stop dicking around on the silly internet and go shoot the gun:D

Says the guy who has no basis for anything outside of the internet. ;)

Strangely, perhaps more, ironic...

samuse
07-07-11, 20:40
I started out on the AR this year with a brand new 6920.

About 1,900 rounds, a few matches and a two day (1K round+) carbine class later and I like it just the way it is more and more.

I borrowed a sling for the carbine class and put some electric tape on my middle finger when the trigger guard rubbed a hole in my skin.

OldState
07-07-11, 21:11
I should add a caveat to my thoughts. I don't get upset when someone puts a 2-stage trigger in an AR (provided it is quality). The M16 is the first US military firearm to have a single stage trigger, and many people are far more comfortable with a 2-stage than a single.

If someone wants to use a 2-stage, I'm cool with that.

This is crazy talk! You need to keep shooting your gun until you no longer feel this way. From what I've read it may take 10000 rounds or so.;)

mike boufford
07-07-11, 21:46
The point is, go shoot BEFORE you do all that stupid shit. People are getting their cart before the horse. If you want to do stupid shit to your gun, fine, but GO SHOOT THE GUN first and identify what problems you think need addressing.

This is one of the few threads on the internet which I have read "cover to cover". Great thread and thanks. I've shot more clays, ducks, geese, and pheasant than I care to count up, and I've yet to add anything to any of my shotguns other than extended screw in chokes. Same goes for any rifle I've ever owned.

I used the chart to pick out my LMT. I had already purchased and shot a nice Colt CR6724 which was set up for varmint, and long range shooting, but knew nothing about carbines. One of my first posts on this site was to ask about changing the forestock on the LMT to something else. The advice I got was to go shoot it first. Definitely good advice, and I found that the need to change that forestock became an even greater desire, but only for one reason; I grip the forestock of this rifle, and any other for that matter, the same way that I have gripped shotguns for over 40 years, and that is with the forefinger pointed down the left side of the stock parallel with the barrel, and thumb either parallel with the forefinger, or over the top. The kicker here is that I extend that hand to a comfort point which puts the finger next to the FSG, and that becomes a bit hot for my tastes.

I personally don't care to add lights and vertical grips to this weapon, and if I can find a non-quad forestock which will extend over the FSG then I will be quite happy. As of yet, that product has not been found, and what I like so far is the Samson STAR-CX. I'm not real happy with the add in weight so if someone has a recommendation, I'm all ears. I would do a search here but that doesn't appear possible given my low post count. Yes I am a lurker.

jonconsiglio
07-07-11, 22:01
Hey Mike, you can search it, use the orange search button at the top. Sounds like a VTAC or the new Daniel Defense tubular hand guard would be good for you.

EDIT - Forgot you had the FSB.

Striker
07-07-11, 23:10
Well, I understand about doing research before you buy. There are some very well informed opinions out there that are worth listening to. I think research keeps us from buying crappy chinese rails or crappy american rails for that matter; however, at some point, internet or book research has to give way to practical research, i.e.; shoot the gun. What works for you, does not necessarily work for me. Your idea of a good trigger might or might not work for me. I won't know until I try it, though I appreciate the recommendation.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, Rob is saying to buy a good base gun and go shoot it before you put the latest, greatest toy whatever on it. It might work for you well as is, in which case you can use that money to do what we all prefer doing, which is shoot. Just my opinion.

Winnerkd
07-08-11, 04:21
My first gun was a Colt 6920 from my father. I still have it, and it's still in stock configuration. I wouldn't trade that gun for anything. What a wonderful piece.

mike boufford
07-08-11, 07:59
Hey Mike, you can search it, use the orange search button at the top. Sounds like a VTAC or the new Daniel Defense tubular hand guard would be good for you.

EDIT - Forgot you had the FSB.

The DD 9.5 FSP might be the ticket because it weighs 3 ounces less than the Samson and there is no modificaton of the FSB lugs required. The VTAC all seem to require a change in the gas block, and I'm pretty happy with the sights that came from the factory. I'm getting baseball sized groups of 10 shots freestanding fast as I can reaquire the target trigger pulls at 25 yards.

Thanks again for the help Jon. As always, your advice is much appreciated!!!!

EDIT: the search function worked this time, and that is the first time it has worked for me. I usually get a Windows error of some type which I've taken on other forums to mean that I hadn't gotten to the magic post count.

aaron_c
07-08-11, 10:20
I agree completely with the concept described in the original post. I had shot a rifle with a red dot before I got one and thought it was incredible and an absolute necessity. So I got one! My rifle also came with no forearm so I just went ahead and put a Troy rail on it. A flashlight, mount, and VFG followed. I ran an EBRv2 for a few months and took it off to make the rifle more simple, but found that I really used it a lot and put it back on. What I learned through actually owning these things is what I liked and didn't like, and some things I'm still undecided on. I also learned that weight is higher on my priority list than I thought it would be. Also, rifle parts hold resale value very well in my experience so I was able to fund almost my entire rebuild with just the money from selling the things I didn't keep.

My new setup that's being put together right now- DD Omega rail (saves about 4 ounces and free floats the rail among other things), LMT rear sight with irons only, Magpul MOE grip (I hate the A2 as well), Surefire G2X and VTAC mount saves several ounces over my previous light setup, Vltor EMOD to balance the weight with the middy gas system that has always felt a bit front heavy, and an EBRv2.

Cold
07-08-11, 17:06
Rob,

I agree to a certain point. I would say that this advice REALLY applies to "newbies" that have very little to no AR experience who get caught up in the customization black hole. Even more importantly when people need to think before they start adding buffers, springs, etc...without having fired a shot to know whether or not their weapon even functions.

I can't believe people actually have to be told to "go shoot the gun" to figure out what they need or don't need. I thought that was standard procedure. What the hell has happened?

JSantoro
07-08-11, 17:44
I can't remember of the top of my head who it was that authored the "Why does the gun culture attract so many retards?" thread from a while back, but it plays a huge role in answering the above question.

Only a vanishingly small portion of American society as a whole, and the gun community in particular, think that sweat-equity is fun and of greater value than the shallow, instant gratification that's so readily available.

mike boufford
07-08-11, 17:46
I can't believe people actually have to be told to "go shoot the gun" to figure out what they need or don't need. I thought that was standard procedure. What the hell has happened?

You mean like those same people who go out and buy a 4x4 pickup and then add all sorts of crap like lift kits, super offroad tires, and air shocks that they don't really need because they are never going to be in an offroad situation beyond a bumpy dirt road??????

aaron_c
07-08-11, 17:48
What happened is this: Our hobby is just like any other hobby. People buy Porsches that never touch the track, people put huge lifts and tires on trucks that never leave the pavement, people buy golf clubs that sit, nice and shiny, in a closet for their entire lifetime, the list is endless. People do the same thing with guns (disclaimer: I don't lump gun collectors into this category necessarily, as their hobby is primarily the collecting).

dookie1481
07-08-11, 18:09
I can't remember of the top of my head who it was that authored the "Why does the gun culture attract so many retards?" thread from a while back, but it plays a huge role in answering the above question.

Only a vanishingly small portion of American society as a whole, and the gun community in particular, think that sweat-equity is fun and of greater value than the shallow, instant gratification that's so readily available.

Sounds like a markm special.

BCmJUnKie
07-08-11, 18:13
[QUOTE=JSantoro;1042592]I can't remember of the top of my head who it was that authored the "Why does the gun culture attract so many retards?" thread from a while back, but it plays a huge role in answering the above question.QUOTE]

And lets not forget the amazing "Who left the idiot gate open"... I believe that was another Rob_s classic:lol:

bcowarriorspm
07-08-11, 20:59
I am guilty of putting gadgets I thought I needed on my first AR before I had fired one single round. My only AR/M4 platform experience comes from the military. My original thought was to make my AR similar to the M4's I had been issued, minus the laser device PEQ2's, etc. As a civilian I realized I have no need for any of that, my rifle is a hobby gun I just shoot it whenever I have time. I do not plan on grabbing my AR-15 if some intruder breaks in my house, that is what my cell phone is for. I guess that's another argument in itself.

Palmguy
07-08-11, 21:11
I am guilty of putting gadgets I thought I needed on my first AR before I had fired one single round. My only AR/M4 platform experience comes from the military. My original thought was to make my AR similar to the M4's I had been issued, minus the laser device PEQ2's, etc. As a civilian I realized I have no need for any of that, my rifle is a hobby gun I just shoot it whenever I have time. I do not plan on grabbing my AR-15 if some intruder breaks in my house, that is what my cell phone is for. I guess that's another argument in itself.

I suppose it is. I hope the cops in your neck of the woods can get to your house faster than your intruder can get from your front door to wherever in the house you are. Good luck with that.

wolf_walker
07-09-11, 02:00
I think I managed to bypass the add-on crap bit by having my first "grownup" gun being an SKS about 12 or 15 years back(read: poor married 19yo). Which I immediately picked up a chaote drag-queen stock for, bipod, etc, etc.
It took about six months till I'd sold all that crap and refinished the beat up ole 1958 stock and learned to appreciate what the weapon did well, pretty much like it came from the factory. I needed more work than it did. While I do have a few things on my AR, it's nothing that isn't out of the box on half of them anyway now. I just wish I had more time to shoot and refine things, and all my old shooting spots that I put thousands or rounds through that SKS and AK's and MN's and Mausers have trailer parks and crap on them now. :( I envy the crap out of the videos I see of you gents out west with wide open desolate places to shoot.

But yes, shoot the gun, drive the car, then fiddle with it.

Flare
07-09-11, 02:35
Did it ever occure to anyone that perhaps some of these people have experience on a rifle and decided to finally get one for themselves (miliatary, LEO) come to mind. So they have experience and know what has worked for them in the past.

Flare

ALCOAR
07-09-11, 02:47
........

rob_s
07-09-11, 07:05
What happened is this: Our hobby is just like any other hobby. People buy Porsches that never touch the track, people put huge lifts and tires on trucks that never leave the pavement, people buy golf clubs that sit, nice and shiny, in a closet for their entire lifetime, the list is endless. People do the same thing with guns (disclaimer: I don't lump gun collectors into this category necessarily, as their hobby is primarily the collecting).

If the goal is to buy an AR to have a man-barbie then that is their right. But if that is the case, there really isn't any reason to ask others for their opinion as it is all based on aesthetic and beauty (or lack thereof) is in the eye of the beholder. Assemble it however you want and post glamor shots/videos of yourself at the range looking for ways to validate your purchases.

If you go back and read the first post in this thread from over two years ago, you will see that this is not what I'm talking about . What I'm suggesting is that if people get out and use a stock, largely unmolested, basic carbine and get out and shoot it, they might be surprised at how much they can do with it given a little training and practice. At the very least they will have a better idea what they want to actually do with the thing, and how to address any shortcomings based on same.

Striker
07-09-11, 12:26
Did it ever occure to anyone that perhaps some of these people have experience on a rifle and decided to finally get one for themselves (miliatary, LEO) come to mind. So they have experience and know what has worked for them in the past.

Flare

Sure, but this thread is not addressing people with experience. People with experience tend to reverse engineer weapon set ups. By this I mean, they look at the use for the weapon and set it up accordingly. They don't ask for advice because, through their own experience, they know what they need already.

Conversely, there are people that do all of their research on the net. How do you know what works for you if you haven't even shot the gun? Because what works for me does not necessarily work for you. My use might be different than yours and we're definitely not the same person. Internet/book research is fine, but at some point it has to give way to practical research, I.E.; shoot the gun. Why change a part if you might like what is already there and might like it better. That's more what I'm getting from this thread.

Work2shoot
07-10-11, 17:42
I was guilty of buying before shooting. I wish I'd gone ahead and shot the thing as it is so much fun!

Hammertime
07-10-11, 22:00
If the goal is to buy an AR to have a man-barbie then that is their right... Assemble it however you want and post glamor shots/videos of yourself at the range looking for ways to validate your purchases.


...this is what a ton of people on here seem to be doing. That, and also the standard one up the other guy, "who has the most money pizzing match". Heck with all that and let's all get together and go shooting - that's where the real fun is. The camaraderie. Learning the basic skills and improving yourself. Shooting with other enthusiasts, whether they be friends or family. That's what I like best.

The firearms are fun as well. They are tools and are to be respected at all times. Building something with your own hands is important and fulfilling in itself. Start simple and then dress them up how you like. Have fun.

Hammertime

JohnnyC
07-10-11, 22:31
This is crazy talk! You need to keep shooting your gun until you no longer feel this way. From what I've read it may take 10000 rounds or so.;)

I failed to mention, somebody going out and deciding they need a super whiz bang trigger without actually shooting their gun is bad.

Someone who has experience and has put rounds downrange with the AR platform, M1/A, M14, etc. that is more comfortable with a 2-stage, is perfectly fine. Simply getting one because it's cool to do is as bad as anything else.

I grew up shooting hunting rifles and an M1 Garand with a 2-stage trigger. I shoot my AR's better with a 2-stage. Call it a weakness if you will, but without countless hours of training, I will always shoot a 2-stage better.

brzusa.1911
07-10-11, 22:38
While I do carry guns for self-defense, have an AR15 as my preferred HD gun, shoot my guns quite often, I do see them as a hobby as well. I really cannot see anything wrong if someone wants to spend their money with all the latest and greatest buzz word accessories and never shoot the gun. If someone wants to know opinions on what others think is best trigger, best rails, best optics...that is great, if they buy all this stuff and shoot or if they don't shoot and take lots of pictures of their build that is also great...

4x4twenty6
07-10-11, 23:33
Spend the money on rounds and learning how to use your weapon before you deck it out with a bunch of accessories. Nothing worse than seeing some one at the range w/ Eotech in front of an aimpoint 3x with a tac light and vertical fore grip that can't shoot inside a silhoutte from 25 yards. Sad Sad.

dookie1481
07-11-11, 00:28
...this is what a ton of people on here seem to be doing. That, and also the standard one up the other guy, "who has the most money pizzing match".
Hammertime

There may be SOME people that do that, but A. that is NOT the core of this forum, nor what it represents, and B. that isn't the point of this thread.

RetreatHell
07-11-11, 04:06
There may be SOME people that do that, but A. that is NOT the core of this forum, nor what it represents, and B. that isn't the point of this thread.

No shit, well said. I've got some pretty expensive shit myself, and I could give a shit about any sort of "pissing match."

OldState
07-11-11, 08:33
I failed to mention, somebody going out and deciding they need a super whiz bang trigger without actually shooting their gun is bad.

Someone who has experience and has put rounds downrange with the AR platform, M1/A, M14, etc. that is more comfortable with a 2-stage, is perfectly fine. Simply getting one because it's cool to do is as bad as anything else.

I grew up shooting hunting rifles and an M1 Garand with a 2-stage trigger. I shoot my AR's better with a 2-stage. Call it a weakness if you will, but without countless hours of training, I will always shoot a 2-stage better.

100% agree (I was being sarcastic if it wasn't obvious). However, this is a concept that some will simply not accept.

I think "new to AR's" is often read as "new to firearms" when advice is asked; even after the person has qualified their experience.

Wiggity
07-11-11, 12:42
I agree OP, people should definitely go shoot their gun.

Hammertime
07-11-11, 17:28
No shit, well said. I've got some pretty expensive shit myself, and I could give a shit about any sort of "pissing match."

Obviously, I am not pointing fingers at anyone in particular here - the crux of my post is that it would be great to see people, especially people who are just starting out, not get so caught up in all of the gadgets and realize that training is necessary. I was basically agreeing with Rob's previous post.

Another point I made is that I enjoy the camaraderie of training with others. That's all.

Good shooting,
Bryant

RetreatHell
07-11-11, 19:54
Obviously, I am not pointing fingers at anyone in particular here - the crux of my post is that it would be great to see people, especially people who are just starting out, not get so caught up in all of the gadgets and realize that training is necessary. I was basically agreeing with Rob's previous post.

Another point I made is that I enjoy the camaraderie of training with others. That's all.

Good shooting,
Bryant

Roger that, man. I got ya. :)

Btw I just realized I used the word "shit" 3 times in just 2 short sentences, lol:lol:

Altair
07-13-11, 11:33
I am guilty of putting gadgets I thought I needed on my first AR before I had fired one single round. My only AR/M4 platform experience comes from the military. My original thought was to make my AR similar to the M4's I had been issued, minus the laser device PEQ2's, etc. As a civilian I realized I have no need for any of that, my rifle is a hobby gun I just shoot it whenever I have time. I do not plan on grabbing my AR-15 if some intruder breaks in my house, that is what my cell phone is for. I guess that's another argument in itself.

Take it from a cop, this is flawed logic. If you have a weapon and know how to use it, be prepared to do so to defend yourself. It is far more common for us to get to the scene and clean up the mess than it is to get there while the crime is in progress and stop it before someone gets hurt. I wish that weren't true. It is extremely gratifying to stop a crime in progress and it is the most rewarding and fun thing I get to do, but it is a very small percentage. There simply aren't enough of us and we don't get advance warning so we can be there within the very small window of time that allows us to actually stop the crime.

As for the point of this thread, I'm with Rob. Years ago I made the mistake of purchasing alot of gizmos when getting into AR's. I've since learned what works for me and have made adjustments to fit my actual needs.

I'm now an AR armorer as well as a rifle instructor. I have alot of trigger time and alot of time building and working on these rifles. Many of my partners seek advice from me on purchasing a rifle and are usually surprised when I don't recommend the accessories that I use.

I know what I like but every shooter is different. There are some things I recommend (like keeping the gun light, short, and reliable) but I don't tell people which optic or sight or rail or stock to use (though I sometimes tell them what not to use due to poor quality). Instead, I bring them out to my place and let them shoot several guns with different accessories (things I've accumulated over the years trying to learn what I liked and spending too much money in the process). I keep these things in hopes of saving my partners some money when they are trying to decide where to begin. For the most part they end up with a basic 16" carbine and learn that it is sufficient for our uses.

ScarceChalice9
03-17-12, 22:49
The original comments I feel are spot on.

I'm new to ARs but not new to shooting. The amount of accessories is bewildering, and it's easy to believe that you MUST buy the lastest Tacticool kit because X or Y has one.

I almost made the mistake, like bringing my personal preferences from handguns to rifles. Thankfully I remembered that I have no experience with ARs, and that to know what I like I need to SHOOT IT MORE!

I've tried a couple of friends rifles now, some bits I liked some I don't. What I do know is that I need more range time before splashing out on kit. When it comes to that time, I'm sure I'll get the most practical advice here. (OK, a RDS is on order.)

Great post.

KrampusArms
03-17-12, 23:35
This thread is very true. I'll contribute my 2 cents. While I did a good amount of shooting prior to 'upgrading' my rifle, I got this insatiable itch & recently bought a rail system. I loved the idea of having versatility & options. And I'll admit, although ashamed to, that 'aggressive' look. And with a bit of research, and weighing price/quality/weight, I bought a railed handguard. At first I thought wow this is awesome, the cats meow right? Well, after about a day or two of handling my gun here & there, slinging, shouldering.... I ended up hating it. It was clunky, the rails were uncomfortable to hold, my rifle felt unwieldy, it totally changed the whole dynamic. It just wasn't for me, & I ended up wasting money I should have spent on ammunition. I'm still kicking myself.....

Now I have the stock guards on, with a new appreciation.

Wolvee
03-18-12, 00:22
While I completely agree with the OP to just go shoot the gun, I think the average gun owner looks at their guns more than they practice & train.

Since forums are open to anyone chances are you're going to get a lot of these types. (They are just as welcome in my book.)

While I'm not an Operator, I have a fair understanding of what I want but when I read forums like I do sometimes, I take in more knowledge than I can process. Before you know it my mind has built the ultimate car for Homer Simpsons long lost brother. :)

I agree that, a rule of thumb should be to shoot first if you're an avid shooter. If you're an average joe who just has money to spend on what you think you want, Have a field day.

rob_s
03-18-12, 03:16
While I completely agree with the OP to just go shoot the gun, I think the average gun owner looks at their guns more than they practice & train.

Except that few of these people, who view guns no differently than painted plates or coins as a thing to be collected and not used, admit that this is their attitude. You see them post about how they "need" an AR for this or that so they did "research" online so that they could "build" their first AR and get "exactly what I need". Horseshit. All of it.

If these people would just say "I want a really cool looking AR so I looked through all the picture threads and picked out the coolest looking parts and bolted them all together" the entire forum would run a lot smoother.

If, however, you are instead the 1% and are a goal-oriented shooter or AR buyer/owner, you are much better off going out and shooting, and learning to shoot, the most basic configuration first. Not out of some nostalgic "you must *master* the iron sights first" mentality but because you just don't know what you don't know and you'll be better off and save money that way in the long run.

I'm in a Practical Rifle class this weekend and it's a classic example. I could have gone nuts outfitting the gun, and myself, but I didn't know what I didn't know and I'm glad I didn't waste the money. I know now what I want for shooting a gun like this but several of the items I would have bought in ignorance would have been totally wasted money.

duece71
03-18-12, 06:10
Except that few of these people, who view guns no differently than painted plates or coins as a thing to be collected and not used, admit that this is their attitude. You see them post about how they "need" an AR for this or that so they did "research" online so that they could "build" their first AR and get "exactly what I need". Horseshit. All of it.

If these people would just say "I want a really cool looking AR so I looked through all the picture threads and picked out the coolest looking parts and bolted them all together" the entire forum would run a lot smoother.

If, however, you are instead the 1% and are a goal-oriented shooter or AR buyer/owner, you are much better off going out and shooting, and learning to shoot, the most basic configuration first. Not out of some nostalgic "you must *master* the iron sights first" mentality but because you just don't know what you don't know and you'll be better off and save money that way in the long run.

I'm in a Practical Rifle class this weekend and it's a classic example. I could have gone nuts outfitting the gun, and myself, but I didn't know what I didn't know and I'm glad I didn't waste the money. I know now what I want for shooting a gun like this but several of the items I would have bought in ignorance would have been totally wasted money.

Agreed. I have a friend going through the AR selection process right now. I have asked the important questions, what are the goals etc.. He has a child showing up in less than a month so I doubt he is going to have much time to shoot. He is a collector, but with this AR, I feel he is looking at more of as a user. He had 1 AR in the past, a Smith. Sold it because he didn't know what he was doing and he wanted to go in another direction. Well, it seems that it has come full circle. I have told him about this website and said to just read. Hopefully, he can make a better educated purchase (not that Smith is bad for a 1st purchase). Rob, your website is awesome, very good info there, thank you for having it.

rob_s
03-18-12, 06:17
Rob, your website is awesome, very good info there, thank you for having it.

Thank you. While I understand my delivery can be caustic for some I prefer to think of it as "tough love".:D

I really want to get people to make that switch from the 99% of "collector" or even the pointless shooter to being a 1% goal-oriented shooter. Once you make that change it is like night and day and there is no going back.

so for me, "go shoot the gun" has become not only about saving money for the guy getting started but also encouraging guys to get out and shoot! I see so many posts about "I want to take a class but I don't have a chest rig yet" or "I want to shoot matches but I don't have an optic yet". The hell with that! Stop with the "if onlys" and get out on the range. Go watch the first time if you're not comfortable but introduce yourself while you're there, ask about what they're doing and what you actually NEED to get started, and then GO SHOOT THE GUN!

Todd00000
03-18-12, 08:46
Thank you. While I understand my delivery can be caustic for some I prefer to think of it as "tough love".:D

I really want to get people to make that switch from the 99% of "collector" or even the pointless shooter to being a 1% goal-oriented shooter. Once you make that change it is like night and day and there is no going back.

so for me, "go shoot the gun" has become not only about saving money for the guy getting started but also encouraging guys to get out and shoot! I see so many posts about "I want to take a class but I don't have a chest rig yet" or "I want to shoot matches but I don't have an optic yet". The hell with that! Stop with the "if onlys" and get out on the range. Go watch the first time if you're not comfortable but introduce yourself while you're there, ask about what they're doing and what you actually NEED to get started, and then GO SHOOT THE GUN!

Also don't forget to tell the new shooter what you and others have said, whether this is your hobby, hunting, business, job, self defense, and for political reasons it's good to go shoot because it supports all of it.

dw_player
03-18-12, 09:37
Great thread. I purchased a used BCM middy upper on a RRA lower that was pretty basic really. Had Magpul MOE furniture (grip, stock, HG). DD rear sight. That's it.
The first thing I did was buy 200 rounds and sign up for a class. New to ARs but lots of range time on pistols.
I wanted to get the basics first like stance, sight picture, trigger control, etc.
Got that in the first class. I then signed up for the next class in the progression.
I know I'm not going to just shoot irons (but wanted to start there) so I ordered an EOTech (looked at a few RDS and this one I can track the best) and a Vickers sling. I needed the sling for the next class and wanted to start training on the optic of choice ASAP. Bought 2 pmags and am awaiting the next round of training.
That's it. All told I'm in the rifle for about $1100 so far (not counting the ammo and class).
The best money I'll spend as far as I can tell is the training.

Wolvee
03-18-12, 10:49
Except that few of these people, who view guns no differently than painted plates or coins as a thing to be collected and not used, admit that this is their attitude. You see them post about how they "need" an AR for this or that so they did "research" online so that they could "build" their first AR and get "exactly what I need". Horseshit. All of it.

If these people would just say "I want a really cool looking AR so I looked through all the picture threads and picked out the coolest looking parts and bolted them all together" the entire forum would run a lot smoother.

If, however, you are instead the 1% and are a goal-oriented shooter or AR buyer/owner, you are much better off going out and shooting, and learning to shoot, the most basic configuration first. Not out of some nostalgic "you must *master* the iron sights first" mentality but because you just don't know what you don't know and you'll be better off and save money that way in the long run.

I'm in a Practical Rifle class this weekend and it's a classic example. I could have gone nuts outfitting the gun, and myself, but I didn't know what I didn't know and I'm glad I didn't waste the money. I know now what I want for shooting a gun like this but several of the items I would have bought in ignorance would have been totally wasted money.

I agree with you except on one point, I don't really have faith that everything would go smoother. If someone words a question or a thread that is not inline with some they can get tarred & feathered. I think the arm chair elitists, some of the non-professional SME's would use the opportunity to feed like sharks. Maybe this forum is different that all the others I'm on, IDK. I'm fairly new on here so I could be off base.

One things for certain, if everyone was honest things would be a heck of a lot better off for everyone. I say honest because of the newbs just wanting "cool" (Which is OK by me so long as they know to respect the weapon.) and the sharks realizing that their more of an internet bully than an SME helping out the young AR guy.

JW1069
03-18-12, 11:35
I agree with you except on one point, I don't really have faith that everything would go smoother. If someone words a question or a thread that is not inline with some they can get tarred & feathered. I think the arm chair elitists, some of the non-professional SME's would use the opportunity to feed like sharks. Maybe this forum is different that all the others I'm on, IDK. I'm fairly new on here so I could be off base.

One things for certain, if everyone was honest things would be a heck of a lot better off for everyone. I say honest because of the newbs just wanting "cool" (Which is OK by me so long as they know to respect the weapon.) and the sharks realizing that their more of an internet bully than an SME helping out the young AR guy.

The mods here do a solid job keeping threads on point. When you see the "shark feeding", it's generally in response to someone espousing a point based on no qualified information whatsoever. For example, recommending a hobby gun to someone in LE deciding on a duty rifle when all that poster has done is "held" the hobby gun. :haha:

Rob's advice to go "SHOOT THE GUN" is as good as it gets. If a new guy needs a starting point, then there are a metric ton of threads on the topic of "which first AR to buy?". Furniture and color schemes do little to improve a shooter's skill set, but still seem to comprise the majority of n00b questions/concerns. Any new shooter would be much better served buying a quality factory rifle in a basic configuration, buying a bunch of mags and ammo then taking a training class. It's amazing what you learn about yourself and the rifle once you start shooting it.

Wolvee
03-18-12, 11:50
I agree completely. :)

AR's are like Race cars. You need to learn how to take the turns in a stock car before adding Horsepower.

rob_s
04-19-12, 18:34
this seems needing bumped again.

SteadyUp
04-19-12, 18:52
this seems needing bumped again.

It's probably going to need bumped a few more times in the upcoming months too.

I think you nailed it a few posts up, in stating the getting people from the "collector" or "dirt shooter" into the "goal oriented shooter" mindset is a big step. It seems to me that some of the new members as of late are of the collector mindset, but they don't even realize it until people here start asking questions (like "why are you asking if you should change your buffer when you haven't even shot the gun yet?" type questions).

Some of these folks take such questions as a personal attack, and behave like little children (and are promptly dealt with by the mods, which is appreciated), and some people actually see the error in their way of thinking, and change their plan (or actually develop a plan for their AR/pistol ownership).

"Go shoot the gun" holds more water than people give it credit, at least for me.

MiamiCracker
04-19-12, 19:36
I am glad I read this thread now. I just recently bought me a S&W M&P15 , since its the OR model I had to invest in some iron sights of the bat. Other than that I invested money in Pmags, sling, cleaning kit, carry case, and stocking up on ammo. Hopefully I will get to shot it for the first time next week. I just wanted to get the basic equipment and shoot it first before I dive into a RDS.

FChen17213
04-19-12, 19:51
Sometimes after you go and shoot the gun, you will find a gadget or new device that might seem like it would enhance your performance or shooting. Sometimes it will but others it won't. Everyone is different. AR accessories are a lot like holsters. Many of us have a pile that we tried and didn't like or didn't work out even though it seemed like a good idea at one time.

Thus, I will say that even after you "shoot the gun," you may still find yourself putting stuff on and taking stuff off or moving stuff around to see how you can improve your setup. It is a never-ending process playing around with gun and kit, always seeing if X or Y may be more efficient, comfortable, etc.

rob_s
04-19-12, 19:53
I am glad I read this thread now. I just recently bought me a S&W M&P15 , since its the OR model I had to invest in some iron sights of the bat. Other than that I invested money in Pmags, sling, cleaning kit, carry case, and stocking up on ammo. Hopefully I will get to shot it for the first time next week. I just wanted to get the basic equipment and shoot it first before I dive into a RDS.

and I, for one, applaud you for this. The OR might not be my first choice, but it's the gun you have and it beats the crap out of the half-pile of parts on some other guy's bench waiting for him to figure out the balance of his parts based on what's the coolest thing on the internet this week. In one range session with your OR you'l be further ahead than that guy will be in months.

duece71
04-19-12, 20:19
Sometimes after you go and shoot the gun, you will find a gadget or new device that might seem like it would enhance your performance or shooting. Sometimes it will but others it won't. Everyone is different. AR accessories are a lot like holsters. Many of us have a pile that we tried and didn't like or didn't work out even though it seemed like a good idea at one time.

Thus, I will say that even after you "shoot the gun," you may still find yourself putting stuff on and taking stuff off or moving stuff around to see how you can improve your setup. It is a never-ending process playing around with gun and kit, always seeing if X or Y may be more efficient, comfortable, etc.

Boy, I hope not. That sounds tedious and very expensive. I hope folks are doing like Rob_s says and shoot first and then only change one or 2 things. If there is someone out there changing out stuff every single week/month/year.....then that person needs to put the rifle away and take up a new interest, or get some therapy. It becomes less about shooting and more about "dressing" the rifle up for the range/class/SHTF/SD which is stupid. If its about changing out a grip that causes blisters, then ok. But if its about changing something out due to the need for more rail space ( :confused: ) or the shade of foliage green isn't quite right......I will leave it up to the experts and their money.

FChen17213
04-19-12, 20:49
It does get very expensive. But I doubt many of us have our rifles still set up exactly the way it was 4 years ago. If you want to stick to your Surefire M900 with built in vfg and ARMs mount from the early 2000s, be my guest. If you want to grip the magwell, and run your CAR stock collapsed, that is your choice. It is better to be a guy who shoots in a less efficient way than one who does not shoot at all.

Some of us have gotten Troy Alpha rails, EOtech EXPS's, T-1s etc. I dont think trying out new gear precludes us to shooting but you may disagree, but hey, if you want to stick to the past, that is your choice. Do whatever works for you.

samuse
04-19-12, 21:46
I shot a bone stock LE6920 for awhile (couple of good classes and a bunch of matches). Until I decided that it sucked and I went with a T-1 in a lower 1/3 mount, DD fixed irons, an X300 @12:00, Vickers sling, Magpul MOE grip, LMT SOPMOD stock, BCM mod4 c/h, DD RIS II rail, barrel cut to 14.7" w/ pinned A2, a Geissele SSA, VLTOR A5 kit and some krylon.

And I still think my shit is all "simple"!:lol:

This baby is a JOY to shoot now!
http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab76/sammuse/ARs/001-1.jpg

ennbeegunny15
04-28-12, 16:29
the first thing i did after i got my 1st ar was buy ammo, then a reloading press and learned how to reload. best investment ever. after, i took a couple of classes. idk, a tricked out rifle won't help if you don't have ammo and don't know how to manipulate it to the best of your abilities. maybe that's just me, ymmv.

halo2304
04-28-12, 21:46
I actually told a guy to "go shoot the gun" today. He had a new S&W M&P15 sport model with a YHM drop-in quad rail and was adding a VFG and a cheap red dot. He's only going to use it for coyotes and will eventually add a light as funds allow. He hadn't even shot the thing as he doesn't have a range to go to. I felt a bit sorry for him and if I had time I would've invited him to the range I belong to so he could finally shoot the damn thing. :rolleyes:

BTW, while the Smith may not be a Colt or BCM, at least he didn't by the DPMS that, not a week earlier, had an issue where the receiver extension/buffer stop pin had some how come loose and prevented the bolt carrier from closing all the way.

dhgeyer
04-29-12, 08:53
There are a lot of posts in this thread, and I haven't read them all, so apologies in advance if I am repeating what someone else said.

If you are new to the AR, as I am, it seems to me that, having bought a stock, high quality rifle to begin with, one really good accessory to spend hundreds of dollars on would be lots of AMMUNITION so that you can SHOOT THE GUN A WHOLE LOT and HAVE A LOT OF FUN and GET GOOD AT IT. ;)

hmbeal
04-29-12, 15:58
I just wanted to add that part of the reason I was drawn to the AR platform was the amount of accessories available for it. While I understand the concept of "just shoot the gun" it is also important to understand that some people feel customizing their rifle is as much of a learning experience as it is fun. This may not be the case with everyone but in my limited experience it seems to be true.

ryr8828
04-29-12, 16:38
I really want to GO SHOOT THE GUN, but the 4640 died on Dad right behind my 140 yd. target and I don't feel like working on a tractor today.
So for the rest of the day I'll either work in the yard or read and post about guns.

rob_s
04-29-12, 21:03
I just wanted to add that part of the reason I was drawn to the AR platform was the amount of accessories available for it. While I understand the concept of "just shoot the gun" it is also important to understand that some people feel customizing their rifle is as much of a learning experience as it is fun. This may not be the case with everyone but in my limited experience it seems to be true.

If man-barbies or legos are what people are looking for, this thread probably doesn't apply to them.

Bear1
04-22-13, 14:45
Thank you for this post. I understand what you are saying, but being new to the platform my follow up question is:

How do I know works better for me if I've never had the opportunity to use it?

For example, you understood the A2 grip wasn't for you by the feel of it. But since I'm new to the platform, how will I know if there is something out there that is better for me if I don't have the opportunity to use it?

Any suggestions here?

markm
04-22-13, 14:47
Any suggestions here?

Quit bumping ancient threads and go shoot the gun?? :confused:

Wake27
04-22-13, 14:52
Quit bumping ancient threads and go shoot the gun?? :confused:

Yeah that was kinda the point of this thread in the first place. Shoot it, so you can decide if you like what you have. Then figure out what you want based on that... I think you're over-complicating it.

Bear1
04-22-13, 14:54
Just trying to use the threads to ask my questions rather than creating duplicative threads.

My point here is how do you know that you like pepperoni on your pizza if you've never had a chance to try pepperoni?

How will I know if a rail - and which rail at that - will suit my best at the end of the day if I can't go ahead and strap them to my rifle and send a few down range?

Wake27
04-22-13, 15:00
Just trying to use the threads to ask my questions rather than creating duplicative threads.

My point here is how do you know that you like pepperoni on your pizza if you've never had a chance to try pepperoni?

How will I know if a rail - and which rail at that - will suit my best at the end of the day if I can't go ahead and strap them to my rifle and send a few down range?

You won't know anything for sure if you don't get hands on it. But before throwing the newest thing out there on, go shoot whatever you have first. If you don't have anything, then I try to find the most preferred by the largest number of people. For example, I knew I hated the A2 grip on my issue M4 (no big surprise). The MOE grip was super popular so I tried that for a while before deciding the logic behind the BCM grip made sense, so I ditched the MOE for the BCM and couldn't be happier. Small upgrade, but makes a huge difference in comfort IMO. The point of this thread was don't ditch something you already have if you haven't even tried it...

officerX
04-22-13, 15:01
Quit bumping ancient threads and go shoot the gun?? :confused:

Some of you people need to take a chill pill! Can't people ask questions around here? SHIT!

markm
04-22-13, 15:04
Some of you people need to take a chill pill! Can't people ask questions around here? SHIT!

Really?.... "how do I know if the A2 grip works for me?"

GO SHOOT THE ****ING GUN, NUMB NUTS! If it's a problem for his dish soap hands, let us know and we'll recommend a different grip.

DUH!

Bear1
04-22-13, 15:08
You won't know anything for sure if you don't get hands on it. But before throwing the newest thing out there on, go shoot whatever you have first. If you don't have anything, then I try to find the most preferred by the largest number of people. For example, I knew I hated the A2 grip on my issue M4 (no big surprise). The MOE grip was super popular so I tried that for a while before deciding the logic behind the BCM grip made sense, so I ditched the MOE for the BCM and couldn't be happier. Small upgrade, but makes a huge difference in comfort IMO. The point of this thread was don't ditch something you already have if you haven't even tried it...

This helps me ... thank you.


If it's a problem for his dish soap hands, let us know and we'll recommend a different grip.

Haha this made me laugh

markm
04-22-13, 15:10
Haha this made me laugh

I'm all for asking questions and am of the mind that too much legit exchange gets locked down, but good grief. You learn what you don't like by getting time on the gun.

Ryno12
04-22-13, 15:23
I'm all for asking questions and am of the mind that too much legit exchange gets locked down...

Have you expressed that to your buddy? Sometimes I think he & Klink have a contest going on. :D

Sent from my Motorola DynaTAC 8000X using Tapatalk 2

GunnutAF
04-22-13, 15:34
I agree whole heartedly Rob S. Unless your an Operator or ubber 3 gunner get it shoot it and be happy. When your comfortable with the platform then get your wish list together on the extras to add to it to make it your rifle to suit your situation an use. I'm a simple man with simple needs/uses for my AR's and they are outfitted accordingly!:D

halo2304
04-22-13, 20:42
It's funny how people fail to notice that Rob is no longer on this board.

The whole point of this thread was to suggest that instead of buying a gun and a shit ton of accessories that may or may not work for you, go shoot the gun as-is THEN find out what needs to be changed.

As for figuring out what accessories will work best for you: research, research, research! Once you've narrowed your options to one or a few choices try to find a place to get hands on with the item. Look at maybe purchasing the cheapest choice for the specific upgrade. That's what is nice about a lot of Magpul's products. They're relatively inexpensive so if it doesn't work for you, you're only out $20-$30.

mohunter55
04-23-13, 10:54
i dont get it, what harm does it do if a newb wants to immediately start upgrading their gun. When I bought my first ar the only reason i didnt immediately upgrade it was because i had just dropped 1200 and was just out of college. If i had the money, i would have for sure bought the latest rail for it and probably changed out the grip and stock

Littlelebowski
04-23-13, 10:56
i dont get it, what harm does it do if a newb wants to immediately start upgrading their gun. When I bought my first ar the only reason i didnt immediately upgrade it was because i had just dropped 1200 and was just out of college. If i had the money, i would have for sure bought the latest rail for it and probably changed out the grip and stock

Re-read the thread.

MistWolf
04-23-13, 13:22
...If i had the money, i would have for sure bought the latest rail for it and probably changed out the grip and stock

...and wasted all that money on rail estate you'll never use and likely get stuck with a grip and stock that didn't fit you right without knowing why

Littlelebowski
04-23-13, 13:47
I would imagine your average ar15 owner is buying based on looks alone. Odds are they will never know the difference. They will never shoot enough to realize there is a difference. I see no harm in that

Take a step back and read more on this forum and then ask yourself if you're in the right place.

sadmin
04-23-13, 13:56
My brother is a shining example of what the buzzword AR has done to the market. He and his buddy cut pictures out of magazines and gave me 2K each and said build this (buy these parts.) Rifles were completed and given back and neither of the rifles have been fired since I function tested them. That was in October of last year. Many people never intend on using it...its an American status symbol now, like a Cadillac truck with a bed cover.

Split66
04-23-13, 14:33
My brother is a shining example of what the buzzword AR has done to the market. He and his buddy cut pictures out of magazines and gave me 2K each and said build this (buy these parts.) Rifles were completed and given back and neither of the rifles have been fired since I function tested them. That was in October of last year. Many people never intend on using it...its an American status symbol now, like a Cadillac truck with a bed cover.


I find that disturbing. Sounds like you need to liberate those guns!

On that note though, my buddy won't take his DD out in the rain, I just make fun of him. This is a ****ing battled hardened weapon you tool.......jesus.......

:lol:

Littlelebowski
04-23-13, 15:12
The post above points out a great example of what I was referring to. I don't see why stating that means I'm in the wrong place?

This is a technical and training oriented forum. If you want to get tips on how to shoot your gun better or even have actually identified problems with your weapon, we can help. If you don't want to actually shoot your weapon and become better at that as a martial skill and would rather dress it up and barely shoot it, this may not be the forum for you.