View Full Version : Magazine Well Hold
Shooting from a mag well hold feels like writing with a pencil by holding the eraser. Every movement is a very course adjustment.
The mag well hold does work good if you were to be standing around pointing your rifle at something for a long time.
When I started shooting a bunch of 3 gun and combat rifle many years ago I did a bunch of unconventional (at the time) because I had no military experience. I used my magazine as a mono pod, I pulled my strong leg up shooting prone to raise my chest to breath easier, and when the VFG's first came out for the AR's, I ran it very far forward to better "drive" the gun. Great, won lots of matches, shot really well, etc.....
Fast forward a few years to when I could actually carry a Colt SMG/Ar-15 at work, and none had VFG's. I used the Mag well hold to pull the gun back to my shoulder like a VFG. It ran well using Harries with a flashlight (prior to actualy having lights mounted on the gun), and it was very fluid to manuver the gun around small indoor enviroments. I also found it much more relaxing and comfortable to carry and hold the gun in a low ready for hours on end during searches and static positions. So I essentially found that I liked the magwell stuff for running the gun in MY operational environment. With a dedicated VFG, I like somewhere close to the middle, or maybe slightly to the rear with a carbine length rail. I usually don't run a VFG on rifle length stuff, as I shoot those length guns for different purposes. I also found that my favorite gun for urban work is the Steryr AUG, which has a very compressed grip range.
Again, my environment is very different than what Larry's was. I do far more "prisoner taking" than shooting. Its like an ISO based system versus Weaver based. I think ISO is a better pure shooting technique, and I prefer Weaver based for actually moving around and searching. WHich do I do more of? I have done tens of thousands of high risk searches, been in hundreds of major physical fights while conducting this types of operations, and only had to shoot two people. The ability to move with the gun is more important to me than the pure shooting aspect. Others have a different out look. Not wrong-different.
P.S. I have shoot countless thousands of rounds with a magwell hold and never hit the bolt catch. I have found it fast on the reload to insert the mag, and hit the bolt release while reacquiring the magwell almost simultanously. YMMV.
Wow. This makes two things in two days, that I have been doing forever, have been ribbed/chided/berated for, and now its being acknowledge as maybe not so crazy after all. I'm on a roll. Maybe I should go play the lottery. :D
nyeti,
Thanks. Your perspective is always enlightening.
I think nyeti (being the warrior that he is) summed up most of the advantages of both holds well. Having trained with both Pat, Larrry, and many others, as well as lots of USMC 'stick' time I have found that there are several ways to run the gun and they often are determined by METT-T (Mission, Enemy, Troops, Terrain - Time etc. - or as we often say the "non-answer" in other words not "the" way, but "a" way). Holding forward on the forend allows one to "drive" the gun faster from threat to threat in some environs. However, I have taught thousands of Marines to hold the magwell inorder to better control the gun for longer periods of time and to control the recoil better when shooting non-standard responses (i.e. more than three rounds). In training all of those Marines, we have never had a right handed shooter induce a bolt lock with their support thumb. The only problem that occurs early in the training is with "wrong" handed (south paws) shooters blocking the ejection port with their support hand. But once they learn where best to place their support hand the issue is resolved.
Like nyeti stated, the magwell hold also works for utilizing a Rogers like technique with a handheld Surefire flashlight pressing against the front of the lower receiver. This is ideal for issue rifles where mounting a light may piss off the unit SgtsMaj or Armorers.
Another reason for either moving the VFG closer to the magwell or using a magwell hold is weapons retention. Marine Corps Martial Arts Program currently teach rudimentary rifle retention techiques at the lower belt levels. However, highly recommend that every warrior take an Operational Skill Group weapons retention and disarm class. Once you learn how easy it is to disarm some one with a handgun or a longgun you also realize where you place your hands for retention is a factor that must be considered when running a gun in a CQB environ. Simply put, for a long gun the further your hands are separated the easier it is to be disarmed.
Finally, to comment on monopoding a Stoner system. If your M16/M4/AR fails to feed because you monopod or applied "pressure" on your magazine it is because you have a bad mag (discard it) not because of the technique. This myth was born from to many NRA Bullseye/Camp Perry shooters. Not a slam on them, but their focus is shooting not fighting with a firearm. While the fundamentals of shooting certainly apply, some of the techniques used for a match definitely don't.
Shooting competition is not a bad thing be it Bullesye or 3 Gun, but a mature warrior needs to know the difference and separate the wheat from the chaff. Also, a mature warrior who competes doesn't worry about winning a match using competition techniques, but improving their warrior skills by applying proper fighting techniques during the course fire. While I have won a few matches that has never been my purpose (although I can't lie and tell you that ego and competitive spirit does push me to want to cheat myself), my goal is more often than not to complete the course of fire as effectively as I can using proper fighting techniques. Efficiency in a competition often wins the match. While efficiency in combat is sometimes good, effectiveness in combat is the metric that is used to measure success.
So be careful when preaching about "the" way, as more often than not it is merely "a" way.
S/F
P.S. I have to state that I did gleam that last piece of wisdom from Pat Rogers during my continued maturing process as a warrior.
They dont look like there holding the forearm any further foward then you would with a vfg on the gun?
and then again the recoil must be terrible with those comps and heavy match barrels(joking kind of) i know game gear its great for games thats cool.
there are several voices of thought on vfg etc.......... as many have said find your way and become good at it
I rest my mag when prone -- if I can
Its all about making a more stable platform - for the shooting I do -- that involves being out on the gun.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Iraq/Mk262autotest1.jpg
Edit:
I'm not try to be argumentative.
BTW that is a Stainless Steel 1:7 Douglas SPR profile 16 midlength barrel. I dont necessarily agree with LAV on everything either ;)
Well, I decided to compare two different holds. One being out on the gun, aka LAV style. At the class I attended that he taught, he didn't use a VFG, just a "IPSC-like" hold on the handguard.
The other hold being the magwell hold. To be honest, I'm a big fan of the magwell hold. I consider it the most comfortable. I'm a lefty and haven't really had a problem with the ejection port, as long as I went "thumb forward."
Inspired by the footage of Saddam's hanging, I decided to break out the digital camera and record myself firing two shots with each hold.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k150/benellim4/th_P1010001.jpg (http://s87.photobucket.com/albums/k150/benellim4/?action=view¤t=P1010001.flv)
The magwell hold always "feels" better, but the tape shows it isn't the best. I'm now sold on the forward hold.
DPort,
Great idea on the video taping for evaluation. I may try the same. Did you try both holds shooting NSRs (5-6 shots fired very rapidly semi-auto). It is like a Bill's Drill but with a carbine. Try this at 10 yards with the goal to keep them in the 10" ring and see which hold works best. Keep in mind that with the mag well hold you tuck both elbows in and pull the carbine in to your shoulder. Think like twisting and wringing a wet towel with both hands. Pointing the support thumb forward like I do when shooting a pistol is the method that I use even with a VFG.
KevinB,
Concur with you on the SS barrels as I have a Noveske 1:7 SS 5R polygonal on my 13.5 Infidel. That said, Larry gives credit to John Noveske and his barrels and carbines. I think when he mentioned SS barrels he mean't the Camp Perry SS rifled match barrels.
S/F
DPort,
Great idea on the video taping for evaluation. I may try the same. Did you try both holds shooting NSRs (5-6 shots fired very rapidly semi-auto). It is like a Bill's Drill but with a carbine. Try this at 10 yards with the goal to keep them in the 10" ring and see which hold works best. Keep in mind that with the mag well hold you tuck both elbows in and pull the carbine in to your shoulder. Think like twisting and wringing a wet towel with both hands. Pointing the support thumb forward like I do when shooting a pistol is the method that I use even with a VFG.
No I only did two rounds each to keep the length/size of the video down.
I used a NTCH hold and kept both elbows tucked in and did indeed keep the carbine tucked into the shoulder. If you watched the video you could see me readjusting to make sure my right elbow was tucked.
If I have time tomorrow, I'll do it again only with 5 rounds, with the shot timer. I can predict the results already. The difference was that noticeable.
DPort,
Great idea on the video taping for evaluation. I may try the same. Did you try both holds shooting NSRs (5-6 shots fired very rapidly semi-auto). It is like a Bill's Drill but with a carbine. Try this at 10 yards with the goal to keep them in the 10" ring and see which hold works best. Keep in mind that with the mag well hold you tuck both elbows in and pull the carbine in to your shoulder. Think like twisting and wringing a wet towel with both hands. Pointing the support thumb forward like I do when shooting a pistol is the method that I use even with a VFG.
S/F
As requested. Feel free to make fun of the times. I'm surprised that they were as close as they were because I felt more in control with the handguard hold. I also think I could have gotten the second shot off during the handguard hold faster.
A couple of notes. The target was an NRA law enforcement training target; the kind with an outer silhouette in black and an inner silhouette in grey. The target area was the inner silhouette, which is about the size of an FBI Q target. All shots were on target. The range was 25 yards. I kicked myself when I realized I had only brought one target, so no direct comparison of the two groups was possible, maybe next time. However, both groups would have been in a 10 inch circle as you had referenced.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k150/benellim4/th_P1010001-1.jpg (http://s87.photobucket.com/albums/k150/benellim4/?action=view¤t=P1010001-1.flv)
I watched both video's. To me, it appears that the muzzle rise and the effect on your stance in worse with the magwell hold.
The .06 time difference isn't much, however, shooting the same number of shots with both in nearly the same time, it would be clear to see the difference in group size. I bet the magwell hold group would be considerably bigger.
Mark
I watched both video's. To me, it appears that the muzzle rise and the effect on your stance in worse with the magwell hold.
The .06 time difference isn't much, however, shooting the same number of shots with both in nearly the same time, it would be clear to see the difference in group size. I bet the magwell hold group would be considerably bigger.
Mark
No argument here. I'll do it again sometime this week and compare group sizes. Hopefully, it will rain and I can get the range to myself again.
Mental note, get new batteries for the camera.
Dport,
I must be internet challenged as I don't see where you hung your video clips.
Thanks.
S/F
Dport,
I must be internet challenged as I don't see where you hung your video clips.
Thanks.
S/F
Just click on the pic; it should take you straight to the video.
Dport,
My errornet viral firewall must be set too high cause the only pic I see is the one by your forum name, which only leads me to your personal info. I don't spot any others posted in the thread. I'll lower my firewall setting and see if that changes things.
S/F
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu4qsRR2gfk
video clip of a local match i shoot in
iam hold on that gun just in front of the magwell on a vfg about 3 inches foward of it...
Steve,
You place your VFG where I place mine and run it the same way. I also hold (i.e. thumb placement etc.) and teach others to hold the VFG that way, which is also how to hold the magwell if using that technique.
It could be just me and I'll video myself in training to confirm, but I find this hold much easier to control the recoil for fast followup shots whether an accelerated pair, failure, or an NSR than extending my hold further down the forend.
S/F
correct if you look at the timer that was 8 rounds fired 2 seconds factoy RRA gun single stage trigger a zillion rounds through it though.
i keep trying to figure out what we really need to get MOP(minute of person) hits on targets i have tried both i see no real differance then again iam also gorrilla at 6'5 300 pounds
Re: how 3-gunners hold their rifles . . .
Just a bit of added data. There is no doubt that most of the really successful action rifle shooters hold with their support hand as far forward as possible with their forefinger pointing toward the target. I don't think there is much doubt that the farther forward your support hand is (regardless of how you hold it), the faster you can drive the gun onto target and transition between targets.
But . . .
Another thing is that virtually all of those same guys are shooting guns with full length gas systems, adjustable gas blocks, and really efficient compensators. Many of them (like Clark Gators) are quite heavy as well. The end result is that their guns don't move when they fire them. If there is any movement at all, it is straight backward. Because of that, such guns are more amenable to holds that are more relaxed and thus favor higher speeds. I'M NOT DISCOUNTING THE SKILLS OF THE SHOOTERS ... but I am saying, that given the same shooter, the right gun can make an enormous difference in how you can hold it and get good results.
Contrast this with the typical carbine someone might have for personal defense. It will have a carbine length gas system, no adjustable gas block, probably a flash hider instead of a comp, and it might be really light. That means it's going to move more when you fire it. That's why in the absence of a vertical foregrip, pulling backward on the magwell really helps.
Now, my skills are nowhere near the level of Strader's or Turtle's, but I can only relate my own experiences here. When I started shooting 3-gun about 12 years ago, it was with rifles that didn't move much when you fired them (all of them were borrowed and set-up for racing). When I got my own, it was a 16 inch HBAR, so even though it had a short gas system, it was still a heavy pig and had a decent comp on it. I learned to shoot with my support hand as far forward as I could reach (I have stubby arms). It worked out pretty well, and my transitions a few years ago were a lot faster than they are today.
Fast forward to when I started participating in formal defensive shooting classes. I "debuted" my li'l superlight carbine ... less than six pounds. When I fire it with my hand forward, it moves a LOT more (by my perceptions). Firing one or two shots is no big deal, but firing several at the same target is a bit different than with a rifle that moves less. In those classes, almost all shooting is done on one or at the most two targets, so control when firing multiple shots to one took precedence. I experimented with holding on the magwell and learned I could do better for those particular tasks when I used that hold and pulled the gun into my shoulder more tightly than I had in the past. It was also a lot more comfortable, especially over three days, again because of my stubby, T-rex-like arms.
So for the last few years I've been holding on the magwell for the most part. I even moved the switches for my lights to the right side of the magwell. For the type of shooting done in defensive shooting classes, it just works better for me.
By default, I've been using it in 3-gun as well for the last few years. I am, however, going to experiment with moving my hand forward again. I had the "epiphany" a while back that most action/practical shooters have when they realize that split times on a target (which would be better with my magwell hold) are far less important than target-to-target transitions as well as getting onto the first target quickly (which would be favored by holding as far forward as possible).
I don't want to go to the trouble, expense, and weight of a vertical foregrip, but I may have to do so in order to get the best of both worlds. I've resisted so far because of the realization that my arm length would require me to mount it almost at the magwell anyway, but an extra inch or two of lever could make a significant difference. If I can learn hold my li'l superlight back against my shoulder hard enough with my support hand farther forward without getting too tense, then it will be a step forward.
Of course, none of this matters if you're not pushing the speed while maintaining adequate accuracy.
Robb Jensen
01-16-07, 07:33
Rhino,
I'll have to agree to disagree with you I find the further out the support hand the more control of the rifle you will have. The recoil control, target transition and balance will be better with the support hand further out regardless of the rifle used as long as you have the same shooter. A magwell hold or way back on the FF tube or rail will be good and faster for more than 2 rounds per target up to distances of about 10yds. At these distances in 3gun I use my homeboy 45degree JP irons. I have them sighted in for POA/POI at 10yds.
At the Area 7 3gun Championship match.
Phil placed 1st in Tactical, Todd was 6th and I was 14th.
In just rifle Phil was 2nd, Todd was 6th and I was 8th.
Of the 3 rifle stages Phil and Todd both beat me in two of them each. In one (the big field stage) Phil finished the stage almost 11 seconds faster than I did, I had a faster time than Todd (1.57sec faster) but he beat me in accuracy and placed 1 slot higher than me. I should have done a reload in a different spot which would have required a lot less movement and thus a faster time. 2006 was my first year of 3gun and my 2nd year of IPSC so I was and I am learning stage strategy.
I beat Phil in one stage of the rifle I shot it both faster (almost 7sec faster) and more accurately.
On the bonus only stage 'Sniper Practice' Phil hit one more target than I did. And I beat Todd on this stage.
The whole trip up to Harvard MA I think Phil was worried I take him in rifle. He really smoked my ass with both shotgun and pistol. :D
At this match my 3gun rifle was a very heavy 20" AR. I've since then lightened it up and I'm finding it much faster between targets.
I've learned that a much lighter and shorter rifle is much faster and just as accurate for 3gun. Which is why I rebuilt my 3gun rifle smaller. I've also got a Larue SPR-E mount to get my scope further forward so I can use a much more consistant nose to charging handle hold which is also better for me.
Before.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/robbrifle.jpg
Now.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/3gunAR5.jpg
I agree with rhino..
The competitors tend toward a rifle grip
Running the carbine you will usually benefit from a more controllable position
The "reasons" originally given set off my alarms by the inclusion of those urban legends regarding monopod and mag holds causing malfunctions.
Feel free to do what works for you but not for those reasons;)
I experimented a LOT with VFG placement and (for me) found that further back gave better control on the AR
On my AK's I use the magazine all day/all the time
New shooters always adopt the "chicken-wing" and forward grip stance of the rifleman
I ususally cut their groups in half by switching them to the tucked elbows/pulling back approach...it is simple leverage and their ability to squeeze the forend becomes moot
Once again...do what works for you
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