Crititque my groupings on my first outing

[fruitjacket]

EDIT: MODS...feel free to move if I'm in the inappropriate forum.


OK, I finally had a chance to head out with my new Daniel Defense M4.
Thanks to everyone who informed me and helped me make my choice, I'm very happy with my rifle.

First up was a 50yd target and my new Aimpoint C3 from Grant.
It took a while to get it zero'd in, but I'm pretty happy overall with it's abilities at 50yds. These shots were all taken outside with a pretty brisk wind left to right, and occassionally straight on. I'd say anywhere from 5-20mph.
Ammo was Wolf Steel cased crap with 55 grain bullets of a bipod with a sandbag support for the rear portion of the stock.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x199/fruitjacket/AR15/Shooting%203-29-09/ShootingDay3-29-09001.jpg

This shot is my final adjustments with the Aimpoint at 50yds still. After dialing it in, I was consistently inside the "Middle" diamond, which is pretty astounding considering the 2MOA dot pretty much covered the entire outer diamond at 50yds.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x199/fruitjacket/AR15/Shooting%203-29-09/ShootingDay3-29-09008.jpg

This image is a shot of a couple of groups shot by my 'spotter' (had to keep him interested ya know). 50yds, aimpoint, wolf 55 grain.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x199/fruitjacket/AR15/Shooting%203-29-09/ShootingDay3-29-09005.jpg
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x199/fruitjacket/AR15/Shooting%203-29-09/ShootingDay3-29-09007.jpg

This is where we switched to 100yds and started sighting in my new Mueller Tactical 4x16 50MM scope. It's a cheaper scope, but I've read pretty good reviews, and I'm pretty sure that the failure to tighten is 'me' and not the weapon.
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x199/fruitjacket/AR15/Shooting%203-29-09/ShootingDay3-29-09013.jpg

After dialing in my scope, here is a 3 round group I shot at 100yds, off bipod and bags, pretty strong winds, Wolf 55 Grain.
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x199/fruitjacket/AR15/Shooting%203-29-09/ShootingDay3-29-09006.jpg

And just for fun, here's my custom Ruger 10/22 I built last year at 50yds off bags.
I was pretty happy with the grouping here, even though I had a couple of strays because I was squeezing pretty fast.
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x199/fruitjacket/AR15/Shooting%203-29-09/ShootingDay3-29-09012.jpg

So...My questions.

I was VERY happy with the aimpoint's results. At 50yds, even as a newbie I'm pretty dang accurate (at least I think so).

However, when we switched to the 100yd range, I could not get reliable groupings. At times I was SURE I was squeezing with zero held firm and it would be as much as 3 inches off. I started to learn some of my shortfalls as I shot (squeezing and breathing), but I'm sure I have plenty to learn.
But I'm a bit concerned it might be my scope, a dirty rifle (had probably shot 80 rounds through it during the day), wind, or worst case...me.

Any input is welcome. I can certainly take any criticism.

Thanks!

[fruitjacket]

34 views and not one reply?

How about I make it easy?

1st option: Nice shooting Fruit. Not bad for a first time out with your new rifle.

2nd option: You suck. Take a class.

[crossgun]

Ok I will play!

Both you and the rifle are easily "Minute of Scum Bag". Need we say more.

[fruitjacket]

Ok I will play!

Both you and the rifle are easily "Minute of Scum Bag". Need we say more.

Yes, please elaborate. I'm anxiously awaiting your input.

[RogerinTPA]

Not bad shooting over all. The first 50 yard target, it looks like your rounds are drifting to the right which means you probably need to watch your trigger pull. Use the first pad on your trigger finger if you aren't already doing so. Too much finger (The joint and beyond ) will result in too much trigger pull, and pulling the sights to the right at the time the shot breaks.

The 100 yard groups seems to be waffling up and down, so watch your breathing, take your time, and the groups should get tighter.

Most folks commonly shoot too damn fast to get an accurate zero. When I zero, I take 1-2 mins per shot. If I can't get it by then, I relax and start BRASS (Breath, relax, aim, slack, squeeze) all over again. Also, when zeroing, you need the support of a good sling if you aren't using one. Use a conventional, GI sling or good 2 point sling, that's adjusted pretty tight. I use the Blue Force Vickers 2 point sling on 3 of the 4 AR's I own. After you get a good zero, then you can add what ever favorite tactical sling back.

[LOKNLOD]

I'd say that's a decent 100-yard group for shooting Wolf. It's not exactly match grade ammo.

[mark5pt56]

leaving out equipment issues (ammo/weapon capability, etc.

Normally with long gun group reviews

1- vertical deviation-breathing

2-horizontal-body alignment/muscle relaxation/natural point of aim

3-triangular pattern- not focusing on the front sight/cross hairs

There's always other issues that come into play such as trigger control or influencing the gun whether from the support arm or strong arm/hand

Example being squeezing the strong hand as you pull the trigger or relaxing the support arm(that being partial to muscle relaxation)

[fruitjacket]

Not bad shooting over all. The first 50 yard target, it looks like your rounds are drifting to the right which means you probably need to watch your trigger pull. Use the first pad on your trigger finger if you aren't already doing so. Too much finger (The joint and beyond ) will result in too much trigger pull, and pulling the sights to the right at the time the shot breaks.

The 100 yard groups seems to be waffling up and down, so watch your breathing, take your time, and the groups should get tighter.

Most folks commonly shoot too damn fast to get an accurate zero. When I zero, I take 1-2 mins per shot. If I can't get it by then, I relax and start BRASS (Breath, relax, aim, slack, squeeze) all over again. Also, when zeroing, you need the support of a good sling if you aren't using one. Use a conventional, GI sling or good 2 point sling, that's adjusted pretty tight. I use the Blue Force Vickers 2 point sling on 3 of the 4 AR's I own. After you get a good zero, then you can add what ever favorite tactical sling back.

Thanks for the input. I was learning on the fly, and to be honest, I was learning to squeeze ever so slowly (esp at the 100yd range). All while breathing slowly and trying to maintain zero. I actually had to 'trick' myself to not 'prepare' myself for the recoil (not that it's anything to freak out about) but moreso to avoid the recoil anticipation and just focus on breathing and maintaining zero.

My dad was a Marine in vietnam..he always said BRASS was Breath, relax, aim steady, squeeze. What is 'slack'? He is old, ya know. :-)

I appreciate the input, and I should note that towards the last sets of 100yd shots, I was taking literally 45-60 seconds per shot, if not more. I was struggling with the eye relief at 16x and if I couldn't maintain zero, I backed off and re'grouped'.

I wish it shot as easy as my .22 :-)

[fruitjacket]

I'd say that's a decent 100-yard group for shooting Wolf. It's not exactly match grade ammo.

Thanks. But here's the F'd up part. I switched over to some Remington UMC or whatever it's called Brass and my groups went EVERYWHERE with that ammo. It was way worse than with the Wolf, which is why I was worried the Wolf dirtied up my chamber, etc.

My Grandfather was a gunsmith and loaded his own rounds and always told me a dirty gun would shoot more true than a clean rifle because you only get one really 'clean' shot. I figured after 80 rounds...it would be 'dirty' enough. But once I put the Remington in, I lost all control. And I was even more controlling than before but the groups were HORRIBLE...some didn't even hit the paper.

It was a fun, frustrating and very confusing day.....but like I said...at 50yds, the Aimpoint was MONEY. I literally could have shot a target within 2 inches of my mark and not miss with a liberal amount of time to steady. (I hate the word liberal).

[fruitjacket]

leaving out equipment issues (ammo/weapon capability, etc.

Normally with long gun group reviews

1- vertical deviation-breathing

2-horizontal-body alignment/muscle relaxation/natural point of aim

3-triangular pattern- not focusing on the front sight/cross hairs

There's always other issues that come into play such as trigger control or influencing the gun whether from the support arm or strong arm/hand

Example being squeezing the strong hand as you pull the trigger or relaxing the support arm(that being partial to muscle relaxation)

Thanks for the input. My primary concern with the horizontal control was that I was running on a bipod and I think the bipod springs wanted to 'cant' from one side to the other if I didn't get the rear sand bag to align appropriately. I struggled to align them properly and ultimatley I figure getting a shooting "stand" is probably going to make me aware of what my flaws are. I think that's the reason I struggled to zero in the scope (I'm hoping). I'm pretty sure the rifle shoots better than I can, even with Wolf junk.

Overall, I was wondering if these are sh1t groups. Because I didn't walk away from the 100yd range feeling real good about my shooting skills, but looking at my .22 target, I feel I can shoot pretty tight groups. But that's apples to oranges.

[RogerinTPA]

Thanks for the input. I was learning on the fly, and to be honest, I was learning to squeeze ever so slowly (esp at the 100yd range). All while breathing slowly and trying to maintain zero. I actually had to 'trick' myself to not 'prepare' myself for the recoil (not that it's anything to freak out about) but moreso to avoid the recoil anticipation and just focus on breathing and maintaining zero.

You have to learn "respiratory pause". Take a breath, let half out or let it all out, while holding your breath long enough. When the sights stop bouncing, due to heart rate, breathing or pulse induced movement, take the shot.


My dad was a Marine in vietnam..he always said BRASS was Breath, relax, aim steady, squeeze. What is 'slack'? He is old, ya know. :-)

I'm Army trained. "Slack" means take up the slack in the trigger, right before the hammer drops and the shot is fired. It makes for a more precised shot. FYI, there are many variations of the acronym BRASS. Mine is just one, but all are designed to induce more accurate shot placement.

[mark5pt56]

Remember, respiratory pause, should be the bottom of your breathing cycle. Think of the breathing cycle as a wavelength, peaks and valleys. It's the most consistent. While staring a the crosshairs, on your respiratory pause, slow steady pressure on the trigger to the rear.

Even with the bipod, you can influence the gun. Try using a rear sock or rabbit ear bag to steady the weapon even more and remove more chances of influencing it.

Something to consider also is you fired upwards of 80 rounds? While it may not seem like alot, that's alot of mental and physical drain when trying for accuracy.

Think of your attention span as well and you also have good and bad days.

The weapon/ammo combination is a whole other ball of wax. Not saying anything bad about anything you used. The fact of the matter is every weapon has a "favorite" brand, load, etc. Some don't favor any.

Me personally, with a standard "M4" and an Aimpoint, if you can pull under a 2" group at 100 with a rest, be happy. Can you do better, of course-but if groups you want - get a 40X scope and a bench rest rig.

Hope that helps!

---when using the 16x scope you have-try a smaller bull, maybe a 1" or less black circle or square

print this out
http://www.6mmbr.com/targets.html

[fruitjacket]

Remember, respiratory pause, should be the bottom of your breathing cycle. Think of the breathing cycle as a wavelength, peaks and valleys. It's the most consistent. While staring a the crosshairs, on your respiratory pause, slow steady pressure on the trigger to the rear.

Even with the bipod, you can influence the gun. Try using a rear sock or rabbit ear bag to steady the weapon even more and remove more chances of influencing it.

Something to consider also is you fired upwards of 80 rounds? While it may not seem like alot, that's alot of mental and physical drain when trying for accuracy.

Think of your attention span as well and you also have good and bad days.

The weapon/ammo combination is a whole other ball of wax. Not saying anything bad about anything you used. The fact of the matter is every weapon has a "favorite" brand, load, etc. Some don't favor any.

Me personally, with a standard "M4" and an Aimpoint, if you can pull under a 2" group at 100 with a rest, be happy. Can you do better, of course-but if groups you want - get a 40X scope and a bench rest rig.

Hope that helps!

---when using the 16x scope you have-try a smaller bull, maybe a 1" or less black circle or square

You might be onto something with the numerous rounds fired that day.
I was getting pretty 'mentally' drained after a while. Good advice all around...I'll give it all a 'shot'.
thanks for the input.

[mark5pt56]

I added one more thing in the last post-link to a target

Another- tip-adjust impact so your group doesn't clutter the aiming point. Just do this to test groups and go with point of aim-point of impact thereafter on a defensive weapon.

http://www.uspalma.com/Targets/targets.htm

[fruitjacket]

I added one more thing in the last post-link to a target

Got your link. Thanks!

There was a guy at the range with a bolt .22 and a cheap scope dropping 1" targets at 100yds like it was yesterday. It was unreal. Nothing in the woods was going to escape him. Color me impressed.

[Littlelebowski]

Wolf won't affect your accuracy with other ammo unless you shoot 3K rounds through it and don't clean the copper out.

I choose #2 and work on your fundamentals as many have said before me. Glad you're out shooting.

[thopkins22]

I think one of the most overlooked parts of shooting is follow through. Of all the things I learned what helped me most beyond learning to use the sights was focusing to keep the trigger depressed after the shot and deliberately letting it reset instead of slapping off.

[decodeddiesel]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but when zero'ing an Aimpoint or *kringe* shooting for groups with an Aimpoint you want to reduce the dot brightness until you can just barely make out the dot. This will help with it covering a lot of the target and allow for more precise aiming. Other than that work the fundamentals. You can always try the cleaning rod/washer drill while at home.

-clear weapon and seperate weapon from ammo while dry firing....
-carefully insert cleaning rod so about 2 inches are protruding from the muzzle
-take up a good prone (or whatever you want to practice) firing position
-Charge weapon so as to cock hammer
-have a helper place a small washer or coin so it is balanced on the rod
-take aim on some spot on your wall or whatever so that you are pointed in a safe direction
- at your natural respiratory pause, slowly squeeze trigger maintaining good sight picture/sight alignment
-the weapon should dry fire, follow through, and the coin should have stayed on the cleaning rod

This will help with good breathing, trigger control, and follow through if you want to practice the fundamentals and can't get to the range.

[fruitjacket]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but when zero'ing an Aimpoint or *kringe* shooting for groups with an Aimpoint you want to reduce the dot brightness until you can just barely make out the dot. This will help with it covering a lot of the target and allow for more precise aiming. Other than that work the fundamentals. You can always try the cleaning rod/washer drill while at home.

-clear weapon and seperate weapon from ammo while dry firing....
-carefully insert cleaning rod so about 2 inches are protruding from the muzzle
-take up a good prone (or whatever you want to practice) firing position
-Charge weapon so as to cock hammer
-have a helper place a small washer or coin so it is balanced on the rod
-take aim on some spot on your wall or whatever so that you are pointed in a safe direction
- at your natural respiratory pause, slowly squeeze trigger maintaining good sight picture/sight alignment
-the weapon should dry fire, follow through, and the coin should have stayed on the cleaning rod

This will help with good breathing, trigger control, and follow through if you want to practice the fundamentals and can't get to the range.

Funny you mentioned that, because I discovered exactly that point. I turned down the intensity and subsequently had my best group with the Aimpoint. (where were you on Friday? ;) )

Thanks for the tips (everyone). I'm new, but hungry to learn as much as I can.

[AMMOTECH]

I switched over to some Remington UMC or whatever it's called Brass and my groups went EVERYWHERE with that ammo. It was way worse than with the Wolf, which is why I was worried the Wolf dirtied up my chamber, etc..

I've got a couple of targets some place where I compared UMC and Wolf. My AR has a 50y zero but I shot the groups at 25 using my GI tool (range) bag as support. The Wolf was much tighter.
If I can dig them up I'll post them.

.