View Full Version : Glock 22 question
Hey Guys,
Have the jamming problems associated with frame mounted lights been solved?
Also, if I change the barrel to a fully supported aftermarket offering, are there any other foibles that I need to worry about in the G22?
In my experience the light issue is still not fixed.
This topic gets brought up a lot. The short answer is yes and no...
Glock has made some changes to the mag followers, to the recoil springs and some other slight tweaks to the gun and the problem seems to continue for some. I've heard of LE guns bought as recently as last November that had some FTF problems.
I owned an "E" series G22 a few years ago and both the original frame and replacement frame gave me all sorts of reliability issues with and without the light attached. I changed out mags, springs and everything else and still had problems so I eventually sold the gun.
I have co-workers that run G22's of all sorts of vintages with Surefire lights that have never had a single hiccup.
I switched to all 9mm and 45 ACP for my Glocks. My G21 has never had a single problem (not even one) in over 5k rounds. At least 4k of those rounds were fired with a Surefire X200 attached.
My old 1989 G17 chewed up over 10k without a single issue before I sold it in a moment of stupidity. I just bought a brand new G17 and I'm sure it won't give me any issues either.
I've carried a 23 with an M3 for 9 years and it's worked great. Most of the team carries the 22, again without problems for the most part. By most part, the only time the FTF rears its head is during shield training. during these courses of fire the shooter is shooting one handed, unsupported, and frequently canting as well to be able see through the shield. In other words, they are limp wristing it.
Hey Guys, Have the jamming problems associated with frame mounted lights been solved?
Those reported issues were never as widespread as advertised, and bypassed many more users than experienced them.
Guns coming through some venues more recently, running TLR-1s, Surefires, and the like, all are running fine.
Also, if I change the barrel to a fully supported aftermarket offering, are there any other foibles that I need to worry about in the G22?
Unless you have some sort of specialty ap, there's little gain and potentially much to lose in switching from the OEM barrel.
and potentially much to lose in switching from the OEM barrel.
Including your POI moving.
Thanks for the responses guys.
So it sounds like the G17 is still noticeably less problematic... The "problem" is, I already have a G17, and I was thinking of perhaps adding a G22 to the collection....
In your experience, if one had to choose between the G22 or the M&P .40, based on build quality, reliability, and likely hood of parts breakage, which one would you go for?
I was/am considering the M&P .40, but I went to the M&P forum and it seems like those guys report their share of problems with strikers braking, mags dropping out of the gun, etc..
I have a couple of USP's in .40, but I wanted a gun more suited for competition with a shorter trigger reset, and a lower bore axis (although granted, this issue seems to be more of a canard than anything else), cheaper mags, and cheaper and more easy to obtain parts. Sort of a modern high cap home defense/competition/zombie tickler.
Unless you have some sort of specialty ap, there's little gain and potentially much to lose in switching from the OEM barrel.
I was thinking of doing this also due to wanting to be able to shoot lead bullets.
Including your POI moving.
That's a good point. Although I suppose I could go with a low profile adjustable rear sight, especially as I was considering the concept of getting a 9mm barrel for it also.
But what other problems were you guys thinking about with an aftermarket?
It wouldn't hurt to give the G22 platform a try. You could get lucky and join the majority of folks who have no problems with their guns.
My department issues the M&P 40. We started issuing the guns 09/07 and thus far have had no real issues. While I don't carry it on duty (my Kimber fills that role at the moment more thant likely soon to be replaced by my Glock...see my Peer Pressure post) my issued M&P just hit the 1200 round marks a few weeks ago and I have another 500 rounds sitting in my ammo closet waiting to go. I have yet to have a single failure with the gun. I actually have grown very fond of it.
Have the jamming problems associated with frame mounted lights been solved?
According to Glock as of yesterday: no.
It doesn't happen to every gun. It doesn't happen with every type of ammo. It doesn't happen with every type of light. But there are still some incompatible combinations (which seem to vary from gun to gun in some instances).
By most part, the only time the FTF rears its head is during shield training. during these courses of fire the shooter is shooting one handed, unsupported, and frequently canting as well to be able see through the shield. In other words, they are limp wristing it.
It would be worth finding out, though, don't you think, if that same problem occurred with a different brand/model of gun? The whole "limp wrist" thing amazes me. People like to brag about how bulletproof and reliable the gun is and then accept the fact that a less-than-perfect grip can completely disable it.
I was/am considering the M&P .40, but I went to the M&P forum and it seems like those guys report their share of problems with strikers braking, mags dropping out of the gun, etc..
From what I've seen so far, the only reports of strikers breaking have been due to significant dry fire. We've yet to see one break during live fire, even those guns which have been dry fired a lot. It's still a PITA but it's an inconvenience rather than death on a stick. Get a spare striker (which is smart regardless) and check your striker after each dry fire session.
The mag drop thing is about a year and a half out of date. Unless you buy a New Old Stock gun that's been on someone's shelves for two years, it won't affect you.
Another question: if you're primarily planning on using the gun for competition (and presumably need a .40 instead of a 9, as you already own a G17), why do you care if the G22 runs with a light attached?
madisonsfinest
04-01-09, 10:23
I have a Glock 22 which has not had any malfunctions until attaching a TLR-1 to it this year. It started with only about one malfunction per 150 rounds. Now they are occurring much more frequentley. Take the light off, and no malfunctions. I have generation 6 mag followers and 10 coil magazine springs. The fix is supposed to be the generation 8 mag followers and 11 coil magazine springs.
Shooting at inservice two days ago, I shot with some coworkers that bought ther 22's a year or two ago, and they came with the gen 8 mag followers and springs. They were not having any malfunctions with the light attached. I have ordered the followers and springs for my 3 mags and I will post back once they get here, and I'm able to put some rounds through it.
[QUOTE=Son of Vlad Tepes;340423]Hey Guys,
Have the jamming problems associated with frame mounted lights been solved?
QUOTE]
While oft quoted on the internet, it is hard to track down reliable reports. When it does happen, it seems to be specific to regions.
I took an instructors class in a state adjoining another wherein one internet reported claimed problems. The class had 25 Glocks, 22 of them were G22s with lights, 6 from the same major metro area. No one knew of any experienced or anecdotal problems with light mounted Glock pistols.
Like most other reports, this is a nice anecdote limited to a small geographic area.
Like most other reports, this is a nice anecdote limited to a small geographic area.
No, it's not. It's not happening to every gun but it's not limited to one area. Glock has taken substantial steps to correct the problem and is still working on it.
I enjoy a good episode of Lost as much as anyone, but how does a geographical location affect polymer pistol frame flex?
Get a spare striker (which is smart regardless) and check your striker after each dry fire session.
Todd,
Does S&W sell spare strikers to non-LEO? I thought you had to send it in to them for the striker replacement?
This has been one of my main reservations on buying an M&P - I was under the impression that you can't buy spare/replacement parts?
Thanks.
Race -- I'm not sure, since they sent me a handful as part of my test. But my understanding from the mp-pistol.com forum is that they do sell them, as do some other places (Brownells, Speed Shooter Specialties, etc.).
I bought a spare from Brownells...and another from Midway if im not mistaken.
Non-LEO.
I think Brownells carries about ever part to build one piece by piece if desired.
Glock has made some changes to the mag followers, to the recoil springs and some other slight tweaks to the gun and the problem seems to continue for some.
When you said "recoil springs", I think you meant magazine springs. Off of the top of my head (without checking my notes), I don't think the factory recoil spring on a G22 has ever changed. If I am wrong, someone please correct me.
As someone mentioned earlier, Glock went to an extra coil MAGAZINE spring (11 coils) to help solve this problem.
If you are switching barrels to try to avoid a "kaboom" problem, I would suggest simply not chambering the same round more than once or twice. The more frequently you chamber the same round, the more likely the chance of bullet set-back which is primarily why these things kaboom (IN MY OPINION).
Joe Mamma
When you said "recoil springs", I think you meant magazine springs. Off of the top of my head (without checking my notes), I don't think the factory recoil spring on a G22 has ever changed. If I am wrong, someone please correct me.
I know Glock is currently exploring whether a recoil spring/guiderod change will help. Don't know if they've already seeded the ground with some updated versions to assess impact.
[QUOTE=Son of Vlad Tepes;340423]Hey Guys,
Have the jamming problems associated with frame mounted lights been solved?
QUOTE]
While oft quoted on the internet, it is hard to track down reliable reports. When it does happen, it seems to be specific to regions.
I took an instructors class in a state adjoining another wherein one internet reported claimed problems. The class had 25 Glocks, 22 of them were G22s with lights, 6 from the same major metro area. No one knew of any experienced or anecdotal problems with light mounted Glock pistols.
Like most other reports, this is a nice anecdote limited to a small geographic area.
What do you consider reliable? I know at least one other poster here who has had alot of issues with the G22, and researched it extensively.
I worked at a Govt facility that had the problem, the Govt facility I work at now, reports the same issues, and is why we currently do not have weapon mounted lights, which PO's me to no end.
As Todd pointed out, and is often pointed ut in these threads, every G22 has not had the problems.
There are also differing combinations of Lights, ammo, mags spring, follower, and mag & recoil spring fatigue/strength that produce varying results.
the first facility I mentioned had no problems with M3 lights, and bulk training type ammo, FMJ winchester white box, federal american eagle, etc.
when we switched to TLR1 lights and Ranger T ammo, trouble, and then not everygun, everytime, but enough that we had the DOE/NTC armorers and Glock reps look at them.
For a military or Le weapon, it only takes a very small number of guns malfunctioning to call teh whole group into question.
Bob
I have a new (purchased a few weeks ago, test fired in February) LE G22.
It has 11 coil mag springs.
With an X200/X300 attached it does this every once in a while:
http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/G22malf.jpg
No issues with the light off. I have replaced the mag springs with Wolff extra power springs and also the recoil spring with a heavier Wolff and a steel guide rod. Haven't been to the range long enough to test it with the light.
When you said "recoil springs", I think you meant magazine springs. Off of the top of my head (without checking my notes), I don't think the factory recoil spring on a G22 has ever changed. If I am wrong, someone please correct me.
As someone mentioned earlier, Glock went to an extra coil MAGAZINE spring (11 coils) to help solve this problem.
If you are switching barrels to try to avoid a "kaboom" problem, I would suggest simply not chambering the same round more than once or twice. The more frequently you chamber the same round, the more likely the chance of bullet set-back which is primarily why these things kaboom (IN MY OPINION).
Joe Mamma
No I meant recoil spring.
When I contacted the local Glock rep and told him about the problem he said it was "known." He sent me a packet with two new recoil spring units he said were "different" (I never asked him how they were) as well as four magazine springs (all for free). It didn't solve the problems with the gun for me.
A steel guiderod fixing the problem is not something I've played with. I wish I still had the gun and I probably would have tried putting a steel or tungsten guide rod in. I'm curious what effect that would have on the gun if any.
There is along thread over at 10-8 covering this, and a few over at LightFighter, take a look, lot of info.
Bob
"Like most other reports, this is a nice anecdote limited to a small geographic area."
Not so.
We had 350 bad guns here, traded them in for G17s in order to get guns that worked. At the same time Indiana State Police had the same issue, and found the same solution, they had 850+ guns.
I have talked to coppers in California, Texas, Nebraska, Wisconsin, Florida, Maryland, Ohio, Virginia, and New Jersey who are having issues with their G22/23s.
I'm not a Glock hater, I used to own 5 Glock .40s, I now own the same number of Glock 9mms, I carry Glock 9mms daily at work.
I trust them as I know they run whatever ammo, dirty or clean, whatever light is mounted, if I shoot loose or strong grip, one handed or two, whatever...
My personal G17 went 5700 rounds in one afternoon without a stoppage during testing I did here when the G22s crapped the bed on us.
I know of a large mid-western agency that is currently having issues with 900+ Glock .40s.
In many cases the lights cause issues. Not in all. Indiana, as an example, never had a light on any of their guns.
I have been shocked in how many cases the issue has been swept under the rug by command staff.
I know of two Cali departments that had to go to IMSI 14 coil mag springs to get their guns running, this causes them to have a 14 round mag in the G22.
I can get a G22 running with aftermarket guide rods and springs, but seriously, why should I have to? It's not a hobby shooting .38Super comp gun for shooting IPSC with.
I teach for Strategos on the side, and help out at a couple of other places. In the past three years I have not attended a live fire session where at least one Glock 22 wasn't choking, or broke parts that I had to fix for the officer. Their .357s have similar issues.
Oh yeah, IT IS NOT "LIMP WRISTING"!!!!!!. That is total BS, and the same BS excuse Glock attempts to use on folks.
On my issued G22 I could choke the gun on demand, by using a strong two handed grip in a strong isosceles stance. I'm 6'2" and my bench runs around 350 on any given day.
I could take that same gun and shoot it one handed with a purposefully loose grip and it would run all day. Why you ask? Because the issue is excessive slide velocity.
On some guns it is a case where a less than perfect grip can cause issues, that is still a gun problem.
If your gun only runs on a flat range, on a beautiful spring day when white puffy clouds float overhead, it's not a combat weapon, it's a range toy.
Your sidearm should work if you are shooting one handed, from the ground, are hurt, hanging from a frakkin trapeze, whatever.
The issue is far from resolved, mainly because Glock is in denial that it exists.
Start here;
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/481101302
Very very interesting. Thanks again for the great info everybody.
Todd, to answer your question about why I'd be worried about the light issue. Well, I would also like the option of using the gun as a home defense pistol, and I might decide that a gun mounted light is something that I'd like to equip the gun with. I am a civilian, and even though I don't consider myself a slouch when it comes to shooting, tactically I am decidedly high drag and low speed, and as such I probably prefer a non attached light anyway, but if I'm going to sink some duckets into a pistol I'd like to know that it has no inherent handicaps, if that makes sense.
Regarding the M&P, has anyone had any trouble with strikers breaking while using a good snap cap (eg, A-Zoom)?
Also, what is the consensus on the G35? More or less fleas than the G22?
The issue is far from resolved, mainly because Glock is in denial that it exists.
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a...51/m/481101302
fascinating read, thanks for posting it
How about the new Gen 4 G22's? I don't think that Glock address these issues in this latest iteration either.
The issue that I isolated the newer problem down to with the .40s is the frame.
The G22 and G35 have the same frame.
The newer rough texture guns? Too new, I don't know body that has one.
My suggestion, if you want to put a light on your gun, is to get a G17, or G34.
There ain't nothing wrong with a 9mm loaded with quality ammo.
If your gun only runs on a flat range, on a beautiful spring day when white puffy clouds float overhead, it's not a combat weapon, it's a range toy.
Your sidearm should work if you are shooting one handed, from the ground, are hurt, hanging from a frakkin trapeze, whatever.
Awesome.
Todd, to answer your question about why I'd be worried about the light issue. Well, I would also like the option of using the gun as a home defense pistol, and I might decide that a gun mounted light is something that I'd like to equip the gun with.
If your current G17 has a rail, you're already set. If not, get another G17 with a rail.
Regarding the M&P, has anyone had any trouble with strikers breaking while using a good snap cap (eg, A-Zoom)?
While snap caps appear to mitigate the problem, at least one poster on mp-pistol has experienced multiple striker breakages while using snap caps. It's not a panacea. Some folks use a dedicated striker (or a complete dedicated gun) for dry fire. For folks who don't want to go to that much trouble or expense, checking the striker after every session -- and having a spare striker on hand if you discover a problem -- is the smart way to go.
tpd223 - Great writeup.
If excessive slide velocity is the culprit, it looks like the G23 and G27 would be even more malfunction and breakage prone.
I suppose there is not nearly the data for them, since they wouldn't have the level of rounds fired as the G22s, though.
The G23s do have issues in my limited experience with them.
The G27s have two things going for them, the dust cover flex issue is taken from the equation due to the length of the gun and lack of a place to hang a light, the G27 also has the double nested recoil spring.
Although there was aPD in NJ that was having issues with their G27s as well.
I'll let you guys make your own decision with the following bit 'o evidence;
G22 does not feed, rounds don't even make it up to the feedramp, they are stubbed into the front of the magazine tube, when using 180gr Gold Dot running 1065fps and 165gr Gold Dot at 1185fps, gun magically starts working when fed Winchester 180gr running 920fps and FBI spec 165gr Gold Dot running 1020fps.
Same gun will work with the hotter ammo when a Wolff SS guiderod and 22lb recoil spring is used.
Same gun will work with the hotter ammo after I increase slide weight by hot gluing lead strips to the slide to mimic the slide weight of a G37.
I have told our local Glock factory guy what I think the long term solution is; stop shoehorning a .40 into a 9mm gun (or at least get rid of the rails on the G22/23 and make it a no light lightweight carry gun), and chamber the GAP guns in .40 and be done with it (would be a good idea for their .347s as well).
The next model# for them is the 40, what a coincidence.
This would give them a semi-auto analogy to the S&W models 66 and 686 (if one remembers the history of those wheelguns), one that is lighter for carry, one that is made to be shot alot and can take the beating.
tpd223 is RIGHT ON regarding this issue!
As Glock has been told many times, the long term solution is to put the .40 and .357 into the GAP platforms.
Of course, the solution for everyone else is to go with M&P's...
Has the .40 cal glock problem shown up in the G35?
dab
I have never had these issues....I have used 2 G22 and G35 over the last about 15 years with SFx200 and 300 lights, and TLR1 lights with no issues. And they have been fired a lot in LEO matches, 14 years of SWAT etc. I have not changed mag springs from stock ones or anything else. I have always heard of this issue but never seen it myself nor met anyone in my area that has personnally seen it.
I have never had these issues....I have used 2 G22 and G35 over the last about 15 years with SFx200 and 300 lights, and TLR1 lights with no issues. And they have been fired a lot in LEO matches, 14 years of SWAT etc. I have not changed mag springs from stock ones or anything else. I have always heard of this issue but never seen it myself nor met anyone in my area that has personnally seen it.
I'm with you! Although I don't doubt what tpd223 and others have seen. I've seen nothing like it in my neck of the woods. I've been carrying and shooting my G22 for over 5 years without a hickup. I haven't fired it very much with the light mounted since I don't carry it that way. But it didn't perform any different when I did mount the light.
I had five Glock 40s, 2 G35s, 2 G27s and a G22, never had an issue.
I was stunned when the 350 brand new guns we bought didn't work.
Glocks made since Dec 2005 have a different frame than the older FGR guns, the dust cover is stiffer due to how the serial number plate is built into the frame.
Even then, I know of runs of older G22s that have had issues. A copper I know who retired from Illinois advised that they were having serious issues with damage to the frames of their new G22s after a few years. These guns were quietly replaced by Glock.
The older guns have issues with slide peaning, etc. One needs to keep up on the maintenance to keep the guns running. When the recoil springs get worn it is very common to break or bend the trigger and/or locking block pins.
I continue to carry Glock 9mms, like I said, not hating on Glocks, just reporting observations.
If your current G17 has a rail, you're already set. If not, get another G17 with a rail.
---------
While snap caps appear to mitigate the problem, at least one poster on mp-pistol has experienced multiple striker breakages while using snap caps. It's not a panacea. Some folks use a dedicated striker (or a complete dedicated gun) for dry fire. For folks who don't want to go to that much trouble or expense, checking the striker after every session -- and having a spare striker on hand if you discover a problem -- is the smart way to go.
My G17 is a 2nd Gen.
The idea to get a new G17 for the rail is compelling, or maybe a G34 just to keep it less boring..I have to say there is great appeal in being able to have some G17 mags and be able to run a G19-34..shoot, maybe I need to smash the piggy bank and get a G19 and a 34!
How quickly can one swap out strikers in an M&P? I have to tell you, I'm a dry fire maniac and the idea of snapping strikers every time you dry fire sounds tedious. S&W ought to make a $20 M&P dry fire simulator gun..
tpd223 is RIGHT ON regarding this issue!
As Glock has been told many times, the long term solution is to put the .40 and .357 into the GAP platforms.
Is the GAP platform essentially an even shorter framed G21SF?
The idea to get a new G17 for the rail is compelling, or maybe a G34 just to keep it less boring..I have to say there is great appeal in being able to have some G17 mags and be able to run a G19-34..shoot, maybe I need to smash the piggy bank and get a G19 and a 34!
If you already have a G17 with mags and accessories, and you're already familiar & comfortable with the system, then getting another G17 (or G19) certainly seems like the logical solution.
How quickly can one swap out strikers in an M&P? I have to tell you, I'm a dry fire maniac and the idea of snapping strikers every time you dry fire sounds tedious. S&W ought to make a $20 M&P dry fire simulator gun..
How is Smith going to make a simulator gun that is even close in weight and function for $20? :rolleyes:
As for the striker, it installs and disassembles identical to the Glock. You don't have to swap it out every time (though that would be the safest approach) ... just check to make sure it's functioning at the end of a dry fire session. If it's not, remove it (or rather, remove the pieces) and install a new striker.
Is the GAP platform essentially an even shorter framed G21SF?
No, it's basically a beefed up G17. Unlike when Glock shoehorned the .40 into the 9mm pistol, when they developed the GAP guns they actually took the time to deal with such issues as slide velocity by changing the system enough to deal with the larger round.
Think G17 lower with a .45 sized slide on top.
Maybe a fix from Glock might be the G35, without an opening in the slide, to add weight to the slide. Shortening it to a 5" barrel might not be bad, either.
I don't know if that would address the frame flex, though.
I ran a G24 barrel and slide for fun (not carry) a few years back. You could definitely feel a difference in slide speed and recoil.
How is Smith going to make a simulator gun that is even close in weight and function for $20?
That was more of an off hand comment that I didn't expect anyone to really take that seriously. But since you mention it, the idea might still be silly, but how about a high impact plastic facsimile with moving parts only to simulate the trigger action, not the weight, although I'm sure a cheap ballast can be put in the gun so that it has a more realistic heft to it. Now, again, this is probably a daft idea, but how much would a dry fire simulator (gee this sounds a lot like a toy plastic M&P with a realistic trigger action) realistically cost? As far as the weight issue goes, a lighter gun would force one to have even better trigger control to keep those sights rock steady during dry fire. Stupid idea, or brilliant training tool, you decide. :D
And as far as the .40 S&W goes, Todd, shooting is your expertise so I'll defer to what you think a minimum requirement split time for defensive shooting is, but IMHO 7 yard .25s split times coupled with good vital zone hits is probably fast enough. I think that this is achievable even with a good compact .40 caliber weapon, not to mention a full size, like the G22. With practice of course this can get quicker and I just don't see the .40's recoil out of an adequately sized semiauto being prohibitive to rapid, accurate, fire for self defense, unless one is anti-talented. But then again I spent many years firing 125 grain JHPs out of a 4 inch S&W 586 and to me shooting 180grain .40's out of my USPc and USP full size is downright breezy to shoot.
And I'm sure that given your CV you can shoot the .40 fast enough for a self defense situation, but perhaps, given your high abilities and quest to maintain world class speed, naturally gravitating to a round that facilitates faster shooting, like the 9mm, is understandable.
Anyway I'm not a .40 fan boy, I like shooting .22-.44magnum, and I think that the 9mm is fine, but maybe we'll agree to disagree about the .40, as I think that it does represent a ballistic edge while still providing good controlability. But I do appreciate your thoughts and taking the time to make your argument, especially to a person that posts seldom on this forum (mainly cause I'm a lurker here, because generally I am busier learning things than feeling compelled to make comments to obvious professionals).
Regarding getting a case of high quality 9mm ammo to have for posterity's sake is a good idea, but I was thinking of a scenario where one might need to scrounge for ammo, maybe even on the road.
http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/G22malf.jpg
that's one heck of a jam..what is strange is the intermittent nature of the jams, even when the light is on..
No, it's basically a beefed up G17. Unlike when Glock shoehorned the .40 into the 9mm pistol, when they developed the GAP guns they actually took the time to deal with such issues as slide velocity by changing the system enough to deal with the larger round.
Interesting, I haven't handled a G22 in years, but when I did, it was a second Gen, and I remember it being much tighter in a holster that I had for my G17. At the time I just assumed that they had beefed up the slide slightly for the .40, and I have always assumed that the G22 slides do have slightly larger dimensions compared to the G17.
Here's an anecdote for you. It happened to my G22 that was equipped with a Surefire X200. I was using Federal 165gr. FMJ. The gun was purchased in California and I believe that it was made in 2005.
BTW- It happened during a Surefire Low-Light Course. It didn't happen everytime or all the time, but it happened. Without the light it was shooting 100% and always has.
[QUOTE=Son of Vlad Tepes;340423]Hey Guys,
Have the jamming problems associated with frame mounted lights been solved?
QUOTE]
While oft quoted on the internet, it is hard to track down reliable reports. When it does happen, it seems to be specific to regions.
I took an instructors class in a state adjoining another wherein one internet reported claimed problems. The class had 25 Glocks, 22 of them were G22s with lights, 6 from the same major metro area. No one knew of any experienced or anecdotal problems with light mounted Glock pistols.
Like most other reports, this is a nice anecdote limited to a small geographic area.
SoVT -- No question that we can split hairs about splits and expansion diameters, and in the end it's probably all just so much flotsam in the ocean of internet debate. For what it's worth, my position has always been this: if the experts say there is little difference between the "fighting calibers" with proper ammunition selection, then why not get the gun I shoot better?
I agree that a .25 split is good. Will it be good enough? Won't know until afterwards. Will the spread of your shots on a .25 split result in good enough hits? Won't know until afterwards. Given all the variability from lot to lot, bullet to bullet, and (when appropriate) barrier to barrier, it's hard to control the ammo or predict an individual round's performance. But I can control my own shooting skill, and I'd rather it be higher than lower if possible.
that's one heck of a jam..what is strange is the intermittent nature of the jams, even when the light is on..
Yes it was. Tap rack bang did not work, twice, very brisk. Mag didn't want to drop either. Had to rip it out. For this reason I will never have one of those grip plug things installed in any Glock I own, though this 22 will likely be my last.
Given all the variability from lot to lot, bullet to bullet, and (when appropriate) barrier to barrier, it's hard to control the ammo or predict an individual round's performance. But I can control my own shooting skill, and I'd rather it be higher than lower if possible.
I understand that, and that is a compelling argument. It is hard to argue with a fusillade of 9mm, shot fast and accurately. And I'm convinced that many people mistakenly go for a bigger, harder to control caliber just on the basis of that round's "street credentials" in spite of their ability to shoot well suffering.
Yes it was. Tap rack bang did not work, twice, very brisk. Mag didn't want to drop either. Had to rip it out. For this reason I will never have one of those grip plug things installed in any Glock I own, though this 22 will likely be my last.
I'm not even sure what you'd call that jam...it is like some hellacious reversed 3 point jam or something..well not really, but I hope you get my meaning.
Very interesting point about a grip plug defeating one's ability to muscle the mag out...I never even thought of that..I guess necessity is the mother of invention indeed! And yet those plugs is supposed to keep sand and detritus out of that channel that communicates with the trigger group/internals... I think this is yet another chink in the Glock Perfection armor :eek:
The grip plug should not prevent you from ripping the magazine out. When I'm doing dummy round drills I often get double feeds (due to the extractor slipping off the plastic rim). I run grip plugs in all of my Glocks and I can still rip the mag out by gripping the sides of the magazine. If you lock the slide back first, it makes it much easier to remove the mag as well.
With regards to Glock 22 malfunctions, I have experienced it firsthand. Last year during one hand officer down drills, I had several failures to feed during the same magazine. When I tapped the mag on the ground to begin my tap-rack-bang, the round would chamber. When I got home, I dissassembled the offending magazine and discovered it had an old 10 coil mag spring and a #4 follower. I replaced the spring with an 11 coil and the follower with a #5. The recoil spring had an unknown number of rounds (several thousand) so I replaced it. I now only carry newer production mags with #8 followers, I use the older generation magazines for range work. I also replace my recoil springs every two thousand rounds.
The grip plug should not prevent you from ripping the magazine out. When I'm doing dummy round drills I often get double feeds (due to the extractor slipping off the plastic rim). I run grip plugs in all of my Glocks and I can still rip the mag out by gripping the sides of the magazine. If you lock the slide back first, it makes it much easier to remove the mag as well.
Add moisture, blood, or debris, or fouling to the equation and repeat.
I wouldn't count on being able to lock the slide back, either, for mechanical reasons, or for the loss of precious time.
Observed, time and time again. Verboten in many venues.
Such widgets are most consumed by gun owners rather than shooters, and even of the shooters, the <50%-ile.
It's not the guide rod so much as the heavier spring that solves the issue.
Add moisture, blood, or debris, or fouling to the equation and repeat.
I wouldn't count on being able to lock the slide back, either, for mechanical reasons, or for the loss of precious time.
Observed, time and time again. Verboten in many venues.
Such widgets are most consumed by gun owners rather than shooters, and even of the shooters, the <50%-ile.
Still it seems some really reputable shooting professionals, such as Larry Vickers, recommend the plug as cheap insurance from getting sand/debris in the trigger mechanism (please reference is famous sand test on the USP, 1911 and Glock). I don't have a plug on my G17, that I do carry concealed, since I'm a civilian and don't do the low crawl through bushes or sand, but for military operators operating in a sandy environment, this sounds like it could constitute a dilemma.
Back to the light issue though. One thing that I'm a bit confused about: Am I understanding the problem correctly, is the mounted light impeding proper flame flex and therefore causing the jams?
The problem is not always the light. In my example above, I was not using a light. I have spoken with others that have had malfunctions when not using a light. However, the light seems to make the problem worse. Keeping a fresh recoil spring, or replacing it with a heavier spring, and using the newer 11 coil mag springs seems to help.
In reference to not using a grip plug, do whatever you like. I carry my Glock 22 everyday in a marine and outdoor environment. My gun routinely gets wet and muddy and I have never had an issue with not being able to pull the magazine out. I strip the mag out everytime I perform a reload, just in case it doesn't drop free. So you could say I've been able to remove the magazine by hand, usually wearing gloves, with a plug in the grip, several thousand times. I feel the benefit of keeping junk out of the trigger system far outweighs the need to get a full two fingered grip on the magazine. I am a professional and I carry a weapon for a living, I am far from just a "gun owner." In my line of work, the grip plug is a necessity and I meet very few people that actually use their Glocks that don't use the plug.
The frame, and how it flexes, or not, is the issue.
I use grip plugs myself as well, I've never had an issue with not being able to get a stuck mag out, and we have stuck the mag on purpose just to give it a try.
The grip plug does increase my reload speed as with the plug in I can't accidentally hook the top round in the magazine on edge the grip cavity.
Yes, being an armoer for awhile, I am aware of why the cavity is there. No problem, I pop the plug out every time I clean my gun/s.
msstate and tpd - what grip plugs do you guys use?
I use the Pearce grip plug. I prefer it to others because the Pearce is beveled instead of square. The Pearce acts as more of a funnel because it slopes into the magwell instead of being square.
If I used my Glock in an environmentally challenging environment I think that the argument pro using the plug is more compelling than the anti argument, IMHO.
Reason I was seeking clarification regarding what the exact frame flex problem was, is because I was speculating whether a stiffer polymer frame, ala what HK uses (more fiberglass?) or, more to the point, one of those steel CCF raceframes would solve the problem or not.
Any experience out there with an aftermarket steel frame, especially in the G22 (although come think of it CCF was offering only G17 frames)?
I think the steal frame would make the problem worse, as it appears the excessive slide velocity, due to lack of frame flexing is the issue.
As for grip plugs, I use them, and they due help with reloads. I use the Scherer? extended ones. They don't extend down further then the standard magazine base pad, but really help my reloads.
Was able to use one on my last issued gun, and had no issues with it. Current gun has no plug, and I'm not to cool with that.
Bob
The grip plug should not prevent you from ripping the magazine out. When I'm doing dummy round drills I often get double feeds (due to the extractor slipping off the plastic rim). I run grip plugs in all of my Glocks and I can still rip the mag out by gripping the sides of the magazine. If you lock the slide back first, it makes it much easier to remove the mag as well.
Hmm...all I know is, the lack of a grip plug made it much easier for me to rip that mag out.
I wasn't able to get the slide to budge until the mag was out.
I think the steal frame would make the problem worse, as it appears the excessive slide velocity, due to lack of frame flexing is the issue.
Bob
I see, and that makes sense. It would make sense that the lights impede proper flex, but I didn't realize that lack of frame flex also speeds up the slide velocity to unacceptable levels. And like you guys have indicated, with the already faster slide speed and lack of enough mag spring tension, etc, the whole thing is precipitously poised for a potential jam.
Hmm...all I know is, the lack of a grip plug made it much easier for me to rip that mag out.
I wasn't able to get the slide to budge until the mag was out.
That's why I don't use the plug. If they made a recessed plug that still allowed your thumb to go up the back strap, I might consider it.
We plug all our Glocks...
I sold my stainless steel CCF Race Frame. It did have issues, I was using it as a 9mm, gun ran OK most of the time, but my G34 upper had serious extractor bounce/fails to extract (this is also slide velocity related) issues. The system also ate buffers at an alarming rate.
Grip was really nice, and recoil was low, weird to have a Glock weight that much though.
I use these grip plugs, and recommend them to our folks here;
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=13077&title=SLUG%20PLUG?%20for%20GLOCK~
tpd,
Those are the ones I use, if they stick out just a tad from the frame. No more then the base pad of the mag.
Bob
John_Wayne777
04-06-09, 18:59
I see, and that makes sense. It would make sense that the lights impede proper flex, but I didn't realize that lack of frame flex also speeds up the slide velocity to unacceptable levels. And like you guys have indicated, with the already faster slide speed and lack of enough mag spring tension, etc, the whole thing is precipitously poised for a potential jam.
There is an excellent thread about G22 issues currently in the secondary weapons forum of Lightfighter. I'd suggest giving it a read when you have the opportunity.
I sold my stainless steel CCF Race Frame. It did have issues, I was using it as a 9mm, gun ran OK most of the time, but my G34 upper had serious extractor bounce/fails to extract (this is also slide velocity related) issues. The system also ate buffers at an alarming rate.
I always wondered why these didn't become more popular with competition shooters, now I know why.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...20for%20GLOCK~
Thanks for the tip
Sorry for the late bump, but the Wolff SS guide rod, 17 and 19lb recoil springs and Wolff extra power mag springs, and ammo change did not alleviate the problem. Just a heads up to anyone who thinks it is a simple spring issue. Again, this pistol started out with the 11 coil springs.
http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/G22malf2.jpg
Take the light of that glock and smash it in your 87ton press.
God never meant for man to have a stupid light on his pistols. :mad:
madisonsfinest
04-14-09, 19:09
Have you changed the slide spring assembly in a while? I would give that a shot if you haven't changed it for a while.
Sorry for the late bump, but the Wolff SS guide rod, 17 and 19lb recoil springs and Wolff extra power mag springs, and ammo change did not alleviate the problem. Just a heads up to anyone who thinks it is a simple spring issue. Again, this pistol started out with the 11 coil springs.
87GN, thanks for posting this. I appreciate the information.
Joe Mamma
I had to use the 20 or 22lb springs to get a few of our guns running.
What ammo are you using?
BTW, what you have there looks like extractor bounce to me.
One of my S&W 5906s had an issue with this after I had it a few years, when I shot Cor Bon 115gr JHP (what I carried at the time). I had to get an upgraded spring set from S&W that gave higher extractor tension.
I was having similar stoppages with my G34 upper on my CCF Race Frame. I installed the extractor plunger bearing from a G22, solved the issue for that gun, before I sold it anyway.
Oh, BTW, you are not having stoppages, you are "limp wristing", and imagining things, because Glock 22s don't have problems.
I have recently been informed of this.
I had to use the 20 or 22lb springs to get a few of our guns running.
What ammo are you using?
BTW, what you have there looks like extractor bounce to me.
One of my S&W 5906s had an issue with this after I had it a few years, when I shot Cor Bon 115gr JHP (what I carried at the time). I had to get an upgraded spring set from S&W that gave higher extractor tension.
I was having similar stoppages with my G34 upper on my CCF Race Frame. I installed the extractor plunger bearing from a G22, solved the issue for that gun, before I sold it anyway.
Oh, BTW, you are not having stoppages, you are "limp wristing", and imagining things, because Glock 22s don't have problems.
I have recently been informed of this.
CCI Blazer, Remington UMC, and Speer Gold Dot, all 180gr.
I had several people on TOS insist that I was limp wristing, as this was the only way a Glock could possibly malfunction. Oh, and heaven forbid I mention the 5 malfunctions of this type (or very similar) that I had with my G19. Heads explode.
I will look in to the fixes you suggested, thanks.
"Limp wristing" is complete BS. If your guns only runs well with a perfect grip in perfect conditions then it's not a self defense or duty weapon, it's a range toy.
My Glocks run fine when limp wristed on purpose, just sayin.
Besides, this isn't what happens when Glocks don't have enough oomph for whatever reason to run the slide properly, they tend to stove-pipe, as do most pistols.
Your issue is a fails to extract, my guess due to extractor bounce since the case is partially extracted.
I've not seen this in a G19 before. Have you had the slide apart?
No. I sold it. I was looking up malfunctions today and found pictures of "Phase III" malfunctions. That's what they looked like.
I tried to limpwrist the G22 with the light on and it shot perfectly. Strong grip, malfunctions.
So I should ask Glock about stronger extractor springs? Or replace the extractor depressor plunger?
OK, well some of the G19s had that issue, as the NYPD well knows. Since then Glock seems to have fixed that issue totally, at least with the G19s, as I haven't seen one, or heard of any since.
What is basically happening in your pics is the extractor is bouncing off of the case rim while the slide is coming back, the empty just sits there as it isn't being dragged back to hit the ejector, then the slide tries to feed the next round.
A stronger spring powering the extractor would fix the issue, but I don't know of anyone who makes one.
If your extractor bearing is worn or missing this would also be happening, I've seen this with our guns when someone takes their slide apart and doesn't get it back together without that little plastic looking doo-dad that doesn't seem important.
A heavier recoil spring could slow down the process enough to clear this up, as how fast the slide comes back has quite a bit to do with this.
Question; Does this happen without the light mounted?
You already said it will run when limp wristed, but not when gripped properly, so I'm guessing it runs with the light off as well (my G22 did the same thing).
I bought it brand new a few weeks ago, haven't messed with the slide at all, save for the recoil spring and the front sight.
As you guessed, it runs fine without the light, but I don't have a whole lot of rounds through it without the light, so I can't say definitively.
Personally, I wouldn't use a Glock .40, especially with a light.
If you have no reason not to, then my strong advice would be to trade it in on a G17.
Barring that, lose the light (pistol lights are not all that in my experience), if you just have to have a light then try lower impulse carry ammo, such as the 180gr Ranger-T might help. The Gold Dot didn't work in our guns either, too hot. Even their Blazer and Lawman would choke our guns. Try WWB for practice.
The 20 or 22lb recoil springs might also help.
Have a Glock armorer make sure the correct parts are inside the slide, you could have a gun someone forgot to put the bearing into, or put the 9mm bearing in by mistake.
I bought it on a whim locally. In hindsight I should have paid shipping for the LE G17 I was made aware of. I'm trying to find a G17 or a G17 slide assembly at the very least.
It is my only 40 handgun, I have a good number of other pistols, it just bugs me that it is so picky about ammo and needs to be run without a light and needs new springs and so on and so forth. I prefer to have all my pistols functional, even if they sit unused for months at a time.
In any case, I have plenty of pistols (sigs, M&Ps, etc) that have rails and shoot fine with and without lights, I like to have a handheld as well as a weaponlight, I'd rather have the option, y'know?
Thanks for all your help.
"I like to have a handheld as well as a weaponlight, I'd rather have the option, y'know?"
Why, yes I do. Feel the same way.
It also pisses me off when a gun won't run like it should.
Take the light of that glock and smash it in your 87ton press.
God never meant for man to have a stupid light on his pistols. :mad:
No, Glock made the gun with a rail, so they should make the gun "perfect" with a light mounted.
I really don't care what God intended, I want a light on my gun.
Your comment is whats stupid:rolleyes::mad:
Bob
Your comment is whats stupid:rolleyes::mad:
Bob
Thanks for your keen observation, BOB. The comment WAS SUPPOSED TO BE STUPID.
Thanks for your keen observation, BOB. The comment WAS SUPPOSED TO BE STUPID.
Anytime..
Bob
See... 87gn smashes things like mags in a press. Seriously.... so it's kind of a joke.
Sarcasm doesn't translate well on the web sometimes.
Unfortunately, I've seen more then a few posts such as that, pronouncing what God or John Moses Browning wanted, anything designed after 1911 is unworthy, etc etc and these guys are dead serious.
Bob
Ahh... I see... those goofballs. Gotcha. :cool:
I don't want to fuel an annoying controversy regarding limp wristing, but I believe I induced limp wristing related jams in my G17 when I first started shooting it (in 1989 before I even knew what the term was :D), although I was using 115grain CCI Aluminum Blazers at the time, so perhaps my particular gun just chocked on that particular ammo, I don't know.
Actually check this out:
Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9JhCyFFxA&feature=PlayList&p=49ECE6EADBD8DFD2&index=0&playnext=1) is a revealing video by a fellow poster on the firing line regarding limp wristing. It is on youtube for general viewing so I'm sure that he wouldn't mind me posting the link here.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.