View Full Version : poop-storm brewing
30 cal slut
04-01-09, 09:45
lol
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=853208
:D
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-01-09, 09:50
That's a whole lot of dumb over there. In some ways, just looking at the chart is going to bring out the worst in people.
Made by Colt marketing.
decodeddiesel
04-01-09, 10:02
*shrug* If anything reading that garbage is vindication for my presence here. Threads like that are the exact reason why I spend 99% of my time and energy posting and sharing information on this site and not ar15.com.
decodeddiesel
04-01-09, 10:20
OK so here's a question and sorry if I'm stupid for asking, but aside from the 16" barrel and lack of Burst FCG, does a 6920 strictly adhere to the M4 TDP?
Perhaps instead of having a Colt 6920 as the leading entry the chart would be better suited having the M4 Carbine TDP as the leading entry? This might cut down on the "Colt marketing gimmick" knee jerk a lot of people have.
I mean of course there's going to be the "Because I did not research, I spent my money on this *insert name of crappy AR here* and instead of admitting I made a mistake I will instead become emotionally invested in my gear and belittle everything else" people, but there are some who don't understand the real reason for the chart.
It is my understand that given the TDP and the fact that the Government spent a lot more time and tax dollars than anyone would like to fathom researching and developing those specifications, it would be best to compare to that when making a purchasing decision on a tool that one may be required to call upon to save their life or the lives of their loved ones one day.
Priceless.
It's just a marketing comparison to Colt. If you put DPMS in the first column and marked off all its features/specs, Colt would be all barren. I guess I don't get it.
I sure do wish that Colt would hurry up with those back paychecks. and it would be nice if I could get some respect from the dickheads they had working the booth at SHOT this year. After all, we all work for the same company.
:rolleyes:
John_Wayne777
04-01-09, 10:31
Some days make me contemplate drinking a few bottles of lighter fluid and then swallowing a lit match. Today seems to be one of them.
There are some real gems over there right now.
"Colt has double shielded handguards. LaRue rails can't say that."
This one is amazing:
"They never bother to rate which civilian parts are much better quality than milspec. Never crosses their mind that some civilian stuff could possibly not need MP inspection."
These people just dont get it. They voraciously defend their purchases until blood starts pouring from their mouths because they've bitten off their own tongues in a frothing, rabid frenzy to justify their own stupidity.
Bottom line, if you have an oly arms and you like it, fine, just shut the hell up about how many hadji bowling pins and umpteen billion rounds you've fired through it with nary an issue.
Joe_Friday
04-01-09, 10:52
I love it!!! :D
Hierarchy of AR-15s:
Tier 1 - What I bought.
Tier 2 - What my friends bought.
Tier 3 - The shit the rest of you bought.
(Stolen from Mech2007)
appreciate the updated chart. doublt i'll ever buy one off the shelf, but it does give me some more info to work with, when considering components.
Some days make me contemplate drinking a few bottles of lighter fluid and then swallowing a lit match. Today seems to be one of them.
Promise to put it up on YouTube? :cool:
The thing that really cracks me up about threads like that is that invariably, someone pipes up with something like:
"More fodder for the Tier 1 crowd to banter about"
Followed by hundreds of posts of people talking about how the chart sucks and sarcastically saying things like "I guess my RRA just needs to go in the garbage. It probably isn't even safe to shoot...".
The only people 'bantering' about anything are those who have no better time but to bitch about the chart.
"It's just a marketing comparison to Colt. If you put DPMS in the first column and marked off all its features/specs, Colt would be all barren. I guess I don't get it"
Rob_s, you should have made a chart like this for April Fools Day. Include things like commercial RE, out of spec chamber, and a panther on the lower. Then we could have had a fantastic meltdown at TOS.
Like others, I can't understand why others can't take the chart for what it is. When I first discovered it I set out to learn what everything meant and it helped me decide on my CD M4LE. While that gun doesn't have everyhing on the chart, I figured that it was a good buy for my needs. And no I didn't throw out my bushmaster rifle or get all huffy that it wasn't the best, I just saw a few things that should be upgraded and I hope to do those when I have the time and money.
There is some pretty good buffoonery happening over there.
Man, there sure is a lot of crying going on over there.
QuietShootr
04-01-09, 11:29
Priceless.
You can't make this stuff up, folks.
Going to TOS always reminds me why I stay here.
Another gem:
Fu@k that stupid chart!!!
All the chart does is list objective facts about rifles. You carrier is either staked or it's not. The bolt is either individuall MPI tested or it's not. You have a milspec RE or you don't.
I've never before seen anyone get so upset over a chart of objective facts.
I've never before seen anyone get so upset over a chart of objective facts.
Sure you have:
2000 Presidential Race Electoral College Breakdown:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/ElectoralCollege2000.svg/800px-ElectoralCollege2000.svg.png
Sure you have:
2000 Presidential Race Electoral College Breakdown:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/ElectoralCollege2000.svg/800px-ElectoralCollege2000.svg.png
ZING! :p
Never really looked at that site before and now I'm glad I didn't... sounds like a bunch of 12 year old girls whining and bitching that they bought the wrong Barbie doll!
decodeddiesel
04-01-09, 12:14
Another gem:
All the chart does is list objective facts about rifles. You carrier is either staked or it's not. The bolt is either individuall MPI tested or it's not. You have a milspec RE or you don't.
I've never before seen anyone get so upset over a chart of objective facts.
It's emotional investment in gear. People make poor decisions based off of bad gun store advise, lack of research, or hasty "I need it now" thought processes. They then seek vindication for their poor decisions and when they do not find it they become "butt hurt" and must be-little those who made wiser choices. I've seen it in all sorts of hobbies, and it's always the same old song and dance.
decodeddiesel
04-01-09, 12:16
Never really looked at that site before and now I'm glad I didn't... sounds like a bunch of 12 year old girls whining and bitching that they bought the wrong Barbie doll!
You're doing the right thing just staying here and ignoring it. About the only thing that sight is useful for is the equipment exchange, the "best choices for self defense ammo" article written by DocGKR, and a good laugh from time to time.
Hey just so you guys all know....I'm not military or a LEO so please dont tear into me and hurt my feelings to bad.
I spend most of my time over there but if I need solid advice I come looking here. Different target audiences, as shown by the reaction to the chart.
Some days make me contemplate drinking a few bottles of lighter fluid and then swallowing a lit match. Today seems to be one of them.
I vote for you dumping lighter fluid down THEIR mouth and lighting a match
some people are so shallow as to constantly need validation over what they bought :rolleyes:
RobS put together a handy chart and idiots come out of the woodwork :rolleyes:
rob_s,
You forgot this column to appease the TOS crowd and make them feel better:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_ZtefsH8f-P8/SdOkoHApDTI/AAAAAAAAAbY/GRl1fgzxcKE/s400/Picture%203.png
decodeddiesel
04-01-09, 12:48
rob_s,
You forgot this column to appease the TOS crowd and make them feel better:
Funny, though it could stand to be a little bigger.
30 cal slut
04-01-09, 12:54
Some days make me contemplate drinking a few bottles of lighter fluid and then swallowing a lit match. Today seems to be one of them.
tactical internet fire-belching personality?
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-01-09, 13:06
Four pages of snittiness over there. I fell dirty by proxy writing about it.
RobS, to be mean you could add a row "TOSser Rated", and check mark them all to make them happy.
The speed of the posts over there just shows that they are not delving into what the significance is.
RogerinTPA
04-01-09, 13:10
My favorite quote in that thread "I hate the chart and all it stands for". Where have I heard that one before???? Classic as always!:p
Like a giant black hole of stupid. I only ever visit that place when you dummies link me to something. I get mad at myself every time I fall for it and click the link. :mad:
Is there some requirement at ARF.com that your IQ be less than my circumcised penis? I mean really WTF? Apparently none of those morons get it.
I especially like the asshat who complains about Colt lowers with a sear block. Why? Are you going to do an illegal conversion? I'd be more concerned about the weapon being in spec and performing. God what a bunch of ****tards.
For all those that complain about the 'Chart'.........
New Chart:
Does your rifle fire and function with all ammo fed?
Can you hit a paper plate at 100yds?
Everything else.......GTG!!!
:D:D:D
MarshallDodge
04-01-09, 14:37
For all those that complain about the 'Chart'.........
New Chart:
Does your rifle fire and function with all ammo fed?
Can you hit a paper plate at 100yds?
You have a point there.
Is there some requirement at ARF.com that your IQ be less than my circumcised penis? I mean really WTF? Apparently none of those morons get it.
I especially like the asshat who complains about Colt lowers with a sear block. Why? Are you going to do an illegal conversion? I'd be more concerned about the weapon being in spec and performing. God what a bunch of ****tards.
That seems to be a pretty common point in threads like these..."oh yeah, well your 6920 doesn't have a mil-spec FCG" or "yeah but your LMT doesn't have a third position for the selector so that means it's not mil-spec".
Hey guys, look up. See that? It's the point, soaring over your heads...
decodeddiesel
04-01-09, 14:41
For all those that complain about the 'Chart'.........
New Chart:
Does your rifle fire and function with all ammo fed?
Can you hit a paper plate at 100yds?
Everything else.......GTG!!!
:D:D:D
Honestly for 90% of the people on that site you are correct, this is all their weapons would ever be called upon to do. The first time they take that weapon to a class however and really run it they're going to be in for a rude awakening.
They are so HSLD that they don't need training. It was endowed upon them as a natural gift. Just like their assclownery skills.
Honestly for 90% of the people on that site you are correct, this is all their weapons would ever be called upon to do. The first time they take that weapon to a class however and really run it they're going to be in for a rude awakening.
decodeddiesel
04-01-09, 14:49
They are so HSLD that they don't need training. It was endowed upon them as a natural gift. Just like their assclownery skills.
Indeed. :D
Wasn't it Todd who said 50% of all shooters believe they are in the 95th percentile when it comes to ability?
"Why should I pay for a class when I can spend the money and buy another DPMS?"
The thread on the other site proves without a shadow of a doubt that Darwin was right.
AnchorArmament
04-01-09, 15:05
God what a bunch of ****tards.
****tard has been my favorite word for the last 8 years. I do not think it is used often enough. Thank you for cheering me up today.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-01-09, 15:23
From TOS Page 4
"Originally Posted By GarandM1:
I used to get all butt-hurt by the Great Chart of AR Truth, but in reality as some have said here it's just a tool (and not an entirely accurate one, at that). If you look at the bottom, you'll see that in general more features = higher price. Each AR owner needs to decide what price he wants to pay and what rifle he really needs.
And in reality, 90% of AR owner's don't need the Ultimate Tacticool Rifle of Death produced by Colt. Their Bushy or RRA or Armalite will work just fine for them, and they can use the money they save to buy other stuff like ammo and accessories and mags. In the end they'll probably never notice the difference.
It's kinda like buying a car: Why spend money on a new BMW or Lexus with all the fancy features when a Buick will do the same? You probably will never be able to drive it enough to justify the extra cost. If you got the extra money, then great. If not, you're not really missing anything.
Posted by Automaton:
Holy shit
A guy who can read and formulate a reasoned opinion
get the **** out of this thread!
I spit out my Diet Co.. I mean my Whisky when I read that.
Is there some requirement at ARF.com that your IQ be less than my circumcised penis?
Do circumcised penises have a lower or higher IQ than uncircumcised penises?
More importantly, why do you know the answer to that question?
Do circumcised penises have a lower or higher IQ than uncircumcised penises?
More importantly, why do you know the answer to that question?
Racist.
30 cal slut
04-01-09, 15:36
somebody should add circumcised operator to the chart.
decodeddiesel
04-01-09, 15:37
Man anything that site touches goes to shit. Look at this thread? We've been brought down to the level of poo flinging monkeys.
Racist.
I'm not even sure how you made the connection between circumcision and race, but I'll simply accept that you have vastly greater first-hand (and/or first-orifice) experience with a wide range of different penises. :p
I'm not even sure how you made the connection between circumcision and race, but I'll simply accept that you have vastly greater first-hand (and/or first-orifice) experience with a wide range of different penises. :p
touche :o
lol.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-01-09, 15:51
Man anything that sight touches goes to shit. Look at this thread? We've been brought down to the level of poo flinging monkeys.
The downside of opposable thumbs.
sandman99and9
04-01-09, 16:12
Like a giant black hole of stupid. I only ever visit that place when you dummies link me to something. I get mad at myself every time I fall for it and click the link. :mad:
Did you ever get " rick rolled ? " :D
I actually went there and started reading the thread but it felt like my head was gonna explode !! I had to leave and come back here to sanity. Thank god I found this site shortly after joining TOS !! Real answers from real people that actually know what the hell they are talking about. BTW, I have a spike's tactical ST-15 is it on the list or should I send it to someone for proper disposal ??? lol It was available and in my price range and I will not be using it as a duty weapon or daily carry. Just my first ar15 and I like it. Thanks for all the good info guys !!!!
s.m.
Did you ever get " rick rolled ? " :D
s.m.
Yeah but not by a TOS link. Something else that I can't believe I fell for. Those are the best. :D
Gutshot John
04-01-09, 16:29
I swear to mike it's like watching a bunch of retards fighting over who's king of the short bus. :rolleyes:
Generic TOS thread response:
http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/playingstupid.jpg
medicman29
04-01-09, 16:49
There is a man-size amount of butthurt over the chart over there, and no amount of logic or arguing is gonna fix it. Trying to convince them of the values of the chart is like having a battle of wits with an unarmed combatant. When it's all said and done, he's still gonna reply with " well, I had cream of wheat for breakfast, so there!" , or something equally brilliant. A depth charge sized tube of preparation H seems to be in order. Like many of them, the chart is simply a tool, do with it what you will.
Hey if everyone made sense, we wouldn't have words like ****tard. I'm totally for diversity.
Jim from Houston
04-01-09, 17:22
Hey, it's difficult enough to find Colts, Noveskes, and LMTs as it is...the last thing I need is the sort of morons we see on that barf-com thread drying up more of the supply...way I see it, they should stick to their $600 p.o.s. AR clones and leave the good stuff for us sane folks...
Like a giant black hole of stupid. I only ever visit that place when you dummies link me to something. I get mad at myself every time I fall for it and click the link. :mad:
Exactly, there goes another 20 minutes of my life I'll never get back.
I'll stay here with all the "serious professional military and LE guys who get mad at me because I posted something about something that I had no idea what I was talking about, and got asked to provide some context to what I said, thereby making me feel like less of a man, because , well I just feel that way!":rolleyes:
Bob
"I swear to mike it's like watching a bunch of retards fighting over who's king of the short bus. "
roflmao, thank god I wasn't drinking when I read this.
I'm not sure what's funner, whackin' a hornets nest and running like hell, or trying to post anything intellectual over there.
Anyone else think the obama forum and TOS share the same members?
Belittling another site is nearly as logical as another site belittling the chart. take the high road and let it die an easy death
What I was getting at is (using my penis as an example) my tiny little penis seems to have more of an IQ than the large percentile of idiots at that place. :) I mean holy shit, guys.
Do circumcised penises have a lower or higher IQ than uncircumcised penises?
More importantly, why do you know the answer to that question?
decodeddiesel
04-01-09, 19:47
Belittling another site is nearly as logical as another site belittling the chart. take the high road and let it die an easy death
I don't anyone was belittling the site, merely the morons posting that thread.
stanlyonjr
04-01-09, 20:24
I all the post I read, not one of them had any comments disproving a accuracy of any information in Rob's chart. Just a bunch of off hand comments and snide remarks with no factual evidence disproving the chart. I believe Rob (who spent a lot of time making the chart) did it for the benefit of us all. It's great information. I didn't read anything in his chart that stated if you don't buy this brand your rifle is a POS. Is one rifle better than another? Depend what your using it for. Lots of good information in that chart to make a very educated and informed decision.:cool:
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-01-09, 20:29
I don't anyone was belittling the site, merely the morons posting that thread.
The guys on TOS are probably laughing their asses off about the M4C guys talking about circumcision. ;)
And it all comes down to mindset. If you purchased an AR for punching paper or photo ops then I really have to wonder where your head is. Every weapon I have serves one purpose first- PUTTING ROUNDS DOWN RANGE on someone or thing. The only one that doesn't fit that role is the Ruger 10/22.
In order to successfully do that I purchase the best ammo, weapons and gear that I can. Since the weapon is the primary part of the equation it also the one part where I don't compromise.
Some of the stuff I hear reminds me alot of my last year in the Coast Guard. Many of CO's on the cutters as well as the CO of our unit used to say weapons maintenance wasn't that important and that getting there was the key. My opinion was that getting there is great, but without a functional weapon system we are just another target.
I all the post I read, not one of them had any comments disproving a accuracy of any information in Rob's chart. Just a bunch of off hand comments and snide remarks with no factual evidence disproving the chart. I believe Rob (who spent a lot of time making the chart) did it for the benefit of us all. It's great information. I didn't read anything in his chart that stated if you don't buy this brand your rifle is a POS. Is one rifle better than another? Depend what your using it for. Lots of good information in that chart to make a very educated and informed decision.:cool:
The guys on TOS are probably laughing their asses off about the M4C guys talking about circumcision. ;)
Nah...a lot of them are busy looking up the definition of circumcision...
What I was getting at is (using my penis as an example) my tiny little penis seems to have more of an IQ than the large percentile of idiots at that place.
http://www.e-imagesite.com/Files/161327littlepenis1670755.gif
:D
thopkins22
04-01-09, 21:21
That thread was worth it for the Technical Manual (http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/TM9-1005-319-23.pdf).
Beyond that? Not so much.
ETA: Weak ass post 556.
nope, not going over there to read the thread. uh-uh, not gonna do it...
but just so I'm clear about it, what all the fuss going on is basically a bunch of morons arguing against what is essentially a table of contents?
does that sum it up, roughly???
Joe_Friday
04-01-09, 21:40
Not so much a "table of contents" as a reference guide that was made and put put to assist people for free.
What a bunch of geniuses :rolleyes:
Oh and by the way Rob, Thanks for the chart! If nothing else it sure does stir up a lot $hit on TOS!!!
but remember they are all men who will take out the terrorists at walmart parking lot while you are a pussy and try to protect your family !!!!
its sad that people are that stupid though :(
I liked the comment made that says the chart is suspect because it doesn't include BCM. :rolleyes:
stanlyonjr
04-01-09, 23:57
I liked the comment made that says the chart is suspect because it doesn't include BCM. :rolleyes:
Or maybe 'this chart is to be used for informational purposes by everyone but Ar15.com members who may use it as a measurement of there Johnson's".:eek:
30 cal slut
04-02-09, 07:05
Oh and by the way Rob, Thanks for the chart!
+1.
while it's fun to watch the uproar on the interblab (TOS is certainly not the only site where people will say they "hate the chart and all it stands for") I hope that the industry is paying attention, and incorporating some of the more critical features on the chart (like carrier key staking).
the chart, from a manufacturer's perspective, CAN BE a useful marketing tool. manufacturers want to see how they stack up vs. the competition, and i'm sure they're watching growing consumer awareness of desired features.
Consumer Reports would never have done it. So it's a good thing that Rob Sloyer did. In doing so, he has segmented the market for AR-15 pattern rifles.
what's wrong if more builders increase the number of milspec features in their products as a result of The Chart? i hope that the Chart becomes more inaccurate as each day passes, with more X's filling the right side of the table.
we all win when that happens.
30 cal slut
04-02-09, 07:17
i'll post this and shut up:
QUALITY:
Strict and consistent adherence to measurable and verifiable standards to achieve uniformity of output that satisfies specific customer or user requirements.
Gutshot John
04-02-09, 07:22
I'd bet that most of those people haven't been shooting ARs for more than a few months and so their whole perspective/understanding of ARs has been limited. They're like goldfish...no short-term memory so they think current conditions have existed forever and will exist forever.
I think one guy talked about the prices were wrong (Colts for $1350) not realizing that prices have significantly gone up since November...and that the chart may indeed (and does) predate November by a period of years.
I'm not knocking the other site at all, but there is no comparison between the levels of knowledge between the two. The mentality demonstrated by that thread reaffirms my decision to never go or post there.
FWIW, I have no intention of updating the costs until prices stabilize. I assume they are going to stabilize higher, but eventually they will stabilize one way or the other. Trying to track them right now is too much of a moving target.
In fact, I think I'm going to hide that row for the time being.
Gutshot John
04-02-09, 07:37
FWIW, I have no intention of updating the costs until prices stabilize.
I hope it didn't seem that I was suggesting that. I agree that there is little point in updating prices until things are stable.
I was pointing out that it was a chickens#!t complaint and that if you've been shooting ARs for a while you recognize that the market is in a state of upheaval.
No, I actually think it's a valid complaint. It's a bullshit way to discredit something, but it's a valid complaint.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-02-09, 08:03
No, I actually think it's a valid complaint. It's a bullshit way to discredit something, but it's a valid complaint.
I'd love to see some of our politicians show such insight when they attack each other about minuta concerning the big problems today.
RobS, chart guy and philosopher.
Never really looked at that site before and now I'm glad I didn't... sounds like a bunch of 12 year old girls whining and bitching that they bought the wrong Barbie doll!
I've been watching parts of that site slowly sink into the abyss for years. There are still reasons for me to go there - some of the other forum sections, the local stuff, and, of course, pictures of new stuff.
But generally speaking, while I am not and have never been a Colt fanboy, the anti-Colt ranting served as a warning, prompting me to spend most of my time elsewhere. One day I realized that I had not visited in a year or two, and went back to find stuff like this:
"Just what the hell makes a LaRue rail cost so much more than UTG anyways?"
"Where can I get a fake silencer?"
"Where can I find a good, durable red dot for under $50?"
"Aimpoints are overpriced crap, and all you guys who hate Leapers are just snobs"
.. and so on. That just confirmed my previous opinion. There is good info here and there, and a lot of moderators here and on other respected forums are mods there as well... but it is increasingly hard to separate out the junk. I suppose it serves a purpose, by giving them a place to congregate.
And it all comes down to mindset. If you purchased an AR for punching paper or photo ops then I really have to wonder where your head is. Every weapon I have serves one purpose first- PUTTING ROUNDS DOWN RANGE on someone or thing. The only one that doesn't fit that role is the Ruger 10/22.
Indeed.
It's sort of funny; despite all the mall-ninjaesque fantasies and chest thumping flying around (come on, who doesn't want to cap some zombies!), many of those same people buy cheap junk and then start foaming at the mouth about "you'll never shoot anything but paper" when you point that out... They're fundamentally not serious about it, they have an AR with rails and doodads so they can show it off and try to look badass.
Gosh I love these threads. I am ALWAYS amazed at how much people do not get or understand about the chart.
Here are the simple truths:
1. The chart is NOT saying your AR sucks.
2. You do not have to sell your AR if it does not do well on the chart.
3. Yes, the TDP calls out proper staking of things.
4. No the chart was not written for Colt.
5. The TDP is the lowest standard allowable for a fighting tool.
6. The Chart only shows COMPLETE weapons (not uppers).
7. Manufacturers that do NOT consistently stake their gas keys and castle nuts do not get a check mark in those boxes.
8. Black extractor inserts are not all the same! Most companies (LIKE RRA), simply get blue extractor inserts (read softer) in black. They do not have the same density as say an LMT or BCM black extractor insert!
9. If you use your AR to shoot dirt and impress your brother-in-law at Christmas, pay NO ATTENTION to the chart.
C4
Gosh I love these threads. I am ALWAYS amazed at how much people do not get or understand about the chart.
Here are the simple truths:
1. The chart is NOT saying your AR sucks.
2. You do not have to sell your AR if it does not do well on the chart.
3. Yes, the TDP calls out proper staking of things.
4. No the chart was not written for Colt.
5. The TDP is the lowest standard allowable for a fighting tool.
6. The Chart only shows COMPLETE weapons (not just uppers).
7. Manufacturers that do NOT consistently stake their gas keys and castle nuts do not get a check mark in those boxes.
8. Black extractor inserts are not the same! Most companies (LIKE RRA), simply get blue extractor inserts (read softer) in black. They do not have the same density as say an LMT or BCM black extractor insert!
9. If you use your AR to shoot dirt and impress your brothe-in-law at Christmas, pay NO ATTENTION to the chart.
C4
Grant,
I wish you would have told me this before selling me two 6920's, 3 LMT lowers, and 2 LMT uppers ;)
stanlyonjr
04-02-09, 12:59
Gosh I love these threads. I am ALWAYS amazed at how much people do not get or understand about the chart.
Here are the simple truths:
1. The chart is NOT saying your AR sucks.
2. You do not have to sell your AR if it does not do well on the chart.
3. Yes, the TDP calls out proper staking of things.
4. No the chart was not written for Colt.
5. The TDP is the lowest standard allowable for a fighting tool.
6. The Chart only shows COMPLETE weapons (not just uppers).
7. Manufacturers that do NOT consistently stake their gas keys and castle nuts do not get a check mark in those boxes.
8. Black extractor inserts are not the same! Most companies (LIKE RRA), simply get blue extractor inserts (read softer) in black. They do not have the same density as say an LMT or BCM black extractor insert!
9. If you use your AR to shoot dirt and impress your brothe-in-law at Christmas, pay NO ATTENTION to the chart.
C4
+1 !!!
decodeddiesel
04-02-09, 13:17
Your AR sucks. LOL...
Gosh I love these threads. I am ALWAYS amazed at how much people do not get or understand about the chart.
Here are the simple truths:
1. The chart is NOT saying your AR sucks.
2. You do not have to sell your AR if it does not do well on the chart.
3. Yes, the TDP calls out proper staking of things.
4. No the chart was not written for Colt.
5. The TDP is the lowest standard allowable for a fighting tool.
6. The Chart only shows COMPLETE weapons (not just uppers).
7. Manufacturers that do NOT consistently stake their gas keys and castle nuts do not get a check mark in those boxes.
8. Black extractor inserts are not the same! Most companies (LIKE RRA), simply get blue extractor inserts (read softer) in black. They do not have the same density as say an LMT or BCM black extractor insert!
9. If you use your AR to shoot dirt and impress your brothe-in-law at Christmas, pay NO ATTENTION to the chart.
C4
Good post.Rob should put this as a side note on the Chart.:D
My AR sucks. It's OK, I am good with it.
Anyone want to trade 3 brand X clones of mine for a LMT or DD?
Just kidding, I won't trade my brand X AR's for anything, I love each one of them!.... I'll just go buy another one, like a DD or LMT!
I don't think I'll ever buy a colt....for some reason, I see the DDM4 as being pretty nicely set up with all the Lariet options added... but for the price of the XLT. (I'm talking Ford Superduty truck option packages...lol). So for a bit more than a Colt, I wait until I have the cash and they are available... and I grab up a DDM4! I have 3 XL models with rubber floor mats and hand crank windows...(Stag, Bush and CDD D-M4), next one is going to be a show piece.
I was ready to buy a Stag 2T on the recommendation of a employee at a local gun shop. I found this site and took a long look at "the chart." Found and bought an LMT Defender instead. Thanks for the chart/tool which helped me make a more informed purchase Rob.
parishioner
04-02-09, 15:41
I was ready to buy a Stag 2T on the recommendation of a employee at a local gun shop. I found this site and took a long look at "the chart." Found and bought an LMT Defender instead. Thanks for the chart/tool which helped me make a more informed purchase Rob.
Yea, I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of people complaining about the chart saw the chart after they bought their AR.
Not so much a "table of contents" as a reference guide that was made and put put to assist people for free.
What a bunch of geniuses :rolleyes:
Oh and by the way Rob, Thanks for the chart! If nothing else it sure does stir up a lot $hit on TOS!!!
I know what the chart is. but arguing about it is about as rational as looking at the side of a food jar and arguing with the table of contents.
it's not about judgments or recommendations, it's just a list of what is there. that was my point.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-02-09, 16:55
+1.
while it's fun to watch the uproar on the interblab (TOS is certainly not the only site where people will say they "hate the chart and all it stands for") I hope that the industry is paying attention, and incorporating some of the more critical features on the chart (like carrier key staking).
the chart, from a manufacturer's perspective, CAN BE a useful marketing tool. manufacturers want to see how they stack up vs. the competition, and i'm sure they're watching growing consumer awareness of desired features.
what's wrong if more builders increase the number of milspec features in their products as a result of The Chart? i hope that the Chart becomes more inaccurate as each day passes, with more X's filling the right side of the table.
we all win when that happens.
I think the Charles Daly M4 rifles are a good example of this. I really don't know much about CD, but it seemed to have an odd brand position, kind of cheap stuff- just got that as a feeling from reading about them. CD is brand new to ARs and it seems like more than a few people "charted" it and I don't know what their sales numbers are, but people seem to think of it as a credible rifle based on its features. Seems SW adjested features to better cover some of the attributes.
K...
1. went and read TOS thread
2. immediately stabbed myself in the spleen
Thanks guys :cool:
Whole lot of Gumps (forrest Gump :) ) in that thread.
Joe_Friday
04-02-09, 19:46
I know what the chart is. but arguing about it is about as rational as looking at the side of a food jar and arguing with the table of contents.
it's not about judgments or recommendations, it's just a list of what is there. that was my point.
Gotcha. And my "genuises" comment was not directed at you but the multitude of children on TOS that cant admit that they screwed the pooch.
The way that you posted seemed like an honest question. As sarcastic an SOB as I am, some times I miss it when someone else does it.
thopkins22
04-02-09, 20:03
I think the Charles Daly M4 rifles are a good example of this. I really don't know much about CD, but it seemed to have an odd brand position, kind of cheap stuff- just got that as a feeling from reading about them.
Charles Daly in my opinion decided to fill the "lot of gun for the money/best value niche" with their shotgun and handgun lines. That equals imported guns that work pretty well with finish as an afterthought. My truck/hunting shotgun is a CD and it's served well, not Benelli well, but considering the price....
The thing is that once you start talking ARs, a lot of the steps that companies skip or alter to save money are pretty cheap steps, yet can make a large difference in the end result. So in order to fill that same niche of a lot of gun for the money in the AR market, you have to produce a relatively high quality weapon.
Given the price difference between one of the higher quality brands and a lesser brand, and the products they each offer, the value lies with the better guns.
I think the Charles Daly M4 rifles are a good example of this. I really don't know much about CD, but it seemed to have an odd brand position, kind of cheap stuff- just got that as a feeling from reading about them.Charles Daly in my opinion decided to fill the "lot of gun for the money/best value niche" with their shotgun and handgun lines. That equals imported guns that work pretty well with finish as an afterthought. My truck/hunting shotgun is a CD and it's served well, not Benelli well, but considering the price....
The thing is that once you start talking ARs, a lot of the steps that companies skip or alter to save money are pretty cheap steps, yet can make a large difference in the end result. So in order to fill that same niche of a lot of gun for the money in the AR market, you have to produce a relatively high quality weapon.
Given the price difference between one of the higher quality brands and a lesser brand, and the products they each offer, the value lies with the better guns.
I believe its a case where Charles Daly Defense has tried to differentiate its self from Charles Daly in that it appears that they are going for the most bang for the buck by listening to the end user community and then doing what they can to produce the weapons with as many of the features and quality control as is possible for the price point that the buyers desire.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-03-09, 12:22
I believe its a case where Charles Daly Defense has tried to differentiate its self from Charles Daly in that it appears that they are going for the most bang for the buck by listening to the end user community and then doing what they can to produce the weapons with as many of the features and quality control as is possible for the price point that the buyers desire.
I wonder if they did a lot of research, or just read the threads here.
I wonder if they did a lot of research, or just read the threads here.
Reading all the pertinent threads at M4C is doing a lot of research ...
30 cal slut
04-03-09, 12:34
re: Charles Daly.
Threads like this one
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=328468
say a lot about a manufacturer.
In this particular case, a manufacturer who is actively soliciting feedback on an open internet forum.
http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/DPMS.jpg
Fantastic chart 87GN. Hopefully this will put everything to reast.;)
http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/DPMS.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8793/bowrofl.gif (http://img4.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bowrofl.gif)
Joe_Friday
04-04-09, 13:54
The sad part of this is that they have seven pages talking about the chart and we have six pages talking about them, talking about the chart.
The sad part of this is that they have seven pages talking about the chart and we have six pages talking about them, talking about the chart.
You're right, that is sad.
They're winning! More posts ... MORE POSTS!!!!
Bottom feeding losers over there.
They wonder why every switched on person over has pulled out of there.
FWIW, I have no intention of updating the costs until prices stabilize. I assume they are going to stabilize higher, but eventually they will stabilize one way or the other. Trying to track them right now is too much of a moving target.
In fact, I think I'm going to hide that row for the time being.
I'd leave the prices on the chart as they are still relative.
I'd leave the prices on the chart as they are still relative.
IMHO, as long as the prices fail to reflect current reality it gives credence to those who suggest the rest of the info isn't up to date or complete. The smartest thing is probably just to remove the price info altogether for the time being, as suggested.
stanlyonjr
04-04-09, 15:41
I think I picked the right AR-15 forum. Its a chart. Take the information you need and make an INFORMED decision when you buy. Looking anything deeper into it than that and your wasting brain cells.:p
Failure2Stop
04-04-09, 16:03
"I hate the chart and all it stands for."
:confused:
Uh, let's see, what does it stand for anyway?
Consistency?
Adherance to standard?
Factual information based on actual research?
Freely given information?
"I hate the chart and all it stands for."
Well scooter, I don't like asshats. Fair enough?
But really, is it too much to ask to not link to that site for at least another year? Really, every time I read more than five posts I get a throbbing headache and a strong desire to burn things.
When i first started researching AR's a couple years ago i came across "the chart".The arguments(if you could call them that) from those who bitched about it and/or dismissed it did more to convince me of its worth than anything else.
As far as "TOS" in general...
Im sure there are plenty of guys over there more knowledgable than myself.But who wants to wade through that garbage to find out?The only place i visit over there is the manufacturers/dealers sections.For possible news/tidbits direct from the source.I have an account and a few posts over there...dont even remember my user name or password now though.
IMHO, as long as the prices fail to reflect current reality it gives credence to those who suggest the rest of the info isn't up to date or complete. The smartest thing is probably just to remove the price info altogether for the time being, as suggested.
Yeah, I guess so if they are going to call the whole thing into question.
Yea, I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of people complaining about the chart saw the chart after they bought their AR.
Very true.
You are never going to convince people who, I guess, believe things because of some emotional investment, rather than based on facts.
It's like trying to convince people who already know they are wrong, that they are wrong, but argue for the sake of emotion.
This sight is a no bull shit sight when it comes to quality gear, know that when you come here and screw your feelings.
If it was any other way, there would be no reason for me to be here.
I have nothing substantive to post here really, other than allot of thank you's to all the people who have spent untold amounts of money and time, and who share all that info for free so I can make good decisions when I spend my time and money.
So to Rob, Grant, and all the other's, Thank you.
Terry.
Frankly, I am shocked that some have spent 6 pages analyzing why those fools think the way they do over there.
Could not possibly give less of a shit.
You're right, that is sad.
They're winning! More posts ... MORE POSTS!!!!
Okay :D
Some of the people at BARF.COM make me want to smack their heads against a wall until my headache stops. I am currently trying to convince one guy that his Aimpoint QRP Mount without Spacer is not an Absolute Co-Witness and that it is not a 1/3 Co-Witness with a Spacer. Another "errornet commando" thinks the same thing with the factory CompM4 mount. Grrrrrrrrrrr.....
S/F
I think deleting the prices would be a good idea for now.
BTW did you ever get your hands on the DD rifle?
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