View Full Version : Colt Armorers Course
strongisland
04-01-09, 11:26
For those who have taken this course I would like to know your opinion on the course, likes and dislikes or if you know someone who has taken the course what do they think. I have an opportunity to snag a spot in one of the upcoming classes and wanted a little background beforehand.
Thanks in advance,
Milt
What they presented was MOSTLY good, solid information. Covers rifle, carbine and subgun. Unfortunately they left out some information I thought would be useful. I can't remember how many times we stripped down the rear sight to all the bits and pieces (something I don't really anticipate ever having to do).
The bad: - they say they recommend against ever removing or replacing the barrel.
- If the gas key comes loose retorque with red loctite. no mention of staking.
I also grew weary of the "Every rifle and every 1911 ever made that is not Colt is complete rubbish. No exceptions."
Alaskapopo
04-01-09, 13:31
What they presented was MOSTLY good, solid information. Covers rifle, carbine and subgun. Unfortunately they left out some information I thought would be useful. I can't remember how many times we stripped down the rear sight to all the bits and pieces (something I don't really anticipate ever having to do).
The bad: - they say they recommend against ever removing or replacing the barrel.
- If the gas key comes loose retorque with red loctite. no mention of staking.
I also grew weary of the "Every rifle and every 1911 ever made that is not Colt is complete rubbish. No exceptions."
+1
They had be scared to replace a barrel. Good class overall but dogged on anything not Colt. The instructor even cracked on Wilson Combat in the Colt 1911 Class I took.
Pat
I have taken the course a few times and I recommend highly if you want to actually learn something about your musket. As for the bagging on the competition.....when you still see crap like BM, DPMS, over-priced Wilson Combat rifles and carbines out there screwing up, I don't blame 'em.
Alaskapopo
04-01-09, 16:19
I have taken the course a few times and I recommend highly if you want to actually learn something about your musket. As for the bagging on the competition.....when you still see crap like BM, DPMS, over-priced Wilson Combat rifles and carbines out there screwing up, I don't blame 'em.
Ken Elmore is especially good.
Pat
Definately should go if you can. I've been twice over the years. Kind of cool working on the sub-gun, had never had my hands on one till class. I agree with the above though, they slam anything not Colt. They definately shy away f/ barrel changes. We blazed over headspacing also, they did not feel it was important. I agree its not as important as a bolt rifle, but still think its a factor.
I did one of them with Ken, the other with Mike Heath. Don't remember the other time.
Ken Elmore is especially good.
Pat
Headspace is probably the easiest thing on the weapon. Changing out a lower receiver extension is harder. One needs only follow the simple steps and have the right tools.
Definately should go if you can. I've been twice over the years. Kind of cool working on the sub-gun, had never had my hands on one till class. I agree with the above though, they slam anything not Colt. They definately shy away f/ barrel changes. We blazed over headspacing also, they did not feel it was important. I agree its not as important as a bolt rifle, but still think its a factor.
strongisland,
I took Ken's course in January and highly recommend it. Since Ken left Colt, he's now free to slam Colt when they deserve it as well as anyone else (and he does). Because of this I would recommend going to the SA course instead of the Colt. The material is the same as what the Colt course has. A quote from Ken "everything is crap until proven otherwise." He will give you the no B.S. answer to your questions.
strongisland, the course is great. I'm not sure what your experience or background is. But, the course is a chance to learn the basics and learn how to do things "right." You will get a lot of hands on experience detail stripping guns. If you learn from a friend, out of a book or off of the internet, you run the risk of doing things the wrong way and probably not realizing it until it's too late.
But that being said, the "right" way (as taught in these types of courses) is not always the best way. There are a lot of people that have better ways to do things, and they have all sorts of tricks and insight. But there are a LOT more people who think they know what they're doing and don't!
I think of factory trained armorers as factory certified car mechanics. It's always a safe bet to take your car to the car dealership and have it worked on by factory certified mechaincs. But, in my opinion, the best mechanics are often not factory certified. I feel the same way about people who work on guns.
Along those lines, understand that armorer courses are not gunsmith courses. You'll learn a lot about problem diagnosis and factory parts replacement. But, you won't learn the fancy stuff. You also won't learn about the common non-factory parts and accessories that are on the market. But just knowing the basics and knowing how to do things right will put you ahead of 99.99% of the gun people out there.
Joe Mamma
strongisland
04-02-09, 11:46
The course instructor is Mike Heath. Any feedback on his classes?
Mike is GTG and you will enjoy his course. Oh yeah, see above.
The course instructor is Mike Heath. Any feedback on his classes?
Ha Ha yes. He is a Marine and he WANTS YOU TO KNOW IT!! He knows his business inside and out. Kept my attention very well. I recommend him as an instructor.
p.s. He carries a vintage WWII era Colt .45 (when he can) and there is no reason to carry anything else or change anything about it. I have a Kimber TLE II for a range gun and just to mess with him I carried it to class one day. Hilarity ensued.
The course instructor is Mike Heath. Any feedback on his classes?
He's excellent and very funny.
Joe Mamma
I would recommend doing the course with Dean Caputo. He covers everything including staking the BCG and reaming the chamber with tools made by Ned Christiansen. Dean is also entertaining as well.
In Colt's training the potential for good course content was there, but certain important elements are glossed over while other, less vital ones are covered ad nauseum.
For example, we were [I]shown barrel removal/installation being accomplished once as the final day wrapped up, with no mention of headspace checking procedures. On the other hand, we completely disassembled/reassembled the A2 rear sight a countless number of times.
If your outfit primarily uses optics all that practice on this sight was wasted after about the third trip. It's good to have some hands on time with this, but being capable of performing this in your sleep isn't required in most of the student's real world.
Considering the tuition they're charging, I'd also expect Colt to have their act much more together as far as equipment is concerned.
To give you an idea, many of the tool kits used were missing necessary items. Students were constantly having to wait for others to finish and pass tools from table to table due to shortages.
It's understandable that the rifles used are so loose as to be unrealistic when compared with what the students will be dealing with in the field, but having bolt catches held on by firing pin retaining pins as a shortcut was a bit much. In other words, students received zero practice in their realisitc removal/installation. Somehow, one rifle we used even had a Bushmaster upper.
Alongside other manufacturer's armorer schools I'd say instructor experience, knowledge and dedication was good. Someone just getting into working on the AR/M16 can learn a lot from them, but IMHO course structure/content and [especially] factory support for this program is lacking.
I've heard nothing but good about Ken Elmore's schools at SA. Their offering of both basic and advanced armorer training also sounds good for new gun techs. First learn to walk, take a few trips around the block, then learn to run.
IIRC the criticisms you speak of have been the same for the last few years. The impression that I got is that Colt Management doesn't see the need to replace worn parts with good ones to make the point. I definitely agree that they need to hit on the re-barrel thing because in this day and age. They should have covered the headspace issue as well. Another thing that would be good is more troubleshooting stuff.
I plan on taking Ken's advanced course whenever I end up back home.
In Colt's training the potential for good course content was there, but certain important elements are glossed over while other, less vital ones are covered ad nauseum.
For example, we were [I]shown barrel removal/installation being accomplished once as the final day wrapped up, with no mention of headspace checking procedures. On the other hand, we completely disassembled/reassembled the A2 rear sight a countless number of times.
If your outfit primarily uses optics all that practice on this sight was wasted after about the third trip. It's good to have some hands on time with this, but being capable of performing this in your sleep isn't required in most of the student's real world.
Considering the tuition they're charging, I'd also expect Colt to have their act much more together as far as equipment is concerned.
To give you an idea, many of the tool kits used were missing necessary items. Students were constantly having to wait for others to finish and pass tools from table to table due to shortages.
It's understandable that the rifles used are so loose as to be unrealistic when compared with what the students will be dealing with in the field, but having bolt catches held on by firing pin retaining pins as a shortcut was a bit much. In other words, students received zero practice in their realisitc removal/installation. Somehow, one rifle we used even had a Bushmaster upper.
Alongside other manufacturer's armorer schools I'd say instructor experience, knowledge and dedication was good. Someone just getting into working on the AR/M16 can learn a lot from them, but IMHO course structure/content and [especially] factory support for this program is lacking.
I've heard nothing but good about Ken Elmore's schools at SA. Their offering of both basic and advanced armorer training also sounds good for new gun techs. First learn to walk, take a few trips around the block, then learn to run.
I took it from Ken a few years ago, and thought it was good, but would be better had we gone over removing/installing barrels.
As mentioned it is a good class, especially if it is your first one. You will learn a lot. Since we are issued Colts we pretty much only attend the Colt class. Liability wise we are required to keep our certs updated since the Colt certs require a re-cert every 3 years. I have been to Ken's class and twice with Bob Gawe. Also from the Colt class you get the option to buy certain Colt weapons at a discounted price upon completion of the course.
In Colt's training the potential for good course content was there, but certain important elements are glossed over while other, less vital ones are covered ad nauseum.
For example, we were [I]shown barrel removal/installation being accomplished once as the final day wrapped up, with no mention of headspace checking procedures. On the other hand, we completely disassembled/reassembled the A2 rear sight a countless number of times.
If your outfit primarily uses optics all that practice on this sight was wasted after about the third trip. It's good to have some hands on time with this, but being capable of performing this in your sleep isn't required in most of the student's real world.
Considering the tuition they're charging, I'd also expect Colt to have their act much more together as far as equipment is concerned.
To give you an idea, many of the tool kits used were missing necessary items. Students were constantly having to wait for others to finish and pass tools from table to table due to shortages.
It's understandable that the rifles used are so loose as to be unrealistic when compared with what the students will be dealing with in the field, but having bolt catches held on by firing pin retaining pins as a shortcut was a bit much. In other words, students received zero practice in their realisitc removal/installation. Somehow, one rifle we used even had a Bushmaster upper.
Alongside other manufacturer's armorer schools I'd say instructor experience, knowledge and dedication was good. Someone just getting into working on the AR/M16 can learn a lot from them, but IMHO course structure/content and [especially] factory support for this program is lacking.
I've heard nothing but good about Ken Elmore's schools at SA. Their offering of both basic and advanced armorer training also sounds good for new gun techs. First learn to walk, take a few trips around the block, then learn to run.
I agree the amount of time spent on the A2 sight is crazy and I have still never touched one outside of class. Much more time needs to be spent on the rebarrel and Colt needs to get away from the "its too hard" approach.
IIRC the criticisms you speak of have been the same for the last few years. The impression that I got is that Colt Management doesn't see the need to replace worn parts with good ones to make the point. I definitely agree that they need to hit on the re-barrel thing because in this day and age. They should have covered the headspace issue as well. Another thing that would be good is more troubleshooting stuff.
I plan on taking Ken's advanced course whenever I end up back home.
Let me know I will go with you.
Ive been searching the i-net for a while and this site but havent found any answers to my question which is, does ANYBODY know a M16/M4 Armorers Course available to civs ?? I'm what you would call a tinkerer and like to know my tools inside and out and how to fix/trouble shoot/replace parts, but every course ive found is only LE/Gov't/Military only, any info appreciated
Contact Greg Sullivan (SULLY) at Defensive Edge
http://www.slr15.com/
I believe that the Bushmaster Armorer Course is an open one. IIRC the rationale behind restricting who can attend had to do with liabilty. They don't want some Fudd tinkereing with his weapon, he gets injured or causes an injury and they then get sued.
Ive been searching the i-net for a while and this site but havent found any answers to my question which is, does ANYBODY know a M16/M4 Armorers Course available to civs ?? I'm what you would call a tinkerer and like to know my tools inside and out and how to fix/trouble shoot/replace parts, but every course ive found is only LE/Gov't/Military only, any info appreciated
30 cal slut
05-12-09, 10:58
They don't want some Fudd tinkereing with his weapon, he gets injured or causes an injury and they then get sued.
that's okay, some of us fall under the "mall ninja" category, so they have no reason to worry.
I would recommend doing the course with Dean Caputo. He covers everything including staking the BCG and reaming the chamber with tools made by Ned Christiansen. Dean is also entertaining as well.
I second that. He, too, avoided barrel replacement though I've done it with the proper tools years ago.
I second that. He, too, avoided barrel replacement though I've done it with the proper tools years ago.
When I did the course last year, DC did demonstrate (with a loose barrel) removing and re-installing the barrel but it was quite difficult in doing so without a bench vise. He picked two biggest guys in the class to hold it down. He explained it IS very difficult to remove to the point where his entire body was virtually off the floor. So for those expecting to remove and re-install a barrel in an armorer course, don't be disappointed if this is not done for this reason.
thanks for the info guys, ill look into them
The Colt AC is a basic, entry-level, Colt-centric, course for Colt customers. It's geared toward those who will maintain factory produced guns in a LE setting. The overwhelming majority of LE maintainers take care of a relatively few guns that remain in service a long time. As usual, they're usually used little, but beat around much in that time. Maintenance tasks are focused there. When buying a factory built Colt rifle/carbine for LE service, there's little to no need to ever remove the barrel. It isn't rocket science of course, but it isn't legos, either.
To that end, the AC accomplishes what it sets out to do and meets the needs of the target audience.
More important than rebarreling is what's also missing from the Colt AC: better instruction in diagnostics and PM. The course hasn't evolved from the core basic parts assembly and interaction as much as it should. Some instructors do more than others. Some of this is attributable to it being Colt-centric. There isn't as compelling a need to delve into all the minutiae as with others, as there will be comparatively fewer issues than with good-as.
I've always felt that the current curriculum could be compressed down to 2 days for the information that is taught. If the AC was broken out into "Semi-Auto LE Carbine", and then select-fire variants, it could be an 8 hour day each.
The equipment... Even the instructors are critical of the factory failure to maintain the tool sets, keeping guns that disassemble themselves, the low tech text-based manuals, and the other stuff folks have complained about.
Students share some responsibility here too.
Many do no homework in advance before enrolling in a class, establish no context or perspective for the class, and not expectedly, leave disappointed with their expectations unfulfilled. Requesting advanced copies of curriculum to review, or talking to previous course coordinators, to review is a foreign concept to most. Some will make the effort to come to the internet to get their info, which will range from excellent to worthless.
Also, in every class, students are handed critique forms with which to provide feedback to course managers. Having read through a number of them, few do anything but check "Good" or "Excellent." Getting meaningul contemplative feedback is pretty rare. How many have ever called the head of a training division or VP to discuss their feedback? If folks went to the effort to tell the factory what they tell the internet in the AARs they post, we might see better courses.
Further, let's be realistic about ourselves and fellow students. The AC is a basic class geared to the lowest-common-denominator LE maintainer of Colt product. The classes won't be populated with a majority of HSLD, or even above average folks, they'll be mostly plain joe part-changers. The bar is low, and the class is designed to be passed. Telling many of them "don't do that, don't mess with that, you don't need to do that" might be the best advice they can receive. If using the house brand, it's often true, too.
All this isn't to condemn or defend the AC, but it is what it is. Shop smart for your training, and as always, caveat emptor. Folks like Dean Caputo, Sully, and others have developed their own programs to meet the needs of others. Take every course you can.
Well said, Skintop911.
IMO, the scope of the Colt AC is to cover 90% of the info that 90% of the users are going to see 90% of the time.
The problem I experienced was that there was a lot of time spent covering things such as differences between specific Colt models that could have been spent covering other things. If I want to know what model uses what pins, either I'll look at one, or I'll pull the manual on it.
From the AARs that I've read, Dean's class is briefer and he teaches what he thinks guys REALLY need to know. He does accept non-LE/Mil students if the hosting agency allows.
When I took the AC from Ken, he was considering an advanced class that addressed barrels, and lots and lots of atypical stoppages.
As to typical stoppages, the typical causes and remedies were covered:
-Faulty ammo
-Faulty mags
-Incorrect extractor springs and inserts
-loose carrier keys (not a problem for makers that follow the TDP - hint, hint)
It is true that these are the usual causes of the typical stoppages.
As to barrel removal/install, I would have liked the AC to cover this, but it was beyond the scope of the class.
However, there are many resources outside of the class available to all that address this.
And, IIRC, if you buy a barrel from SAW, Ken will install it at no cost (it's been about 4 yrs now, so this may have changed).
Sff,
I agree with alot of what you said. I had some of the same critiques about knowing all the different models and pin sizes. Since you should be using a manual of some type anyways when doing repairs (at least in the .MIL world) taking an extra minute to look at models and pin sizes, etc....is no big deal.
Barrel instal and removal is important as is a more in-depth diagnosis and troubleshooting portion of the class.
Well said, Skintop911.
IMO, the scope of the Colt AC is to cover 90% of the info that 90% of the users are going to see 90% of the time.
The problem I experienced was that there was a lot of time spent covering things such as differences between specific Colt models that could have been spent covering other things. If I want to know what model uses what pins, either I'll look at one, or I'll pull the manual on it.
From the AARs that I've read, Dean's class is briefer and he teaches what he thinks guys REALLY need to know. He does accept non-LE/Mil students if the hosting agency allows.
When I took the AC from Ken, he was considering an advanced class that addressed barrels, and lots and lots of atypical stoppages.
As to typical stoppages, the typical causes and remedies were covered:
-Faulty ammo
-Faulty mags
-Incorrect extractor springs and inserts
-loose carrier keys (not a problem for makers that follow the TDP - hint, hint)
It is true that these are the usual causes of the typical stoppages.
As to barrel removal/install, I would have liked the AC to cover this, but it was beyond the scope of the class.
However, there are many resources outside of the class available to all that address this.
And, IIRC, if you buy a barrel from SAW, Ken will install it at no cost (it's been about 4 yrs now, so this may have changed).
Does anyone know which agencies are open to civilian attendees? I'd prefer to take it with Elmore, and I'm not worried about getting his permission as we have mutual friends who can speak to my character. But I need to talk my way in with the host.
glockshooter
01-01-11, 04:29
I just completed the USTC (Blackwater) AR15/M16 armorers course. It is open to LE, mil, and civilians. It was a good course but it pretty much had the same short comings as the Colt course. I was disappointed in the barrel replacement section.
Matt
As far as I know if Ken approves you, you are GTG. Is that what you wanted to know?
Does anyone know which agencies are open to civilian attendees? I'd prefer to take it with Elmore, and I'm not worried about getting his permission as we have mutual friends who can speak to my character. But I need to talk my way in with the host.
Robb Jensen
01-01-11, 12:30
I just completed the USTC (Blackwater) AR15/M16 armorers course. It is open to LE, mil, and civilians. It was a good course but it pretty much had the same short comings as the Colt course. I was disappointed in the barrel replacement section.
Matt
The US Training Center one is quite good. Charlie and Eric at USTC are excellent instructors. An Armorers course isn't a gunsmithing course. Many LE dept armorers don't even change barrels, many just buy barreled uppers. A few local depts here in NoVA have had me work on their rifles. I think mostly because even though they have armorers most don't know what they're doing.
The US Training Center AR15/M16 Armorers course is far better than the Bushmaster Armorers course. I think many of these courses don't teach barrel replacement because of liabilities etc and because of the many different types of rails, barrel nuts etc. This is one of those things that would probably require another 1/2 to a full day in class to cover all the methods and barrel nut types etc.
Look how many types of barrel wrenches I have....in that drawer: DPMS, Smith Enterprise, Daniel Defense AR15 Lite Rail / 762 Lite Rail, PRI for 5.56 and 7.62, VLTOR, Colt 6940, FF-Bloop Tube, YHM, AR10, KAC SR25, USGI pre-A1 and A1/A2, Troy TRX.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Troywrench2.jpg
Robb I think you and I would get along extremely well as neighbors.
Another board member here, Reed503, and I took the Colt AR15/M16 Armorer's course this past November at the Kansas Law Enforcement Training Center in Hutchinson, Ks.
Really nothing has changed information wise regarding the course we took compared to what was posted a year ago in this thread. Like the others barrel work was only very briefly touched on the last day. It was more of an afterthought than a teaching portion of the class.
The guns were a mixture. M16A2's, M4's, 9mm smg's. I managed to keep the same M4 for each day of the class. Most all of them were well worn to the point pins would fall out. In fact the gun I had appeared to have never been fired. Despite that it was not what I'd really consider serviceable due to the way it had been taken apart over time. Also probably just the number of times.
Someone posted prior about a lot of attendees are lower common denominator parts changers, or something like that, and he's spot on. The rough condition of the poor carbine I had showed that numerous people prior to me had literally beaten the gun to death installing and removing pins. It was clear that more than once someone hadn't even attempted to center a punch correctly before they started hammering. Hell the main pin hole on the A2 sight was broken out.
Which reminds me. The A2 assembly was covered well beyond significantly.
I feel like I was at a distinct advantage over most of the other class members. The reason I feel that way was primarily because of this website and what I'll refer to as "the old TOS" from years back before they went AWOL on common sense. The technical information that's been provided here was invaluable to providing a foundation for me on the schooling at KLETC. I was fortunate to have years of building, headspacing, and barreling AR's under my belt as well.
As is evident in previous postings here they do still compare Colt's quality and parts to other makers and vendors. The instructor related one story of repairing a dept. gun that was brought to class by removing a part from Bushmaster and replacing a Colt part. Unfortunately I don't recall the part in question. But the story rings back after seeing the similar comments here.
They did cover headspacing in the class but limited it primarily to use of the FIELD gauge. They touched on a barrel straightness gauge. Ironic since the gun he randomly picked up in class failed the test when he dropped the rod down it.
Yes there was a bit of missing tools to pick from but it's easy to share with your neighbor at your table. Speaking of tools. If you go to this class expecting to see the plethora of specific task related tools that we're used to seeing written about, sold, and used here you'll be surprised. In fact the entire class time working and taking the guns apart was done with the most basic of hand tools. Small hammer, punches, etc. The only task specific tools I recall were the ejector removal tool for the bolt and the pin installation and removal tool for the front take down pin retaining pin. Compared to the work time spent on the A2 sight we only removed the ejector one time during the course.
Some small notations that take me back to information on this site compared to the actual class.
The instructor had never seen or heard of a MOACK's tool. I showed him mine out of my tool kit during a break. He did seem impressed with it.
At one point he informed the class to buy HK magazines as they are the most reliable magazine available for the AR/M15 weapons. During a break I visited with him about the HK mags history and he'd never heard of any problems with them.
The "that guys" in the class. Yes, you'll likely meet them. We had one guy that went on and on to everyone about every gun on Earth he knew about. From how much better his Mini 14 was than the AR series to how a 1911 was the only pistol in the world. Another fellow that almost failed the course. I mention this only as a footnote to the lowest common denominator statement previously. Some departments this really is what you have shoving things down your throat as firearms trainers or armorers.
In closing, take the class if you have an opportunity. There is a lot of great basic fundamentals and information covered. Hands on experience is always invaluable. There was a video presentation taken in the colt factory interviewing workers as well as a history of the weapons back to the beginnings with Armalite.
One note. They are updating the manuals that they give out with the courses in 2011 and they will now cost $50. To reflect that the cost of the LE course is going up $50 for both AR/M16 and 1911 this year. That may give you an idea of something to budget for.
Robb Jensen
01-01-11, 16:20
I've been in a few armorer courses where they allowed non-LE/ non-MIL in, and most of them have been disasters. Glock is a great example of this, they let in just about anyone. Its bad enough that I've got to listen to people on the street with their complaints, but the last thing I want to do is listen to it when I'm stuck next to some guy who doesn't shower and wants to talk over the instructor telling about all the times he almost drew down on someone.
IMHO Glock should do away with the 1 day basic Glock Armorers course it's next to useless. The 2 day Advanced Armorers class is 100 times better. In my class this summer at Smyrna we had 14 students (3 civilians, 1 of which was me). The only guys struggling were the LE guys especially on the 2nd day when every student had to look over 18 different Glocks with various problems that you had to identify what was wrong and describe the fix. Some guns had 1 problem, some had up to 5 problems.
I haven't read all the responses here so please forgive if i dupe some info already posted.
I took the Colt Course with Heath several years ago. This was my first experience in such a course. Heath was entertaining and informative. However later in life, there were things that I realized that weren't covered that I wished had been. Barrel installation, headspacing etc is one such thing. We didn't have bench vices in the class so we were somewhat limited. We also had to memorize a lot of info for the test, model numbers of various AR's and M16's that I didn't think was necessary. I concur with what was stated about dissassembly of the rear sight assembly.
I recently took the S&W AR armorers course a few months ago in Springfield on my Dept's dime. The course was one day shorter and we only worked on Semi Auto Trigger groups. Bench vices were available and we pulled a barrel. still didn't go much into headspacing and such tho. Didn't disassemble the rear sight assembly as the instructor stated that if the assembly went fubar, S&W would just replace the entire carry handle.
overall i learned much from both courses and glad i've attended.
We also had to memorize a lot of info for the test, model numbers of various AR's and M16's that I didn't think was necessary.
It was nothing remotely like that my go around. Roughly ten or so questions and failing wasn't what I'd see as a consideration. The individual I mentioned above with problems was related to doing the physical disassembly of the guns.
The instructor did mention that in his previous class he was forced to fail two individuals. I can't begin to wrap my head around how they could have possibly failed but if they were that bad it was the right choice for him to make. If you can't pass a Colt Armorer's class (Or any other manufacturer) you have no business fiddling with things that people's lives depend on.
As far as I know if Ken approves you, you are GTG. Is that what you wanted to know?
The agency also has to approve. I figured out I'm probably best off having my friend contact Ken and handle it from that direction, he will know who would let me in.
If Ken clears you, I highly doubt that the agency won't. JM2CW.
The agency also has to approve. I figured out I'm probably best off having my friend contact Ken and handle it from that direction, he will know who would let me in.
On the same note, I have seen plenty of LE and MIL personnel who also shouldn't have been in the class because they were slower than molasses.
I've been in a few armorer courses where they allowed non-LE/ non-MIL in, and most of them have been disasters. Glock is a great example of this, they let in just about anyone. Its bad enough that I've got to listen to people on the street with their complaints, but the last thing I want to do is listen to it when I'm stuck next to some guy who doesn't shower and wants to talk over the instructor telling about all the times he almost drew down on someone.
IMHO Glock should do away with the 1 day basic Glock Armorers course it's next to useless. The 2 day Advanced Armorers class is 100 times better. In my class this summer at Smyrna we had 14 students (3 civilians, 1 of which was me). The only guys struggling were the LE guys especially on the 2nd day when every student had to look over 18 different Glocks with various problems that you had to identify what was wrong and describe the fix. Some guns had 1 problem, some had up to 5 problems.
I agree, but the AC serves a purpose. It's for the lowest common denominator LEO who may or may not be a gun guy, or even want to be at the class. The AC is designed and intended to give that LCD the tools to ID a defective gun and correct the most basic and common problems, or to determine it needs to go back to GI.
As you well know, trying to teach that LCD differential diagnostics and maintenance would be a week-long chore in many cases.
I've recerted many times over the years. I like to sit in the back and watch people's eyes glaze over when the instructor talks about 15/5 and 15/0 extractors, 4340 vs. 1882 ejectors, checking engagement, etc. Watching the ham-fisted try to field strip the things can be amusing itself.
One of the problems with the AC over the years is the variability in instructors and content. Some will do an excellent job and leave the student with many times their money's worth. Certain others will sit and watch their ebay auctions, talk about their boats, and watch the clock. Glock has had to refund quite a bit of tuition for a couple of their IW/AC instructors following agency complaints about quality of instruction.
Robb Jensen
01-02-11, 15:22
I agree, but the AC serves a purpose. It's for the lowest common denominator LEO who may or may not be a gun guy, or even want to be at the class. The AC is designed and intended to give that LCD the tools to ID a defective gun and correct the most basic and common problems, or to determine it needs to go back to GI.
As you well know, trying to teach that LCD differential diagnostics and maintenance would be a week-long chore in many cases.
I've recerted many times over the years. I like to sit in the back and watch people's eyes glaze over when the instructor talks about 15/5 and 15/0 extractors, 4340 vs. 1882 ejectors, checking engagement, etc. Watching the ham-fisted try to field strip the things can be amusing itself.
One of the problems with the AC over the years is the variability in instructors and content. Some will do an excellent job and leave the student with many times their money's worth. Certain others will sit and watch their ebay auctions, talk about their boats, and watch the clock. Glock has had to refund quite a bit of tuition for a couple of their IW/AC instructors following agency complaints about quality of instruction.
No doubt. The first Glock instructor I had for the AC course in 2005 talked about his shooting career for about 2.5hrs. Luckily I already knew how to detail strip the gun anyway.
no1ofconsequence
01-03-11, 08:17
The agency also has to approve. I figured out I'm probably best off having my friend contact Ken and handle it from that direction, he will know who would let me in.
FWIW, when I was in one of Ken's classes at Corona P.D. there were civillians in attendance.
They have another one coming up the week of 01/24/11...
Ive been searching the i-net for a while and this site but havent found any answers to my question which is, does ANYBODY know a M16/M4 Armorers Course available to civs ?? I'm what you would call a tinkerer and like to know my tools inside and out and how to fix/trouble shoot/replace parts, but every course ive found is only LE/Gov't/Military only, any info appreciated
There are many courses available on the AR15/M16/M4 weapons system to include a few that I and my staff have been exposed to from Colt, Specialized Armament, S&W, and Bushmaster/Blackwater, all of which have something to offer and if the opportunity presents itself then you should take the course. My personal recommendation is to take as many armorer/armoring courses that you can get to, to include taking courses on the same weapons system and other weapon systems. My first armorer course that my agency sent me to was in 1988, of which exposed me to the internals of weapons and diagnosis of issues, it snowballed my interest from there. Each course and trainer has something to offer, you may find that a certain Instructor or course content may explain of show something a little different of which may help make sense better than another method. My approach is that each particular weapon system is a machine, you will see a lot of the same machining principles repeated in other weapon systems, and once you get exposed to a lot of them you will find that a lot of the same principles start to integrate of which makes diagnosis/trouble-shooting and wear problems become more prevalent to diagnose and repair/replace as necessary. I am fortunate that at my Law Enforcement Job I get exposed to lots of different weapons systems to take care of and diagnose issues, of which provides me my favorites to work on. I have a passion for working on and teaching on the AR15/M16/M4, M14/M1A, Law Enforcement Shotguns (Rem 870, Mossy 500/590, and Benelli M1 series, Glocks, 1911's, and Subguns (MP5, UMP, and SMG's). There are a few weapons systems that I am not a fan of working on, but when tasked I look at them as an opportunity and challenge.
Most often when we teach a Restricted Enrollment it is due to the hosting venue, as some of these courses are in areas of Law Enforcement Agencies where OPSEC may be of concern (example: current warrant information may be posted on the walls etc), we do as many Open Enrollment courses as possible, and the content of the courses are the same. Things that we cover in our standard AR15/M16/M4 course of which we feel are a must is headspace and firing pin protrusion gauging, barrel replacement (everyone has the opportunity do this in class) as we find a lot of barrels are indexed incorrectly of which can be fixed during class plus people want to know how to add free float tubes in this day and age of so many being available. We also spend a lot of time going through the machining on parts like trigger components, this helps people have a basis for diagnosing issues of why a gun doesn't fire or why it may occasionally fire a runaway burst. The advanced version of this course we offer takes things to a whole different level of which people want to have their ducks in a row to attend this, as it is more gunsmithing based with lots of hands on fitting/machining, gauging, casting chambers, locking down and pinning gas blocks/front sight bases and free float tubes (especially ones that have not locking pins), and we spend time on letting people diagnose some not so common malfunctions due to out of spec stuff that is on the edge of actually working.
Again we recommend taking as many armorer/armoring courses as possible, to include Specialized Armament, Dean Caputo's Diagnostics, as many factory courses as you can get into, and don't forget to check out some of the more reputable gunsmithing technical schools across the country, knowledge is a wonderful thing.
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