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Aubrey
04-01-09, 20:34
AFTER-ACTION REPORT: Vickers Tactical 3-Day Pistol Training, 28-30 March 2009

Quinn Ranch Training hosted Larry Vickers (http://www.vickerstactical.com) for a 3-day pistol course on 28-30 March 2009 near Brady, TX. This was a repeat of the same class held at this location in 2008 and incorporated elements of the Vickers Tactical Pistol Basic and Pistol 1 classes, including a low-light segment. The open-enrollment class had 14 students. Student occupations included medics (always comforting on the range), a land surveyor, a pediatric intensive-care physician, a Border Patrol agent, a college professor (retired Army), engineers, a mergers-&-acquisitions executive, a retired detective, and probably a few I missed. Training backgrounds were quite varied and ranged from none to “a lot.” We had a father-and-two-sons trio (very cool).

Fully half of the students were shooting Glocks. There was one H&K (an issued PS2000 if I remember correctly), and the remainder were M&Ps and 1911s. There were very few weapon-related issues. Larry was primarily shooting a Wilson Combat 1911 in 9x19mm, but he also brought along a Smith & Wesson M&P9 to demonstrate the Crimson Trace visible laser module during the low-light segment.

Weather conditions started out cold and windy on the morning of TD1 but were pretty mild for the remainder. I gave my shivering training partner a couple of disposable hand warmers on the first morning, and I was sharing sunscreen on TD3. Spring in Texas can be anything.

There was a large wedding or some such event scheduled for the same weekend making motel-room availability very limited, so the Quinn Ranch made their hunting lodge available to students for a modest fee to cover cleaning and linens. This was a bonus, as it allowed an opportunity to get to know the other students a bit better.

An after-class highlight for me was watching Wayne D give a two-hour how-to-detail-strip-a-Glock demo at the dining table and hear what issues to watch for and how to properly maintain The Universal Pistol. It is a marvel of modern value engineering. “There’s nothing on this pistol you can’t fix in three minutes.” He proved in on TD3 when a G19 lost its slide-lock spring during the final evaluation. Wayne pulled out his parts box and had it back up and running most rikki tik.

Hearing Protection—A couple of students without amplified hearing protection had difficulty hearing the range commands due to wind and being on the end of the line. Because electronic ear pro can be had for well under $100 these days, I expect that some instructors may begin to make it mandatory, as this is not just a nuisance; it is a safety concern.

Clothing Hazards—One student had a jacket with zipper pulls that got entangled between his Glock and his holster. Fortunately someone else warned him about it before it caused a loud noise. Zipper pulls, draw strings, and shirt tails can be real hazards, especially with “safe-action”-type pistols. It’s best to remove or secure anything that might conflict with safe holstering.

Random Observations
This content of this class was very similar to last year’s. For details of the drills, see my 2008 AAR: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13234
Final round count was a bit shy of 1,000.
Larry emphasized that the trigger pull for a duty/carry pistol should not be less than 4 pounds. 4-6 pounds is the range he recommends.
Larry showed us a modified version of the sul ready position in which the support-side thumb is placed over the slide rather than behind it. Larry said this version originated with the Air Marshals and is intended to improve retention. I found it more comfortable and intuitive for me than the conventional Position Sul.
Larry allowed me to shoot a few rounds through his M&P9, which had a trigger job by Ernest Langdon, grip stippling by David Bowie, Warren Tactical sights, and a CTC laser module. Very nice. Larry advised that he personally would skip the thumb-safety option, because it is in a different location than on a 1911.
Larry said that the M&P laser module may be the best one that Crimson Trace makes to-date.
When asked what other pistols other than Glocks should have their magazines downloaded by one round, Larry replied that the only other that came to mind was the M&P45 (download from 10 rounds to 9). He stated that there should be about ½-round free travel in the magazine to ensure that it’s not too difficult to seat during a tactical reload.
While Larry was demonstrating The Rip Drill and advising that shooters of 1911s needed to master the method of clearing more complex malfunctions, one student (a Glock shooter) asked: “Why, other than nostalgia, would anyone today choose a 1911?” Larry hesitated a bit and then replied: “Yeah, but the 1911 is still the most-shootable pistol.” He stated that 1911 use is in a bit of a decline, but that another magazine-capacity ban could revive its popularity.
Watching Wayne and Lloyd consistently group all of their shots in the black with their 9mm Glocks makes me wonder why I bother with “the most-shootable pistol.”
Larry doesn’t bother with a lot of formalities. Rather than a nametag, student’s are likely to get a nickname instead (e.g., Dude, Doc, Professor, Demo, Pearl Jam, Dad, Dude…). Lectures are kept to a minimum. Rather than certificates, we got Vickers Tactical stickers (a cool addition to my dry box).
Larry invites questions and does not hesitate to give you his opinion based upon his experience.
A boo-boo kit comes in handy. During the speed-reload drills on TD1 I managed to pinch the palm of my support hand between the magazine base and mag well of my pistol, leaving a tender blood blister. I covered it with a bit of moleskin as I would a friction blister on my foot and wore gloves for the duration with no real discomfort.


Kudos—Many thanks to the Quinn Ranch Training and Lloyd G for hosting another world-class training opportunity. Many thanks also to Larry Vickers for making the trek to Texas.

Aubrey
04-01-09, 20:57
and this pic defines MY performance...

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y97/bogardaw/motivational_el_snatcho1.jpg

ashooter
04-01-09, 21:15
Great AAR as usual, Aubrey!

BTW, that "El Snatcho" is perfect! Did you come up with that yourself, or have I just been offline too long?

:p

John_Wayne777
04-01-09, 21:17
Larry allowed me to shoot a few rounds through his M&P9, which had a trigger job by Ernest Langdon, grip stippling by David Bowie, Warren Tactical sights, and a CTC laser module. Very nice. Larry advised that he personally would skip the thumb-safety option, because it is in a different location than on a 1911.


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/pistoloffuture.jpg

Aubrey
04-01-09, 21:28
Great AAR as usual, Aubrey!

BTW, that "El Snatcho" is perfect! Did you come up with that yourself, or have I just been offline too long?

:p

It's my own motivational poster. El Snatcho is portrayed by Alfonso Bedoya ("Badges?... We don't need no... stinkin' badges!" from The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, 1948, with Humphry Bogart).

thetallengineer
04-01-09, 21:48
Excellent motivational poster Aubrey and a nicely written AAR that hits all the high points. Don't worry you aren't the only one that has El Snatcho interfering with the shots. I'm going to make a dedicated effort to use the drills Larry taught us to eradicate that "software" virus.

It was good seeing and talking to you again and hopefully we can shoot together in future classes.

Thanks to Trish and Lloyd for organizing the class and lodging. Also a big thanks to Larry Vickers for making the trip to Brady and Wayne Dobbs for the supplemental training/information.

Aubrey
04-01-09, 21:52
Congratulations to thetallengineer for winning the Evaluation competition!

thetallengineer
04-01-09, 22:10
Well in all fairness Lloyd really won the final evaluation but since he had won the previous competition and pair of Vickers Tactical gloves. I was fortunate enough to come in second and be given a pair of gloves as well by Larry.

Thanks for the gloves Larry, I look forward to using them in the near future.

lindertw
04-02-09, 06:43
thanks for the AAR Aubrey. Love the El Snatcho motivational poster - printing a copy for my range bag!

ashooter
04-02-09, 07:14
Well in all fairness Lloyd really won the final evaluation but since he had won the previous competition and pair of Vickers Tactical gloves. I was fortunate enough to come in second and be given a pair of gloves as well by Larry.

Thanks for the gloves Larry, I look forward to using them in the near future.


Actually, YOU won the final eval! El Snatcho showed his ugly self on my target and you were down 5-6 points fewer than me. Don't sell yourself short - I saw you shoot... You're pretty well dialed in most of the time. Wayne's the only one that seems to be dialed in ALL of the time.

Blinking Dog
04-02-09, 11:44
Now Lloyd is being modest. Wayne is absolutely a fantastic shooter and whipped up on all of us. No doubt about it, he's a fantastic shooter and a true gentleman. So the following statement is not intended as a knock on Wayne, just an observation on Lloyd's ability: I noticed in the shoot-offs between Lloyd and Wayne that Lloyd was drawing from concealment. And Wayne just barely beat him. So that is quite a testament to Lloyd's shooting too. I was very impressed.

Kind of seemed to me that Wayne and Lloyd were way out in front in a league of their own.

thetallengineer - you were quite an impressive shooter as well

ashooter
04-02-09, 13:15
...I noticed in the shoot-offs between Lloyd and Wayne that Lloyd was drawing from concealment...

That's just 'cause I'm a wuss and was COLD.

Over the past few years I have shot in several carbine and pistol classes with Wayne as a fellow student. When he talks, I listen and learn. That's one thing about classes like this that people don't often mention: you can often learn almost as much from other students as you learn from the instructor. Wayne's spur of the moment abbreviated Glock armorer course is a good example. I've also learned a few things about tactics from other students - things that are not generally included in the instructors curriculum in a 3-day class like this. The more I learn, the more I realize that I have a LOT MORE to learn.

Blinking Dog
04-02-09, 13:40
That's just 'cause I'm a wuss and was COLD.

Ha ha, cold? Did you see me on TD1? I piled on every shirt I had and Aubrey gave me some hand warmers but I was still shivering like crazy. Made for a fun morning, especially doing the empty case drill in the stiff wind.

I look forward to training with Wayne again some time. Great guy.

Staying at the lodge was a great bonus. Very gracious of the Quinns. Always a treat to be able to have the class together in one spot. The after hours stuff was above and beyond what I expected.

Wayne Dobbs
04-02-09, 13:49
Guys,

As usual, I had a great time training and hanging with all of you at this class! As for the eval, I don't recall who was out front because, as we Texas guys say, something "took aholt" of me just before the test began and I had to make a high speed return to the lodge "facilities" or suffer lifelong embarrassment! Did you know you can get up over 50 mph on that gravel ranch road??

I look forward to seeing all of you again and if you find yourself in the mood for more (and harder) LAV pistol work, see this one:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=27747

Blinking Dog
04-02-09, 14:45
Hey Lloyd, someone was taking pictures on TD3...are those going to get posted?

ashooter
04-02-09, 14:56
Trish's mom took some pics, but Trish was heading to Belize for 3 weeks for an expedition medical course the day after this class. I doubt we'll see any pics before she gets back.