Blake
04-01-09, 23:22
BACKGROUND:
This is a joint AAR, that myself and Mike wrote. I attended the Vickers Tactical Pistol and Carbine course on 20-22 March with another LF member, mspight (Mike). This was the second time I have taken this course and Mike’s first time to train with LAV.
RANGE DESCRIPTION:
The course was hosted by DVC Training at a range on a family farm near Richmond, KS which is approximately 40-50 miles south of Lawrence, KS on US Hiway 59. The main portion of the range was only 25 yds and not level, presenting shooters with a gently sloping upgrade. However, you could cross a couple of muddy ditches to get out to 100 + yds. The range worked, but is probably not the optimal setup for carbine shooting, but it was more than adequate for the pistol portion. The DVC guys had arranged lunch to be served (some outstanding homemade bean and ham soup and chili) on TD1 and TD2, and this was a great bonus.
EQUIPMENT:
The pistol I used for the course was a S&W MP9 that has an “LX” Trigger from David Bowie. This pistol performed flawlessly throughout the course and was great to shoot.
The rifle I used was a BCM mid-length upper with a Daniel Defense M4 12.0 Lite Rail. The upper sits on a LMT lower. Additionally, I ran an Aimpoint Micro H-1 on Larue mount, with a Larue Poboy magnifier. I started out the course with no VFG, but I put on the Larue FUG before the end of TD2. For some reason throughout the entire course I felt like I wasn’t stable, and had an extremely big wobble zone. I’m sure this was more psychological than anything, but the FUG seemed to settle me down. This is my first time running the magnifier or the RDS in a course. I appreciated both. The H-1 is definitely awesome, and I found the magnifier to be handy and easy to use.
I had only two issues with the carbine. One I suspected was a poorly seated mag, and the other was a mag that was incredibly difficult to seat. I thought I did a correct push pull, but I was running a Redi-Mag in the class and was working through some training issues with it. I found it difficult to seat mags, or run malfunction drills with the Redi-Mag. However, I am still relatively new to it, so I expected some issues. Prior to class, I had practiced reloading, obviously not enough admin loading and malfunctions. I do have the mag set aside that gave me the most trouble seating, and will run it through some iterations, to see if it a continuing problem and go from there.
I used a few different varieties of gear. On TD1 I used a RCS Phantom holster with Double mag pouch.
TD2 I wore a DBT Predator vest with soft armor Eagle Double M4 2-mag pouch and a single M4 FB pouch, an ICE Tactical MOLLE belt couple with some ATS suspenders with a Blade-tech DOH holster, Eagle FB M4 pouch, with Eagle FB double pistol mag pouch. I made a few discoveries with my gear, and I will work on making it better. One factor was that the holster canted in toward my leg significantly. This was more a pain in the ass than anything; but it isn’t comforting pointing the pistol inward toward your hip when re-holstering. It isn’t a show stopper for the holster, but I think I would prefer the 6004. Additionally the 6004, via the leg strap, gives the MOLLE belt an anchor to hold it down on the waist. On TD3, I did run the Eagle FB chest rig, with my MOLLE Belt. The about my gear in this setup was the suspenders liked to slip off the shoulder. With the armor vest on this was not an issue. I think cinching them up, and a little tape will make the straps more secure. Those are my personal gear observations. I may have left something out, but I’m sure I’ll think of it later.
Mike’s primarys were a Noveske N4 with T1 RDS and Troy front and rear BUIS. Mike also has a Surefire Scout light mounted at 1800, TD rail covers and pistol grip, a Larue FUG, and VLTOR stock. He also brought his LMT MLR for backup. It is equipped with a T1 RDS as well, but with LMT fixed rear BUIS and LMT front BUIS. His LMT does not have a light or VFG mounted, but does have TD grip panels, an Ergo pistol grip and LMT SOPMOD stock. He has V-Tac padded slings on both. Mike ran 10 of his Lancer L-5 mags for the three days of shooting and did not experience any magazine or carbine related malfunctions. Mike carried carbine and pistol mags in an SKD chest rig; the variant produced for them by Eagle without the MBITR radio pouches.
Mike’s secondarys were a 10-8 Performance/SA Custom Shop Operator from the second run. He also brought his Kimber Warrior which has undergone a significant amount of work by the SA Custom Shop as well. Magazines were a mix of Wilson 47s and CMC Power Mags. He ran both mags in the Kimber but limited the 10-8/SA Operator to the CMCs as it is set up for optimum performance with that particular mag.
Mike’s holster was a Comp-Tac vertical drop belt holster with two of their single mag pouches. Neither pistol has a light mounted on their rails, but Mike brought two G2’s with him for the night shoot.
His ammunition was a mix of WW White Box and GA Arms “Canned Heat” in .45 ACP, 230 gr hardball and strictly GA Arms “Canned Heat” in 55gr FMJ 5.55x45mm (loaded to .223 specs). He experienced zero issues related to ammunition.
TD1:
TD1 was devoted 100% to the pistol. As it is well known, Larry’s courses are heavily focused on accuracy. He has very tight standards, and the results are often humbling for even very good, solid shooters. The day started out with a safety brief, but it is not typical of many safety briefs you may have received from other instructors. Larry will give you his “real world” safety brief. This is a great lead in to avoiding a “range mentality”. While I took detailed notes, many of the things Larry covers have been detailed heavily before. Some of the drills and topics of TD1 were:
• Trigger Control Exercise (dry fire with empty shell casing or coin balanced on front sight).
• Ball and dummy drill; variations of this drill included “Command Fire” and “Timed-Fire” Ball and Dummy. I had never done these drills at his previous course, and again it was humbling. Can you say “Trigger Control”…can you avoid “El Snatcho”?
• Living with your “wobble zone”.
• Timed fire drills
• Started at the 3yd line-low ready 1 shot, then 2 shots, then 3 shots, this was always done within a time standard.
• Reloads- Larry has a very practical approach to reloads. He does not always advocate one certain way. He does ask you to think about why you do it a certain way. His techniques are very efficient. Smooth is fast was emphasized.
• Draw Stroke- Larry really emphasized his method for drawing out of a Safariland 6004, as there were many in our class with them. His method is very solid and consistent. Some of the unique aspects Larry teaches in this area are full speed to the gun, half speed at the gun, and full speed out to the target. The half speed at the gun allows you to get a solid grip on the weapon, so you are not attempting to adjust a poor grip while trying to align your sights and get a good trigger press and shot.
• Turns from the ready and when moving (to either side or to the rear).
• Timed “Walk Back” drills starting at the 5 yd line, moving back until no one was left except the last shooter to hit the target (Pepper Popper) w/in the time constraint.
• Team shooting competitions (small competitions were done throughout the day after drills as well).
At the completion of our team drills we broke for the evening so we could do a night fire. Like many other things the night techniques were very practical. We covered a point-shooting technique, advantages and disadvantages of different night sights, hand held flash light techniques (Harries, Rogers), and did some shooting drills with each topic. In essence, night sights are essential on pistols, but should not be too bright. LAV’s preference is for the “Straight 8” configuration or a night front sight only. He feels that the commonly seen three dot configuration of night sights can lead to grossly misaligned sights when under stress. Additionally, sights that are too bright can make it difficult to see a target in darkness. Larry also covered the advantages and disadvantages of laser grips and weapons mounted lights. Everything has trade-offs, and you must determine what suits you best. Pistol mounted lights can be difficult to manipulate, resulting in light NDs, but using a hand-held can make controlling the weapon more difficult. His flashlight technique is very effective, while making it difficult for an adversary to locate you. Use of the light should be held to an absolute minimum necessary amount.
TD 2 & 3:
Both the second and third days of training place more emphasis on use of the carbine (TD2) and then integration of the carbine and pistol (transitions) on TD3. Again, the emphasis was on accuracy over speed. “Walk Back Drills” and other team competitions were the order of the day, along with weak side shooting with the carbine.
Proper sling configuration was emphasized if the shooter was to efficiently utilize the weak side technique.
TD 3 also focused on transitions: when and how to do it properly. Several drills and team competitions were run which forced all shooters to transition to their blaster when their primaries ran dry, both static and when on the move.
One thing that all of the more experienced shooters who had time with other trainers noted was that LAV spent very little time going over malfunction reduction/remedial action with the pistol or carbine or in how to “run the gun” efficiently, hence our impression is that this course is designed for more experienced shooters. For two of the students, it was their very first carbine course and their level of inexperience was clear. Not to the extent that they morphed into “That Guy”, but they naturally required more attention and help than the rest of us. One of these two, a very young man, used both a 1911 and AR set up with .22 Long Rifle conversion units. Both were a constant source of problems related to feeding and ejection, particularly once they dirtied up. Unfortunately, lube did not seem to help, and by TD3, he switched to an M9 and removed the conversion unit from his AR and shot center fire ammo in both platforms. LAV’s and our assessments were in synch: .22LR conversions are fine for individual practice in a low round count, low intensity environment for training. They are a “No Go” for serious work with a reputable trainer when other paying students end up with time wasted due to the constant malfunctions.
CONCLUSION:
Bottom line: a great training opportunity with a world class trainer, gunfighter and pistol smith, but not one we would recommend for a first timer. Less emphasis on running the guns, malfunction clearance and remedial action, extreme emphasis on accuracy is, in our opinions, better suited for someone with LE or MIL experience or who has had previous carbine and pistol training under their belt.
Round count was not extremely high for a 3 day class: around 700-800 rounds of carbine ammo and about 600 for the pistol. We did shoot more than the advertised ammo requirement by about 100 rds, so like any other course, bring extra ammunition.
As I mentioned, I’d trained with Larry previously (same course) in 2007 and would like to train with him again, but a different class. Mike had not previously trained carbine with Larry, but has 3 carbine courses with Pat Rogers over the past couple of years. Mike has already signed up to train with LAV again, but for a pistol course next time.
Finally, Larry’s sense of humor is a hoot…lot’s of good stories abounded during break times and he as always ready to give his opinion or advice when asked about equipment or techniques. Be advised though, if you are making stupid mistakes and wanking shots all over the target, he will see it and let you know about it…loud and clear, so anyone who is thinned skinned may be better served training with someone who is, shall we say, more “sensitive”. But if you want to be challenged to do your best, you cannot go wrong with Larry Vickers.
This is a joint AAR, that myself and Mike wrote. I attended the Vickers Tactical Pistol and Carbine course on 20-22 March with another LF member, mspight (Mike). This was the second time I have taken this course and Mike’s first time to train with LAV.
RANGE DESCRIPTION:
The course was hosted by DVC Training at a range on a family farm near Richmond, KS which is approximately 40-50 miles south of Lawrence, KS on US Hiway 59. The main portion of the range was only 25 yds and not level, presenting shooters with a gently sloping upgrade. However, you could cross a couple of muddy ditches to get out to 100 + yds. The range worked, but is probably not the optimal setup for carbine shooting, but it was more than adequate for the pistol portion. The DVC guys had arranged lunch to be served (some outstanding homemade bean and ham soup and chili) on TD1 and TD2, and this was a great bonus.
EQUIPMENT:
The pistol I used for the course was a S&W MP9 that has an “LX” Trigger from David Bowie. This pistol performed flawlessly throughout the course and was great to shoot.
The rifle I used was a BCM mid-length upper with a Daniel Defense M4 12.0 Lite Rail. The upper sits on a LMT lower. Additionally, I ran an Aimpoint Micro H-1 on Larue mount, with a Larue Poboy magnifier. I started out the course with no VFG, but I put on the Larue FUG before the end of TD2. For some reason throughout the entire course I felt like I wasn’t stable, and had an extremely big wobble zone. I’m sure this was more psychological than anything, but the FUG seemed to settle me down. This is my first time running the magnifier or the RDS in a course. I appreciated both. The H-1 is definitely awesome, and I found the magnifier to be handy and easy to use.
I had only two issues with the carbine. One I suspected was a poorly seated mag, and the other was a mag that was incredibly difficult to seat. I thought I did a correct push pull, but I was running a Redi-Mag in the class and was working through some training issues with it. I found it difficult to seat mags, or run malfunction drills with the Redi-Mag. However, I am still relatively new to it, so I expected some issues. Prior to class, I had practiced reloading, obviously not enough admin loading and malfunctions. I do have the mag set aside that gave me the most trouble seating, and will run it through some iterations, to see if it a continuing problem and go from there.
I used a few different varieties of gear. On TD1 I used a RCS Phantom holster with Double mag pouch.
TD2 I wore a DBT Predator vest with soft armor Eagle Double M4 2-mag pouch and a single M4 FB pouch, an ICE Tactical MOLLE belt couple with some ATS suspenders with a Blade-tech DOH holster, Eagle FB M4 pouch, with Eagle FB double pistol mag pouch. I made a few discoveries with my gear, and I will work on making it better. One factor was that the holster canted in toward my leg significantly. This was more a pain in the ass than anything; but it isn’t comforting pointing the pistol inward toward your hip when re-holstering. It isn’t a show stopper for the holster, but I think I would prefer the 6004. Additionally the 6004, via the leg strap, gives the MOLLE belt an anchor to hold it down on the waist. On TD3, I did run the Eagle FB chest rig, with my MOLLE Belt. The about my gear in this setup was the suspenders liked to slip off the shoulder. With the armor vest on this was not an issue. I think cinching them up, and a little tape will make the straps more secure. Those are my personal gear observations. I may have left something out, but I’m sure I’ll think of it later.
Mike’s primarys were a Noveske N4 with T1 RDS and Troy front and rear BUIS. Mike also has a Surefire Scout light mounted at 1800, TD rail covers and pistol grip, a Larue FUG, and VLTOR stock. He also brought his LMT MLR for backup. It is equipped with a T1 RDS as well, but with LMT fixed rear BUIS and LMT front BUIS. His LMT does not have a light or VFG mounted, but does have TD grip panels, an Ergo pistol grip and LMT SOPMOD stock. He has V-Tac padded slings on both. Mike ran 10 of his Lancer L-5 mags for the three days of shooting and did not experience any magazine or carbine related malfunctions. Mike carried carbine and pistol mags in an SKD chest rig; the variant produced for them by Eagle without the MBITR radio pouches.
Mike’s secondarys were a 10-8 Performance/SA Custom Shop Operator from the second run. He also brought his Kimber Warrior which has undergone a significant amount of work by the SA Custom Shop as well. Magazines were a mix of Wilson 47s and CMC Power Mags. He ran both mags in the Kimber but limited the 10-8/SA Operator to the CMCs as it is set up for optimum performance with that particular mag.
Mike’s holster was a Comp-Tac vertical drop belt holster with two of their single mag pouches. Neither pistol has a light mounted on their rails, but Mike brought two G2’s with him for the night shoot.
His ammunition was a mix of WW White Box and GA Arms “Canned Heat” in .45 ACP, 230 gr hardball and strictly GA Arms “Canned Heat” in 55gr FMJ 5.55x45mm (loaded to .223 specs). He experienced zero issues related to ammunition.
TD1:
TD1 was devoted 100% to the pistol. As it is well known, Larry’s courses are heavily focused on accuracy. He has very tight standards, and the results are often humbling for even very good, solid shooters. The day started out with a safety brief, but it is not typical of many safety briefs you may have received from other instructors. Larry will give you his “real world” safety brief. This is a great lead in to avoiding a “range mentality”. While I took detailed notes, many of the things Larry covers have been detailed heavily before. Some of the drills and topics of TD1 were:
• Trigger Control Exercise (dry fire with empty shell casing or coin balanced on front sight).
• Ball and dummy drill; variations of this drill included “Command Fire” and “Timed-Fire” Ball and Dummy. I had never done these drills at his previous course, and again it was humbling. Can you say “Trigger Control”…can you avoid “El Snatcho”?
• Living with your “wobble zone”.
• Timed fire drills
• Started at the 3yd line-low ready 1 shot, then 2 shots, then 3 shots, this was always done within a time standard.
• Reloads- Larry has a very practical approach to reloads. He does not always advocate one certain way. He does ask you to think about why you do it a certain way. His techniques are very efficient. Smooth is fast was emphasized.
• Draw Stroke- Larry really emphasized his method for drawing out of a Safariland 6004, as there were many in our class with them. His method is very solid and consistent. Some of the unique aspects Larry teaches in this area are full speed to the gun, half speed at the gun, and full speed out to the target. The half speed at the gun allows you to get a solid grip on the weapon, so you are not attempting to adjust a poor grip while trying to align your sights and get a good trigger press and shot.
• Turns from the ready and when moving (to either side or to the rear).
• Timed “Walk Back” drills starting at the 5 yd line, moving back until no one was left except the last shooter to hit the target (Pepper Popper) w/in the time constraint.
• Team shooting competitions (small competitions were done throughout the day after drills as well).
At the completion of our team drills we broke for the evening so we could do a night fire. Like many other things the night techniques were very practical. We covered a point-shooting technique, advantages and disadvantages of different night sights, hand held flash light techniques (Harries, Rogers), and did some shooting drills with each topic. In essence, night sights are essential on pistols, but should not be too bright. LAV’s preference is for the “Straight 8” configuration or a night front sight only. He feels that the commonly seen three dot configuration of night sights can lead to grossly misaligned sights when under stress. Additionally, sights that are too bright can make it difficult to see a target in darkness. Larry also covered the advantages and disadvantages of laser grips and weapons mounted lights. Everything has trade-offs, and you must determine what suits you best. Pistol mounted lights can be difficult to manipulate, resulting in light NDs, but using a hand-held can make controlling the weapon more difficult. His flashlight technique is very effective, while making it difficult for an adversary to locate you. Use of the light should be held to an absolute minimum necessary amount.
TD 2 & 3:
Both the second and third days of training place more emphasis on use of the carbine (TD2) and then integration of the carbine and pistol (transitions) on TD3. Again, the emphasis was on accuracy over speed. “Walk Back Drills” and other team competitions were the order of the day, along with weak side shooting with the carbine.
Proper sling configuration was emphasized if the shooter was to efficiently utilize the weak side technique.
TD 3 also focused on transitions: when and how to do it properly. Several drills and team competitions were run which forced all shooters to transition to their blaster when their primaries ran dry, both static and when on the move.
One thing that all of the more experienced shooters who had time with other trainers noted was that LAV spent very little time going over malfunction reduction/remedial action with the pistol or carbine or in how to “run the gun” efficiently, hence our impression is that this course is designed for more experienced shooters. For two of the students, it was their very first carbine course and their level of inexperience was clear. Not to the extent that they morphed into “That Guy”, but they naturally required more attention and help than the rest of us. One of these two, a very young man, used both a 1911 and AR set up with .22 Long Rifle conversion units. Both were a constant source of problems related to feeding and ejection, particularly once they dirtied up. Unfortunately, lube did not seem to help, and by TD3, he switched to an M9 and removed the conversion unit from his AR and shot center fire ammo in both platforms. LAV’s and our assessments were in synch: .22LR conversions are fine for individual practice in a low round count, low intensity environment for training. They are a “No Go” for serious work with a reputable trainer when other paying students end up with time wasted due to the constant malfunctions.
CONCLUSION:
Bottom line: a great training opportunity with a world class trainer, gunfighter and pistol smith, but not one we would recommend for a first timer. Less emphasis on running the guns, malfunction clearance and remedial action, extreme emphasis on accuracy is, in our opinions, better suited for someone with LE or MIL experience or who has had previous carbine and pistol training under their belt.
Round count was not extremely high for a 3 day class: around 700-800 rounds of carbine ammo and about 600 for the pistol. We did shoot more than the advertised ammo requirement by about 100 rds, so like any other course, bring extra ammunition.
As I mentioned, I’d trained with Larry previously (same course) in 2007 and would like to train with him again, but a different class. Mike had not previously trained carbine with Larry, but has 3 carbine courses with Pat Rogers over the past couple of years. Mike has already signed up to train with LAV again, but for a pistol course next time.
Finally, Larry’s sense of humor is a hoot…lot’s of good stories abounded during break times and he as always ready to give his opinion or advice when asked about equipment or techniques. Be advised though, if you are making stupid mistakes and wanking shots all over the target, he will see it and let you know about it…loud and clear, so anyone who is thinned skinned may be better served training with someone who is, shall we say, more “sensitive”. But if you want to be challenged to do your best, you cannot go wrong with Larry Vickers.