View Full Version : HK416 production suspended due to combat failure?
variablebinary
04-02-09, 15:36
This internet rumor has been proven to be false...
Anyone have a comment, or is able to verify?
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/03/hk416-production-suspended/
Tactical Wire claims that significant problems with the HK416 have been uncovered and production has been halted:
The Tactical Wire has learned from very reliable sources that the US military has encountered significant problems with H&K Model 416s in combat conditions. HK has suspended production pending an internal investigation and inspection of that weapon system.
Very interesting if true. I previously reported that Norwegian soldiers were having problems with their HK416s.
Thanks to Ed Friedman for alerting me to this.
RogerinTPA
04-02-09, 16:05
That is interesting hearing about problems from such a supposedly, highly reliable gun. I wonder what the significant issues are.
I remember hearing that soldiers from Norway were having issues, I wonder what the deal is!
My outfit has 4 now and 10 more on order. The initial ones have issues running on the "perfect" HK mag...The guys use USGI mags. They are waiting for the Emags to try. I cannot speak for guys behind the lines for long period in A'stan, but in my experience, these piston M16s are a solution in search of a problem. I never had a stoppage (other than that shitty Winchester or International frangible ammo) in my Commando as long as it was lubed. There were many days in training when it had 500-1000 rounds fired. I have one of mine personal guns to 2500 rds without a drop of lube or cleaning with a NP3ed BCG.
I am curious if this is true and will come out of it. For LEO purposes, I think the money can be much better spent....
thopkins22
04-02-09, 17:49
I remember hearing that soldiers from Norway were having issues, I wonder what the deal is!
The Norwegians were choking/feeling after-effects from the new "safer" lead free ammunition.
I suppose they may have had problems with the weapon as well, but the article I saw was dealing with the fumes.
The Norwegians were choking/feeling after-effects from the new "safer" lead free ammunition.
I was on an agency's range today and the FI brought out a 416 for some shooting. Afterwards, he had a severe sneezing attack. He said something about allergies and the high pollen count but I think it was the 416 fumes! :D
variablebinary
04-02-09, 19:38
The Norwegians were choking/feeling after-effects from the new "safer" lead free ammunition.
I suppose they may have had problems with the weapon as well, but the article I saw was dealing with the fumes.
There was also a report of poor cold weather performance. Interesting...
My first question is how relaible is this "tactical wire" thing? I wouldn't put too much stock in this, but that's just me.
My first question is how relaible is this "tactical wire" thing? I wouldn't put too much stock in this, but that's just me.
I, for one, think they publish great stuff. (http://www.thetacticalwire.com/release.html?releaseID=144084) :cool:
Don't you count as a biased source? :D
I, for one, think they publish great stuff. (http://www.thetacticalwire.com/release.html?releaseID=144084) :cool:
Don't you count as a biased source? :D
When have I ever been biased about anything?
Smiley face indicates that I was joking.
When have I ever been biased about anything?
HisDivineShadow
04-03-09, 06:54
There was also a report of poor cold weather performance. Interesting...
Yeah you bring it into the warmth and condensation happens in all the nooks and crannies. When I was in the army (finland) we'd leave our guns (Valmet/Sakos) outside in the cold and not bring them into the tent when out in the field.
Rust is ofcourse less an issue with the alu-based AR/HK models than our steel AK deriviatives but the condensation can freeze again when you bring it out if it hasn't had time to evaporate entierly, which means it can freeze your action and cause cycling problems. Our RK's where quite resiliant against the latter though, just give them a whack, bang them into the ground or whack it against a tree or just rack the bolt.
Here is a link to TOS where the original poster talks about his country's adoption of the H&K 416 and the problems he is seeing........
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=430093
Smiley face indicates that I was joking.
Lack of smiley face in my response was meant to indicate I thought it was clear I was joking, too.
:cool::p:D:eek::cool::rolleyes:
OldNavyGuy
04-03-09, 09:55
Edit- Please do not post hobby gun infomercials on this forum.
Especially one that you do not have a clue about.
Littlelebowski
04-03-09, 09:58
wellllll.., i would like to say, "I TOLD YOU SO" :D
this opens the door to the most reliable piston AR-15 type on the market today.
[
Tell us about your personal experience with this weapon then. I suppose you realize that the IAR was designed to supplant the M249 SAW, not the 416 rifle?
decodeddiesel
04-03-09, 10:38
I wonder if the US Secret Service has suspended use of there 416's?:eek:
I kind of doubt it. I don't really think the Secret Service is subjecting their rifles to the kind of environments the end users in Norway, Iraq, and Afghanistan are. They may not be seeing the same types of failures.
stanlyonjr
04-03-09, 10:41
Anyone know what the failure is? The information on it is slim at best.
decodeddiesel
04-03-09, 10:44
Anyone know what the failure is? The information on it is slim at best.
Stan check out the link to the thread on TOS (ar15.com). Be ready to deal with some stupidity, but the posts from the Norwegian Soldier in that thread are telling.
Born of a concept developed by the USMC, the Infantry Automatic Rifle represents a weapon system designed to combat today’s modern threats. With the majority of today’s conflicts occurring in built-up urban landscapes, and battles becoming faster and more fluid, the designated SAW gunner needs a lighter, handier, more reliable, and surgically precise weapon. The M6A4™ rifle fulfills this need and then some!
How many M6A4's is USMC buying, again? :rolleyes:
It'll be interesting to see, given all the reports of excellent reliability from US end-users, how much of this report is a design inherent problem vs how much of it is from things that may have been spec'd by the Norwegian Army.
stanlyonjr
04-03-09, 11:09
Whats the cost or a 416 as compared to a Colt M4? Anyone??
MikeCLeonard
04-03-09, 13:11
Holy crap an informative post on TOS? GTFO!
ETA: Oh man I f'ing love it. Here is a foreign, professional solder posting real world experiences and issues with a weapon platform. Yeah they're less than favorable, and yeah "how dare you insult HK! I like pie" crap. So what does he get for it? He gets torn apart for it by jack ass dip shits who've probably never even seen a real 416 much less employed one in a real world role as an infantry man's primary weapon system. Un****ingbelievable.
Some highlights:
"MMMMMMMM........kay.....That's exactly opposite from everything I've heard from guys running that platform."
Are you running it? No? Then STFU!!!
"Oh yeah, I'm sure they're absolute junk"
Guess what A-hole, contrary to what you've read on the airsoft forums yeah it sure seems to be that way now doesn't it?
Actually, I'm pretty sure the guy who said that does or did deploy a 416 for his own use. I think he's in the military and might actually have first hand knowledge of what the end users think about it too.
Not positive on that, but just don't assume that nobody else has any real experience before you bash them.
decodeddiesel
04-03-09, 14:18
Actually, I'm pretty sure the guy who said that does or did deploy a 416 for his own use. I think he's in the military and might actually have first hand knowledge of what the end users think about it too.
Not positive on that, but just don't assume that nobody else has any real experience before you bash them.
I made my comment based on his comment. I quote "MMMMMMMM........kay.....That's exactly opposite from everything I've heard from guys running that platform.
Yeah his avatar would indicate he's in the military. Well guess what? So was I. Maybe he's spent time in Iraq with some HSLD types that have employed the 416. Guess what? SO HAVE I. Has he personally used the weapon? Nope, not by his comments. So does that make him qualified to form a compelling argument against a professional with first hand experience on the platform? Not by a long shot. His obvious sarcasm with the "MMMMMMM...kay..." crap indicates he is being argumentative to the facts and findings posted by the OP.
decodeddiesel
04-03-09, 14:21
Not positive on that, but just don't assume that nobody else has any real experience before you bash them.
Oh and as far as general credibility on AR15.com? Until presented proof to the contrary everything and everyone on that site is suspect, ergo I will assume you are a 18 year old airsofting booger eater until proven otherwise, especially when you pull some crap like he did.
I ran a 416 off and on from 11/2007 through 11/2008. No issues with the weapon other than one cheap magazine given to me with the gun that ended up being a major pain in the ass to remove. Other than that, the gun ran fine, to include putting a couple thousand rounds down range on training days, and putting rounds in a few squirters during several operations. Temperatures ranged from low 30's (to include the Baghdad snow day in 2007) to over 120 degrees. My backup gun was a Colt Commando, which saw as much use, if not more, but primarily because the HK weighed so much more and I was looking shed weight whenever possible. If you've had to roll around with a CIRAS rig with soft inserts and lev IV plates, plus all the other crap hanging off the vest then you'd understand my thought process there. My particular organization continues to field the rifle to at least one of our full time teams operating worldwide in a PSD type roll, and I've seen no reports from other operators regarding widespread failures. That's not to say that failures haven't occurred, but if they have, they haven't been enough to stop using the rifle in an organization where money and equipment is generally not a problem for the number of rifles we're issuing. We were running the 10.5 inch version.
decodeddiesel
04-03-09, 14:49
I ran a 416 off and on from 11/2007 through 11/2008. No issues with the weapon other than one cheap magazine given to me with the gun that ended up being a major pain in the ass to remove. Other than that, the gun ran fine, to include putting a couple thousand rounds down range on training days, and putting rounds in a few squirters during several operations. Temperatures ranged from low 30's (to include the Baghdad snow day in 2007) to over 120 degrees. My backup gun was a Colt Commando, which saw as much use, if not more, but primarily because the HK weighed so much more and I was looking shed weight whenever possible. If you've had to roll around with a CIRAS rig with soft inserts and lev IV plates, plus all the other crap hanging off the vest then you'd understand my thought process there. My particular organization continues to field the rifle to at least one of our full time teams operating worldwide in a PSD type roll, and I've seen no reports from other operators regarding widespread failures. That's not to say that failures haven't occurred, but if they have, they haven't been enough to stop using the rifle in an organization where money and equipment is generally not a problem for the number of rifles we're issuing. We were running the 10.5 inch version.
It appears the Norwegan Army version is a 14.5" with some specific "upgrades" from the normal 10.5" 416. Perhaps that's where most of the problems lie?
No telling brother. Ours were pretty much stock. Most of the guys ran EOtechs, some of us ran Aimpoints. None of us ran them suppressed, but I'm sure they've been tested in that configuration. I'll have to check with some guys who perform a different function but run the same platform to see if they've had any issues with modifications. But there's so much that comes into play in fielding any weapon system, particularly in a combat zone. Maintenance, to include lubrication intervals, type of lubricant used, parts used if modified, exposure to elements and steps taken to mitigate any extreme environmental issues. In big units - guns tend to be manhandled, stored in mass quantities in lockers, etc. In our case, once you checked out your rifle, it's yours. If you secure it while on R&R, when you return you go to the armory and give the guy your serial number and your rifle comes back and you know no one dicked around with it.
Of course, as is often the case, any failure of a system will be reported instantly on the internet (I see this on car discussion forums I frequent). For every 20 "this thing sucks" post, there might be 1 "xxx number of rounds to date, no issues here" post. Adding to the issue is the fact that at least here in the US, the rifle isn't being fielded in great quantities, which further amplifies the effect of any failure reportings. I'm going to shoot an email out to the some of the other teams on my work system next week and see what the feedback has been, but we've been deploying the system for several years now and so far the overall feedback has been positive, to include my time with the rifle for most of last year. I haven't tried one of the newer build date models which apparently have a lighter barrel. So far the weight of the gun has been my biggest beef.
From H&K: They have not repeat not shut down production of the 416 and in fact continue to produce them at maximum rate to meet demand by LE/mil around the world.
I've also been unable to find any evidence corroborating the claim that there have been "catastrophic failures in combat." No one outside the internet has ever heard of such a thing.
Clue.
I believe what we have are some isolated instances of 416's that aren't running perfectly after x-thousand rounds, combined with the mythical status of the 416 as some kind of ultra-uber-gun. So as soon as someone has a problem, it gets blown up into paranoiac TEOT416AWKI shenanigans.
Next the Tactical wire will tell us that Rob's chart is broken and had to be witdrawn from service (or that Rob is broken and had to be withdrawn from service)
Tactical wire is sponsored by Bushmaster: The king of Milspec firearms.
http://www.thetacticalwire.com/images/tactical_wire_header_02.jpg
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-03-09, 18:14
LOL. Another golden piece of internet firearms wisdom. It doesn't matter that it is totally false. It will be cited by fanboys of whatever competing brand until the end of time.
John_Wayne777
04-03-09, 23:16
Smells of fertilizer, if you ask me....
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-04-09, 00:40
Guys,
Unless we get some confirmation of this REAL soon I think this one needs to be put to bed.
dookie1481
04-04-09, 00:42
I made my comment based on his comment. I quote "MMMMMMMM........kay.....That's exactly opposite from everything I've heard from guys running that platform.
Yeah his avatar would indicate he's in the military. Well guess what? So was I. Maybe he's spent time in Iraq with some HSLD types that have employed the 416. Guess what? SO HAVE I. Has he personally used the weapon? Nope, not by his comments. So does that make him qualified to form a compelling argument against a professional with first hand experience on the platform? Not by a long shot. His obvious sarcasm with the "MMMMMMM...kay..." crap indicates he is being argumentative to the facts and findings posted by the OP.
Yeah, the guy who made that comment (MajorAR) owned a 416 upper.
According to Mark LaRue, he gave MajorAR a Stealth upper for T&E which mysteriously ended up for sale on an internet forum. Sounds like a great guy.
Jay
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-04-09, 00:44
Mark Larue,
You can send me one for T&E and I guarantee it will not be sold!:D
Unless we get some confirmation of this REAL soon I think this one needs to be put to bed.
My bad, I should have been more clear in my last post.
Today, I spoke with the President of HK-USA and he referred to the suggestion that 416 production had been halted as, and I quote, "ludicrous."
NCPatrolAR
04-04-09, 02:17
It looks like enough sources have clarified that this had no basis in fact. The thread will remain closed until something factual arises saying otherwise.
Official statement made by Heckler & Koch:
Contrary to anonymous source reports on the Internet, the U.S. military HAS NOT “encountered significant problems with HK Model 416s in combat conditions.” HK416s are currently being used in combat operations by U.S. and NATO special operations forces.
Furthermore, Heckler & Koch HAS NOT suspended production of the HK416. The HK416 continues to be one of Heckler & Koch’s most successful and sought after products.
I don't care what the detractors say, I've still got the MR556 on my Want List.
Okay folks, I think we can wrap this one up! ;)
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