View Full Version : HK P7
who all has a HK P7? this is in my opion the best gun in my safe I have three sig's,four kimbers and three glocks If someone has a P7 for sale let me know here is a pic of mine ( also my AR )
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/impala1970/P1011320.jpg
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-03-09, 18:25
It gets my vote for the neatest pistol ever. When I was growing up in the mid-80s it was THE uber pistol. Even Jeff Cooper liked it. Doctrine has since tilted heavily towards high-capacity so it has kind of been left behind. If this was 1987 and I was a smooth classically-educated international terrorist I wouldn't be caught without one.
It gets my vote for the neatest pistol ever. When I was growing up in the mid-80s it was THE uber pistol. Even Jeff Cooper liked it. Doctrine has since tilted heavily towards high-capacity so it has kind of been left behind. If this was 1987 and I was a smooth classically-educated international terrorist I wouldn't be caught without one.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Die%20Hard/die9.jpg
Exactly what Greg said....we must have been drinking the same stuff in the 80's.....:D
I carried a P7M8 for about 7 years. It shot exceedingly well, was quick into action, and with the right holster, carried well too.
However, as a practical piece, the Glock 19 or a SIG P228 has it all over the P7.
Same size pistol, double the capacity, and a whole lot less money.
the1911fan
04-03-09, 21:08
Best trigger I've felt on a striker fired gun
I am on the look out for a P7 M8 myself and believe that this might be on of the very best CCW weapons ever made.
If anyone has a line on one, please contact me!
C4
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-03-09, 21:20
Grant is right. It is one of the best CCW weapons ever made. Here is a list of stuff I came up with about 10 years ago...
1. Squeeze cocking. IMHO the safest gun for daily carry. The gun goes from perfectly safe to perfectly deadly in a split second. If you drop it you may have a heart attack because it might get scratched but you can rest assured it won't go off. This gun is incredibly fast.
2. Trigger pull. Thanks to the squeeze cocking system the gun is safely equipped with an excellent single action trigger pull. I've had die-hard partisans of every type of gun praise my P7's trigger.
3. Compact. Although it has full-size controls (no pinky hang), the gun is sized like a compact approaching a subcompact. It is much thinner than almost any handgun.(1.1-1.2 inches).
4. Full-size barrel. Despite this gun's compact size it has a full 4-inch barrel.
5. Fixed-barrel. This gun lacks the tilting barrel assembly of most other full-sized guns. This lends the gun exceptional accuracy. In combination with the aforementioned trigger, this barrel makes the P7 ultra-accurate.
6. Low recoil. This is debatable. I have always felt that this has the least recoil of any 9mm. Some disagree, most don't. This is likely result of the guns low bore/axis and gas system (although some say the gas system should have no effect).
7. Tough! This gun is CNC milled from a solid steel forging. The gun is so solid it could be used as a nasty set of brass knuckles in a pinch. Without picking one up it is hard to imagine how solid this little gun feels. When I had mine hard-chromed the smith complained endlessly about how hard the P7 was to machine.
8. Excellent sight radius. Although the gun is short, HK maximized the sight radius by pushing the sights as far apart as practically possible.
9. Oddball manual of arms confuses bad guys and know it all buddies. There are many accounts of cops loosing their P7's to bad guys who were, in turn, unable to figure out the squeeze cocker. On the lighter side, a know it all at a local gun shop had just explained to all of his bad experiences with the P7 when I handed it to him only to watch him fumble around unable to cock it! Hilarious.
10. Chamber fluting allows the gun to function even if the extractor is broken. This feature really makes you think when you are trying to determine which gun you want to bet you life on (no offense, but this a much more serious advantage than being able to freeze the gun in a bucket of ice or whatever).
11. Easily childproofed. The P7's striker can be removed without tools (and without any other disassembly of the gun). The striker can be re-inserted into the gun in roughly 1 second. This could be a major consideration to those of us with small children and stupid friends.
12. Ambidextrous. With the exception of the slide catch and take down buttons, every model of the P7 is completely ambidextrous.
13. Ultra-fast magazine release. This has to be experienced to be understood. Rambo types complained about the PSP’s lack of rapid magazine release. HK, Germans that they are, decided to give them what they wanted—a magazine that ejects so fast and powerfully that they could be used as back-up projectiles in an emergency.
14. Ultra fast slide release. Simply squeeze the handle and the slide will be released.
15. 110 degree grip angle gives the gun natural pointability. 110 degree grip angle makes the gun point just like you finger.
16. Low profile slide. The P7’s low profile slide means that there is very little recoiling mass relative to the frame. This, along with the above mentioned 110-degree grip angle makes reacquiring targets a breeze with the P7.
Con
1. The gun gets uncomfortably hot after 60 (or so) rapid shots. More of a training problem than a "real world" consideration.
2. Finish lacks durability. Blued finish wears quickly and is very little protection against corrosion.
3. Very expensive. At over $1000, this gun is out of the range of many buyers.
4. The gun's design is such that it gets dirty quickly when shot.
5. The gun malfunctions when not maintained properly. While this is true of all guns, the P7 seems to be more sensitive than most modern autos. The solution is to keep the gas cylinder clean.
6. The P7's cocking lever emits a click when released. This is more of an issue with SEAL wannabes than real people. The theory is that the noise will alert the bad guys to your presence. Easily overcome with technique anyway (press in cocking latch at top of cocking lever while releasing your grip). With this technique the gun is almost silent and certainly quieter than any SIG or USP with decocking lever.
7. Low capacity. Except in now unavailable M13 (LEO only) and M10 (discontinued for ugliness), capacity is limited to 9 rounds (with one in chamber).
8. Grip screws come loose too easily. Use lock-tite.
9. Can't use lead bullets (see cleanliness issues above).
10. Slide lock button too small for some.
11. Magazine release on M8/M13 too sensitive to careless holstering (accidental magazine ejection). PSP model doesn't suffer from this (Euro-magazine catch).
12. During an emergency a user might accidentally squeeze the trigger while squeezing the cocking lever. I personally think this isn't a problem. The P7 was designed with a fair amount of take-up in the trigger so the gun is tolerant of some sloppiness. The moral of the story is to keep you finger off the trigger until you are ready to kill something. It should also be noted that your trigger finger is relatively independent of your other fingers. I can't remember the physiological term, but the other three fingers usually act in unison while the index finger is only partially connected. Still, in an emergency anything is possible--practice proper form with all firearms!
13. For some, seriously ham-fisted users, the gun might be accidentally disassembled if the take down button is inadvertently pressed while the slide is being racked. This is extremely unlikely, however, it can be done with practice.
14. Disassembly not for mere mortals. A "detail strip"
can involve a lot of head/heart ache. The gun has a fair number of parts but the real problem is the gun's unorthodox design [Expert reassembly tip, use grease to hold in the mag release spring--otherwise you will go mad trying to hold everything together while attempting to drive in the assembly pin]. An armorer at HK told me that they regularly have to reassemble guns for owners who let curiosity get the better of them. Fortunately, there is really no reason to strip it down beyond a "field strip." Just spray in some gun oil and wipe.
15. Possible difficulty depressing cocking lever with weak or injured hands. My father has weakness in his right hand related to a stroke he had a few years ago. For a while he was unable to cock my M8. On the other hand, once the lever is squeezed it only takes about a pound and a half to keep it cocked.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-03-09, 21:23
It makes all other guns seem to be plebian. The next step forward in pistols is a phazer.
Took my shooting today. I have the P7 "tattoo" on my right hand at the vertex of the thumb and trigger finger where my gasses escaping out the back when the slide cycles leave a little black mark.
I just don't shoot mine well. Went back and forth between my P7 and my Sig X5 Tac today and there was a marked difference. I try to use a really high grip on it, but it naturally is a high-holder because the bore is so low. It feels good in my hand, shoots nice and soft, but I shot a hand size group at 7 yards with it.
The range owners where intrugued by it, and rather confused by the mechanism. He did do a guy-sound low-rumble "Hoo,hoooo" when he saw that the grip safety would drop the slide after a reload. That is cool. If only it dropped an empty mag at slide lock when you'd repress the squeeze cock.
If you see one in the gun store and it seems weird, that's natural. There is something about dry firing it and handling it that just goes away when you are going to shoot. It becomes totally transparent.
They do get HOT! I only have one mag right now, and I put about 50 rounds thru it in about 10 minutes and it was starting to get uncomfortable, not searing, but I didn't want to put another 20 rounds thru it.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-03-09, 21:28
Greg, Wow. Just really wow.
Wish I had done that good of a pro/con list before I married my first wife. I'm still with her.
I am on the look out for a P7 M8 myself and believe that this might be on of the very best CCW weapons ever made.
If anyone has a line on one, please contact me!
C4
Be prepared to spend some money on some good leather. The P7 series is very butt heavy, especially the M8 and M13's. You really need a good design to pull the butt back into you.
Kramer, DelFatti and Mitch Rosen are the names I hear the most, and I'm partial to Kramer's horsehide stuff.
Jim from Houston
04-03-09, 21:34
Love my P7M8...others have done an excellent job covering the pluses and minuses...for me, I shoot the P7 better than any other pistol...granted, I've moved on to a Glock 19 for many uses...it's an advance in terms of weight, capacity, etc.
Most surprising thing for most people about P7s is the weight...when you see it sitting on a table, it looks like a .380 or something, but its actually a 4 inch barreled solid steel 9mm and it weighs in accordingly...ain't no plastic to be found except the grip panels and the heat shield in the trigger guard.
As has been mentioned above, mag changes with the P7M8 are FAST...must be seen to be believed...empty mag FLIES out when you hit the release, and the cocking lever releases the slide so its not an extra step, since you sqeeze the cocking lever when preparing to fire anyway. It's all one very fluid motion.
They do get hot like crazy...I actually gave myself a pretty wicked burn on one occasion when I put 100 rounds down range without letting it cool off...I was concentrating on my shooting and didn't notice that my finger was frying like a bacon strip til it was too late.
In terms of holsters, I've actually had good luck with several of Comp-Tac's offerings for the P7.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-03-09, 22:14
Jim is right, the Comp-Tac C-tac is perfect for the P7.
Greg Bell nailed it. I carried a P7M8 for a couple of years for a duty gun and had the disassembly problem twice during training. I also saw it happen to another P7M8 shooter during an IPSC match in Anchorage several years ago. My hands are fairly small but I had he slide come off twice during malfunction drills. The good news is that I never had to perform a malfunction clearance for real as the gun never failed.
The only other problem I had was with the ambi mag release. Mine had a tendency to rub on the seat belt in my Ford Expedition take home and released a few times. I always checked to make sure the mag was still seated before I got out of the vehicle. Some of the folks on the Cult of the P7 site clipped the off side of the ambi safety to prevent the seat belt release.
I finally stopped carrying mine as they are now worth almost as much as gold and H&K is less than anxious to work on them if it breaks. I carried mine in a Kramer horsehide vertical scabbard for plainclothes and a Safari 6285 for uniform.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-04-09, 00:28
While we are all here, anybody got a bead in spare P7 PSP mags?
Not to be contrarian (who, me?) but just sort of thinking out loud ...
1. Squeeze cocking. IMHO the safest gun for daily carry. The gun goes from perfectly safe to perfectly deadly in a split second. If you drop it you may have a heart attack because it might get scratched but you can rest assured it won't go off. This gun is incredibly fast.
It's definitely safe until your hands are on it. While I don't know I'd say it's actually faster than other guns, it certainly has fewer steps and a more forgiving trigger than most.
2. Trigger pull. Thanks to the squeeze cocking system the gun is safely equipped with an excellent single action trigger pull. I've had die-hard partisans of every type of gun praise my P7's trigger.
I must just have bad luck. Every P7 I've ever shot (probably a dozen or so) has had a mediocre trigger with a longer-than-necessary reset.
3. Compact.
One of the gun's greatest qualities and one sadly ignored by most top-tier manufacturers today. The P7 literally disappears with the right holster. I know more than one person who CCWs with a P7 in a pocket holster.
4. Full-size barrel. Despite this gun's compact size it has a full 4-inch barrel.
5. Fixed-barrel. This gun lacks the tilting barrel assembly of most other full-sized guns. This lends the gun exceptional accuracy. In combination with the aforementioned trigger, this barrel makes the P7 ultra-accurate.
Again, have to agree. The P7 is phenomenally accurate.
6. Low recoil. This is debatable. I have always felt that this has the least recoil of any 9mm. Some disagree, most don't. This is likely result of the guns low bore/axis and gas system (although some say the gas system should have no effect).
This has not been my experience. While the gun is certainly shootable, the relatively heavy recoil spring detracts from maximum speed.
7. Tough! This gun is CNC milled from a solid steel forging. The gun is so solid it could be used as a nasty set of brass knuckles in a pinch. Without picking one up it is hard to imagine how solid this little gun feels. When I had mine hard-chromed the smith complained endlessly about how hard the P7 was to machine.
Tough to an extent. However, the gun's dependable service life is lower than more modern designs. There aren't many people with 30k through a P7M8.
8. Excellent sight radius. Although the gun is short, HK maximized the sight radius by pushing the sights as far apart as practically possible.
Can't argue with that.
9. Oddball manual of arms confuses bad guys and know it all buddies.
Very true and there are certainly documented accounts of officers being saved by a fumbling criminal after a successful gun grab. However, the flipside is that the P7 does not easily integrate into a wider battery of handguns. For a dedicated user it's great. For someone who bounces from gun to gun, the P7 can be challenging.
10. Chamber fluting allows the gun to function even if the extractor is broken. This feature really makes you think when you are trying to determine which gun you want to bet you life on (no offense, but this a much more serious advantage than being able to freeze the gun in a bucket of ice or whatever).
While I agree that the frozen bucket stuff is silly marketing hype, the question to ask here is how often do you see broken extractors on other guns? Sure it happens, and sure the fluted chamber could make a difference, but its practical value is pretty close to zero.
11. Easily childproofed. The P7's striker can be removed without tools (and without any other disassembly of the gun). The striker can be re-inserted into the gun in roughly 1 second. This could be a major consideration to those of us with small children and stupid friends.
I can take the slide off of most guns in just a couple of seconds, too. Again, I would chalk this up in the "but how often does it really happen?" column.
12. Ambidextrous. With the exception of the slide catch and take down buttons, every model of the P7 is completely ambidextrous.
While no longer a unique feature (M&P, HK P2000/HK45/P30, etc.) it was absolutely ground breaking in its day.
13. Ultra-fast magazine release. This has to be experienced to be understood. Rambo types complained about the PSP’s lack of rapid magazine release. HK, Germans that they are, decided to give them what they wanted—a magazine that ejects so fast and powerfully that they could be used as back-up projectiles in an emergency.
14. Ultra fast slide release. Simply squeeze the handle and the slide will be released.
I'm assuming you mean the forcefulness of the ejection and not the actual speed with which one can actuate the relatively small lever with its unorthodox manual of arms. While I'm sure it can be accomplished easily enough with dedicated training, its speed (better or worse) is going to depend more on skill and hand size than any true mechanical advantage. Dropping the slide on a P7 after a reload, though, is essentially a zero-time and zero-effort action.
15. 110 degree grip angle gives the gun natural pointability. 110 degree grip angle makes the gun point just like you finger.
The more time I spend with different shooters using different guns, the less I believe there is a "natural" grip angle for a handgun. I've met too many people who swear the Glock points naturally and too many people who swear a SIG points naturally -- and they're much different -- to come to any other conclusion. Pointability is much more about habituation than instinct, IMHO.
16. Low profile slide. The P7’s low profile slide means that there is very little recoiling mass relative to the frame. This, along with the above mentioned 110-degree grip angle makes reacquiring targets a breeze with the P7.
As I mentioned above, I personally don't find the P7 especially quick on follow-up shots.
1. The gun gets uncomfortably hot after 60 (or so) rapid shots. More of a training problem than a "real world" consideration.
Nonetheless, if you want to train with your gun so you'll be ready for those "real world considerations" then it's a problem. A good friend of mine -- and absolute P7 fanatic with something like a dozen of them in his safe -- had to bring multiple P7M8's with him when we went to Blackwater years back. Every few drills, he'd swap to a different gun, keeping the others in an ice-packed cooler.
2. Finish lacks durability. Blued finish wears quickly and is very little protection against corrosion.
Sadly, a common problem for guns of that vintage. On the plus side, a hard chromed P7 makes grown men weep with joy.
3. Very expensive. At over $1000, this gun is out of the range of many buyers.
Like me, I'm sure you've been in crowds of guys with $3k+ 1911s on their belts who will nonetheless say that P7s are too expensive. :rolleyes:
4. The gun's design is such that it gets dirty quickly when shot.
5. The gun malfunctions when not maintained properly. While this is true of all guns, the P7 seems to be more sensitive than most modern autos. The solution is to keep the gas cylinder clean.
I'd be doomed right there. Anything that needs to be cleaned more than once every 2,000 rounds or so will never work for me. :cool:
6. The P7's cocking lever emits a click when released.
As I have never been a ninja, I will not comment because this is out of my lane.
7. Low capacity. Except in now unavailable M13 (LEO only) and M10 (discontinued for ugliness), capacity is limited to 9 rounds (with one in chamber).
More bullets always better. But I have to admit I could probably walk around with a P7M8 and feel adequately armed, especially with a couple of spare mags on my belt. Ideal? No. Practical? Yes.
8. Grip screws come loose too easily. Use lock-tite.
Problem & solution.
9. Can't use lead bullets (see cleanliness issues above).
Luckily, this will only affect a small percentage of users. I don't like to be around lead shooters, anyway.
10. Slide lock button too small for some.
I don't know if it's just a matter of getting used to it, but I've had a devil of a time with it on occasion and then a few days later I pick one up and it's nearly instinctive.
11. Magazine release on M8/M13 too sensitive to careless holstering (accidental magazine ejection). PSP model doesn't suffer from this (Euro-magazine catch).
I've never seen that, good to know.
12. During an emergency a user might accidentally squeeze the trigger while squeezing the cocking lever. I personally think this isn't a problem.
This was the subject that made me want to write a reply. This is an issue and many instructors have seen it. My recollection is that at one point, John Farnam stopped letting new students bring P7s to class because it had happened so often. Sympathetic grip is a reality. The "always keep your finger off the trigger" mantra only goes so far because, whether we want to accept it or not, we all know that some people under some conditions will screw it up. One may choose to write them all off as ignorant buggers but the reality is that it happens nonetheless.
13. For some, seriously ham-fisted users, the gun might be accidentally disassembled if the take down button is inadvertently pressed while the slide is being racked. This is extremely unlikely, however, it can be done with practice.
I did this the very first time I tried to load a P7 ... didn't even know where the take down button was at the time.
14. Disassembly not for mere mortals. A "detail strip"
... should be performed only by trained master watchmakers.
There, fixed that for you. :cool: I do agree that for a normal user, it's a non-issue.
15. Possible difficulty depressing cocking lever with weak or injured hands. My father has weakness in his right hand related to a stroke he had a few years ago. For a while he was unable to cock my M8. On the other hand, once the lever is squeezed it only takes about a pound and a half to keep it cocked.
It would be interesting to see how well one could shoot with such a reduced grip on the gun that it wouldn't be sufficient to cock it in the first place.
the1911fan
04-04-09, 01:26
P7 PSP...one left
http://www.summitgunbroker.com/H_K_P7.html
I actually used to sell quite a few M8's and M13's back in the day, and guys shot and carried them.
I actually have seen one loose it's extractor and keep on running without a problem.
Ejection pattern became erratic, but who cares.....damn thing kept running. :cool:
Does it happen often? No. Is it nice that the system keeps running even if you loose the extractor? Yes.
I agree with some of the things that are said I do wish it had a high cap mag. I still find it to be the easiest gun to carry for ccw's I have a glock 19 I still find my self take the P7 out and the glock stays home. Now don't get me wrong the 19 is a great gun also, I have no complaints with it. If you have a P7 let's see them. Also when I go to knob creek for the MGS you would be surprised how many people will stop and ask to look at it and then wants to buy it. I was told I have a rare P7 (it's not the one in the pic) it was a factory hard chromed P7. Now don't know how true this but if anyone knows if this is fact let me know.
Be prepared to spend some money on some good leather. The P7 series is very butt heavy, especially the M8 and M13's. You really need a good design to pull the butt back into you.
Kramer, DelFatti and Mitch Rosen are the names I hear the most, and I'm partial to Kramer's horsehide stuff.
Thanks for the info. Money is of no concern. ;)
C4
11. Easily childproofed. The P7's striker can be removed without tools (and without any other disassembly of the gun). The striker can be re-inserted into the gun in roughly 1 second. This could be a major consideration to those of us with small children and stupid friends.
I carried a P7 PSP in the 80s and have had six of them. I like them. It is a great pistol to carry concealed and easy to shoot well. I accepted it's quirks and was happy to carry it. I carried a Browning HP before that, so the P7 was more concealable, but not as much as you would think - the HP carries and shoots well. (Carry a Glock, now.)
Having said that, I wouldn't want to "sell" someone on this gun based on the #11 point above. I've removed and reinstalled the striker assembly plenty of times on the PSP models (never had an M8) and it's easy to misalign. You have to visually look at the orientation of the cut on the assembly to line it up and yes, sometimes it can be done in 1 second, sometimes, it takes 2 or 3 tries to get it lined up properly where it doesn't cant to the right. And hope that the striker hasn't rotated in the assembly in the process, whereby you have to pull it back and rotate it back into the notch before it will go in.
(Like I said, these were all PSPs - maybe it's different on the M8.)
I wouldn't rely on that at all for child-proofing the gun if I might need it in a hurry.
If I wanted to keep a gun "child-proofed" and still accessible in a hurry, I can insert a magazine and rack the slide much faster and more reliably on any pistol. Plus - it can be done in the dark. Try inserting the striker assembly on a P7 quickly. And firing. And repeat the process 10 times. And try it in the dark.
Again, I love the P7, but I think relying on disabling it by removing the striker assembly can prove very disappointing if you need it in a hurry.
Great thread.
I have a P7 (PSP-type). Don't shoot it much, but I do like it.
We had a similar thread few months ago.
I think that Todd, as usual, is spot on.
The two other cons are:
- heavy recoil spring makes it nearly impossible to manipulate pistol one-handed
- service: parts are scarce; there is very little of local expertise and one is forced to send gun to HK; lifetime warranty extends only to original owners; despite reports of improved customer service at HK, I had mixed feelings dealing with them when my P7M8 went down last year.
I've been thinking of selling mine, but I am not sure I can recoup the cost since I had bought it brand-new at full retail price. Additionally, this is my first-ever firearm, so it has a sentimental value. However, having gone through one training class with it, I am unlikely to do it again, and I only carry it when my attire requires a slim carry pistol.
Does it happen often? No. Is it nice that the system keeps running even if you loose the extractor? Yes.
I'd say the complete lack of fluted pistol chambers post-P7, and the resultant silent echo of complaints, pretty much shows us where the market went on that issue. Don't get me wrong, I agree it would be really important if you had the awful luck to break an extractor in the middle of some anti-social gathering. But there are a lot of other parts that are more likely to fail on a properly maintained service pistol than the extractor.
- heavy recoil spring makes it nearly impossible to manipulate pistol one-handed
Excellent point.
- service: parts are scarce; there is very little of local expertise and one is forced to send gun to HK
Also an excellent point. Key spare parts are traded as commodities on the Chicago Exchange, I thin. :cool:
I've been thinking of selling mine,
I wouldn't go that far. The P7 is certainly a fantastic pistol and an amazing example of firearm engineering. I'd put it near the bottom of my "guns I'll sell when I have to" list, personally.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-04-09, 10:14
2. During an emergency a user might accidentally squeeze the trigger while squeezing the cocking lever. I personally think this isn't a problem.
This was the subject that made me want to write a reply. This is an issue and many instructors have seen it. My recollection is that at one point, John Farnam stopped letting new students bring P7s to class because it had happened so often. Sympathetic grip is a reality.
Farnam also says as much in his book on handguns. An ND always seemed much more likely to me in the Glock-style triggers. Of course, Mr. F would probably lose a lot of business if he banned "safe-actions." I know Farnam leaned so heavily towards the safety end of the spectrum that he seemed to favor DA/SA designs like the SIG. But then I saw him carrying a Kahr.
The "always keep your finger off the trigger" mantra only goes so far because, whether we want to accept it or not, we all know that some people under some conditions will screw it up. One may choose to write them all off as ignorant buggers but the reality is that it happens nonetheless.
Agreed, that is what I have said for years about Glocks but usually get dirty looks.
Quote:
13. For some, seriously ham-fisted users, the gun might be accidentally disassembled if the take down button is inadvertently pressed while the slide is being racked. This is extremely unlikely, however, it can be done with practice.
I did this the very first time I tried to load a P7 ... didn't even know where the take down button was at the time.
I STILL have not been able to do this. But again, the P7 was my first pistol so I think it is the "natural" for me.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-04-09, 10:41
11. Easily childproofed. The P7's striker can be removed without tools (and without any other disassembly of the gun). The striker can be re-inserted into the gun in roughly 1 second. This could be a major consideration to those of us with small children and stupid friends.
I can take the slide off of most guns in just a couple of seconds, too. Again, I would chalk this up in the "but how often does it really happen?" column.
I just thought this was neat.
Dropping the slide on a P7 after a reload, though, is essentially a zero-time and zero-effort action.
Not to mention it just makes you feel 3x more awesome.
15. 110 degree grip angle gives the gun natural pointability. 110 degree grip angle makes the gun point just like you finger.
The more time I spend with different shooters using different guns, the less I believe there is a "natural" grip angle for a handgun. I've met too many people who swear the Glock points naturally and too many people who swear a SIG points naturally -- and they're much different -- to come to any other conclusion. Pointability is much more about habituation than instinct, IMHO.
I completely agree with you on this. So much of what makes guns "better" is raw habituation.
Along similar lines, Todd could shoot a Colt All-American 2000 or Vp70z better than I can shoot my Novak's 1911s. But that doesn't mean I would do better off to buy that AA2000 that has been on the shelf for 20 years (the tag says it is collectable).
Nonetheless, if you want to train with your gun so you'll be ready for those "real world considerations" then it's a problem. A good friend of mine -- and absolute P7 fanatic with something like a dozen of them in his safe -- had to bring multiple P7M8's with him when we went to Blackwater years back. Every few drills, he'd swap to a different gun, keeping the others in an ice-packed cooler.
Todd, I see your point. This was aimed at the internet commandos who tried to use this fact to dismiss the P7 as a usable gun. It is certainly a real consideration. In fact, I was attacked by P7 folks when I wrote this list for including this on the list. One guy on the Firing Line said I had never shot a P7.
Of course, I have been to Hackathorn classes and Vickers classes where this would not have been an issue. I have been to at least one class (TR figiting pistol:rolleyes:) where I would have been carried off to the burn unit.
2. Finish lacks durability. Blued finish wears quickly and is very little protection against corrosion.
Sadly, a common problem for guns of that vintage. On the plus side, a hard chromed P7 makes grown men weep with joy.
This is something else that has changed in my mind over the years. I think hostile environment finishes are extremely over-valued. I used to sit up nights worrying about my blued guns. ("OMG, did I leave a finger print on it! Did I sweat on it IWB?") I have long since bought some steel wool and beer with the money I was wasting on finishes.
Quote:
3. Very expensive. At over $1000, this gun is out of the range of many buyers.
Like me, I'm sure you've been in crowds of guys with $3k+ 1911s on their belts who will nonetheless say that P7s are too expensive.
So true.
6. The P7's cocking lever emits a click when released.
As I have never been a ninja, I will not comment because this is out of my lane.
LOL
Anyone looking for a P7 should check out CDNN....they have a bunch of excellent-like new pistols for less than $600.
They also have some with different slide finishes for those that fear the standard finish
I have two of these excellent pistols (just got second one from CDNN). They are the one firearm I own that I can pick up and shoot one ragged hole with every time despite having neglected my training with them.
Unlike going back to my Glocks after shooting my 1911's a lot;)
I almost have to be retrained:o
When taking newbies shooting they invariably shoot best with the P7 even when it is not their favorite (for whatever reason)
I actually think the squeeze cocker promotes a better grip especially for inexperienced shooters
The heat issue has never bothered me, but then again I ususally go with the quality over quantity approach (especially with an 8 +1 weapon):D
I am not real anal about cleaning any of my weapons, but I have never had a malfunction.
Parts are available and while I made it a point to obtain the recommended spares, I have never had to replace anything
My first one was one of the German border patrol guns from some years back and I have since hard chromed it, although I was having no issues with corrosion.
I do tend to clean this one better now that it is sooo easy to see the crud against the chrome
They are not perfect (nothing is), but they are (IMHO) the best thing HK ever built
6. The P7's cocking lever emits a click when released. This is more of an issue with SEAL wannabes than real people. The theory is that the noise will alert the bad guys to your presence..
You left out the part that it will strike terror into the bad guys just like the slide racking of a shotgun:eek:
Now, this is very tangential, but the discussion above reminded me of something I had wanted to learn about: does fluted chamber make brass non-reloadable? In addition to my M8, I also plan on having a 1911 built around Schuemann barrel that also has fluted chamber. I do not reload, and generally tend to use Blazer, but, due to recent changes in market, I've started to save my brass. I apologize for slight hijack, but my back wants to know if it is worth all that bending...
I wouldn't go that far. The P7 is certainly a fantastic pistol and an amazing example of firearm engineering. I'd put it near the bottom of my "guns I'll sell when I have to" list, personally.
Thanks for advice, Todd. You are right that it is probably worth keeping just on grounds of uniqueness of engineering and merits described above in this thread.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-04-09, 11:31
On the NDs, I thought that would be an issue, but after having and shooting one I really think it is a non-issue. You still have to pull the trigger, right? You still have to grip the gun, right? To me, to hold the gun right, I'm depressing the squeeze cock. Wouldn't these people have an ND if they gripped a glock in the same way? In the same vein, I'm not going to count on a BG being unable to get a round off, though it is heavy enough to beat someone with.
To me, the manual of arms is pick up the gun and hold it.
I do have to say that the trigger on my P7 is not great. Maybe if you only come from long DA/SA guns would it seem good. The take up and break aren't bad, but the reset is looong on mine.
I'd love to see a new version, maybe some polymer to get the weight down.
Todd- got a line on the pocker holster your buddies use.
sigmundsauer
04-04-09, 11:39
I had an adolescent love affair with the P7. I always dreamed of owning one someday, and thought they were both intriguing and aesthetically beautiful. Decades later my thoughts have not changed. I never gave myself cause to own one until about two years ago when the general consensus was that HK was going to discontinue them. So, I gathered my riches and [over]spent it on one of the alleged "final 500." I always thought the P7 was a little gimmicky and presumed other pistols were generally better all-around fighting guns. After owning one, I feel only the latter is true.
However, I will say that the first time a shot my P7 it was magical. For never owning or handling one previously I instantly picked up the pistol and it pointed more instinctively than any other handgun that has ever graced my hands. With no habituation, I could draw the pistol with my eyes closed, point it, and the sights would be perfectly aligned to my intended target. Everyone's hands are different, but it was magical.
The recoil impulse is unique. I have concluded that it is lighter and faster than any other gun I have ever shot. But the gas system has a tendency to give it a very sharp initial recoil impulse as the gun and slide recoil rearward together, much like a revolver, and then once the gas system evacuates the recoil has a releasing sensation. In slow fire with lighter grips it is very lively, but when I clamp down on the gun like I normally do when shooting dynamically there is not a pistol that will recoil and return to battery with the sights completely steadied faster than a P7 in my hands. In fact, the P7 is so fast that it is on target ready to fire before I am. I pick up SIGs, HKs, Glocks, Berettas, regardless, I am always waiting on the sights to return to target before I can pull the trigger again. The P7 is just magically there after pulling the trigger. It is the one pistol that really sped up my rate of accurate fire, and was hard for my mental timing to keep up with.
I stopped shooting it in IDPA because my support hand index finger would wrap around so tightly that I would occasionally, inadvertently strike the mag release and dump the mag. Not the gun's fault, but a malfunction nonetheless as a result of incompatibility with my particular shooting style. But, wow, is that gun fast and accurate.
Curiously, with its rather unique manual of arms, my learning curve was virtually instantaneous with it. I shoot aggressively with a very firm grip, and I essentially made no mental adaptations in order to shoot the P7 well. It was entirely intuitive, but that's just me.
With all the downsides already mentioned, the only one that causes me to choose other pistols over the P7 is its low mag capacity and my tendency to dump mags inadvertently. Finish, heat, and other peculiarities I can live with and work around. I could never give up my P7M8.
Tim
baffle Stack
04-04-09, 12:37
Although all the main points have been touched on, I will reiterate what was said and add my personal experience.
I have accidentally dissasembled the gun while charging it from the slide serrations. It can happen and I am not ham fisted by any means. I am 5'4'' and my hands are proportional. This was easily remedied by simply charging the weapon from in front of the ejection port. Your charging hand has to get a damn good grip on that tiny slide to overcome the heavy recoil spring, thus lending to the chances of accidentally engaging the disassemble button.
I carry mine in the M-tac. Good holster, fast shipping and good price.
Magazines are priced like "pre-ban GLOCK mags":eek: from years back. Prepare to pay about $50-$60 a piece. They are however good quality and should last. Just make sure to get the one for your model. THe M8 and the PSP mags are not interchangeable.
Trigger reset not too great. Better than a SA/DA, worse than a GLOCK.
Overall, I wish I could afford another:cool:
i want one so bad. but i can't justify it over my G19 and G26. :o
sommmmeday.
I love my PSP. I just wish I could find a few mags for less than $120 a pop.
I paid around $45 each for mine
I grab them every time I see them:D
They come and they go
Ever since I started shooting (back when I was 10) I have lusted after one of these wondrous creatures. Started collecting memorabilia for them in the early 90's, and have some really cool vintage HK promo posters for them.
I finally picked up an excellent (almost NIB) M8 from our very own Greg Bell, Esq. sometime last year. The piece is simply magnificent. It has a pretty cool serial number too.
In regards to some of the issues discussed thus far I will throw out my experiences:
-It has a really nice trigger on it, sort of like a cross between a Chuck Rogers tuned 1911 and a vintage Colt Python. The reset is long, however. Nothing that causes me any problems.
-Mine does not like my preferred load, the 127 gr. +p+ Ranger. It seems as though the case may expand a bit much for the fluted chamber and it doesn't like to extract the fired case at all times. So, I simply load it with 124 gr. Gold Dot's and have no problems with that round.
-Sights are dead on and I don't want to muck about with them, so I just blacked out the rear dots and dabbed a bit of luminescent paint on the front ala HK45 style.
-It does get dirty when you put some rounds through it (I clean it every 200 per P7 Guru Bell). Since cleaning guns relaxes em and I'm the department armorer this is a non issue as well. However, I have noticed that the mags get especially dirty and that is the only part of the platform that gives me any grief, cleaning wise.
-It does have the blued finish (mine is in like new condition) and if I ever decide to carry it on a regular basis I will get it Black-T'd due to my environmental conditions.
-On the note of ninjas and the noise when the piece is de-cocked: I was having a conversation with a retired ninja the other day and he mentioned that his former employer did not give them a look due to this alleged problem. I mentioned that if you cleared a house with the weapon not cocked and simply cocked it when you were about to engage the threat this would not be a problem. Then I showed him how do de-cock while maintaining noise discipline (both ideas shamelessly stolen from Greg, yet again) you needn't worry about it. He said he wished he had thought of that back then as he had always been intrigued by the design, but was very well served and still happy with his G19.
While I have gotten rid of some truly unique/rare firearms, this particular M8 is definitely on the sell only in the event of catastrophic emergency category.
I love German staple guns.
My PSP with Bulman leather:
http://hudsdad.com/pics/p7a.jpg
http://hudsdad.com/pics/p7b.jpg
I love German staple guns.
My PSP with Bulman leather:
http://hudsdad.com/pics/p7a.jpg
http://hudsdad.com/pics/p7b.jpg
nice :D
Army Chief
04-06-09, 11:57
I've owned the M8, M10, M13 and original P7 (what we Americans seem hell-bent on calling the PSP -- which it isn't). All were fine pistols, but the one that I still keep close by is the Gen 1 P7. The heel catch mag release doesn't bother me in the least, the lines are even more compact, and unless I'm doing something unusual with it, the lack of a heat shield isn't really an issue.
Any P7 variant is worth owning, but oddly enough, the longer I've been around them, the more my preference runs toward the pre-M series. If a better CCW piece has been made -- including my Wilson SDS -- I've yet to find it.
AC
does anyone have a p7 for sale?
...original P7 (what we Americans seem hell-bent on calling the PSP -- which it isn't).
Hey now, that's why I called mine a "PSP-type" P7 earlier in the thread! I know it's not a PSP, but it's what most Americans would call a PSP!
:D
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-06-09, 15:07
does anyone have a p7 for sale?
Not any more.
Calling it a PSP is just to simplify that it's not an M8 (or M13) and has the heel-release. Technically, other than the earliest models, they are just called the P7, but when you say PSP, everyone knows what you're referring to.
HK even refers to them as "PSP" models.
HK even refers to them as "PSP" models.
Yep. A couple months ago, someone from HK told me, "We have a warehouse full of PSPs." I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking about portable gaming systems.
John_Wayne777
04-06-09, 19:01
Yep. A couple months ago, someone from HK told me, "We have a warehouse full of PSPs." I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking about portable gaming systems.
If they're willing to part with one at a price somewhat less than rape, tell them to give me a call.....:D
John,
I assume they are just the police surplus models that are selling through CDNN, etc. They are stamped HK USA.
Army Chief
04-07-09, 00:26
Hey now, that's why I called mine a "PSP-type" P7 earlier in the thread! I know it's not a PSP, but it's what most Americans would call a PSP!
:D
I noticed. :) Like you, I tend to say "PSP form factor" just to make things clear.
Admittedly, I'm in Germany, so it is a fairly important distinction to make over here. If you're in a market where actual PSPs were never really available (i.e. USA), then I suppose it is easier to just consider everything prior to the M series a PSP, since P7 will only invite the follow-on question "really? Which one?"
As a practical matter, I definitely follow the logic. In the technical sense, however, a P7 isn't a PSP -- and vice versa -- whether HK USA has long since given up on trying to make the distinction or not. Not exactly a big deal, but those who develop an affinity for these little heaters are often surprised to learn that the PSP was actually a separate model, and that the P7 itself went through two major iterations (and several minor internal tweaks) before most of us ever even saw one on American shores.
AC
johnnywitt
04-07-09, 23:55
P7's can be uncocked without the click. Pull back the slide a hair and let off the cocker. Walla.
As far as being childproof, of course there is no such thing. The P7 however is pretty close. A small child just cannot get there hands around the squeez cocker and then apply the 14lbs of pressure it takes to cock. That being said, I don't just leave mine laying out on the nightstand for my 2.5 yr old.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-08-09, 16:26
Anybody been able to get on ParkCitiesTactical lately? Forum is not working and I was looking for the link to the guy who has mags. I'd like to buy 1 for 2 total. There are only HK OEM mags, or are there offbrand. Wish Mecgar would get in on it.
Anybody been able to get on ParkCitiesTactical lately? Forum is not working and I was looking for the link to the guy who has mags. I'd like to buy 1 for 2 total. There are only HK OEM mags, or are there offbrand. Wish Mecgar would get in on it.
PCT has been down for almost 2 weeks. They are currently working on fixing the server issue and it should be back up soon.
johnnywitt
04-08-09, 18:13
Anybody been able to get on ParkCitiesTactical lately? Forum is not working and I was looking for the link to the guy who has mags. I'd like to buy 1 for 2 total. There are only HK OEM mags, or are there offbrand. Wish Mecgar would get in on it.
There are off brand, but you don't want them. The HK P7 mags are some of the most well constructed mags that have ever been produced. Maybe THE best. I too am looking for P7 OEM Mags. You would think with the flood of surplus German Police Guns that either there would be a commensurate amount of surplus mags as well. Did they just import the pistols and not the mags. Doesn't seem like it would be a problem with even the Obama administration on importing an 8rd mag.
Picked it up from CDNN about two months ago, absolutely love this gun. Every specimen I've seen from them has been in excellent condition, $660.00 shipped. Always wanted one.
http://homepage.mac.com/carver/images/p7psp.jpg
Picked it up from CDNN about two months ago, absolutely love this gun. Every specimen I've seen from them has been in excellent condition, $660.00 shipped. Always wanted one.
http://homepage.mac.com/carver/images/p7psp.jpg
Nice grips! Where did you get them?
C4
I have now tracked down TWO M8's at really smoking good prices! Got NEW M8 mags for $49 apiece as well. :D
C4
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-09-09, 17:28
Grant,
I don't see any P7 stuff on your site at all? Any interest in becoming the go-to place for P7 stuff? You can always skim the best stuff of the top. Does CDNN have a lock on imports?
Grant,
I don't see any P7 stuff on your site at all? Any interest in becoming the go-to place for P7 stuff? You can always skim the best stuff of the top. Does CDNN have a lock in imports?
I was not planning on it as I simply cannot keep up with what I have already.
C4
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-09-09, 17:45
It seems like P7 stuff is just another thing that would be impossible to keep in stock. Keep an eye out for mags for us!
Just talked to a friend of a friend a few weeks back, he was interested in having me list his P7 on gunbroker for him. He never followed up though. I'll try to get back in touch with him.
I don't have any real details on the gun, other then fondled much, shot little.:D
An interesting pistol to be sure. While it does cost more than the typical Glock or Sig, that isn't the problem with this gun as I see it. It isn't even to cost of parts or magazines. It's avaliability of spare parts. You can't just walk into your local gunstore and ask for a few mags or springs. Most of the time you have to order them or really look online. This is the only reason why I have been playing with the idea of selling/trading my P7. After all, if one spring gives out and I have no spare, the pistol just becomes a very pretty paperweight.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-11-09, 16:35
You can't just walk into your local gunstore and ask for a few mags or springs.
In my area (GA)that would leave you with just Glock--MAYBE.
An interesting pistol to be sure. While it does cost more than the typical Glock or Sig, that isn't the problem with this gun as I see it. It isn't even to cost of parts or magazines. It's avaliability of spare parts. You can't just walk into your local gunstore and ask for a few mags or springs. Most of the time you have to order them or really look online. This is the only reason why I have been playing with the idea of selling/trading my P7. After all, if one spring gives out and I have no spare, the pistol just becomes a very pretty paperweight.
how much will it take to buy your P7
rtb1073, I think we better take this conversation to PM as this isn't the classifieds section.
BTW PM sent.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.