Red dot position - forward or back?

[dookie1481]

I read this article (http://www.usshootingacademy.com/CM_Files/FIGHTING%20THROUGH%20THE%20RING%20by%20Erik%20Lund.pdf) and I'm curious as to what you guys think. Seems to me that if you are shooting with both eyes open it shouldn't be much of an issue.

Jay

[Failure2Stop]

Eye relief is a critical component regardless of what type of sighting system you are using. Using a red-dot sight (RDS) is different than using iron sights, but eye-relief does come into play. The closer the eye is to the sight the more forgiving the sight will be when trying to pick up the dot. This becomes a greater issue when in unconventional positions or running the gun as fast as possible.

Placement of the optic is a series of compromises.
Keep in mind that while you may be shooting with both eyes open, one of those eyes needs to be able to see through the sight to the target.

[AllanRR]

Good question. I recently changed from using an ML3 to a T1 and mounted it in the same position the old RDS was.

Initially, I took a bit more time in acquiring the dot (but I knew this was due to the slightly smaller diameter of the T1 plus I haven't had any time to bring it to the range and practice with it.)

As far as the T1's position on the top rail, I've been trying to figure that one out too. I'm trying to balance the..., um..., "aesthetics" of how it looks mounted on the rifle:D (yeah, I know, I know:D:D:p ) and the proper position and the "science" behind it.

My old ML3 on a Larue mount was positioned in such a way that it was mounted as far back on the rail while leaving enough room for me to mount an Aimpoint 3x, which was mounted right in front of the rear sight. I may just do the same with the T1 and then bring it to the range and see how I like the setup.

Looking forward to what others have to say on the subject.


A

[M4Fundi]

I would love to hear opinions on this also. I have been told the further forward the faster it is, blah, blah, blah, but I've seen some of these 3Gun Unlimited Class guys with the Aimpoint mounted in front of the receiver out on the barrel of their shotguns, so I'm guessing there is some theory that its a good thing to have it mounted far forward. I run an M2 Aimpoint as far possible on my receiver, but I really do not notice that much difference between the middle and far end of the receiver, but was thinking of maybe getting the larue Cantilever mount for my N4 to have the possibility of of getting it a bit further forward.

[QuickStrike]

I would love to hear opinions on this also.....I run an M2 Aimpoint as far possible on my receiver

+1. I'd always just put it that way, copied it off of photos with "cool guy weapons". Would like to hear some opinions before moving my RDS and mucking up the zero.

[RogerinTPA]

RDS placement is a personal preference as far as your individual ability to acquire the dot, and engage the target accurately. Mine are positioned over the mag well area and the position most comfortable for me. Try moving it around, shooting it and find out which position works best for you.

[M4Fundi]

Just because it is a personal preference does not mean that there are not pros and cons for both close and far and its nice to be able to think about those things while moving it around to better come to an educated decision. I saw on another forum a guy had a $3k IPSC gun that was beautiful only he had the Fiber Optic front site on backwards. I'm sure it worked well for him so he thought until someone educated him on how to better use a Brazos Gunworks FO sight. :p I'm not asking for someone to tell me where it "HAS" to go but what are the schools of thought on where to place it.

[Failure2Stop]

I'm not asking for someone to tell me where it "HAS" to go but what are the schools of thought on where to place it.

I like to have different optic types in different places.

Standard Aimpoints and EoTechs I prefer as far forward on the upper receiver as possible. Some of this has to do with weight distribution, but just as much has to do with field of dot (I say field of dot instead of field of view since using both eyes makes FOV irrelevant though there is only so much space available through which the dot is usable) and blocked vision. The amount of body material around the lens of the Aimpoints blocks vision and distorts perception to a degree, and is more prevalent the further from the eye the optic is.

If a magnifier is to be used I like a cantilever mount that places the optic over the slip-ring area, 50/50 split between the upper and HG, with the base flush with the end of the rails on the upper. This gives me enough room to place the magnifier behind the optic without having to alter cheek-weld or head/eye position. While I do not prefer the non magnified Aimpoint in this location it is still very workable.

For the mini red-dots (MRDs) I like them placed as far to the rear as I can get them. The rearward placement negates the issue with having a smaller tube diameter, is way easier to use than even the 0-2 sight, and the combination of its light weight and rearward placement makes the gun very quick.

For magnified or variable optics I place the optic so that the eye relief is perfect with my nose about 1/2 inch off the charging handle. Doing so makes the initial aggressive presentation closer to the eye than it "should" be, but gives me more field of view than if I accidentally present the gun with my head too far back and get uniform scope-shadow. I would rather sacrifice a teensy bit of accuracy on an immediate threat than risk the chance of blocking the threat with scope shadow. If I need to work a precision shot I can just work my head back a bit to the optimal eye-relief position.

[theJanitor]

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=24605&highlight=fighting+ring

[M4Fundi]

Failure2Stop Thats great info!
I don't understand how "The amount of body material around the lens of the Aimpoints blocks vision and distorts perception to a degree, and is more prevalent the FURTHER from the eye the optic is." It would seem to me the CLOSER to the eye would geometrically block more angle of view.

The MRD info is especially helpful as it would make sense to me to bring the lower profile in closer and increase the speed of acquiring the RD as this was one of my worries with the T1...I think I had it too far forward and wasn't finding it as quickly as my M2 which was a concern. I will try one next time closer.

Not having ever used a 3x Magnifier that swings it totally makes sense that the eye relief on that optic would control the RD placement (unless you can have the 3x optic and the RD optic at variable distance from each other????)

Great Info Thanx for Y'all's Patience;)

Janitor I will read your link thanks!

[bkb0000]

forward on the receiver gives you decent objective size without killing perhipheral vision.. mineses sit on risers above the barrel extension.

[dookie1481]

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=24605&highlight=fighting+ring

Of course I should have searched. Thank you, sir.

Jay

[Failure2Stop]

Failure2Stop Thats great info!
I don't understand how "The amount of body material around the lens of the Aimpoints blocks vision and distorts perception to a degree, and is more prevalent the FURTHER from the eye the optic is." It would seem to me the CLOSER to the eye would geometrically block more angle of view.


Try this out-
Make a "ok" sign with your right hand, with the "hole" in your index finger just slightly smaller than a dime. Hold the hole about 1 inch away from your dominant eye.

The other eye fills in the image blocked by the bulk of the finger, making the finger appear transparent.

Now move your hand a foot away from your eye and look through the hole. While the other eye still makes up for the blocked image, the finger seems to be more opaque.

Moving the optic further away also makes it a bit harder to find the dot due to the reduction in angle of acceptable eye placement.