View Full Version : What would you do in a training course?
Guys,
I've been daydreaming lately about one of those 3 day tactical carbine courses...so I've also been reading up on them. This site has an impressive list of the various companies that offer them.
While reading through the course outline for one of them, I read something I'd never seen before. They encouraged their attendees to bring only quality ammo. They said that there are always guys who bring crap ammo and they're the ones who hold up the class with feed problems, jams, etc.
Having only taken a one day course last year, I'm in no position to comment on this statement. But it seems to go against what I think I've always read here...that guys usually buy cheap ammo when they go for training.
Just wondering if you wouldn't mind giving me your opinions.
This is not a Wolf thread.
theres a difference between "cheap" and inexpensive. All inexpensive ammo is not crap ammo.
Bob
I always shoot my own loads. Some instructors advise against using reloads in class because sure as shit there's been some booger eater who had bad loads and dragged the class down.
There isn't much decent ammo out there now for training.
If I'm putting out the time and expenses for a training experience, I'm not taking anything that's going to compromise it. Buy the best ammo you can afford. Do what you have to do to afford it.
In most classes, I'll use the same gun, optic, mag pouch, etc for the duration, but I'll be using 1,000 individual cartridges. I want the best chance of keeping murphy out of all of them.
(I'm prepping for a 5-day class out of town next week. There's two cases of BHA 55gr FMJ and JSP at my feet for it.)
John_Wayne777
04-06-09, 19:13
Guys,
I've been daydreaming lately about one of those 3 day tactical carbine courses...so I've also been reading up on them. This site has an impressive list of the various companies that offer them.
While reading through the course outline for one of them, I read something I'd never seen before. They encouraged their attendees to bring only quality ammo. They said that there are always guys who bring crap ammo and they're the ones who hold up the class with feed problems, jams, etc.
Having only taken a one day course last year, I'm in no position to comment on this statement. But it seems to go against what I think I've always read here...that guys usually buy cheap ammo when they go for training.
Just wondering if you wouldn't mind giving me your opinions.
This is not a Wolf thread.
Having been through quite a bit of training, I would make this suggestion:
Only take ammo that you know A. Functions and B. Functions reliably in your weapon. The problem a lot of folks have is buying a bunch of training ammo that they have never run through their gun, and then they show up at class and have thousands of rounds of ammo that is utterly useless in their blaster. They save 50 bucks on the purchase price of the ammo, but spend the entire course fighting with their equipment and generally making the class want to give them a code red.
Example: I was at a Carbine Operator's course at Blackwater USA. One of the attendees brought 1,000 rounds of Remington UMC .223 ammo and 2,000 rounds of Winchester Q131A ammo. His Armalite ran with the .223 ammo...but it wouldn't chamber the Winchester ammo. The 5.56 stamp on his barrel was a lie. His barrel had an extremely tight chamber even for .223 and wouldn't chamber real 5.56. At first he thought it was the ammo's fault, but after I put a full mag of his ammo through my Bushmaster he started to wonder about the gun. We rustled up more .223 ammo and his gun magically started working again.
At Blackwater that's not too big of a deal because they usually have a bunch of ammo on hand that you can buy from them if your ammo sucks. Still, with the ammo situation these days it's not wise to rely on them bailing you out.
If you bring ammunition that has been tested in your weapon to ensure proper function, the instructor probably won't give a hoot about what brand it is. What they want to avoid, usually, is having one guy who has major equipment issues that sucks up all of their time and energy.
You are right: When I shop for training ammo I try to find the best deal I can...but only on ammo that I know runs well in my guns. Right now some of the best training ammo going is the Privi Partizan M193 clone ammo. I've run about 3,000 rounds of it and it's performed splendidly in my AR's. I've also had good success with PMC .223 ammo (in my Bushmasters, anyway), Winchester 5.56 ammo, and Federal XM193.
T&E of new equipment and ammo is fine in a training course, but the problem with many people is that they put all their eggs in the basket with an untested bunch of equipment/ammo and then slow the whole class down as they struggle to make their equipment work. At an outfit like Blackwater where there is an ammo sales counter and a bunch of good armorers to deal with logistics and equipment issues, it's not a huge deal....but if you're on a small podunk range with an instructor who doesn't have all that stuff you're making life difficult for the instructor, yourself, and your classmates.
If you want to T&E some new equipment or ammo, bring backups. It's a good practice to bring backup weapons and equipment to training courses. In a handgun course, for instance, I usually bring at least 2 handguns that can share magazines and carry equipment just in case one breaks. I typically bring 2 carbines with me for carbine training if possible. I also bring my entire shade-tree gunsmith's tool-kit complete with some spare parts to repair issues with my guns or to help others out with equipment issues.
An instructor isn't going to see you show up with X brand of ammo, slap you, and then scream "GET THE $@#!#% OUT OF MY CLASS YOU DAMN COMMIE!!" or anything. All they generally want is for you to show up with ammo that runs in your gun.
John Wayne hit it on the head.
BRING equipment (including ammo) YOU KNOW WORKS. People call it a weapon system because it is a SYSTEM. If you change one thing, other items may not work.
For example. I have a LMT MRP. I've been using it with a collapsable stock for months now and it has worked fine with all kinds of ammo, including wolf. In fact, it has worked FLAWLESSLY with wolf.
I recently put a standard fixed A2 stock on it (with rifle length spring and buffer) in preparation for a 3 gun match. Suddenly, it wouldnt lock the slide back with wolf on the last round, and occasionally would fail to extract and jam with wolf.
With hotter .556 loads it ran fine. (wolf is pretty tame) I'm going to start clipping the spring until I get a full cycle. But the botom line is that right now the rifle is UNPROVEN with the fixed stock. I would not use it in a match, for training, or in any kind of real world situation as it is now.
Conversely, with the carbine stock, buffer tube, buffer, and spring, I would bet my life on it. Even with Wolf.
Don
Don
Good advice here for anyone attending their first carbine class.
Awhile back, over a year, I was buying good ammo as I saw it for sale, at gun shows and places like Sportsman's Warehouse.
So I have a good supply of Blackhills red Box, & American Eagle.
I also bought some ammo of an unknown quality, but sad to be good.
So i now have a case of Fiocchi (said to be overrun for Italian mil) S&B, oldr XM193 and Win Q3131A, along with a smattering of other stuff from wal mart etc.
Hell I just got 500 rounds of Speer 5.56 fmj for 10 dollars a box, should've bought more.
What I do, is save the BHA red box for classes, I know it runs, has an excellent rep for QC and reliability. When that's exhausted, I'll move to the American Eagle and Speer, for classes.
In the mean time I shoot all the "suspect", and I really shouldn't call it that, in my personal range time/training. So if its bad, no one suffers, and I haven't wasted my money.
If your wanting to take a course, they average about 1500 rounds, so I would start looking for some quality ammo, and suck it up and buy 2 or more cases, check for function, and lay it way. Then buy all the "crap" ammo for hometown training.
There's a guy at work, who fancies himself a gun guy, he knows enough to be a PITA, rumor has it, i have a large supply of ammo and AR mags, and of course guns, and I do.
he now wants me to sell him ammo, mags etc, and by "sell" he means "give". Its now a point of comedy at muster when i work with him, explaining supply and demand, and the fact that I had the forethought to purchase low, and can now sell high:D
My point, other then making fun of him, is the price will never go down, get it now. Not necessarily in a hoarding manner, bought you should have some good stuff laid up.
JW makes a lot of good points also.
John_Wayne777
04-06-09, 20:05
JW makes a lot of good points also.
Completely out of character and I promise it'll never happen again. :D
John_Wayne777
04-06-09, 20:29
One other ammo related tidbit:
Some manufacturers use a gas port that is larger than milspec. They do this to make weapons function with lower powered commercial ammo. If you buy something that is truly milspec like a Colt 6920, some of the weaker stuff on the market might not work with it, so be sure to check out the combo of weapon and ammo thoroughly even if you're running the 6920.
If nothing else those guys get good at immediate action and feedway clearance drills. :D
I shoot Blazer Brass or my reloads at handgun courses.
Rifle ammo, whatever I can find, I make sure my weapons can run with good as well as crappy ammo.
People are getting smarter about ammo. I was in a three day Pat Rogers class this past weekend and we shot north of 1000 rounds. I only noticed one possible ammo issue with a carbine over the three days. I believe everyone was shooting brass cased ammo with the exception of one guy. Gun issues were a different story but still a lot better than some past classes. JW hit it on the head, shoot what your taking to class. Make sure it works in your weapon. With the cost of ammo these days it can be difficut to convince yourself to run 400 - 500 rounds prior to attending a class. But it's worth the cost when you don't have issues that cause you to lose time on the line.
BTW the guy shooting Wolf at the class was me and my N4 ran fine all three days with no issues. I hope this is a continuing trend given the cost of ammo! I did bring the course required amount of ammo in brass also, in case I had any issues.
Note: The only ammo issue at this class that I'm sure of was with a pistol during transitions. The guy was shooting his own reloads.
I've been shooting blazer (the aluminum cased stuff) in IDPA for 10 years. It has run flawlessly in my glock 34 Its actually pretty hot compared to run of the mill brass cased economy ammo, so I know the gun will cycle properly even if I limp wrist it a bit.
If you do not reload, I highly recommend plain old blazer. I've not found a better practice/match handgun load.
citizensoldier16
04-07-09, 14:08
Right now some of the best training ammo going is the Privi Partizan M193 clone ammo. I've run about 3,000 rounds of it and it's performed splendidly in my AR's. I've also had good success with PMC .223 ammo (in my Bushmasters, anyway), Winchester 5.56 ammo, and Federal XM193.
Ditto. I've started purchasing two 200-round battle packs of the Prvi Partizan M193 clone stuff a week from a local ammo supplier. It runs great in my gun, and I've never had a problem with it. I've experimented minimally with the XM193 and have had great success with that as well. At $85 per battle pack for the Prvi, it's not a bad deal at all.
This is what I do, and I have the luxury of doing this because I drive a large vehicle and don't fly to classes.
I shoot Wolf almost all the time. I also tote along 1500 rounds of XM193 from a lot that I know I've never had trouble with. My thinking is that if I run into problems with a new lot of Wolf, I have the XM to fall back on.
I sure am getting tired of loading that XM in and anoud of the truck all the time without ever opening it. :cool:
Rob.
Just to read into what you just said. Its not the Wolf that you want a backup for. Its that each new batch of wolf is a new lot number.
i.e. you would carry the same backup ammo even if you were planning to shoot a new, untested lot of xm193.
Right?
Yes. I always take double the requirement, basically.
This is what I do, and I have the luxury of doing this because I drive a large vehicle and don't fly to classes.
I shoot Wolf almost all the time. I also tote along 1500 rounds of XM193 from a lot that I know I've never had trouble with. My thinking is that if I run into problems with a new lot of Wolf, I have the XM to fall back on.
I sure am getting tired of loading that XM in and anoud of the truck all the time without ever opening it. :cool:
Rob,
After reading that info I wrote about at the top of this thread, I decided that I'd do exactly what you described. I was lucky enough to "see" the crazy ammo scarcity coming so I've got quite a lot of Federal LC XM193, PMC, and Wolf. If I sign up for a course, I'll just bring double the ammo.
Thanks guys.
geminidglocker
04-07-09, 19:24
If it's just 2000-4000 rds. of training, then it probably stands to reason, that the operator have a "system" that he knows works, as others have stated. There is a lot more to training than ballistics, terminal or otherwise.:o
Yes. I always take double the requirement, basically.
Rob,
If I sign up for a course, I'll just bring double the ammo.
I do that even when using best ammo. I like to jump in other relays, stay for extra hours when they're offered, and shoot as much as I can.
Too many see a 1k round requirement and bring 1k rounds. Add a bad ammo or bad combo variable, and they're a hurting unit TD1.
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