Tactical Vest for a 3 gun match??

[dcmdon]

Dear All,

I'd like to begin shooting some 3 gun matches. I purchased a tactical tailor vest and a pistol and rifle mag pouch to go on it recently.

However, I was recently poking around on Blade-tek's web page and saw belt mount mag holders for an AR mag.

I'm a pretty experienced IDPA shooter and think that I would do better with the belt pouches.

for what its worth, I'm not in the military, not ex-military, not a LEO. This is purely fun and games for me. I dont have any delusions of tactical grandeur.

So on to the questions:

1) do most people use vests or belt mounted mag holders
2) if its fairly evenly split, what do you like and why?

If I'm better off with just the belt mag holders, then thats fine. I'm sure given the current backorder of tactical tailor stuff, I could unload it for not a whole lot less than I paid for it.

Thanks for the input.

Don

[dcmdon]

bueler? bueler?

[R1pper]

Run what ever works best for you. Take this advice with a grain of salt. My first three gun is in two weeks, but I am running two blade tech rifle mag pouches on my belt and a chest rig. Also Look a the round count for the match and stages. A reload from a belt pouch to me is faster, and if you only need one or two reloads then all you need is two bladetech pouches.


-DM-

[sinister]

2 Blade Teks on the belt plus one in the gun is 90 rounds -- more than enough for a game.

Your shotgun rounds are obviously your bulkiest ammo. You don't want stuff catching or hanging up your draw, presentation, or mount.

Your pistol mags still have to be where you can draw and load.

[esskay]

Yep, if you're optimizing for the game, most everything would be on your belt. Assume you are shooting something like tactical scoped, not open. I rarely see guys at the 3-gun matches around here running vests or chest rigs unless they're specifically trying to "train like they fight" as opposed to trying to post their best scores -- chest rigs just aren't as fast.

Rifle - Bladetech mag pouches will be just fine, as noted above 2 on the belt is more than enough. If you have a stage where you need to shoot from prone, have a pair of mags cinched together and you can mono-pod off of it. Having the pair will make a more stable platform. Some sort of basepad will help with the monopoding (e.g. Arredondos or even regular old Magpuls turned sideways help). Sometimes you'll see someone with a drop leg rifle mag pouch.

Pistol - regular mag pouches on the belt, maybe a DOH holster.

Shotgun - California Competition (cheaper) or Man Mountain Engineering (nicer but more expensive) shell caddies on the belt. That way you can grab 4 shells at a time and weak hand load.

[mskdgunman]

I haven't had a chance to shoot a 3 gun in a while but I generally used a chest rig for rifle ammo and my duty belt for my handgun and mags. I decided early on that I was not going to beat the scores of the guys who shoot the HSLD guns with the gear set up specifically for competition. I used my work rigs and tried to get as good as possible. Chest rigs are not fast as has been pointed out but it is how I carry my gear at work. I looked at it as training against myself. If I had good scores, that was a bonus

I ran my handgun in a thigh holster with 4 mags on the belt, three rifle mags in the chest rig and sometimes a few extra handgun mags on the chest rig to top off the belt pouches between strings if I didn't feel like reloading mags. Shotgun ammo was carried on a side saddle and a butstock shell holder with some rounds in a dump pouch if I thought I needed them

[dcmdon]

Thanks for the input. Like I said above. Its a game for me in all ways. I'm not a LEO and not military.

I guess it just comes down to whether I want to "game" it or not. Thanks for the input.

One other question.

I was planning on using my benelli duck gun with an 8 round extender, but just picked up a saiga 12. I got it mainly because I just wanted one before the feds reclassified it as a destructive device. But. it seems that it would be a good 3 gun shotgun. It runs very reliably with the 12 round mag filled up with 10 rounds.

Is the Saiga used in 3 gun stuff?

Don

[rob_s]

I run a local "2-gun" (carbine and pistol) match and have been doing so for almost 5 years now (I think it's 5, maybe it's only 4...). We see all kinds of gear come through our matches, and th overwhelming majority of the time when we see a "tac vest" it winds up causing the shooter problems. It either has poorly placed pouches, too many pouches (which people seem to be unable to avoid filling), conflicts with their holster, sized wrong, etc. The conflict with the holster becomes a bigger issue because, rather than modify the vest or ditch it, they use it as an excuse to buy a thigh-holster which they then wear too low on the leg, which has a whole host of problems of it's own.

I have an article on my website called Load Carriage for Training Classes (http://tacticalyellowvisor.net/8343/56227.html) that also applies pretty well to competition shooting. Essentially, I carry my speed reloads on my belt and the chest rig is for particularly mag/round intensive courses of fire or to simply be able to carry enough mags/ammo on my body for the entire match. It's nice to shoot a whole match and just always be ready to shoot, cutting down on time spent loading/finding magazines. Some excerpts from my site which I think apply here:

First and foremost, the gear must work for you, in your intended role, and not encumber other items of necessity. What the hell does that mean? It means that you need to select your gear as a system, not as individual parts and pieces that may conflict with one another, and that the items in this system will have a priority list. For example, civilians (both LE and non) will most often have a primary focus on a handgun because that's what they are most likely to have on their person in an emergency. Whether attached to a duty belt, attached to a pants belt in plain sight, or attached to a pants belt and concealed, the handgun is the primary weapon for the vast majority of civilians. As such, it's the gun you're most likely to have on your person when a need for a firearm arises. At best it is likely to be the tool you use to "fight your way to your carbine". So, does it make sense to choose a load carriage system that doesn't work with your handgun in it's normal mode of carry? If you're a police officer that carries a rifle and load carriage system in the trunk, does it make sense to select a vest that covers your holstered duty weapon when you put it on? It is critical to make gear selections that complement one another.

Secondly, and keeping the above in mind, is a layering approach to the system. Start with your primary handgun in it's CCW/duty rig with spare magazine(s) and other daily carry gear, and build from there. If attending pistol-only training then here is where it should end; bring your CCW/duty holster and mag pouch(es) and be done. You may wish to add a dump pouch attached to the belt for carrying additional ammunition or magazines to the line, but this pouch should be used to feed the belt-mounted magazine pouches and not the gun. From there, begin to add gear in the same way as you would in an emergency situation. What is the least amount of gear you might be able to grab with a rifle? The gun itself? Perhaps a spare mag with it stuffed in a pants pocket? A spare mag in a belt-mounted carrier? A bandoleer? A chest rig? A full armored plate-carrier? Build up layers as you would in real life and based on your role. Remember that it all has to work together as a system.

and the closer


To sum up, the keys to good gear selection for training classes are:
1) Know your role.
2) Know your instructor (and what they require).
3) Think of all of your gear combined as a system.
4) Establish what is your primary weapon and prioritize that gear.
5) Select other gear to work with your primary.
6) Layer your system based on your role.

To apply this to competition, #2 could be better stated "know your match", but otherwise I've found all of the above 6 to apply to matches as well as classes.

[dcmdon]

Thanks.

Thats great info. I am planning to use my IDPA holster for my Glock. Its Kydex without a thumb break. My Tactical Tailor chest rig rides up high enough to allow access to the handgun and my belt mounted mag pouches.

That was one of the things I liked about the TT chest rig. It is not very long, so I can maintain clearance for the handgun stuff.

Re thigh holsters. I really dont like them. I borrowed one once and it felt like I was going to lose the gun when I ran. I dont know if it was because it was a generic thigh holster and not specifically made for the glock. But it didnt feel right.

Re the idea of using what I'll use in real life. Unfortunately I'm really a "gamer".

My carry guns tend towards the smaller more concealable pieces. Kahr PM9, SW 342 (jframe) and Ruger LCP. As far as I know, there arent any safety officers who will allow you to draw from your pocket.

So I'm limited to practicing my draw when I'm at my local outdoor shooting pit. (although I did shoot IDPA with a Subcompact Gloock 26 for 3 years, I still used a belt holster, which is nothing I'd use in real life)

Thanks again. I think I'll pick up some blade tech belt mounted AR mag pouches. I'll also hang onto the vest to see how I like it. Please note in your replies, that I'm a pretty experienced tactical GAME handgun shooter, but am very new to anything other than plinking and 3 position stuff with an AR.

I make the game differentiation, mainly because I fully understand that I am playing a game that is teaching me skills that may someday be useful in real life. But I do not go into harms way for a living. I have tremendous respect for those who do, and dont want to pretend to know what they experience.

Don

p.s. I'm very intrigued by a chest rig mounted handgun holster. It would seem to be close, secure, and very fast. But unfortunately its not allowed for safety reasons in most matches.

[mskdgunman]

I know what you mean about thigh rigs. I can't wear the stock ones they issue us. I modded it so it rides higher on the hip and puts the butt of the weapon just below belt level. I can't stand them flopping around down around my knee. It's just got to be low enough to clear my body armor and not dangling on the ground.

I've run a chest rig mounted holster with a G-19 in a couple matches on a trial basis and it was pretty fast. I don't know if I would want it for everything but for special situations it would be ok. I could see it being handy in a convoy type situation where trying to bring a long gun or a handgun holstered on you hip into play would be difficult.

Not a great picture but it gets the point accross

http://www.forumjpg.com/userImages/28944731119232.jpg (http://www.forumjpg.com/clicked.asp?img=28944731119232.jpg)

[dcmdon]

In the early days of IPSC guys started using chest holsters for competitive advantage. This worked because they began in the "hands up" position.

This was before the days of space guns and holsters that looked nothing like holsters.
They were eventually outlawed because the gun was breaking "the 180" as it was being drawn.

Don

[rob_s]

I don't know why you keep harping on the fact that you're only a gamer. The lessons are still the same. If you're as much of a competitive shooter as you claim to be then you have a pretty well established handgun holster and mag pouch placement that you're used to. Just like the concealed carry shooter, the LE shooter, etc. you want to ensure that your other load carriage works with the handgun placement and defers to the handgun placement whenever there's a conflict.

Just because you don't carry on the job, or every day, doesn't mean there's not still a hierarchy to your gear selection.

[losbronces]

Thanks for the input. Like I said above. Its a game for me in all ways. I'm not a LEO and not military.

I guess it just comes down to whether I want to "game" it or not. Thanks for the input.

One other question.

I was planning on using my benelli duck gun with an 8 round extender, but just picked up a saiga 12. I got it mainly because I just wanted one before the feds reclassified it as a destructive device. But. it seems that it would be a good 3 gun shotgun. It runs very reliably with the 12 round mag filled up with 10 rounds.

Is the Saiga used in 3 gun stuff?

Don

Guys run Saigas in 3-gun, but running a shotgun with magazines may put you in a class that you don't want to be in (usually goes with the unlimited race guns). Usually, there aren't that many stages that use the shotgun.

[dcmdon]

Rob,
My point is that i didnt want to come off as a poseur "special-ops-seal-tac-socom-e-i-e-i-o" guy. . There is a lot of that on AR15.com. Internet operators. I just wanted to, frankly, be humble, and make a point that I have no "real world" experience to draw from.

You'll also noticed that I said "experienced" and never said "good". I've barely made expert in idpa, which is nothing to write home about considering how long I've been doing it. I am a thoroughly mediocre competitive shooter. But I'm safe and I have fun.

You're right. I've got a handgun setup that I'm comfortable with. There's no reason to change that. I do appreciate all of your input.

Don

[esskay]

Guys run Saigas in 3-gun, but running a shotgun with magazines may put you in a class that you don't want to be in (usually goes with the unlimited race guns). Usually, there aren't that many stages that use the shotgun.

Indeed, Saigas put you in open class... a whole 'nother world of gear & expense!!

Some 3-gun stage designers have been known to put in little spoilers to make Saiga shooter's lives a little more miserable! ;)

[dcmdon]

Thanks. I'll stick with my duck gun.

[mskdgunman]

I've run my Saiga in several matches and had pretty good luck with it. I had an SBR Saiga back before they became fairly common and it's a fast, accurate shotgun. Tube guns have a certain advantage of being able to be topped off and it's easier to switch between birdshot and slugs if the stage designer throws a wrench into the scenario that requires a change in ammo mid string. If all the stage is composed of is dropping a bunch of steel plates, I'll take my Saiga and three or four mags.The only problem I has was that at that time, there were not many mag carriers for Saiga mags but I managed with a chest rig.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

For three-gun, with belt mounted stuff, is it usually an add on belt worn over the pants, or is everything mounted on the pant's belt?

[esskay]

As competition gear, CR Speed belts seem pretty popular. They have an inner belt with velcro all the way around, you feed that through your belt loops. Then there is an outer belt with velcro on the inside which just attaches to the inner belt. You can adjust where you place gear on the outer belt infinitely, and you can have multiple outer belts pre-configured for different purposes if you like.

[gogetal3]

I just recently been shooting 3 gun matches. I run a Diamondback duty belt with 2 double pistol mag pouches one in the 11o'clock position the other in the 4o'clock, 2 AR mags 10o'clock, and 9o'clock, and 1 on the 5o'clock. We do a lot of left hand reloads and transitions. I use a dump pouch for my bird shot, and keep the slugs on the shotty. We incorporate all 3 guns very well into every stage. Theres a match this Saturday in fact, I can't wait