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condoor
04-07-09, 18:33
I am moving into LE and have the good fortune of being able to pick my own sidearm, as well as caliber. The department I'm hoping to land allows for 9mm or .45 (no .40 option).

I have read caliber threads for five plus years now (especially docs threads on this and other forums), and there are a couple things that I am still a little fuzzy on. I have two pistols now: Glock 19 and Glock 26and shoot them both well. I will be buying a new pistol for duty use.

I am trying to decide between a G17 or a M&P .45 (possibly G21SF) as a duty weapon and that largely depends on which caliber I want to go with. (I understand that pistols suck at stopping people, and shot placement is key. )

Anyway - following are my 'questions'/concerns:

- One of the arguments in favor of the 9mm is related to 'modern hollow points' and how with modern hollow points all handguns have similar performance. Doesn't the .45 benefit from modern hollow point technology as well?

- The thing that I just can't seem to get over is the difference in the size of the hole. A .45 makes a 23% larger hole. This means a 23% better chance of hitting a vital organ, and a 23% larger area from which to bleed from. Short of a CNS hit - isn't blood loss key in 'stopping' someone? Isn't this larger hole a big deal?

- Momentum equals velocity multiplyed by mass. The .45 has considerably more momentum than a 9mm. How does this not translate into a better ability to continue through bones and barriers. (I've seen the gelatin tests, and FBI results which have most modern loads running 12-14" of penetration through a variety of medums - I just don't understand why the greater momentum of the .45 isn't more of a factor. )

I carry Speer Gold Dot 124g +P in my 9mms and feel comfortable with this load for what it is, but I can't help but feel like the 230g +P Ranger T .45 is 'bettter' than the former, and I want to carry 'the best', if my life is potentially on the line day in and day out.

All of these thoughts on calibers open up other questions for me in regards to capacity and speed. With the M&P .45 I would have 31 rounds of .45 on my person, vs 52 rounds of 9mm with a G17. How big of a factor is this? Will I eventually be able to shoot a G21 or M&P as fast and as accurately as a 17?

Anyway - I've given this a ton of thought (probably too much), and I'd really appreciate your advice. Other factors I should consider?

FYI - I have large hands, and used to own a G30 and could shoot it well, which I would assume would tranlate to the G21 or M&P, (though not quite as fast as my 19).

Thank you all in advance.
-c

DocGKR
04-07-09, 19:23
Picking a platform you shoot well, based on independent objective measurements of accuracy and speed, is far more important than caliber. Do you shoot a 9 mm G17, 9 mm M&P, .45 ACP G21, or a .45 ACP M&P better?

The G17 is a fine platform--probably the best Glock made and it certainly would work well with your current G26 and G19. FWIW, I personally would NOT willingly carry any of the Glocks other than 9 mm's on duty.

Both 9 mm and .45 ACP are more than adequate for LE use when using good performing ammunition. 9 mm is easier to shoot rapidly and has a higher magazine capacity; .45 ACP has indeed been shown to punch through bones and intermediate barriers better than 9 mm. Both offer advantages and disadvantages.

My preference is for a manual safety on a duty pistol for uniform use and would choose a .40 M&P with ambi safety if ever I went back on patrol, but would not feel at all bad about using either a G17 or .45 ACP M&P.

ToddG
04-08-09, 11:32
- The thing that I just can't seem to get over is the difference in the size of the hole. A .45 makes a 23% larger hole. This means a 23% better chance of hitting a vital organ, and a 23% larger area from which to bleed from. Short of a CNS hit - isn't blood loss key in 'stopping' someone? Isn't this larger hole a big deal?

Not to nitpick, but your math is wrong. A 23% larger hole doesn't mean a 23% better chance of hitting a vital organ. When you look at the tiny size of either a 9mm or .45 projectile compared to the size of a person, or even the size of a typical torso, it's easier to understand. What you've got is about a 0.05-0.10" greater radial reach of the bullet by choosing .45 over 9mm. So while the argument could certainly be made that in some circumstance that tiny fraction of an inch could mean the difference between nicking an artery or not, etc., you need to weigh that against lower capacity, greater recoil, etc.


Picking a platform you shoot well, based on independent objective measurements of accuracy and speed, is far more important than caliber.

When the dude who knows more about terminal ballistics than the rest of us combined keeps saying things like that, I'm pretty sure it's a clue ...

CarlosDJackal
04-08-09, 14:35
Just to emphasize what has already been said by individuals who know a heck of a lot more than I probably ever will; a hit with a 9mm beats a miss with a .45 ACP every time.

I personally prefer to carry the .40 because I do better with it (I used to carry the .45 ACP exclusively). Unless you have to choose one over the other by law or policy, choose the handgun/caliber combination that works the best for you in terms of comfort and accuracy.

condoor
04-08-09, 18:28
Thanks all - I appreciate the responses.

I've been reading a lot of old threads today, and didn't realize that the Glock line had so many issues in calibers other than 9mm.

I think it probably makes the most sense for 'me' to go with a G17. It will go very well with my only other hand guns (the G26 and G19), I shoot glock better than anything else I've tried, and I'm set up to reload 9mm.

As a side note, I can't tell you what a relief it is to have a resource like this forum, where I know I can go to get sound advice from qualified people. Thank you.

Glock17JHP
04-09-09, 13:41
The G17 sounds like the right choice... you are already familiar with the G19 and G26...

Good luck to you in your LE endeavor!!!

tpd223
04-10-09, 00:54
We issue G17s here, I carry a G17 and a G26 daily. Previously we issued the S&W 5906, we've been using 9mms since 1989.

These is nothing wrong with a good 9mm.

ZDL
04-10-09, 03:29
I carry .45 now. I'm going to a g17. Reason: more rounds. I shoot both with negligible difference. Doc and Todd... These guys have more than just a clue when it comes to this stuff.

Doc.- I need to read up on your .40 data as I thought "the community" was shying away from it. Time to come out from under my rock I see. Still, for me and the sake of continuity and familiarity with my firearms, (unless some major data point factors in heavily) I continue to stay 9mm and .45. Off to read and learn.

DocGKR
04-10-09, 11:51
There is nothing wrong with 9 mm and .45 ACP; in fact, they are what I currently use. However, for LE use around vehicles, the .40 180 gr and .45 230 gr have a bit of an advantage over most 9 mm's. The nice thing about .40 is you get good intermediate barrier performance like a .45 ACP and a reasonable magazine capacity like a 9 mm, all in a compact platform. The downside of .40 is the sharper recoil, slightly less inherent accuracy, and the fact that most pistols in .40 have been less than ideal. For me, the M&P is the first .40 platform I really like shooting.

Ando
04-10-09, 19:20
Not to nitpick, but your math is wrong. ...

I'll nitpick the math. The hole is not 23% larger, the diameter of the hole is 26% larger. The AREA of the hole is 60% larger in the .45 then the 9mm for non-expanding rounds. Looking at perfectly performing hollow points, with expanded diameters of .62 and .74 for 9mm and .45 respectively, the advantage narrows to a 40% larger hole for .45 vs. 9mm.

How does this relate to terminal effect and incapacitation?
I don't know, ask Marshall and Sanow I guess....;)

I just wanted to point out that the difference was a bit more significant then was being portrayed.

Glock17JHP
04-11-09, 00:18
Uh oh... here it comes...

OK, let's 'assume' the area of the hole is 40-60% larger for the .45 ACP as compared to the wimpy 9mm... the 'area' of the entry hole tells us very little. Even if we further 'assume' that both rounds penetrate to an equal depth, and the 'volume' of the hole is 40-60% larger for the .45 ACP as compared to the puny 9mm... that does not mean it will stop the attacker 40-60% faster with equal shot placement...

The difference in a real-life shooting may be smaller than most people realize...

tpd223
04-11-09, 00:59
I have been told by several credible sorces that if one is looking at a service caliber (meaning .38special to .45acp) bullet hole in a person, be they live or dead, and the bullet is not recovered, the doc or coroner will not be able to tell which caliber made the hole as they all look the same.

Close enough for me to quit worrying about such trivia.

PA PATRIOT
04-11-09, 11:53
Touching on the statement Doc GKR posted,

The G17 is a fine platform--probably the best Glock made and it certainly would work well with your current G26 and G19. FWIW, I personally would NOT willingly carry any of the Glocks other than 9 mm's on duty.

Not to Hi-Jack or Derail the current topic but I have to ask what specific factors disqualify the .40 & .45acp Glock pistol (I take it we are talking about the Model 22 & 21) from being a recommended choice. Now I have heard about the problems of a poorly maintained .40 & .45acp Glock pistols were the recoil springs wore out (More then 1500 to 2000 rounds fired without replacement) or with the Model-22 the magazines followers and springs were of a older type (One less spring coil and lower feed profile) which caused feed issues with certain H/P's and over run when the cycle speed increased as the recoil spring failed. My question is if reoccurring maintenance is done replacing the recoil spring on a regular round count and your magazines are up-dated to the latest spring and follower release which one proofed with the carry load of choice would the Model-21 &22 be acceptable for full time uniform patrol? My department only issues a Glock Model-17 pistol with the very recent allowance of self purchased Model-21 & 22's. Many officers in mass have run out and purchased the Glock Model-21 S/F for duty use so now I'm wondering if a general warning should be circulated of specific problems which could arise with there use. From past experience my departments armorers are not the most trained or up-dated with the current issues with the newest authorized pistols so any information or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

condoor
04-11-09, 16:13
I'd be interested in hearing a response to Phil's post as well. I've read a lot of threads about Glock 21 reliability concerns, but most seemed to be around olders versions of the gun.

I'm curious if the latest 21SF hasn't addressed whatever shortcomings this gun had in the past.

Glock17JHP
04-12-09, 00:15
Glocks were originally designed and chambered in 9mm, in fact, the first 3 models were 9mm (Glock 17, 18 and 19)...
Glock's reputation as a durable and reliable design came primarily from the Glock 17, specifically. This model of Glock has been the primary Glock that has endured the most abuse and testing to date by a very large margin. Other calibers of Glock have had various issues, and overall these issues have not affected the 9mm Glocks, especially the Glock 17. In short, the 9mm Glocks are the most durable and reliable Glocks made... with the Glock 17 being the benchmark. This is not to say other calibers or models of Glocks are junk... but they are not as durable and reliable overall. This is just plain FACT!!!

PA PATRIOT
04-12-09, 02:50
I understand there are problems with other models/calibers of Glocks and the G-17 is the benchmark in which the other models are judged. Thats why I would like to learn from those in the know what major problems have manifested with the Model-21 & 22 and what cures to these problems exist. That way I can pass this info to the new L/E Glock .40 & 45 owners and they have a clue how to correct the issues.

tpd223
04-13-09, 00:18
Phila,

The G22 issues can be read about here, over at lightfighter, and on the 10-8 site.

Personally, I wouldn't carry an issued G22 by choice.

rsilvers
05-11-09, 23:18
The G22 is probably the #1 most common police duty pistol in the US. It is insanely more proven then many alternatives. To say it will have less endurance than a G17 is true, but it is no different than saying an AR running 6.8mm will have less endurance than a 5.56mm. Neither platform has as much of a safety factor as the original caliber design.

Patrick Aherne
05-12-09, 01:00
Dude,

Seriously, worry about getting hired, through background and through the academy and FTO. Caliber and pistol choice is ridiculous in comparison. If the G17 is reliable, go with it and don't look back. Worry about what is important, not the minutiae like which caliber to use.

PA PATRIOT
05-12-09, 18:06
The G22 is probably the #1 most common police duty pistol in the US. It is insanely more proven then many alternatives. To say it will have less endurance than a G17 is true, but it is no different than saying an AR running 6.8mm will have less endurance than a 5.56mm. Neither platform has as much of a safety factor as the original caliber design.

Now that makes a lot of sense, my G-17 is still solid function wise after 20 years of duty use. The G-17 is showing her age and while there is some good years left in her I wanted to retire the pistol to lite recreational use and go with another much newer Glock pistol to finish up my career (Next 10 years). I own like new Glock Model-17, 22 and 21SF's hence my question on which would survive the next 10 years with proper maintenance and care. As far as I can research and what Glock recommends if the recoil spring is replaced every 1200rds to 1500rds and the magazine springs replaced yearly the pistol either in .40 or .45acp should make it to the end of my career. I'M still open to any advice anyone here can offer.

DocGKR
05-12-09, 18:57
G17 or G19.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=28817

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=63496&an=0&page=0#63496

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/529109251

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/481101302

tpd223
05-12-09, 20:34
The G22 may be the most issued police duty pistol currently, however it is also the police duty pistol with the most reliability issues.

ST911
05-12-09, 21:22
The G22 may be the most issued police duty pistol currently, however it is also the police duty pistol with the most reliability issues.

Bwahahahahahaha! :p

Ever seen a Sigma?

Okay, we'd have to define "most" and establish parameters. Most as a percentage of total police duty pistols? Most as a percentage of a single manufacturer? Most as... (you get the picture).

DocGKR
05-12-09, 23:32
Does the Smegma even count as an LE duty pistol...I mean, any agency that actually adopted that POS has some serious problems with their test and eval protocols.

rsilvers
05-13-09, 07:15
I think when you say "most" you mean absolute numbers rather than percentages. There are 4 million Glocks out there. What about the new RTF2 frame? It might be stiffer in the needed places.

ST911
05-13-09, 09:14
Does the Smegma even count as an LE duty pistol...I mean, any agency that actually adopted that POS has some serious problems with their test and eval protocols.

In the examples I'm thinking of, if you had asked them about T&E you'd get a blank stare in reply. Selection criteria for them was cost, and "free" was heard easily. Free never cost so much, as they found out.

In my experience, pitifully few agencies do any meaningful testing. What other testing does occur is shooting a box or two through a sameple, asking, "Bob, what do you think?", and then buying mostly by price anyway. Sometimes, they luck out. Others...

rsilvers
05-13-09, 09:45
My local department did a test a number of years ago and selected the Steyr M40! Talk about not following the herd. I don't think they have had any problems with them.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/steyr40.htm

Claims to have a lower bore axis than a Glock. I wonder how much lower. I should shoot mine and see how I like it now. I might have the only one in MA in non-police hands. I special ordered it right before MA banned all handguns and then unbanned once which passed a set of drop tests.

Longhorn
05-13-09, 15:38
Dude,

Seriously, worry about getting hired, through background and through the academy and FTO. Caliber and pistol choice is ridiculous in comparison. If the G17 is reliable, go with it and don't look back. Worry about what is important, not the minutiae like which caliber to use.

I understand your point, and I'm not trying to argue or go off-topic here, but what would you recommend for those of us who're starting our career to worry about?

I've passed everything up to this point thats "required" of me. Paperwork, initial testing, polygraph and now I just have to wait for my background investigation to be completed. And once that's done and I get a "conditional job offer" I get to see a doctor and psychologist for a psych eval.

So between reviewing P.O.S.T. study guides, as well as going to the gym I take the time out to read. I see no problem in making an "informed decision" on what weapon to use from guys who've "been there and done that" if we're allowed to choose our own duty weapon. Granted, some of those opinions are from guys who think they can beat Jerry Miculek/Dave Sevigny, but couldn't beat a one armed pigmy armed with a rock in a "hostile environment". But that's where I've got to deduce who to take to heart and who's grain of salt to use with dinner.

I'm not saying your gun > everything else. I know it's just one tool in an LEOs arsenal. But I'd rather not "tempt fate" on my sidearm being it's not only going to be responsible for my safety, but yours as well as my partner. I want to know that when the firing pin falls, the gunfight will be won by me. Not only because of superior/quality training by the Academy/FTO/Firearms Instructor(s), but I took the time to review my weapon and made an informed decision on what worked for me, based upon my peers and their opinions/recommendations on having more experience in the field.

ZDL
05-13-09, 16:00
I understand your point, and I'm not trying to argue or go off-topic here, but what would you recommend for those of us who're starting our career to worry about?

I've passed everything up to this point thats "required" of me. Paperwork, initial testing, polygraph and now I just have to wait for my background investigation to be completed. And once that's done and I get a "conditional job offer" I get to see a doctor and psychologist for a psych eval.

So between reviewing P.O.S.T. study guides, as well as going to the gym I take the time out to read. I see no problem in making an "informed decision" on what weapon to use from guys who've "been there and done that" if we're allowed to choose our own duty weapon. Granted, some of those opinions are from guys who think they can beat Jerry Miculek/Dave Sevigny, but couldn't beat a one armed pigmy armed with a rock in a "hostile environment". But that's where I've got to deduce who to take to heart and who's grain of salt to use with dinner.

I'm not saying your gun > everything else. I know it's just one tool in an LEOs arsenal. But I'd rather not "tempt fate" on my sidearm being it's not only going to be responsible for my safety, but yours as well as my partner. I want to know that when the firing pin falls, the gunfight will be won by me. Not only because of superior/quality training by the Academy/FTO/Firearms Instructor(s), but I took the time to review my weapon and made an informed decision on what worked for me, based upon my peers and their opinions/recommendations on having more experience in the field.


lolLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLBWAAAAAHAHAHHAAHAHAHA

Sorry man. That was great. I certainly hope yours was better than mine. I suggest whatever platform you decide on you seek out lots of additional training. I could give you a gold plated super duper death ray, if you can't deploy it, you're going to get killed with a .22.

Get a g17-19 and call it a day. Every man should have one. If from there you want to deviate, at least you have a good back up plan.

tpd223
05-13-09, 16:36
I think when you say "most" you mean absolute numbers rather than percentages. There are 4 million Glocks out there. What about the new RTF2 frame? It might be stiffer in the needed places.


Most of those Glocks are 9mms, by far. The last time I talked to our Glock rep he advised that they are making 65,000 pistols a month to keep up with world-wide demand. Only in the US is there a significant market for anything but 9mms.

I am already hearing reports on the RTF frames in .40 having issues.

It's not a need for a stiffer frame, the stiffer frame is what is causing the extra slide velocity, and thus the fails to feed issues.

DocGKR
05-13-09, 17:07
I think the Glock .40 problem would be mitigated if Glock used the G37/G38/G39 size weapons as the basis for the .40 S&W, rather than the 9 mm frame and slide.

-----------

TX_hopeful, get a 9 mm Glock. Then in the next 12-18 months, go take 4 or 5 pistol/carbine training classes with various instructors like Todd Green/Pistol Training.com, Magpul Dynamics, Paul Howe, Kyle Lamb/Viking Tactics, Larry Vickers, Pat Rogers, Jeff Gonzales/Trident Concepts, etc...

Longhorn
05-13-09, 17:09
lolLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLBWAAAAAHAHAHHAAHAHAHA

Sorry man. That was great. I certainly hope yours was better than mine. I suggest whatever platform you decide on you seek out lots of additional training. I could give you a gold plated super duper death ray, if you can't deploy it, you're going to get killed with a .22.

Get a g17-19 and call it a day. Every man should have one. If from there you want to deviate, at least you have a good back up plan.

I realize every Dept has good and bad personnel. Some are responsbile for training the FNGs and some of those shouldn't even be allowed to tie their own shoes without supervision...but I also know that I'm responsible for advancing my own skills, and I'm not just "limited" to the resources of the Dept itself.

I know there is no "Holy Grail" of handguns, and I'm going to have to find something that works for me no matter who recommends what. Maybe I'm just trying to justify my own "research" more then actually making a retort towards anything in particular. And it's really just as simple as "Go out and shoot 'em, dumbass".

BigMac
05-13-09, 18:34
Get a 9mm Glock for sure and carry a 147 gr. Federal HST. More capacity, great expansion and you might actually be able to hit your target. SHOT placement counts before anything else. Don't overthink it. Most have troubles hitting anything under stress. KISS principle.

rsilvers
05-13-09, 18:45
I am getting back into 9mm myself. Not for capacity for for fast follow up shots. To prove it is not for capacity I am carrying a P7-PSP.

For some reason I can shoot it much better than I can a Glock. I believe it is related to the trigger and also the sights.

The only pistol I can shoot better than a P7 is a Sig P210 but that is a long reach to the slide release.

searcher
05-17-09, 18:47
Does the Smegma even count as an LE duty pistol...I mean, any agency that actually adopted that POS has some serious problems with their test and eval protocols.

I was just wondering about your disdain for this model. I have the .40 caliber "VE" model and made it my carry gun. I know early models had some reliability problems but as a design engineer I can tell you most machinery does at first. Kalishnikovs had early reliability problems too. As for the duty part, I find it shoots like like a "retro" duty gun (read double action revolver). Guess I'm kind of an old fashioned guy.

Not that I don't like my Glock 19 I tricked out with Aro-Tek titanium guide rod and extended slide release, ISMI recoil spring and 3.5 lb. connector kit or my Belgian FN highpower with an action job by "Teddy" the gunsmith from Texas. I just find myself liking that El cheapo Sigma that works like a hammer. I am not a law enforcement officer, though. I sometimes do some informal protection duty in some groups I attend where there is some possibility of trouble. I will admit that at those times I carry the Glock.

rsilvers
05-17-09, 19:00
The guide rod and spring are no better than the $4 Glock part that was in there. I once replaced mine also, but I looked into it a more recently. The flat spring that Glock uses is much more costly to make yet Glock sells it for much less than IMSI. Also I once thought 3.5lb connectors were a good idea and learned they don't make me shoot better.

ST911
05-17-09, 19:54
I was just wondering about your disdain for this model. I have the .40 caliber "VE" model and made it my carry gun. I know early models had some reliability problems but as a design engineer I can tell you most machinery does at first. Kalishnikovs had early reliability problems too. As for the duty part, I find it shoots like like a "retro" duty gun (read double action revolver). Guess I'm kind of an old fashioned guy.

Early guns did indeed have problems. Trouble is, they endured into the so-called "enhanced" variant, which manifested little meaningful enhancements.

From a previous thread on the topic, regarding the Sigmas:


A training venue that sees a lot of them advises students to bring a spare gun if they're planning to shoot a Sigma. Or have an armorer standing by.

Each of several agencies that used them had a multitude of issues, mostly unresolved even with replacement guns. They then had to beg LE firearm dealers for a trade allowance toward something else.

Eventually, S&W was unable to give them away to agencies transitioning or standardizing.

The "Enhanced" wasn't, and the eval guns I had in my hands failed to fire at an alarming rate. Subsequent samples were little better.

A S&W sales rep was heard saying that the Sigma wasn't suitable for a LE gun, but was fine for the commercial market. (My kingdom for a tape recorder.)

There are examples of those that run. Their use is usually minimal in volume and instensity.

That's what I know first-hand.

I would not bet my life on a Sigma, nor allow others in my charge to do so. YMMV.

rsilvers
05-17-09, 20:26
I would trust a Sigma every bit as much as I would trust a Ford Taurus. It is no worse a gun that a Ford Taurus is a car. I also disagree that a gun must be more reliable than a car. You bet your life on both. So yes, I would fee safe carrying a Sigma. I would never buy one though as I enjoy guns and like premium ones.

Buck
05-17-09, 21:39
I think the Glock .40 problem would be mitigated if Glock used the G37/G38/G39 size weapons as the basis for the .40 S&W, rather than the 9 mm frame and slide.

-----------

The G35 was designed from the get go as a .40, it is not a bored out 9mm... All in all the G35 is the only Glock 40 that I would carry on duty... It does not suffer from some of the short commings of the G22s...

B

tpd223
05-17-09, 22:27
The Sigma was a disaster for both my agency and for another larger agency that I have friends at.

This series of guns, in all of the generations, in both 9mm and .40, suffered from broken firing pins, trigger issues, extraction issues, ejection issues.

I wouldn't even own a Sigma let alone trust my life to one.

rsilvers
05-17-09, 22:42
-----------

The G35 was designed from the get go as a .40, it is not a bored out 9mm... All in all the G35 is the only Glock 40 that I would carry on duty... It does not suffer from some of the short commings of the G22s...

B

I am curious for someone to name a shortcoming of the G22 in which the G35 does not suffer.

Buck
05-18-09, 12:27
I am curious for someone to name a shortcoming of the G22 in which the G35 does not suffer.

The G35 is 0.83 inches longer at the at the muzzle and weighs 1.6 ounces more… This increase in the length and weight of the slide does several things for you…

1) Felt recoil, One of the first things that someone notices going from the G17 to the G22 is the increase in felt recoil… The extra weight at the muzzle greatly reduces the felt recoil… The G35s felt recoil is very similar to that of the G17...

2) Slide speed, The slide speed on the G22 is to fast... The flexing of the frame during firing binds the rails enough to slow the slide down a bit, but if you attach a light, especially a light with a metal body, it greatly stiffens the frame, and reduces the slowing down effect of the frame binding on the rails… The slide is literally traveling so fast that it fails to correctly strip the next round out of the magazine or fails to correctly eject the spent case… Incidentally Glock’s fix for the failure to strip the next round is to add 2 more coils to the springs in the 4th generation magazine giving more upward pressure...

3) Sight radius, Maybe a small thing, but the longer sight radius of the G35, does make a difference when shooting at 25+ meters and lends itself nicely to Heine straight 8s…

4) Slide release, the G35 comes with a working slide release, if you wanted this feature on your G22 you could purchase the part and install it, but it comes standard on the G35...

B

rsilvers
05-18-09, 12:47
I was thinking the main complaint about the G22 is that there is not enough space in the feeding area to present the round at the ideal angle, thus making the non-fully-supported chamber necessary.

Adding coils to a spring reduces force. Maybe you meant they removed two coils? Or used thicker wire?

Can someone who has an XD40 and M&P 40 (clearly two pistols designed around the 40) weigh the slide and compare the weight to a G22 slide? That would be interesting if they were both heavier.

DocGKR
05-18-09, 12:52
They are different design pistols, so the slide weight is not directly comparable.

rsilvers
05-18-09, 13:24
We can start by knowing the mass of each and then if the Glock is lighter, try to understand what about the design allows for that (as as the previously mentioned frame flex).

Buck
05-18-09, 13:51
Adding coils to a spring reduces force. Maybe you meant they removed two coils? Or used thicker wire?

No, I meant they added coils to the spring… What is happening to the rounds in the .40 caliber magazine with the sharp recoil spike of the 22 is this…

As you know, if you take 10 billiard balls and place them all in a line, then strike the ball on one end with the cue ball, the ball most effected is the last ball on the opposite end of the line… The same thing is happening inside a .40 caliber Glock magazine fired out of a G22... The last round is pressing down on the follower, this is causing a slacking of upward pressure in the magazine, which is misaligning the top round in the magazine, that is being hammered by the slide that is traveling very fast, and “sham wow“… You have failure…

Perhaps the term “upward pressure” would be better stated, “able to dampen the kinetic energy of the recoil spike on the ammunition loaded in the magazine that pushes down on the magazine follower, thus providing a more even upward pressure”…

B

P.S. The G35 does not suffer from this… ;)

DocGKR
05-18-09, 14:17
Buck is absolutely correct!

rsilvers
05-18-09, 14:38
I sounds like they fixed it by reducing the spring force.

http://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/comp_spring_k_pop.htm

Notice how the spring constant in the first box is 18.75 lbs per inch. Change the number of active coils from 10 to 12, and hit the 'find k constant' button.

The lbs/inch changes to 15.625.

Now put 8 in the number of coils field. Hit the 'find-k-constant button' again. It now changes to 23.4375 lbs/inch.

PA PATRIOT
05-18-09, 17:00
So I take it most of the problems are with 3rd Generation Glock Model-22 with a light attached, now if we were talking a Mint like new 2nd Generation Model-22 which has no light rail or finger grooves what would be the general consensus on its reliability? Taking into account all the latest Mod's of followers, follower springs, locking block and a fresh recoil rod with a service life limited to 1500 rounds? While I decided against using the Model-22 as a service pistol I would like to make it reliable as possible for camping/hiking were more then likely smaller four legged critters would be encountered. Ammo would be Federal tactical HST 180gr H/P's to help slow down the slide velocity over the lighter and faster offerings.

rsilvers
05-18-09, 17:36
Is 1500 rounds the recommended fatigue life of the recoil spring? That would seem not so good if true.

Buck
05-18-09, 17:41
Here is what I would suggest … The LE price on a new in the box blue dot G35, with three high capacity magazines, the fixed plastic sights , & a 5.5 pound trigger is right around $400... A set of Heine straight 8 night sights, LE price is right around $100, (be sure to get the tallest of the three front sights that Heine offers, this is the correct height for most 180 grain duty loads… ) Buy a Vickers magazine release from tango down , $13, and a surefire X300 light, $250ish… Add a phantom light holster for G35 W/ x300 & magazine carrier from Raven Concealment $100… and you will be good to go…

So that’s:

400
100
13
250
100
= $863 ish

All in all I believe this would be a much better investment that will fill all of your needs… If we are talking about a pistol that you are willing to bet your life on, I would sell of the second generation G22 of unknown pedigree to fund a new G35...

B

P.S. The purpose of a pistol is to defend against an unexpected attack…

rsilvers
05-18-09, 17:56
Am I the only one who feels the least reliable G22 ever made is more reliable than 80% of the 1911s sold in the last 5 years when using 8 round mags?

I like my G35s very much and have CCW with them.

DocGKR
05-18-09, 19:25
I don't know--every 1911 I own is just as reliable as my G17/G19's; of course I was willing to invest the necessary time and funds to get the 1911's so they would run that well...

rsilvers
05-18-09, 20:01
I suspect I am slowly learning that most of my 1911 problems were due to using 8 round mags. Then there is the extractor tuning issue of 1911s. And then they don't really have interchangeable parts but I suppose they would if they were made to USGI standards.

PA PATRIOT
05-18-09, 21:55
We are allowed to carry the G-35 on duty and wonder what DocGKR's opinion is on them, Thank you so far to everyone who offered comment to this question and please trust me when I say will will not discount the many expert opinions which has greatly enlighten me on the subject. Information on the G-35 here on this forum using the search function is very limited.

tpd223
05-24-09, 19:51
phila,

In my experience if you have a G22 that runs, then you are GTG as long as you keep up with maintenance, like swapping out the recoil spring every 2000 rounds.