View Full Version : Sig QC and small parts quality
I have read a lot lately about Sig's QC going down hill and the "lesser" quality small parts they are using now. What small parts changes have been made that one would need to be concerned with? I know I read about the take down levers having broken off, any other small parts changes?
As far as the poor QC, is the problem more along the lines of guns getting through that shouldn't?
Haven't heard of any quality control issues regarding Sig Classic series pistols.
I have noted that changes have been made to some models in the recent past to enhance "Durability" for use with +P and +P+ ammunition, according to SigSauer [Stainless steel slide vs. stamped/ rolled slide and increase/ enhancement to receiver for more strength and durability). I personally have owned four Sigs: 220 and 226. My current carry/ duty gun is Sig 226 (9 MM). I have placed over 5,000 rounds through this pistol with zero malfunctions. These pistols chambered in 9 MM and .357 Sig seem to be the most feed reliable I have encountered.
As with any firearm or mechanical device problems can occur. I spoke with Sig LE Factory rep. and I was told that classic series have garnered a reputation for reliability and continue to sell very well to all sectors of the firearms consumer market because this of reputation for reliability.
Best friend is a range master/ training officer for large Southern California agency. Sig 220/ 226 pistols in .45 and 9 MM compromise a large percentage of issued sidearm/s (others are mix of Glock and 1911s). He has noted minimal problems with pistols during Quarterly qualifications. The most typical problem is the lack of sufficient lubrication to the rails/ slide interior surfaces. Sig Classic pistols are not designed to run dry (He also mentioned the 1911 pistols [all brands] constantly require work/ replacement of magazines, extractors, etc. due to feeding problems/ malfunctions).
I was reading earlier about HK P7 on forum. I personally believe that the Sig Classic series are superior for self-defense/ combat. I owned a P7M8 for several years and shot it extensively. I have also used the P7M13 and P7M10 as well. I have noted far fewer problems with my SIG pistols than any other brand and I have owned most of the major brands.
My first Sig pistol was a P220 in .45 ACP and I shot and carried that pistol for approx. 4 years. I fired over 25,000 rounds of full-power duty ammo through that gun and it was extremely reliable. The rare times it malfunctioned was when I purchased a case of questionable reloads for a low price. After discarding reloads, no more problems. I left Sig and started using a Glock 17, but later switched back. 10 years later, I will only use a Sig. Purchased a second 226 Navy with light rail last year. No Quality control problems.
SkiDevil
IWhat small parts changes have been made that one would need to be concerned with?
The problem is that unless you work there and know exactly what's going into a gun today, you've got no way to tell. In recent history they've changed the source for the trigger, the takedown lever, some barrels, the trigger bar (Mass State Police made the headlines when a new-vendor trigger bar failed to work properly in brand new DAK pistols), recoil spring (a change to the P229 40/357 recoil spring years back caused nationwide problems). I know one agency that just recently had a slew of problems with extractors on P229's which might suggest those have been outsourced. Ditto another agency that has had hammers deforming due to poor heat treat.
BTW, it's a mistake to believe this is a SIG-only issue. Companies change vendors and parts sources all the time.
As far as the poor QC, is the problem more along the lines of guns getting through that shouldn't?
My info is about a year and a half out of date, but as of when I left SIG they had stopped test-firing commercial (non-LE, non-mil) guns completely.
When I started there, the company had one QC policy for all guns regardless of expected customer. That meant I could confidently take a pistol packaged for sale to Big Joe's Pistol Emporium, add another magazine to the box, and send it to the FBI without any worry.
By the time I left, there were at least three formal QC levels:
Commercial guns, which didn't include any test firing.
normal LE, which either did or didn't include test firing at various points in the timeline.
ICE, because guns going to ICE are required by contract to undergo specific quality control steps including live fire testing.
I know for a fact that some other LE agencies were given the "ICE QC" status, but whether that's continued to this day or not I couldn't say.
There is nothing unusual about applying different QC protocols to LE guns versus commercial guns, though. A number of other companies do the same thing.
I guess there's no way to get a maintenance kit from germany is there?
springs, pins, and screws are dangerous if they're for a gun.
Actually, the idea that the "German" stuff is better probably won't play out much longer. The same guy who made all the big changes to SIG in the US has now been put in charge of the entire international conglomerate. It's reasonable to expect that the same cost-savings measures instituted in US-made guns will soon apply to German-made guns, as well.
The other, more hopeful, possibility is now that one guy controls both factories, it will be possible to provide genuine Sauer-made parts to the U.S. at a price competitive with the Indonesian, Israeli, etc. foreign-made parts being used now.
Yes thanks Todd. I stand Corrected.
That's one of the great things about life. You learn something everyday. I still find these statements difficult to believe, but if anyone would know what is going on inside of a company or "Business" then it would certainly be its employees.
I will still say that my limited experience with SigSauer products has been positive and I trust my life to my 226. I suppose that like anything else in life, problems will arise. I do not doubt what you say, but if quality control has tanked with SIG it will eventually see the light of day on a grand scale in my humble opinion.
I know HK has been having problems the last few years with their USP and its seems to be widely known. Lets hope that the folks at SigSauer wise-up and cease the 'Bottom-line' thinking when it comes to their products.
Regards,
SkiDevil:D
gtmtnbiker98
04-10-09, 09:57
For the above stated reasons is why I am buying HK, now.
There is nothing unusual about applying different QC protocols to LE guns versus commercial guns, though. A number of other companies do the same thing.
Do you know if HK, Glock, and S&W do this? I'm curious which companies, if you don't mind spilling the beans :eek:
SkiDevil--Don't know where you have been, but much like the .40 Glock problems, the Sig QC issues of the last couple of years have seen the "light of day on a grand scale"... no one in my circles would trust a new OOB Sig right now.
I will still say that my limited experience with SigSauer products has been positive and I trust my life to my 226. I suppose that like anything else in life, problems will arise. I do not doubt what you say, but if quality control has tanked with SIG it will eventually see the light of day on a grand scale in my humble opinion.
FWIW, I carried SIGs for the five years I worked there and never had a moment's doubt about them. However, as things changed in the company my assessment period and the detail with which I checked the guns before carrying them increased.
As for QC changes being well publicized, I suggest you spend an hour or two perusing Sigforum. All but the most bloated kool-aid drinkers there acknowledge problems and you'll see quite a few of the most experienced guys stating they won't buy new production SIGs. Personally I think that's overboard, but certainly you can't say that a 2009 SIG is built with the same TLC as a 1989 SIG.
SkiDevil--Don't know where you have been, but much like the .40 Glock problems, the Sig QC issues of the last couple of years have seen the "light of day on a grand scale"... no one in my circles would trust a new OOB Sig right now.
I've been in East LA trying to clean it up. And learning the true meaning of Cultural Diversity. Finishing Masters degree.
Where? FBI Bulletin, PORAC, Gun Magazines, Newspaper, News Broadcasts?
BTW- I can think of over a dozen guys that have been carrying Sigs for more than a few years and none of them have had any problems with their take down levers, hammers, or triggers. All use .45 or 9 MM models, maybe that is why. I personally have never cared for the .40 SW, but I bought a Glock 23 because I received a large discount on the gun and it came with several 13 rd mags. I purchased it more out of curiosity than anything else. It appears that most of the problems with Sig and many other brands have been from the high pressure cartidges like .40 SW and .357 Sig. That is why I prefer 9 MM and .45 Auto.
A lot of comments in general are made about the effectiveness of 9 MM, but like any other cartidge; priority number 1 is SHOT PLACEMENT. In LA numerous shootings have occurred where the 9 MM was/is used and terminal performance is quite good when the rounds are properly placed.
I'm normally a little too busy to keep up with new happenings on the internet, but right now I'm on vacation.
-I hear Palo Alto is a pretty nice place.
SkiDevil:)
As for QC changes being well publicized, I suggest you spend an hour or two perusing Sigforum. All but the most bloated kool-aid drinkers there acknowledge problems and you'll see quite a few of the most experienced guys stating they won't buy new production SIGs. Personally I think that's overboard, but certainly you can't say that a 2009 SIG is built with the same TLC as a 1989 SIG.
Thanks Todd. Again. Yes, I did look at the 'SigForum' for a couple of hours. Very Interesting information. With the exception of someone like yourself [Sig employee or former employee] and maybe a Police/ LE Dept. armorer who works or maintains Sigs for a large agency. I will take what I hear in the media or read on the "internet" with a grain of salt. Part of my job is being lied to constantly and determining what may or may not be the truth. I try to make decisions utilizing the best information available, my experience (or that of trusted collegues), and most importantly COMMON SENSE (a rare commodity these days, particularly in municipal supervision/ management).
I completely agree with you that writing-off a particular brand or product is ludicrous. ANY mechanical device is suspect or susceptible to failure, until proven. Yes, maybe the quality control is/ has declined at SigSauer or maybe it has not. Millions of firearms are sold and used everyday, by all sectors of our populace. Perfection is not possible, contrary to what Glock says. However, as for myself, I like my Sigs and will continue to carry/ use them, until I find something much better. Ditto for AR/ M4 rifles.
P.S. What is Kool-Aid (meaning of comment/ phrase)?
Thanks,
SkiDevil
:D
Thanks Todd. Again. Yes, I did look at the 'SigForum' for a couple of hours. Very Interesting information. With the exception of someone like yourself [Sig employee or former employee] and maybe a Police/ LE Dept. armorer who works or maintains Sigs for a large agency. I will take what I hear in the media or read on the "internet" with a grain of salt.
There's a difference between one guy spreading a rumor and an entire horde of aficionados who report major changes in overall quality and satisfaction over the past few years, though. When you combine that common public outcry with the other info available, it paints a pretty distinct picture.
Part of my job is being lied to constantly and determining what may or may not be the truth.
You're a wife?
(rimshot)
Yes, maybe the quality control is/ has declined at SigSauer or maybe it has not.
If there is still a question in your mind after everything you've read, there's not much else to say.
P.S. What is Kool-Aid (meaning of comment/ phrase)?
It's a Jonestown reference commonly used on the internet. It refers to someone who's become so blindly enamored with a brand, person, concept, etc. that he'll follow it, advocate it, and proselytize it no matter what the facts show.
HiggsBoson
04-13-09, 13:09
It's a Jonestown reference commonly used on the internet. It refers to someone who's become so blindly enamored with a brand, person, concept, etc. that he'll follow it, advocate it, and proselytize it no matter what the facts show.
Ironically, the cult members involved in the mass suicides at Jonestown actually drank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown#Deaths_in_Jonestown) Flavor Aid (laced with cyanide, et c) not Kool-Aid...
...apparently they said it was "just as good as" Kool-Aid. :eek:
Most of the Sigs that I have used in the last 10 years have been pre 2004 production. Any Sig that preceeds that year will be excellent......lets not forget that Sig won some major LE contracts as a result of extensive field tests pre 2004. I am a Sig armorer and work for DOI as a LEO. My most recent aquisition was a 2008 P229 in .40S&W which I bought at the beginning of 2008. Since then I've attended several LE spec ops courses and have put around 20k rounds through it with reloads, frangible, training, and full power duty. Nothing on the pistol has shown abnormal wear or parts breakages. I have experienced several FTE with reloads and frangible which tend to have less recoil force. I have been very pleased with this Sig and other officers using the newer P229 with moderate round counts that I have talked to have had a similar experience.
That being said, I have noticed some cosmetic issues with other newer Sigs. By no means would I write off Sigs as not being a good duty pistol, but if you are in the market for one I would look it over carefully. In some cases, I would say that Sigs are improving such as the newer trigger mechanism and gradual improvements to the P220. There haven't really been an functioning problems with the newer Sigs I've seen in use by other officers. I did have to smooth out part of the frame on a P226 where the slide release rides up. As the pistol got dirty the slide release wasn't locking back the slide. A 1minute fix, but something that can damage an officer's opinion on a Sig.
For someone not experienced with Sigs, I would probably not buy a newer one.......but if you do, go with the P229 .40S&W which from my experience seems to have better QC. Last year I stripped down and looked over 96 P229 .40S&Ws, 82 P226 9mms, and 35 P220 .45acps for FLETC. Interesting enough, from that sample I counted more cosmetic problems with the 9mms than the .40s or .45s.
[QUOTE=ToddG;349010]There's a difference between one guy spreading a rumor and an entire horde of aficionados who report major changes in overall quality and satisfaction over the past few years, though. When you combine that common public outcry with the other info available, it paints a pretty distinct picture.
If there is still a question in your mind after everything you've read, there's not much else to say.
Response
Alright Todd. I will acknowledge that SigSauer's quality control may have decreased in the recent past. But, again I haven't purchased 100s of the firearms, so I couldn't say by how much. Could you (provide a quantitative answer)?
Are their better guns/ pistols made? Sure, I bet there are but not everyone can afford a custom pistol or high-end brand. Or, like many in government. You may have no or little choice in what to use/ carry because the 'Brand' is chosen for you.
I asked a friend of mine (whom I trust implicitly) who is a LE trainer and works for a large agency, and has worked for California POST and at FLETC in GA about SIGs and some of the information that I recently read. His response was that everybrand has problems. Are the Sigs perfect. -No, not according to him. He told me that the Sig pistols are as good as any of the other brands (HK, Glock, etc.), so long as they are properly maintained.
In his agency, because he is a firearms instructor and training officer, he is given a lot of lattitude as to what brand and caliber he can carry for duty. What does he use? A Sig 229 in 9MM.
Finally, because statements are made, does that automatically make it the truth? No. Having read/ or been informed of the 'quality issues' with Sig will I be more dilligent in examining one of their guns (before I use/ carry it)? Yes.
Lastly
You're a wife?
(rimshot)
No. I'm a 6'1"" 255 Lb. Law Enforcement official. -Not married. I don't need another boss. I have one already (a girlfriend is sufficient).
Regards,
SkiDevil
:mad:
His response was that everybrand has problems.
I would agree that every pistol model will have a few that have problems here and there. Most recent for me was last week when I went down to visit my brother with APD and we went to the range. They recently transitioned to the S&W M&P .40 last year and most of the pistols in service have between 5k-20k rounds through them. I had assumed that the M&P was incredibly reliable and durable, but after his report to me I have changed my opinion. He told me that they have been having a number of parts breakages such as slide stops, springs, and broken frame rails. Frankly I was shocked since I had not heard of such problems with the M&P. They had been shooting nothing but lawman and gold dots, so no reloads. In fact, during our range session, my brother's M&P broke a trigger return spring after approximately 8k rounds life. He's been talking about wanting to get his super to allow him to use a Sig or H&K.
Alright Todd. I will acknowledge that SigSauer's quality control may have decreased in the recent past. But, again I haven't purchased 100s of the firearms, so I couldn't say by how much. Could you (provide a quantitative answer)?
No, I SIG doesn't send me their raw data. :cool: Even when I worked there, such things were not shared with those of us who dealt face to face with customers. But there's absolutely no question that there have been actual changes to the QC process. I can also tell you that I went from fielding a few complaints a year when I started ('02) to getting complaints on almost every shipment we delivered to a federal LE agency by the time I left ('07).
Are their better guns/ pistols made? Sure, I bet there are but not everyone can afford a custom pistol or high-end brand.
SIG is supposed to be the high end brand. There are other guns for the same money or less that are at least as good.
Or, like many in government. You may have no or little choice in what to use/ carry because the 'Brand' is chosen for you.
If you have no choice, then the entire topic is moot, though, isn't it? I never said "anyone who has a SIG is a loser." I didn't even say SIGs suck. I simply stated that based on my personal direct experience, there has been a steady and meaningful decline in the company's QC. This experience is further supported by the substantial number of consumers who report problems with their guns online.
He told me that they have been having a number of parts breakages such as slide stops, springs, and broken frame rails.
Slide stops: known problem. Last I knew, Smith was recommending changing the part every 10k rounds as a band-aid until it can be solved.
Springs: which ones and after what round count? I've dealt with a lot of M&P shooters and with the exception of my trigger spring (which broke at 42k rounds) I haven't heard any problems.
Frame rails: Broken frame rails? I'd like to see that. I've never heard of that before.
Frame rails: Broken frame rails? I'd like to see that. I've never heard of that before.
I agree that it would be good to see some pictures, but my brother has never exaggerated his information on firearms. S&W replaced the APD pistols that suffered the rail breaks.
The springs were trigger return springs which can be changed out in just a few minutes. Virtually all of them were between 5k-15k round count.
It's good to keep things in perspective. No pistol is guarenteed to not break something before 20k rounds, but the chances are that if you can put one through 10k-20k without breakages and you change out the recoil spring in 5k round increments........the pistol will last much longer than that. Most manufacturer defects are discovered through breakage within 10k rounds. The M&P is still a fairly new pistol and hasn't seen the service life of a Glock, USP, or Sig. I think that a lot of us decided too early that it was a Glock on steroids.
I agree that it would be good to see some pictures, but my brother has never exaggerated his information on firearms. S&W replaced the APD pistols that suffered the rail breaks.
Marcus -- I'm certainly not accusing your brother of lying. Did he personally see the broken parts? And since I don't know the guy, is he savvy enough to understand exactly what the frame rails are? On the M&P, they're part of the locking block (in front) and the sear housing (rear). Do you know which ones broke?
The springs were trigger return springs which can be changed out in just a few minutes. Virtually all of them were between 5k-15k round count.
I'm pretty sure S&W recommend a 10,000 round replacement schedule. So again without knowing what percentage of them were closer to 5k and what percentage was closer to 15k, it's hard to judge. Though I'm the first to admit, springs shouldn't be breaking even if they do go over recommended maintenance by a few thousand rounds.
There are a variety of things that could have happened: bad springs; bad trigger bars (in which case the springs will break "early" again); improper assembly at the factory; improper reassembly by department armorers; individual officers dorking around with the weird M&P trigger spring ... I can easily imagine an officer trying to get the buffer out of the center of the spring. :cool:
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