View Full Version : Why is this still happening? Question about Pirates
Why aren't the ships traveling through the troubled waters off the cost of East Coast of Africa not employing security details to protect them from pirates. I'd be willing to be on one of those teams (for a fee). Are there maritime laws that prohibit commercial ships from having armed security?
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-09-09, 11:01
Wouldn't it be cost? I heard that the going rate for a security specialist is down from the $200k figure from a few years ago (no I was not looking), but that still aint cheap, how many would you need on a boat? At least 5?
I see an opportunity for a new Magpul DVD set of instructional videos!
IIRC from my time in the USCG there are prohibitions against commercial ships being armed. Also, many shipping companies and insurers would rather pay a ransom than pay for full-time or contracted security.
What needs to happen is we need to go after them in their hideouts on land and tear them up. If we hit them with sporadic airstrikes and have a maritime stake out of the areas where they originate, it will be very difficult for them to get underway or get resupplied. The other thing we need is surgery to get our balls sewn back on, but that is a different issue.
Why aren't the ships traveling through the troubled waters off the cost of East Coast of Africa not employing security details to protect them from pirates. I'd be willing to be on one of those teams (for a fee). Are there maritime laws that prohibit commercial ships from having armed security?
ICANHITHIMMAN
04-09-09, 11:22
Money and the legal issue the US Navy and MSC ships are covered but a civilan ship employing hired guns not worth it the money and the leagal implications if something were to go wrong. The men on the ships arnt worth as much as the cargo in the eyes of the compay.
The Captain of most merchent shipping vessles will has a pistol in the safe.
EzGoingKev
04-09-09, 11:25
We could just bomb Somalia off the face of the planet.
That would work for me.
More pirates = less global warming. It's a basic tenet of pastafarianism.
M4tographer
04-09-09, 13:17
More pirates = less global warming. It's a basic tenet of pastafarianism.
Ramen.
Business_Casual
04-09-09, 13:28
Arrgh! I'm sending you all to Davy Jones Locker!
M_P
MisterWilson
04-09-09, 13:33
More pirates = less global warming. It's a basic tenet of pastafarianism.
Ahhh, you have been blessed by his noodly appendage.
:cool:
IIRC from my time in the USCG there are prohibitions against commercial ships being armed.
Negative on the prohibition on commercial ships. They are free to lock & load, from a legal standpoint. All bets are off on the policy of the boat owner.
Thomas M-4
04-09-09, 13:54
The solution for this problem has been around since Nov 10 1775 .
SEND IN THE MARINES!!! and keep them there this time.
I know its not going to happen but thats what the Marines are for.
LittleRedToyota
04-09-09, 13:59
Negative on the prohibition on commercial ships. They are free to lock & load, from a legal standpoint.
does that apply in foreign ports, too, though?
this thread reminds me that i have not been to "the spaghetti warehouse" in awhile. i gotta get back there for dinner soon...it's pastafarian heaven. ;)
spamsammich
04-09-09, 14:04
I've got a buddy that's deployed with 151 right now and he is complaining about just how huge the patrol area is and the fact that by the time the reach the trouble spots, the pirates are long gone.
FlyAndFight
04-09-09, 14:56
These aren't a bunch of skinnys in a raft. These are well funded and equipped pirates working for crime syndications (my guess, Russian). They've got inside info on maritime shipping schedules, routes and manifests. It's too much of a coincidence that the ships getting hit have "interesting" cargo. (weapons or food, for example.) Also, too coincidental that they know exactly where they are (and the naval ships aren't)...
woodandsteel
04-09-09, 15:18
Listening to the radio last night, it was reported that the area these pirates are operating in, is roughly four time the size of Texas. The Navy Commander (Ret.) on that program said that a sea based operation against them is next to impossible. May of the pirates operate from mother ships, that look like normal fishing vessels. The only way to combat these pirates, according to him, is to attack them on land.
I will reluctantnly admit, that the show was Jim Bohannon's America In The Morning. (JimBo is definitely no friend of the 2nd Amendment). His guest was Retired Nay Commander John Patch.
Last year, I just happened to read the book; Jefferson's War: America's First War on Terror 1801-1805 It is a pretty good read. It was frustrating to read how the American Forces kicked but over in present day Libya, only to have Congress end the war and pay tribute to the pirates that the Marines had just defeated.
M4tographer
04-09-09, 15:39
These aren't a bunch of skinnys in a raft. These are well funded and equipped pirates working for crime syndications (my guess, Russian). They've got inside info on maritime shipping schedules, routes and manifests. It's too much of a coincidence that the ships getting hit have "interesting" cargo. (weapons or food, for example.) Also, too coincidental that they know exactly where they are (and the naval ships aren't)...
Hmm, I wonder where the money comes from...
What needs to be done will never be done as long as Barry The Kenyan is in the WH...
He will simply monitor the situation and take credit if it goes good and tell the world how sad he is if it goes bad...
:mad:
Negative on the prohibition on commercial ships. They are free to lock & load, from a legal standpoint. All bets are off on the policy of the boat owner.
Correct...somewhat. The crew of the vessels I believe cannot carry weapons, but there is nothing that I've read, that says the merchant companies can't hire PMCs for security.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
IIRC some companies were doing that fairly recently in the other pirate haven- the Straits of Malacca. The gov't of Singapore I believe said that they were not going to allow PMC's to operate in their waters. I think there have been other countries with similar sentiments.
Correct...somewhat. The crew of the vessels I believe cannot carry weapons, but there is nothing that I've read, that says the merchant companies can't hire PMCs for security.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Iraq Ninja
04-09-09, 23:07
I got a friend working maritime security... unarmed. They use water hoses and axe handles. Not my idea of a good gig.
When the pirates start killing people, things will change.
From what I have seen numerous times, the logic appears to be that if you arm the crews it will only heighten the chance of catastrophe when pirates attack. In other words, don't do anything to really piss off the aggressors, or they might shoot even more RPG's at you...:rolleyes:
Could this same horrendously weak logic be used against owning a firearm to defend ones' home? Or against arming commercial pilots? Even armed contractors operating in a hostile zone?
It is beyond lame. Just arm the fu*king crews already. Not rocket science, just common sense dictated by circumstance.
K.L. Davis
04-09-09, 23:59
On the High Seas, those waters beyond the recognized boundary of any Nation, there are only three prohibitions under International Law -- None of which specifically prohibit weapons on a vessel.
The problem is that the vessel is subject to the laws of the territorial waters that they are in, when they are not on the High Seas... this means that unless the vessel *never* made port, and carefully navigated around the vast amounts of regulated waters around the many thousand of small islands around the World, they would eventually be subject to the laws of one nation or another.
Factoring in the ease of establishing Constructive Presence, as well as some Nation's control of their Flag, regardless of where it is... and the fact that many countries weapon laws are far more draconian than ours: there are indeed legal issues and limits what would, sooner or later, likely come into play.
CarlosDJackal
04-10-09, 12:55
I just understand this whole thing. Hijacking a Freighter from a Dingy is like hijacking a bus from a scooter. Wouldn't it be easier to just turn into the bastards once they come alongside? :confused:
LittleRedToyota
04-10-09, 13:15
I just understand this whole thing. Hijacking a Freighter from a Dingy is like hijacking a bus from a scooter. Wouldn't it be easier to just turn into the bastards once they come alongside? :confused:
with the proper weaponry, i don't think hijacking a bus from a scooter would be too terribly difficult.
also, at speeds that would actually make the analogy work, i don't think it would be too terribly difficult for a scooter to avoid being hit by the bus.
The problem is that the vessel is subject to the laws of the territorial waters that they are in, when they are not on the High Seas... this means that unless the vessel *never* made port, and carefully navigated around the vast amounts of regulated waters around the many thousand of small islands around the World, they would eventually be subject to the laws of one nation or another.
Great points. I would say the nations that want, or even need, the items carried on board the ships must allow them to defend themselves or forfeit having the items delivered period. Once docked, the weapons must be stored properly or charges can be filed.
As far as navigating through one nations waters to get to another, there are ways around just about anything. If you can't literally go around, then give some feasible incentive to allow armed crews to sail through the uptight nations waters under strict guidelines.
All I am saying is that there has got to be a better solution to this very dangerous problem other than fire hoses and loudspeakers against machine guns and RPG's.
Great points. I would say the nations that want, or even need, the items carried on board the ships must allow them to defend themselves or forfeit having the items delivered period. Once docked, the weapons must be stored properly or charges can be filed.
As far as navigating through one nations waters to get to another, there are ways around just about anything. If you can't literally go around, then give some feasible incentive to allow armed crews to sail through the uptight nations waters under strict guidelines.
All I am saying is that there has got to be a better solution to this very dangerous problem other than fire hoses and loudspeakers against machine guns and RPG's.
Sounds like a business opportunity.
LittleRedToyota
04-10-09, 13:47
All I am saying is that there has got to be a better solution to this very dangerous problem other than fire hoses and loudspeakers against machine guns and RPG's.
i remember reading maybe 6 months back about a cruise ship that used some sort of sonic weapon to repel pirates and it actually worked. they didn't go into specifics to not give away exactly how the technology works, but you could prolly find out at least the basics.
so, it seems there are some options being developed.
From new reports the pirates have summoned assistance from other of their kind.
I would assume that any ship that tried to resupply or otherwise aid these pirates would be dealt with harshly. Am I wrong in my assumption?
Buckaroo
Nathan_Bell
04-10-09, 15:40
i remember reading maybe 6 months back about a cruise ship that used some sort of sonic weapon to repel pirates and it actually worked. they didn't go into specifics to not give away exactly how the technology works, but you could prolly find out at least the basics.
so, it seems there are some options being developed.
Just equip the ships with extra "navigational" radars. Former Air Force buddy of mine told stories of the safety briefings on locking out the power to the set, it was normally accompanied by them throwing a chunk of steel wool infront of the emitter and watching it burst into flame.
I would think that Jiffy Popped Pirate would be the end result of this type of system on the ships.
I would assume that any ship that tried to resupply or otherwise aid these pirates would be dealt with harshly. Am I wrong in my assumption?
I sure hope not. Can't imagine that going down without incident under any circumstance now that the ship already has hostiles on board.
The_War_Wagon
04-10-09, 16:43
Meek makes weak. GREAT policy in the business world... :rolleyes:
In case any hasn't noticed, a ZIM line vessel hasn't been hijacked.
The line is owned by the state of Israel, when they are in port they have a crewman whose job it is to watch everyone who comes aboard. They stand at the gangway and it has been speculated that there is a weapon within reach.
I would assume they are prepared to stop anyone from boarding any of their vessels by any means.
Well as for the Capt. being held hostage right now...Their called NAVY SEALS! They need to run a "Death from Below" kind of operation. The Cap tried to esape today. But they jumped in after him and drug him back. They should have had the predator watching the boat fire a missle at the boat when he jumped in. :D
i remember reading maybe 6 months back about a cruise ship that used some sort of sonic weapon to repel pirates and it actually worked.
That's funny because I remember hearing about a ship hiring a non-lethal security force. When they were hijacked by pirates, the non-lethal security team jumped over board because their non-lethal equipment and techniques weren't effective.
Joe Mamma
We could just bomb Somalia off the face of the planet.
That would work for me.
I'll 2nd that,all in favor.....................
parishioner
04-10-09, 19:26
Here are some current tactics...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HejYngWPV0A :D
On a more serious note, the sitution is getting out of hand. I think they now want 2 million for the captain. Does a private security team cost more than that?
Canonshooter
04-11-09, 10:16
At the moment, if I was the CIC, I'd issue the following directive:
1. Send helicopter to strafe life boat to sink it. With any luck, American hostage won't be hit.
2. Once in water, pirates will have tough time firing weapons.
3. Pick up American hostage.
4. Complete strafing operation.
5. Bonus Points! Find mother ship and sink it.
Submariner
04-11-09, 11:28
With Somali pirates being in the news, this passage from Noam Chomsky comes to mind:
In the City of God, St. Augustine tells the story of a pirate captured by Alexander the Great. The Emperor angrily demanded of him, "How dare you molest the seas?" To which the pirate replied, "How dare you molest the whole world? Because I do it with a small boat, I am called a pirate and a thief. You, with a great navy, molest the world and are called an emperor." St. Augustine thought the pirate's answer was "elegant and excellent."
Best answer I've heard yet...
From
http://corner.nationalreview.com/
On Piracy [Mario Loyola]
The piracy issue pops up every once in a while when a spectacular hijacking hits the news. Two questions normally then arise — and both have already been raised on the Corner today. Cliff May asks why they don't put armed guards on the ships. David Rivkin and Lee Casey examine the muddled international law of the issue, and the box we've worked ourselves into by pretending that we need international permission to vindicate the freedom of the seas.
Cliff's question is crucial, because what is often lost in this discussion is a sense of strategic proportion: What is the weight of the U.S. interest involved? There were over 90 Somali pirate attacks last year, resulting in about 40 successful hijackings, with few fatalities. But — this is the crucial point — about 21,000 merchant vessels transit the Horn of Africa region every year. With profit margins as razor-thin as they are in the merchant shipping industry, it would be expensive to add an effective force of armed guards to all of those crews — apparently too expensive to make it worthwhile given the risk (and given the alternative of avoiding the area altogether and taking the longer route about the Cape of Good Hope). Any ship transiting the Horn of Africa has less than a 1 in 200 chance of being hijacked, even with the upsurge of recent years. Moreover, virtually none of those ships are American flags or (more important) American crews. (One exception is ships that bear international food aid to Somalis — and protecting those is the mission of a specific NATO task force.) Obviously their success can't be judged by this one failure.
I don't think it's fair to describe the performance of the U.S. or even European navies in this area as "lame." Their presence in the lower Red Sea, Gulf of Aden, and the nearby areas of the Indian Ocean have an incalculable and probably huge deterrent effect on piracy, and have likely reduced what would otherwise be intolerable levels of piracy to levels that are commensurate with free navigation in the area. If it were otherwise, the route would not be among the world's most heavily transited by merchant ships — it is not catastrophically more expensive to go around the Cape of Good Hope, as thousands do. In the early 19th century the ravages of the Barbary Pirates were starting to materially hurt the American economy, which is why we organized our first navy to fight it. Piracy probably was never totally "eradicated;" more likely, it was just reduced to commercially acceptable levels. The situation today is not so different: the U.S. Navy and its international partners are forcing the Somali pirates to operate far out into the Indian Ocean, which is much more difficult for pirates to reach, and where their targets are much more dispersed. The effect is that what could be a strategic threat to vital U.S. interests simply isn't.
The U.S. Navy would likely resist any attempt to increase assets committed to the anti-piracy task force at the expense of other missions. And Central Command would certainly fight off any suggestion of a mission to root the pirates out of their bases, which would entail a great commitment of force and a great loss of civilian life to root out at an enemy that isn't terribly deadly or strategically dangerous to begin with—not to mention the nebulous prospects of victory that would attend any such mission. When Navy commanders point to the rule-of-law and good governance in Somalia as the only ultimate solution to this problem, they are consciously pointing to goals that cannot be accomplished by the U.S. military at any cost remotely commensurate with the U.S. interest involved.
However, if the U.S. should not necessarily expand its anti-piracy operations, it should certainly expand (or restore) the scope of the right we claim to defend the freedom of the seas. Here is where the Rivkin/Casey analysis is crucial. We can expect liberal transnationalists (and, for want of clearer operational authorities, the military itself) to call for international tribunals and the like to handle pirates. This must be seen as another assault on U.S. sovereignty. The U.S. should vindicate a right to fight, detain, prosecute, and punish pirates every bit as broad as that which we vindicated in the early decades of the Republic.
Submariner
04-11-09, 15:13
Letters of marque and reprisal could be granted for a free market solution to the piracy issue. Wouldn't cost the taxpayer very much, either.
Carne Frio
04-11-09, 15:20
Ma Deuce times at least 4 on all vessels. Night vision equipment would also be useful.
Train the crew and pay out monetary rewards for good hits on targets. :D
Letters of marque and reprisal could be granted for a free market solution to the piracy issue. Wouldn't cost the taxpayer very much, either.
Blackwater (sorry, Xe) needs a nice new gig, too ...
The solution for this problem has been around since Nov 10 1775 .
SEND IN THE MARINES!!! and keep them there this time.
I know its not going to happen but thats what the Marines are for.
We tried that with that country before remember?
Submariner
04-12-09, 07:26
Blackwater (sorry, Xe) needs a nice new gig, too ...
No cost plus fixed fee contract.
They get Somali booty!
Has anyone contacted Duane yet? This could have all been solved weeks ago people. We have this resource on hand and we should be using it.
mike benedict
04-12-09, 11:20
The perfect answer to the pirate problem
http://www.battleshipnewjersey.org/images/press_room/images-detail/image-9.jpg
I'd be more than happy to deploy on a ship as a rifleman to defend it from assholes as best I can for not much more than room and board to escape this craptasic life I'm slowly dieing from each and every day anyway. Pretty sure I could round up at least a few good former service men that would kill for the opertunity to have their lives to mean something again also. I'm not sure the laws out at sea, but the money isn't a problem when hiring the willing.
Glock Holiday
04-12-09, 13:29
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/3051/navyseal4.jpg (http://img21.imageshack.us/my.php?image=navyseal4.jpg)
US Navy SEALS rescue captain and blast pirates....
Go SEALS :D
the1911fan
04-12-09, 13:55
3 out 4 pirates dead..captain rescued..whoever did the rescuing..great job
Iraq Ninja
04-12-09, 15:05
Well, that is how the professionals do it. Its all about Talking, Timing, and Tactics. This is why they went to the SEALS, and not internet forums to get advice on how to handle it.. :)
M4tographer
04-12-09, 15:39
Well, that is how the professionals do it. Its all about Talking, Timing, and Tactics. This is why they went to the SEALS, and not internet forums to get advice on how to handle it.. :)
I can't find any articles saying who/how yet. :(
The perfect answer to the pirate problem
http://www.battleshipnewjersey.org/images/press_room/images-detail/image-9.jpg
Too bad all the Battleships are now Museums.
M4tographer
04-12-09, 15:42
I can't find any articles saying who/how yet. :(
Disregard...found it. :D:D:D
Surmising from the just ended press conf and commentary as broadcast on Foxnews:
Decision to shoot was a local judgement call based on imminent threat. Under ROE authority had been given to scene commander to act if necessary.
US shooters firing from the fantail of the Brisbane while towing the lifeboat (that's another story) - range quoted as 25 -30 meters at exposed pirates as one or more crossed some line about posing an imminent threat to Captain Phillips. 3 pirates presented their melons (2 sucking fresh air and 3rd peeking out lifeboat window) simultaneously.
Mr.Goodtimes
04-12-09, 16:47
congratulations to the US Navy SEALS that freed the capt, very well done professional job!
im sure they probably formulated their plans based on what all the e-commandos posted in this thread and the one over on TOS :rolleyes:
The surviving pirate is "cooperating" with authorities.......Perhaps some cabinet post in the administration. As long as he has paid his taxes.
Gotta stand with Barack on this one though. Gave the order and it was executed. Brilliant job by our military.
decodeddiesel
04-12-09, 17:39
Too bad all the Battleships are now Museums.
That is true, but if you research it further you will find that most of the museum ships must be maintained to a certain standard so that they can be returned to active duty with a minimal retro-fit. Also all of the remaining ships must maintain "critical weapons components" such as 16" barrels, turret mechanisms, etc. so they can be retro-fit onto any battleships returned to AD. Perhaps in this day and age having the "Mighty Mo" trolling the waters off the of Somalia might be a great idea. :D
http://www.g2mil.com/battleships.htm
parishioner
04-12-09, 20:22
They were taken out SIMULTANEOUSLY. God I would never want to be on the wrong end of a SEAL rifle.
All head shots:
link to article: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/12/navy-seals-kill-pirates-rescue-american-hostage
* * * * * * *
Navy Seals Kill Pirates, Rescue American Hostage
Vice Admiral William Gortney, Commander of the U.S. Navy's 5th Fleet, told journalists at the Pentagon a decision was made to shoot after the pirates were spotted pointing an AK-47 into the back of Captain Phillips.
Arlington, Va. -- Captain Richard Phillips is now safe and healthy aboard the USS Boxer after Navy Seals launched a rescue attempt that ended when snipers killed three pirates in three shots, all direct hits to the head.
Vice Admiral William Gortney, Commander of Navy's 5th Fleet, told journalists at the Pentagon Sunday evening a decision was made to take the shots after the pirates were spotted pointing an AK-47 into the back of Captain Phillips.
As soon as the shots were fired, Navy Seals "scurried down" a tow line attached to the lifeboat, and were the first to get to Phillips. They surveyed the scene and found three dead pirates. Phillips was alive, although tied up.
The fourth pirate, who is now in U.S. custody, left the lifeboat hours earlier with the understanding he would negotiate from on board the USS Bainbridge, the massive Navy destroyer that shadowed the lifeboat for several days.
It soon became clear the younger pirate was simply turning himself in and had no intention of going back to lifeboat, according to defense officials.
Shortly after the Seals reached Captain Phillips, a Navy RIB (Rigid Hull Inflatable Boat) approached the life boat and safely escorted Phillips back to the Bainbridge. He has since undergone a medical exam and had the chance to take a shower.
According to Admiral Gortney he's healthy and unharmed.
The scene got "tenuous" according to one official, shortly after the three pirates agreed to let the Bainbridge tow their boat. The sea conditions were worsening and the lifeboat was "floundering" before pirates acknowledged that by establishing a tow, it would be a smoother ride.
But sometime soon after the boats were hooked together, shots were fired from the lifeboat and the pirates were seen holding a gun to Captain Phillips back. Acting on a standing order from President Obama to move in when Phillips was in "imminent danger" snipers were ordered to fire.
They established clear head shots on all three pirates. One of the pirates was visible through the front window, and the other two were revealing their heads through the top hatch, presumably to get fresh air. It would be their last breath.
It was an extremely happy ending to a story that doesn't often end well. Just last week the French lost one hostage after their Navy raided a hijacked sailing yacht.
Admiral Gortney left with a warning that today's outcome could lead to more violence in future hijackings, perhaps in the form of retaliation for losing three of their own.
* * * * * * *
Joe Mamma
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-12-09, 23:46
Now that is an odd ending. Can't wait to see the video, or at least see how the seas and bobbing boat were. Looks like they had the best kind of terrorists, dumb. Glad to see it all ended well. I was getting worried last week when all the family and friends were interviewed saying everything would be OK.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-13-09, 00:26
Looks like that young pirate had at least some sense. "Hmm, I have a rifle, they have a Destroyer. Hmmm."
toasterlocker
04-13-09, 03:23
Not saying I agree with the article or trust the source, but it is an interesting read anyway.
http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=26702
Text below:
You Are Being Lied to About Pirates
by Johann Hari
Who imagined that in 2009, the world’s governments would be declaring a new War on Pirates? As you read this, the British Royal Navy - backed by the ships of more than two dozen nations, from the U.S. to China - is sailing into Somalian waters to take on men we still picture as parrot-on-the-shoulder pantomime villains. They will soon be fighting Somalian ships and even chasing the pirates onto land, into one of the most broken countries on earth.
But behind the arrr-me-hearties oddness of this tale, there is an untold scandal. The people our governments are labeling as “one of the great menaces of our times” have an extraordinary story to tell - and some justice on their side.
Pirates have never been quite who we think they are. In the “golden age of piracy” - from 1650 to 1730 - the idea of the pirate as the senseless, savage thief that lingers today was created by the British government in a great propaganda heave. Many ordinary people believed it was false: Pirates were often rescued from the gallows by supportive crowds. Why? What did they see that we can’t?
In his book “Villains of All Nations,” the historian Marcus Rediker pores through the evidence to find out. If you became a merchant or navy sailor then - plucked from the docks of London’s East End, young and hungry - you ended up in a floating wooden Hell. You worked all hours on a cramped, half-starved ship, and if you slacked off for a second, the all-powerful captain would whip you with the cat o’ nine tails. If you slacked consistently, you could be thrown overboard. And at the end of months or years of this, you were often cheated of your wages.
Pirates were the first people to rebel against this world. They mutinied against their tyrannical captains - and created a different way of working on the seas. Once they had a ship, the pirates elected their captains, and made all their decisions collectively. They shared their bounty out in what Rediker calls “one of the most egalitarian plans for the disposition of resources to be found anywhere in the 18th century.”
They even took in escaped African slaves and lived with them as equals. The pirates showed “quite clearly - and subversively - that ships did not have to be run in the brutal and oppressive ways of the merchant service and the Royal navy.” This is why they were popular, despite being unproductive thieves.
The words of one pirate from that lost age - a young British man called William Scott - should echo into this new age of piracy. Just before he was hanged in Charleston, South Carolina, he said: “What I did was to keep me from perishing. I was forced to go a-pirating to live.”
In 1991, the government of Somalia - in the Horn of Africa - collapsed. Its 9 million people have been teetering on starvation ever since - and many of the ugliest forces in the Western world have seen this as a great opportunity to steal the country’s food supply and dump our nuclear waste in their seas.
Yes: nuclear waste. As soon as the government was gone, mysterious European ships started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping vast barrels into the ocean. The coastal population began to sicken. At first they suffered strange rashes, nausea and malformed babies. Then, after the 2005 tsunami, hundreds of the dumped and leaking barrels washed up on shore. People began to suffer from radiation sickness, and more than 300 died.
Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the U.N. envoy to Somalia, tells me: “Somebody is dumping nuclear material here. There is also lead and heavy metals such as cadmium and mercury - you name it.” Much of it can be traced back to European hospitals and factories, who seem to be passing it on to the Italian mafia to “dispose” of cheaply. When I asked Ould-Abdallah what European governments were doing about it, he said with a sigh: “Nothing. There has been no cleanup, no compensation and no prevention.”
At the same time, other European ships have been looting Somalia’s seas of their greatest resource: seafood. We have destroyed our own fish stocks by over-exploitation - and now we have moved on to theirs. More than $300 million worth of tuna, shrimp, lobster and other sea life is being stolen every year by vast trawlers illegally sailing into Somalia’s unprotected seas.
The local fishermen have suddenly lost their livelihoods, and they are starving. Mohammed Hussein, a fisherman in the town of Marka 100km south of Mogadishu, told Reuters: “If nothing is done, there soon won’t be much fish left in our coastal waters.”
This is the context in which the men we are calling “pirates” have emerged. Everyone agrees they were ordinary Somalian fishermen who at first took speedboats to try to dissuade the dumpers and trawlers, or at least wage a “tax” on them. They call themselves the Volunteer Coast Guard of Somalia - and it’s not hard to see why.
In a surreal telephone interview, one of the pirate leaders, Sugule Ali, said their motive was “to stop illegal fishing and dumping in our waters … We don’t consider ourselves sea bandits. We consider sea bandits [to be] those who illegally fish and dump in our seas and dump waste in our seas and carry weapons in our seas.” William Scott would understand those words.
No, this doesn’t make hostage-taking justifiable, and yes, some are clearly just gangsters - especially those who have held up World Food Program supplies. But the “pirates” have the overwhelming support of the local population for a reason. The independent Somalian news site WardherNews conducted the best research we have into what ordinary Somalis are thinking - and it found 70 percent “strongly supported the piracy as a form of national defense of the country’s territorial waters.”
One of the pirate leaders, Sugule Ali, said their motive was “to stop illegal fishing and dumping in our waters … We don’t consider ourselves sea bandits. We consider sea bandits [to be] those who illegally fish and dump in our seas and dump waste in our seas and carry weapons in our seas.”
During the revolutionary war in America, George Washington and America’s founding fathers paid pirates to protect America’s territorial waters, because they had no navy or coast guard of their own. Most Americans supported them. Is this so different?
Did we expect starving Somalians to stand passively on their beaches, paddling in our nuclear waste, and watch us snatch their fish to eat in restaurants in London and Paris and Rome? We didn’t act on those crimes - but when some of the fishermen responded by disrupting the transit corridor for 20 percent of the world’s oil supply, we begin to shriek about “evil.” If we really want to deal with piracy, we need to stop its root cause - our crimes - before we send in the gunboats to root out Somalia’s criminals.
The story of the 2009 war on piracy was best summarized by another pirate, who lived and died in the fourth century BC. He was captured and brought to Alexander the Great, who demanded to know “what he meant by keeping possession of the sea.” The pirate smiled and responded: “What you mean by seizing the whole earth; but because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, while you, who do it with a great fleet, are called emperor.”
Once again, our great imperial fleets sail in today - but who is the robber?
_________
Johann Hari is a writer for the Independent newspaper. He has reported from Iraq, Israel/ Palestine, the Congo, the Central African Republic, Venezuela, Peru and the U.S., and his journalism has appeared in publications all over the world. To contact him, email johann@johannhari.com or visit his website at JohannHari.com. This column previously appeared in the Independent and Huffington Post, where the following postscript was added:
Postscript: Some commentators seem bemused by the fact that both toxic dumping and the theft of fish are happening in the same place - wouldn’t this make the fish contaminated? In fact, Somalia’s coastline is vast, stretching 3,300km (over 2,000 miles). Imagine how easy it would be - without any coast guard or army - to steal fish from Florida and dump nuclear waste on California, and you get the idea. These events are happening in different places but with the same horrible effect: death for the locals and stirred-up piracy. There’s no contradiction.
Actually if you read the other press releases and not the White House propaganda the decision was made by the local commander after it was determined that Capt. Phillips was in imminent danger.
The surviving pirate is "cooperating" with authorities.......Perhaps some cabinet post in the administration. As long as he has paid his taxes.
Gotta stand with Barack on this one though. Gave the order and it was executed. Brilliant job by our military.
Dan Goodwin
04-13-09, 06:29
Watching some of the coverage last evening I saw what appeared to be an SPR in the hands of one dude with a boonie hat on the Bainbridge. Much less than a chip shot at 30 yards for several teams I saw training at MISS back a few years...
And the SEALs "parachuted" into the area before boarding the ship. Thought I heard earlier the Bainbridge is a SpecWar vessel? If so shouldn't there have been Team guys already on board? Think they brought in some DevGru to make a special delivery?
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/3051/navyseal4.jpg (http://img21.imageshack.us/my.php?image=navyseal4.jpg)
US Navy SEALS rescue captain and blast pirates....
Go SEALS :D
Now the Pirates Spokes person if you will, came out and made an apperance stating that the U.S.A had done it now!:eek::D They said since we didnt comply and give them 2 mil., that from now on theyd just kill anyone they come along, lol, arrogance i tell ya, seems to me theyre business wouldnt survive if theyre hostiges were dead:confused: And Somalia said they wouldnt arrest them when they got on shore:mad: they must be getting a cut of that estimated $100 billion a year ransom business. I think its funny how when they first took the captain all you heard was how they couldnt get to him, and mysteriously a SEAL team simueltaniously took 3 out and probably made the 4th crap his pants, save the captain and disappeared!:D God bless the SEALs!:p
Just last week the French lost one hostage after their Navy raided a hijacked sailing yacht.
Maybe the SEALS can give the French navy some lessons on hostage rescue. :D
Kudos to the 3 SEAL snipers.
madisonsfinest
04-13-09, 07:31
Actually if you read the other press releases and not the White House propaganda the decision was made by the local commander after it was determined that Capt. Phillips was in imminent danger.
I don't think it was carried out immediately after a discussion with the President, but you can believe that the President was contacted and gave the ROE here.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-13-09, 08:28
I don't picture BHO sitting by his satellite feed monitor with a phone in one hand and the new puppy in another, saying "Send it".
Drums on shore, there has to be residue. Sounds like typical anti-western prop. Sounds like a movie.
We tried that with that country before remember?
Actually they did try that, and while the Marines were there, they did not have problems. Those started when the Army took over.
Well, that is how the professionals do it. Its all about Talking, Timing, and Tactics. This is why they went to the SEALS, and not internet forums to get advice on how to handle it.. :)
What are you talking about, they sent me a PM to ask what I thought they should do:cool::rolleyes::D
RogerinTPA
04-13-09, 09:06
We tried that with that country before remember?
Not in context. The original mission was humanitarian relief and to provide security for that operation, which turned into a combat operation after severe mission creep, if you are referring to the Blackhawk Down episode...
decodeddiesel
04-13-09, 09:14
Not in context. The original mission was humanitarian relief and to provide security for that operation, which turned into a combat operation after severe mission creep, if you are referring to the Blackhawk Down episode...
Not to mention the complete and utter improper usage of SOF due to a clueless and incompetent Commander-in-chief.
RogerinTPA
04-13-09, 09:27
Not to mention the complete and utter improper usage of SOF due to a clueless and incompetent Commander-in-chief.
You can thank the 4 star Turkish General (The overall commander for the humanitarian relief effort, who I flew several times over there) for that one, wanting to stage day light raids and dog & pony shows, to make a political statement by taking on Adide, in an attempt to stabilize the country. That is why no US Forces will ever be commanded by a foreign officer again.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-13-09, 09:34
Saw in some news report that ships are being asked to take greater defensive measure, including private security forces. The other measure was to remove ladders that reach down to the water line.
One option might be cheaper than the other.
Something tells me that it probably did not go down that way. Although it may look sexy in Hollywood the commander on the ground (or water) is not going to be in direct contact with the POTUS. From what I understand the situation unfolded too fast for that to have happened. Though it is quite possible that Barry passed down to the command ahead of time.
Either way the comment from the White House about Barrys leadership, blah, blah, blah was nothing but a sound byte.
I don't think it was carried out immediately after a discussion with the President, but you can believe that the President was contacted and gave the ROE here.
Nathan_Bell
04-13-09, 10:50
Saw this on another forum, annoyed at myself for not recalling the info.
USS Bainbridge DDG96
Have a feeling that the ship's name sake is somewhere smiling that a ship of his name stopped an American sailor from being taken by Islamic pirates.
EzGoingKev
04-13-09, 10:52
You can thank the 4 star Turkish General (The overall commander for the humanitarian relief effort, who I flew several times over there) for that one, wanting to stage day light raids and dog & pony shows, to make a political statement by taking on Adide, in an attempt to stabilize the country. That is why no US Forces will ever be commanded by a foreign officer again.
He might have been part of the problem but to me the buck stopped with Clinton.
decodeddiesel
04-13-09, 11:01
Look at what reuters is reporting:
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE53A1LP20090413?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews
By Abdi Sheikh and Abdi Guled
MOGADISHU (Reuters) - The crew of a U.S. ship attacked off Somalia called on President Barack Obama to lead the battle to stamp out piracy on Monday, after U.S. forces freed the ship's captain to end a five-day hostage drama.
Navy snipers shot dead three Somali pirates holding Captain Richard Phillips in a drifting lifeboat circled by U.S. warships. Other pirates vowed revenge on Americans.
More than 250 hostages of many nationalities are still being held along the Somali coast by pirates who have seized dozens of vessels, from tankers to yachts, in recent months.
Helicopters once again flew over pirate bases near Eyl on the Somali coast overnight after Phillips' rescue.
"They killed our friends on the lifeboat and we thought helicopters would bomb us in Eyl last night," a pirate in Eyl, who called himself Farah, told Reuters.
"We were mourning for dead friends and then roaring planes came -- grief upon grief. America has become our new enemy."
The U.S. Navy said the decision to shoot Phillips' kidnappers was a split-second one, taken because he appeared to be in "imminent danger."
"They were pointing the AK-47s at the captain," Vice Admiral William Gortney, head of the U.S. Naval Central Command, said.
"The on-scene commander took it as the captain was in imminent danger and then made that decision and he had the authorities to make that decision and he had seconds to make that decision." A fourth pirate was captured alive.
President Barack Obama granted the Pentagon's request for standing authority to use appropriate force, Gortney said.
Phillips, captain of the U.S.-flagged Maersk Alabama container ship, contacted his family after the rescue, received a medical check, and rested aboard the USS Boxer.
CREW JUBILANT
His crew set off flares, hoisted an American flag and jumped for joy at the news of their captain's rescue.
They called on Obama to take the lead in combating piracy.
"America has to be in the forefront to put an end to this crisis ... This crew was lucky to be out of it with everyone alive. We are not going to be that lucky again," first nautical officer Shane Murphy told reporters in Kenya's Mombasa port.
Phillips was the first American taken by pirates who have plundered ships in the Gulf of Aden and Indian Ocean for years.
An Italian tugboat hijacked in the Gulf of Aden arrived at Las Qoray on the north Somali coast on Sunday, residents said.
"Well-armed pirates on the tugboat ordered us to keep away from areas near them. Two of the pirates came down to town to persuade residents to allow them to stay but I don't know the outcome," fisherman Jama Feysal told Reuters by phone.
The tug, carrying 10 Italians, 5 Romanians and a Croatian, was seized on Saturday. Mohamed Salah Dubeys, a Somaliland military commander, said the pirates were also holding two Egyptian ships with 24 other hostages in the area.
Obama, spared another thorny foreign policy crisis to add to his problems with the U.S. economic meltdown and the war in Afghanistan, vowed to curb piracy.
"To achieve that goal, we must continue to work with our partners to prevent future attacks, be prepared to interdict acts of piracy and ensure that those who commit acts of piracy are held accountable for their crimes," he said in a statement.
U.S. congressman Donald Payne flew to Mogadishu on Monday, making what is believed to be the first visit to the Somali capital by a senior American politician since 1994. Mortars were fired at him as he left by plane.
PIRATES VOW REVENGE
Somali pirates vowed to avenge the U.S. shootings of their comrades, as well as a French military assault to rescue a yacht on Friday in which two pirates were killed and three captured.
"The French and the Americans will regret starting this killing. We do not kill, but take only ransom. We shall do something to anyone we see as French or American from now," Hussein, a pirate, told Reuters by satellite phone.
The Maersk Alabama, carrying food aid for Somalis, was attacked far out in the Indian Ocean on Wednesday, but its 20 American crew regained control. Phillips volunteered to go with the pirates in a lifeboat in exchange for the crew's safety.
"The actions of Captain Phillips and the civilian mariners of Maersk-Alabama were heroic," Gortney said. "Captain Phillips selflessly put his life in the hands of these armed criminals in order to protect his crew."
Friends of the pirates told Reuters they wanted $2 million.
Local elder Ismail Haji Ahmed told Reuters by phone from the coastal village of Eyl, a notorious pirate base: "Roaring helicopters terrified us so much that no one slept last night.
"If we could flee from Eyl, the planes could bomb the pirates. We were confined to our houses and could not even go to latrines."
So far, pirates have generally treated hostages well, sometimes roasting goat meat for them and even letting them phone loved ones. The worst violence has been the occasional beating. No hostages are known to have been killed by pirates.
(Additional reporting by David Morgan and Randall Mikkelsen in Washington, Abdi Sheikh and Ibrahim Mohamed in Mogadishu, Jack Kimball, Celestine Achieng and Njuwa Maina in Mombasa, Andrew Cawthorne and Abdiaziz Hassan in Nairobi, Abdiqani Hassan in Garowe; editing by Andrew Roche)
Aww gee wiz, isn't that just too bad. :rolleyes:
Of course BHO and his cabinet of bleeding heart morons are sure to read smut like this and feel like they have to consider the "human factor". I'm sure they believe these poor people who are only conducting these acts of piracy "to feed their families" and blah blah blah. I am quite sure decisive action will not be taken here.
Make me POTUS or CJCS for a week and I can almost guarantee that the problem in certain areas there will all but disappear. There will be leaflets dropped, and then bombs, followed by an amphibious landing and air assault into the pirates nest. I may even drop a MOAB or two to let them know that we are serious.
losbronces
04-13-09, 11:46
Look at what reuters is reporting:
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE53A1LP20090413?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews
Aww gee wiz, isn't that just too bad. :rolleyes:
Of course BHO and his cabinet of bleeding heart morons are sure to read smut like this and feel like they have to consider the "human factor". I'm sure they believe these poor people who are only conducting these acts of piracy "to feed their families" and blah blah blah. I am quite sure decisive action will not be taken here.
Its interesting how the "I'm a victim" mentallity leads to easy justification for victimizing others. BHO has always bought into that mentallity.
In my opinion, we won't see decisive action here, against North Korea, against the Mexican drug gangs, against Iran...and the list goes on.
"The French and the Americans will regret starting this killing. We do not kill, but take only ransom. We shall do something to anyone we see as French or American from now," Hussein, a pirate, told Reuters by satellite phone.
Pirates as victims of the U.S. government. I love it. Hopefully, it will become an addition to my weekly television schedule.
Actually if you read the other press releases and not the White House propaganda the decision was made by the local commander after it was determined that Capt. Phillips was in imminent danger.
True but he would not have done so if the ROE did not allow it and those have to have been approved by the WH I imagine.
Anyway, good for the WH and for the SEALs and others involved.
no US Forces will ever be commanded by a foreign officer again. Nor should they ever have been
parishioner
04-13-09, 18:01
I just heard BHO on this topic and he said "......to halt the rise of privacy in that region....."
Ahh, the eloquance. I thought Bush was the only person who could ever misspeak. :confused:
When I was in the USCG in that general area the ROE were clearly laid out before we got underway. I am fairly certain in this case the same was done because of the dynamics involved.
True but he would not have done so if the ROE did not allow it and those have to have been approved by the WH I imagine.
Anyway, good for the WH and for the SEALs and others involved.
EvilSpeculator556
04-13-09, 21:33
....because fire hoses don't shoot lead.
I just heard BHO on this topic and he said "......to halt the rise of privacy in that region....."
Ahh, the eloquance. I thought Bush was the only person who could ever misspeak. :confused:
Well, Ronnie Reagan once said "...facts are stupid things; or stubborn things, I should say..."
There's no love lost between me and POTUS, but anybody can throw out a Freudian slip now and then.
decodeddiesel
04-14-09, 08:40
Looks like they snatched a Greek ship and a Togo-flagged ship last night. They really need to do something about this crap.
Well, Ronnie Reagan once said "...facts are stupid things; or stubborn things, I should say..."
There's no love lost between me and POTUS, but anybody can throw out a Freudian slip now and then.
Except Ronnie corrected himself right away, because he was speaking, not reading from a Teleprompter
IIRC some companies were doing that fairly recently in the other pirate haven- the Straits of Malacca. The gov't of Singapore I believe said that they were not going to allow PMC's to operate in their waters. I think there have been other countries with similar sentiments.
This is WAYYYYY off the subject of pirates, but "Iraqgunz" where can i get that avatar :D i been googlin it for ever and cant seem to find anything. I think ima print it out if i get it and tape it up anywhere a liberal will pass by just to piss em off:eek::D
A friend that I know made it for me. It came about after I started putting "Change....one magazine at a time" in my sig line. Unfortunately, it is only a small avatar sized pic.
This is WAYYYYY off the subject of pirates, but "Iraqgunz" where can i get that avatar :D i been googlin it for ever and cant seem to find anything. I think ima print it out if i get it and tape it up anywhere a liberal will pass by just to piss em off:eek::D
haha, cool man, ill have to rig up somthin like this:D
HiggsBoson
04-14-09, 18:48
A friend that I know made it for me. It came about after I started putting "Change....one magazine at a time" in my sig line. Unfortunately, it is only a small avatar sized pic.
I can 'shop something up if you like.
I can 'shop something up if you like.
yeah man that'd be sweet, does it take alot of time? cause i dont need it that bad. But im kinda computer illiterate:confused::p By the way, didnt you have a image link to it yesterday? or was i just halucinating? I didnt get to here i just checked my email and it had "image links" i think is what they called em. one of the pics were small and the other was fairly big. PM me if youd like,lol i think ive wondered off the topic of this thread!
telecustom
04-15-09, 08:56
I just read this article about 'letters of mark'. I think it could be a viable option. What do you all think?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090415/pl_politico/21245
Ron Paul's plan to fend off pirates
Erika Lovley Erika Lovley – Wed Apr 15, 5:16 am ET
A little-known congressional power could help the federal government keep the Somali pirates in check — and possibly do it for a discount price.
Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) and a growing number of national security experts are calling on Congress to consider using letters of marque and reprisal, a power written into the Constitution that allows the United States to hire private citizens to keep international waters safe.
Used heavily during the Revolution and the War of 1812, letters of marque serve as official warrants from the government, allowing privateers to seize or destroy enemies, their loot and their vessels in exchange for bounty money.
The letters also require would-be thrill seekers to post a bond promising to abide by international rules of war.
In a YouTube video earlier this week, Paul suggested lawmakers consider issuing letters, which could relieve American naval ships from being the nation’s primary pirate responders — a free-market solution to make the high seas safer for cargo ships.
“I think if every potential pirate knew this would be the case, they would have second thoughts because they could probably be blown out of the water rather easily if those were the conditions,” Paul said.
Theoretically, hiring bounty hunters would also be a cheaper option.
National security experts estimate that this week’s ship captain rescue by Navy SEALs cost tens of millions, although a Navy spokesman says the military cannot confirm the exact cost of the mission.
Instead, privateers would be incentivized to patrol the ocean looking for key targets — and money would be paid only to the contractor who completed the job.
“If we have 100 American wanna-be Rambos patrolling the seas, it’s probably a good way of getting the job done,” said Competitive Enterprise Institute senior fellow and security expert Eli Lehrer. “Right now we have a Navy designed mostly to fight other navies. The weapons we have are all excellent, but they may not be the best ones to fight these kinds of pirates. The only cost under letters of marque would be some sort of bounty for the pirates.”
According to Senate historians, Congress hasn’t issued a letter of marquee since the War of 1812, but the Confederate States of America issued them during the Civil War to deliver supplies behind enemy lines. There are also some indications that a letter was granted to a flying band of armed civilians during World War II to operate the Resolute, a Goodyear Blimp used to patrol the ocean for enemy submarines, but the issuance isn’t apparent in the Congressional Record.
If Congress were to revisit the antiquated process, a serious makeover would be required.
In the past, privateers were allowed to keep the ship and treasure they captured in an enemy encounter.
“That isn’t a viable way of funding in today’s world,” said Lehrer. “These pirates don’t really have treasure chests, and their money is tied up in Swiss Bank accounts. Congress would probably have to attach sizable bounties to people.”
Bounties are not a new idea — there is still a $25 million bounty on Osama bin Laden, and millions have been awarded by the government for other enemy captures.
The U.S. State Department earlier this month put a $5 million bounty on the head of the top Pakistani Taliban leader, and even local police departments use rewards to solve cold cases.
University of Oregon economics professor Bill Harbaugh argues the setup could potentially work better than some of the United States’ relationships with modern-day security contractors.
“Obviously, this is somewhat like the contract the government had with Blackwater, except we forgot the bond part of the contract, he said. “If Congress had used this contract from 1776, it would have been more sophisticated than the one they issued with Blackwater.”
Harbaugh’s fifth great-grandfather, Silas Talbot, worked as an early privateer for the United States in 1780 after serving in the Revolutionary War. His letter of marque shows he set out with 12 carriage guns and a crew of 50 men to attack and seize cargo ships coming from Great Britain on the high seas.
Could it really work again?
“It may work in the sense that if you give people incentives to fight piracy, you’ll see more action taken against it,” said Andrew Grotto, a senior national security analyst with the Center for American Progress. “The ocean is huge and, practically speaking, there’s no way the Navy can prevent piracy; it’s too big. But just given the experience in Iraq with private contractors, that effort showcases the difficulties dealing with folks who aren’t answerable to anyone but shareholders.”
But Paul has already thought through a number of these updates.
Days after Sept. 11, Paul introduced legislation allowing President Bush to allow private citizens to go after Osama bin Laden and other identified terrorists and put a bounty price on the heads of targets responsible for the New York attacks. Contractors would also be required to post a play-by-the-rules bond and turn over any terrorists — and their seized property —to U.S. authorities.
“The Constitution gives Congress the power to issue letters of marque and reprisal when a precise declaration of war is impossible due to the vagueness of the enemy,” Paul wrote in a press release. “Once letters of marque and reprisal are issued, every terrorist is essentially a marked man.”
But national security experts and legal analysts warn that applying a colonial-era policy to a modern-day problem could be wrought with legal pitfalls that the Founding Fathers never encountered.
If bounty hunters chase pirates into territorial coastal waters or on to the shore of another country, the problem would fall under the jurisdiction of that country. And any plundering activity that takes place in coastal waters is no longer considered piracy, according to College of William and Mary national security law professor Linda Malone.
Not to mention that there’s also no clear indication where and how the captured pirates should be prosecuted.
“You have to find a stable court system nearby to have them tried for these offenses, but that can be quite complicated,” Malone said. “The fact that the pirates are from Somalia doesn’t make them state actors. They are doing this for private gain.”
And how to determine exactly who is a pirate — and what constitutes pirate activity — could get fuzzy.
“What happens when a ship flying under Congress accidentally takes out an aid ship bound for Somalia?” Grotto said. “At what time does an act seem pirate-like enough to cross the line? Do we really want these snap judgments being made on the fly in waters thousands of miles away from Washington? This is not Johnny Depp we’re dealing with.”
Gutshot John
04-15-09, 15:40
Wow even the French are making us look like a bunch of wussies.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/15/somalia.pirates/index.html
Gutshot,
Though the French may be the butt of our jokes they have acted several times to free hostages. I think we need to fly over the land base areas that are being used and drop flyers indicating that we are going to take action. We will allow them 48 hours to surrender their weapons and release all hostages.
Should that not happen we will detonate a MOAB on the edge of the city (which will scare them shitless) and then drop leaflets again telling them that that was our warning and the next one will fall dead center. Then we will send in 20000 combat troops (not a bunch of REMF's) and we will begin cordon and search operations. Let's see if that sends them the right message.
Gutshot John
04-15-09, 20:54
Should that not happen we will detonate a MOAB on the edge of the city (which will scare them shitless) and then drop leaflets again telling them that that was our warning and the next one will fall dead center. Then we will send in 20000 combat troops (not a bunch of REMF's) and we will begin cordon and search operations. Let's see if that sends them the right message.
Though I don't dispute for one second the wisdom of your plan, our current political leadership lacks the courage to implement it.
In short...they make the French look good. Scary huh?
PS I say this as a Francophile having lived there growing up.
I heard Col Danny McKnight (not sure if Col or LTC so I'll round up) on the radio advocating a ground campaign to destroy pirate bases also.
I have my doubts that the operational tempo for the combat brigades in recent years leaves much room (ie capacity) for adding another theater for them.
I think it's gonna be liimited to wack a mole on the high seas for a good while.
variablebinary
04-16-09, 06:53
I hate pirates. Rat bastards, the lot of them. While far too many are worrying about a bunch of starved Africans in flip flops, guess what is happening to your kid's future and your tax dollars.
The real pirates arent all that far away...
http://chinadigitaltimes.net/wp-content/uploads/mt-old/500px-Henry_Paulson_official_Treasury_photo,_2006.jpg
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/11/21/us/politics/geithner533.jpg
http://www.allamericanpatriots.com/files/images/100722143_a6b7eb4887_o.jpg
You know whats ironiclly funny in a sick way? I know some liberals, that cant really back what they beleive or why they beleive it and they try to defend piracy in these countries!!! How can they pull this stuff outa theira$$?! Its like when somthing wrong is done theyre there to tell you it wasnt really wrong but justified! Theyre argument was that its okay to rob ships, take hostiges, kill them, all because theirs not a whole lot of jobs in somalia and the other countries in the pirate ring. Thats like saying its ok to rob banks, kill casheir clerks, take them for hostige because you just lost your job!!!:confused: The logic of these people is astounding to say the least. I think ill go with Iraqgunz's plan to strike the fear of God in these guys:D MOAB's would be the bomb:p
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