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williejc
04-11-09, 16:47
I understand Doc's research on handgun bullets and incapacitation and am aware of the many disadvantages of using fmj ammo for self-defense. I follow his advice.

My question: If a criminal assailant received 3-4 center of mass hits with 9mm Nato ammo, can we assume that incapacitation probability would be similar to one such hit with the latest Win or Fed recommended ammo?

Thanks,
Williejc

DocGKR
04-11-09, 17:57
No, you cannot assume that.

Heavy Metal
04-11-09, 18:27
Doc,

Is there a synergistic effect of multiple same caliber projectiles striking at the same time?

Say a pattern of single O buck striking the torso verses the same group of .32 ACP in the same number of projectiles.

how would the two wounds likely differ?

tpd223
04-13-09, 00:14
The probability of incapacitation would depend on what structures in the bad guy's body were hit.

Eric Kozowski
04-13-09, 12:30
And a .32 buckshot pellet certainly behaves differently than a .32 handgun bullet. And, as TPD223 said, shot placement, as always, has a lot to do with the terminal effect.

Ring
04-13-09, 21:26
a local CCW in a pizza shop just shot a robber holding a shot gun 4 times in the chest point blank with 9mm WWB FMJ 124gr.

the guy guy fell down, and then got back up, the CCW shot another 3 times, all 7 hit his chest. gun was S&W M&P

the BG ran out and another 75 yards down the street before droping and dieing on the sidewalk.

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29852

NEVER USE FMJ FOR DEFENSE!

WS6
04-14-09, 02:48
a local CCW in a pizza shop just shot a robber holding a shot gun 4 times in the chest point blank with 9mm WWB FMJ 124gr.

the guy guy fell down, and then got back up, the CCW shot another 3 times, all 7 hit his chest. gun was S&W M&P

the BG ran out and another 75 yards down the street before droping and dieing on the sidewalk.

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29852

NEVER USE FMJ FOR DEFENSE!

Never saw any reference for 124gr FMJ being used.

ETA: Found a quote from someone who knows him claiming it was "WWB FMJ".

The bullet-hole in the window is further reason not to carry FMJ. ALl rounds hit...something musta gone a bit too far...

tpd223
04-14-09, 02:57
"In the chest" does not tell us what structures were hit in the bad guy's body, which is the only important thing here.

Pistols poke holes in things, if we have to shoot bad guys then it's our job to put those holes in places that matter.

Having the bad guy run away and collapse is meaningless. This happens in the normal course of fights. I was on hand when a bad guy took a hit through the chest with a .45, this hit severed his aorta, yet he far from just dropped in his tracks.

If deer can run, often hundreds of yards, after being hit through both lungs and heart with such rounds as a 30-06, why would we expect that bullets of much less power will drop people in their tracks?

Ball ammo is not the first choice for defense, but far more important is tactics, mindset, weapon skill and shot placement.

Alvin York and Audie Murphy were carrying ball ammo.


Even when using high quality modern JHP ammo, bullets often exit shot bad guys, mainly due to the area being hit not having enough meat to get the bullet stopped.

Just sayin.

TiroFijo
04-14-09, 07:56
[QUOTE=tpd223;349634]
If deer can run, often hundreds of yards, after being hit through both lungs and heart with such rounds as a 30-06, why would we expect that bullets of much less power will drop people in their tracks?
Ball ammo is not the first choice for defense, but far more important is tactics, mindset, weapon skill and shot placement.

Alvin York and Audie Murphy were carrying ball ammo.
QUOTE]

Very well said :)

Iīm donīt hunt much since I prefer rifle/pistol target shooting and IPSC, but the first times I went hunting with friends it was a real eye opener on how much damage the animals can take and keep on running... one drops right there, the next runs away like crazy, even using a rifle the difference of a fraction of an inch in hole location makes a big difference.

A few times we shot at close distance at running feral pigs in the bush (domestic ones turned wild) with hangunds, several fast shots. I used pistols (45 and 9) and revolvers (357 and 44 mag) with non expanding bullets, and if you donīt hit them in a vital zone they keep going like nothing. The 45, 9 and 357 were about the same, perhaps the 44 had a little more shock, but nothing to make you even remotely confident about one shot stops...

Ring
04-14-09, 09:34
easy ways to explane it to people is ask them if they would use field points or broadheads to hunt dear and ask them why.

1 punches a hole, 1 cuts a wide path

a buddy i varmit with decided he wanted to save $ this year so he bought 223 FMJ to groundhog hunt..

i told him this was a bad idea, he didnt believe me till he shot the same hog 2 times and it still ran away

he then went and bought some 53gr BTHP's heads and had me pull all the FMJ's out and reload the BTHP's in the cases.

every shot since hasn't even twitched after the hit and you can now hear the bullets hit with a thud.

Jack-O
04-14-09, 12:00
a local CCW in a pizza shop just shot a robber holding a shot gun 4 times in the chest point blank with 9mm WWB FMJ 124gr.

the guy guy fell down, and then got back up, the CCW shot another 3 times, all 7 hit his chest. gun was S&W M&P

the BG ran out and another 75 yards down the street before droping and dieing on the sidewalk.

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29852

NEVER USE FMJ FOR DEFENSE!


That is not the correct conclusion from that shooting.

I suspect that (as mentioned) no critical structures were hit.

the correct conclusion would be "hit as many critical structures as possible, WITH THE AMMO YOU HAVE, when shooting someone"

TiroFijo
04-14-09, 12:14
I agree with Jack-O, a miss on a critical structure/organ with a JHP will probably be a fairly ineffective shot, at least in the short term, even if the JHP destroys 2.5+ times the tissue as a FMJ.

People are killed just fine all over the world on a daily basis with FMJ ammo, perhaps with a few more shots fired. JHP is better but don't think FMJ is ineffective.

WS6
04-14-09, 14:03
How do we know no vitals were hit? I remember reading a report of a college kid who pointed a weapon into a cop-car to be answered with a blast of OO buck to the chest. He ran 75m before collapsing. The coroner said "The heart and lungs were shredded".

I can easily belive that the 20 year old perp was hit in a vital organ(s) several times with the ammo listed and behaved as he did. He appeared to be relatively in-shape, even if he and his friends are/were misguided.

Eric Kozowski
04-14-09, 18:32
If deer can run, often hundreds of yards, after being hit through both lungs and heart with such rounds as a 30-06, why would we expect that bullets of much less power will drop people in their tracks?


TV

:D

truth
04-14-09, 22:19
a local CCW in a pizza shop just shot a robber holding a shot gun 4 times in the chest point blank with 9mm WWB FMJ 124gr.

the guy guy fell down, and then got back up, the CCW shot another 3 times, all 7 hit his chest. gun was S&W M&P



If he had that much time at that range it's his own damn fault for not ending it with a head shot.

Bolt_Overide
04-14-09, 22:25
Little story...

A troopers 60 runs dry, he opens the feed tray to load another belt. He is charged by a man with a machete. Trooper falls back on his training, draws his sidearm, and gets no less than 6 chest hits with his m9 using 9mm fmj. Trooper gets a nice machete scar on his arm to show for it, troppers buddy puts one in the guys head at 2 feet while hes on top of the trooper with the 60.

Said trooper has absolutely 0 confidence in 9mm FMG ammo.

tpd223
04-15-09, 04:35
Ring,

The difference between .223 bullets on groundhogs and handgun bullets on people will be far less dramatic. Same with field points and broad heads.

Bolt,

Awhile back in NOLA a copper hit a bad guy 9 times with 230gr Ranger-T from his G21 before he saw any effect.

I know of several high round count "failure to stop" events with .40s firing modern JHPs.

I have also seen dramatic one shot events with 9mm FMJ.

Would I carry FMJ by choice in my service pistols? Not at all, for many reasons, but not because I expect an exponential increase in "stopping power".

Your trooper story is exactly what I would expect from any service caliber handgun round fired into a (probably) crazy guy attacking with a machete.

In the old stories about the Philippine Insurrection much is made of the .38's failure, but not much is mentioned that the 30-40 Krag also had numerous failures, and things didn't really get any better when .45s showed up.


For anyone interested, read this for a historical perspective on "stopping power";

http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/shooting_to_live.pdf

IMHO, the more things change, often the more they stay the same.

sigmundsauer
04-27-09, 13:17
The fact that the Army forces me to carry 9mm hardball makes me a little less obsessive about bullets and caliber than most. Although I don't choose to carry hardball in my personal weapons, I am content with 9mm NATO, and have resolved to place my confidence in mastering the pistol and harnessing its accuracy to placing shots where they will have good effect....plus lots of ammo.

Tim

DrJSW
04-28-09, 22:27
No expert I know has ever said the FMJ pistol ammunition is ineffective. No expert I know has ever said that JHP pistol ammunition is always effective. All other factors being equal, however, JHP bullets will inflict greater tissue damage and increase the likelihood of stopping the offender more rapidly than FMJ bullets. You can't generalize any further than that.

As DocGKR points out in his "Service Caliber" sticky thread, all service caliber handgun rounds are relatively ineffective in terms of "stopping power" when compared to rifle/shotgun rounds. Using good JHP ammunition increases the probability of a good outcome, but does not guarantee it.

I am not alone among firearms trainers (and physicians) in my insistence on regarding shot placement as the pre-eminent factor in gunshot wound incapacitation.

I have been studying the phenomenon of handgun GSW's and incapacitation for quite some time now. I have hundreds of cases in my files, many of which were cases I personally conducted in my own ER/ICU's over the years. I have reached the conclusion that there are absolutely no guarantees in GSW's, but the probability of a good outcome (from the shooter's perspective) increases dramatically as the hits on the subject tend to group centrally toward the vital anatomic structures of the mediastinum (heart and great vessels), thoracic and cervical spine, and the brainstem. Hits to the chest are largely irrelevant in terms of rapid incapacitation unless the bullets penetrate/perforate the vital structures of the mediastinum and the central nervous system. Hits that may prove to be fatal 2 minutes to 2 hours later are of no value in a deadly force encounter, because if your attacker is not dead in seconds, you will probably be.

I have spent much of the last 10 years training cops, military personnel, and select civilian groups how to visualize the vital structures of the human body in 3 dimensions so they can place their rounds into these vitals with certainty and rapidity. Knowing where to shoot from any angle of presentation, and having the confidence in their firearms skills to place their bullets where they need to go, has resulted in extremely positive results for the good guys, and extremely negative outcomes for many of the bad guys.

DrJSW
www.tacticalanatomy.com