View Full Version : S&B vs. Nightforce on 7.62NATO autoloader?
I am on the list for a LaRue OSR and am trying to figure out what glass to put on it. A LaRue mount will (of course) be used. I am either going to have LaRue build mine up with an 18 inch or 20 inch barrel and will be using a Surefire suppressor.
Have not yet made up my mind on the optics. I have heard so many good things about Schmidt & Bender but the price makes me want to consider something other options. The PM2 3-12x is what I was considering. Alternatively, LaRue has a pretty reasonably priced package with the Nightforce 3.5-15x.
This rifle will be used as a 200-600 yard precision setup and is my first foray into the precision rifle realm.
I would appreciate some advice from those who have trigger time behind both optics and am open to suggestions regarding other options.
No time behind the S&Bs but I have 11 Nightforce scopes. 1-4s through 8-32s all NXS except for a benchrest. Excellent glass, very clear. Rugged as hell and reliable. Hold adjustment and a lot less money than S&B. I think that spending more money on any other scope is just throwing money away and better spent on ammo.
I know of at least two guys that are using NF on 50s without issue. I would suggest at least 5.5-22 for magnification. While it may not be needed of "real" targets it’s really nice to have to ID and for the shooting range. Another consideration would be for range estimation. The 5.5-22 ranges on 22x which you will appreciate.
I got the post card from LaRue last night advertising the OSR. Damn them, I may have to join you and get on board as I have been looking for a .308 semi as well.
TacticalIntervention
04-13-09, 12:19
Love both scopes, but for money I have not seen anyone match for value, quality and price point with Night Force. Nightforce is my final answer on this
What about Nightforce versus US Optics?
If I understand things correctly, most (if not all) of US Optics line is first-focal plane (FFP) scopes. Nightforce just came out with their own model of FFP scope, with a retail price in the neighborhood of $2300 or so. That puts it in line with most of the US Optics products.
This is the most I've ever even contemplated spending on a riflescope, so I want to do it right the first time. It doesn't help that I've yet to find a place to actually see either product in person.
It's hard to go wrong with either NF or S&B...as long as you can afford it.
I like my NF optic on my precision bolt gun a lot.
If you are thinking of ponying up the extra dough for the S&B however I'd recommend looking into the USO's as well. It's a comparible optic to the S&B from a quality, glass, etc. standpoint but the USO can be readily built custom spec'd to your requirements.
Built in the USA by a great group of guys who stand behind their product.
Anyway, it's worth a thought.
I've never owned S&B but have had 4 NightForces. Both of my precision rifles have NF's on them. I've never had any reason to consider changing them out. They are as clear as any I've ever seen. The factory supports their products. From what I understand tough as anything out there. When I started using them I did as much research as possible and tried to make an informed decision. After 4 years I'm still very satisfied.
Don't own either but have used them on guns. Can't really tell between clarity on either scope, both are extremely nice and clear. The S&B is alot more expensive. I agree with the fellow who said check out US Optics. These scopes are very nice, and rugged. They are a little weighty but when you hold one you can just tell the US Optics scopes are made for battle and precision. US Optics and NF are my picks.
Its not the magnification but the resolution of the scope. The NF is good but not the best. With the Schmidt at 15x, I can see things that you can't even see with the NF at 22x. 15x is typically more than enough for tac comps.
i read this elsewhere, can anyone else comment or elaborate on what's being discussed?
I just went through this myself I got both scopes and went to the range going back and forth for about 4 hours doing various types of shooting. When you really spend the time behind both scopes you will really see there is a CLEAR winner and it is hands down the S&B.
locking turrets
on/off being every other click
clarity
field of view
eye relief
usable red dot in day light
If you can afford it the S&B is well worth the money.
How does US Optics compare to S&B?
S&B is the clear winner across the board IMHO.
However (and don't stone me as a heretic) I have had a chance to shoot some recent models from Vortex.
They have a 1-4x and a 5-20x version that are not on their website, nor available to the public as of yet. We made some prototype 35mm mounts for them, and did shock and optic clarity testing on them.
They recently got into 'duty" type scopes, and from their willing to take end user feedback, and their desried price points, I think you will see a Luepold priced scope with S&B spec's.
*I (and KAC) have no financial interest in them at all. Nor do I have one (yet) and they have not provided or promised anything for me for free (damn :D)
I think you will see a Luepold priced scope with S&B spec's.
is such a thing really possible?
S&B is the clear winner across the board IMHO.
However (and don't stone me as a heretic) I have had a chance to shoot some recent models from Vortex.
They have a 1-4x and a 5-20x version that are not on their website, nor available to the public as of yet. We made some prototype 35mm mounts for them, and did shock and optic clarity testing on them.
They recently got into 'duty" type scopes, and from their willing to take end user feedback, and their desried price points, I think you will see a Luepold priced scope with S&B spec's.
*I (and KAC) have no financial interest in them at all. Nor do I have one (yet) and they have not provided or promised anything for me for free (damn :D)
Kevin,
I thought Vortex were made in China? They seem to be a new company but little is known about them.
American company from Ohio
Their hunting/'plinker' line is made in China, their duty scopes they are doing has Japanese glass but made in the USA.
theJanitor
04-16-09, 14:48
is such a thing really possible?
Scott from liberty Optics said the same. apparently, the Duty grade Vortex's will be worth the wait
Thank you all, great info. I will have to go with the S&B. Monty and Kevin, any suggestion as to which S&B you would recommend for a 7.62 gas gun setup?
Mo_Zam_Beek
04-24-09, 14:34
3 - 12 x 50 is my favorite, 4 - 16 x 42 is second
You should be looking at a Premiere Heritage and a NF F1 as well.
American company from Ohio
Their hunting/'plinker' line is made in China, their duty scopes they are doing has Japanese glass but made in the USA.
I see how it is, We only get credit for the cheese here. I think what Kevin meant to say was an American company near Madison, Wi. I could be mistaken but i think they are affiliated with Eagle Optics, a retail company that has been selling High end Optics for numerous years. I look forward to trying out their new line of scopes. I currently have a pair of vortex Bino's and have been extremely impressed for the quality at the price point.
Being a leupold guy.... I'm leaning towards nightforce for my next build.
On the topic of vortex, what ever came about with there $130 red dot? Is that china or US? I was going to get one to T&E but never got around to it. I'll keep an eye on their duty scopes if that is the suggestion.
Any clue of ETA on Vortex line, and what it will be called?
Thanks
1st post over here guys.....:) On the Vortex products I saw a few of them at the show. The red dot was what you would expect for a $100ish dot scope. What looked decent, but a fella would have to give them a run in the wild, was their line of spotting scopes. Good glass, great price points. I would just want to see how waterproof and tuff they are for regular use.
I'll be looking forward to seeing their duty line when it becomes available.
Thank you all, great info. I will have to go with the S&B. Monty and Kevin, any suggestion as to which S&B you would recommend for a 7.62 gas gun setup?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/USMCCampPendleton052.jpg
3-12 witht he 4-16 as my second fav.
ErikL -- dude your 100% right - my bad. So cheese and optics, Ohio is for jerky :D...
Thank you all, great info. I will have to go with the S&B. Monty and Kevin, any suggestion as to which S&B you would recommend for a 7.62 gas gun setup?
I own and shoot a S & B 3-12 x 50. Honestly, the glass in unreal. Clarity and light gathering are incredible. I can see things through my S & B before the sun comes up, no exaggeration. For my money, there is only one other glass out there that compares in terms of light gathering and clarity, and that's Swarovski. Only problem there is that Swarovski only makes hunting scopes, but thats what my primary use is.
I've been kicking around the thought of selling my S & B. My desires (not needs) have changed a bit so I figure if I can sell this one and give someone a deal, I can apply the difference toward the S & B Police Marksman.
This is the one I shoot with:
http://www.swfa.com/images/product/medium/944L9.jpg
http://www.swfa.com/images/schmidtbenderl9.jpg
See details here for this scope:
http://www.swfa.com/pc-2480-279-schmidt-bender-3-12x50-variable-hunting-30mm-riflescope.aspx
I know of at least two guys that are using NF on 50s without issue. Now you know a few more. :)
We have five .50's. 1 Robar RC50 and 4 Barretts.
Our Robar runs a NF as well as 2 Barretts. The other 2 Barretts run Leupolds.
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/IMG_08711.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/IMG_14371.jpg
TacticalIntervention
04-30-09, 11:06
Surf, thats a serious team there. Five 50's will be a nasty reception
Nf is hard to beat, if u go schmidt know why you want one. Don't let optics be your decision maker, they are about the same as long as you use the 56 nfs and 50s are not far behind.I like my sbs but at their current price they fall into the not good for the money if I am keeping it. 2.5 to 3gs.
I have owned a US Optics SN-3 3-17x, S&B PMII MTC 3-12X contract scope, and a Nightforce F1.
These observations are not for the low powered variable scopes these companies manufacture.
If you ever want to see how well a scope is manufactured, have a look through the objective lens with a flashlight and see how much dust entered the scope during the manufacturing process. The USO will have a ring of grease in the bell to catch all the dust which also catches light and reduces image quality (this is why banging them on a table will get rid of flecks in the reticle). The S&B will have some dust, but not as much as is caught in the grease of the USO. The Nightforce F1 will be completely clean.
The S&B can get to 1K with a single turn, but other than that the Nightforce beats it. The USO is good for when you want a very specific reticle and weight and optical quality don't matter.
Get the Nightforce.
I just went through this myself I got both scopes and went to the range going back and forth for about 4 hours doing various types of shooting. When you really spend the time behind both scopes you will really see there is a CLEAR winner and it is hands down the S&B.
locking turrets
on/off being every other click
clarity
field of view
eye relief
usable red dot in day light
If you can afford it the S&B is well worth the money.
I have owned a Shortdot in the past and liked it, but these features do not transfer over to the 3-12 PMII. Also, I never was a fan of the blue glass tint on the Shortdot, and mine bit the dust hard and had to be sent back to Germany for repairs. A friend also broke his Shortdot in the same way.
I have owned a US Optics SN-3 3-17x, S&B PMII MTC 3-12X contract scope, and a Nightforce F1.
These observations are not for the low powered variable scopes these companies manufacture.
If you ever want to see how well a scope is manufactured, have a look through the objective lens with a flashlight and see how much dust entered the scope during the manufacturing process. The USO will have a ring of grease in the bell to catch all the dust which also catches light and reduces image quality (this is why banging them on a table will get rid of flecks in the reticle). The S&B will have some dust, but not as much as is caught in the grease of the USO. The Nightforce F1 will be completely clean.
The S&B can get to 1K with a single turn, but other than that the Nightforce beats it. The USO is good for when you want a very specific reticle and weight and optical quality don't matter.
Get the Nightforce.
can you comment on the "resolution" comment that i quoted earlier... i'd like to understand this phenomenon better.
Resolution is the ability to see detail at distance. Think tube TV vs. HD TV. The Nightforce will seem less bright due to coatings on the lenses.
The Navy tested all scopes and the Nightforce had the highest resolution. To my understanding, the equipment used to test resolution has a laser passed through the objective and measured on the ocular side. (This is just my how my small brain absorbed the information, I may be mistaken as to the actual technique used)
That is why you will see them on the Mk13, Mk14 and the SPR. Now if they will just get on the mil/mil bandwagon, all will be well with the world.
As it sits right now, the S&B MTC is the best widespread 'issue' sniper scope in the US arsenal in my opinion (which is worth $.02). Mil/mil trumps optical quality in every way. Now that the F1 mil/mil scope is here, I feel that it is a hard scope to beat at any price point.
The Nightforce has more mounting options due to the location of the illumination knob when compared to the S&B, which is critical when adjusting for eye relief. I also find it easier to adjust magnification on the Nightforce due to the rotating ocular housing. The Nightforce also has a 5x magnification (3-15x), which provides better observation. On a .308 rifle, the turrets of the S&B will get you to around 1K with 1 turn, but the 'clicks' are finer and closer together than on the Nightforce which does the same in 2 rotations. The zero stop of the S&B is much easier to set (automatic), but lacks the adjustability of the Nightforce which can come in handy when firing suppressed vs. unsupressed.
The differences are really just splitting hairs, and the two scopes are neck and neck. You will not be dissapointed with either but in my opinion the Nightforce has a better glass and feature set, with a lower price. Which is why my MTC is going up for sale very soon.
P.S. The "MTC" scope is the one pictured on the M110 in Kevin's picture.
Also, if you wanted to save money, you could easily figure out how important a FFP reticle actually is to you. The main practicality comes from wind holds, moving target holds, and shot correction. If you can deal with either shooting on 15x or dialing your holds, the SFP Nightforce has all the other features you are looking for at several hundred dollars cheaper price.
I am already too spoiled by FFP to go back, but if you aren't shooting competitions or at things that shoot back, the SFP would be my scope of choice at half the price.
Thank you all for the great info. I think the S&B 3-12 is in my not too distant future.
You will not go wrong, great scope and a little better glass than the NF IMO.
Get the NF, it will be more than serviceable on your 1 moa gun.
Get the S&B if you have mad cash and want deliciously clear optics.
I LOVE MY SHORT DOT.
Alaskapopo
06-03-09, 02:05
I am on the list for a LaRue OSR and am trying to figure out what glass to put on it. A LaRue mount will (of course) be used. I am either going to have LaRue build mine up with an 18 inch or 20 inch barrel and will be using a Surefire suppressor.
Have not yet made up my mind on the optics. I have heard so many good things about Schmidt & Bender but the price makes me want to consider something other options. The PM2 3-12x is what I was considering. Alternatively, LaRue has a pretty reasonably priced package with the Nightforce 3.5-15x.
This rifle will be used as a 200-600 yard precision setup and is my first foray into the precision rifle realm.
I would appreciate some advice from those who have trigger time behind both optics and am open to suggestions regarding other options.
I have the 5.5-22 power NSX and I like it. The 3.5-15 would have probably have been a better choice for what I need but I still like the scope.
Pat
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Semi%20auto%20rifles/LarueSideview.jpg
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