View Full Version : Canned Heat KaBoom!!!
...forged upper and lower saved my pretty face....but I will not shoot this shit again...
Needless to say, they DO NOT stand behind their product...:mad:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y253/SACompact/KaBoom7.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y253/SACompact/KaBoom6.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y253/SACompact/KaBoom5.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y253/SACompact/KaBoom4.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y253/SACompact/KaBoom3.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y253/SACompact/KaBoom2.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y253/SACompact/KaBoom1.jpg
Mace
...forged upper and lower saved my pretty face....but I will not shoot this shit again...
Needless to say, they DO NOT stand behind their product...:mad:
27 August 2006?
I would disagree with your "needless to say" part... get the word out about their reaction.
Could you tell us about their response? Was it just a big "FU, not our problem" when you contacted them?
Edit: Glad you're okay!
Mace,
A .45 acp round of remanufactured ammo from Houston Cartridge Company blew up a Les Baer Custom pistol I had back in 2000 or 2001, it took me close to a year to get Houston Cartridge Company to pay for a new pistol.
Even though they paid for a replacement, they still never took responsiblity for the damage their round did to my pistol.
Even after the work had been done, Houston Cartridge Company stated that Les Baer was nothing more than a shade tree gunsmith and that his pistol fired out of battery, thus causing the kaboom. This was not the case, but this is how far Houston Cartride Company went in deneying that a round of their ammo caused a kaboom to my gun, and damage to my hand and face.
The moral to this story.....Don't expect them to come forward and claim responsibility....it can adversly effect their sales...thus they will deney everything to the end.
Good luck
Semper Fi,
Jeff
27 August 2006?
I would disagree with your "needless to say" part... get the word out about their reaction.
Could you tell us about their response? Was it just a big "FU, not our problem" when you contacted them?
Edit: Glad you're okay!
Disagree?
I know of 3 other dudes who had KaBooms and they all got the same reaction. The owner who I spoke to said that this "never" happened before, when in fact: I was there when the 1st one happened and was reported 2 mos before mine!
I had 2 top tier builders, very well respected in the AR gunsmith community, state that it was IN FACT the ammo.
I am trying to spread the word now. Things happen, but stand behind your product. They DON'T.
Mace
Disagree?
I know of 3 other dudes who had KaBooms and they all got the same reaction. The owner who I spoke to said that this "never" happened before, when in fact: I was there when the 1st one happened and was reported 2 mos before mine!
I had 2 top tier builders, very well respected in the AR gunsmith community, state that it was IN FACT the ammo.
I am trying to spread the word now. Things happen, but stand behind your product. They DON'T.
Mace
Before you get all preachy, you might want to include in your original post all the particulars. You know, when you bought the ammo and where. When the kB happened. When you contacted GA. What their response was. Etc.
Before you get all preachy
:confused:
Huh?
Voodoochild
12-29-06, 19:12
That's crazy man i have a few hundred rounds of their ammo left for my RRA. Needless to say I wont buy from them anymore their prices went up big time too. I have shot at least 3K rounds of their canned heat and never had a problem.
It seems like every time there is a KB with ammo. The manufacturers always try to say the rifle fired out of battery. Starting to sound like a broken record.
Disagree?
I know of 3 other dudes who had KaBooms and they all got the same reaction. The owner who I spoke to said that this "never" happened before, when in fact: I was there when the 1st one happened and was reported 2 mos before mine!
I had 2 top tier builders, very well respected in the AR gunsmith community, state that it was IN FACT the ammo.
I am trying to spread the word now. Things happen, but stand behind your product. They DON'T.
I'm not questioning your story, just the assertion that there's no need to say how GA doesn't stand behind their product, as if we all know the background of your post-kaBoom interactions with them. Your statements above are helpful towards providing us that background. Thanks.
#1: May '06 Purchased 20K rounds for me and my bros to train with
#2: June '06 My bros carbine KaBooms with the stuff in a Carbine course...
#3: GA is contacted that same week and tells my bro that if it is found that it is there ammo, they will take care of it no problem
#4: Carbine is packaged up and sent to a top notch builder, who states that the ammo casing is clearly GA's, whats left of it.
#5: July '06 Curtis of GA and the builder have gone back and forth but every call made after the first couple of phone calls is NOT returned.
#6: August '06 My carbine KaBooms using GA Canned Heat. I contact Curtis with complete details, pics of the carbine and heastamp that is CLEARLY his. I am very patient and accomodate all of his wishes to prove that it is HIS AMMO.
I send my carbine to the same respected builder, who in fact, contacted another top builder and both conclude the ammo is GA Canned Heat and was the cause of the KaBoom.
Per company policy, I called all my bros and collected all the ammo and sent it back, for a full refund of the remaining ammo.
#7: September, October '06 After many calls and debate, Curtis denies that it is his ammo, STILL. Bullshit. I told him that I just want my carbine paid for and we can go our separate ways. He initially wanted to only pay for 50%. Bullshit man...I am still being cordial, because you can get more with honey than you can with vinegar.
#8: I am fighting to get my carbine paid for and my bros, since I ordered the ammo. I ate the cost for shipping and DROS'ing a new lower. Finally, out of "goodwill, but no claim of responsibility" they paid for 90% of both our carbines.
GA = Bad business practices. They claim to sell 100K of ammo per week, but can't take care of a customers carbine because of their poor QA?
Shit breaks, no problem. If they would have taken care of it ASAP, no harm, no foul. I know of 4 carbines that KaBoomed with their ammo.
I will never do business with them again.
Mace,
Glad your ok and didn't have worse happen to you.
I stopped shooting other peoples reloads because of those types of things and will only shoot factory or the loads I make.
I had a strange mini boom shooting reloads through my Ruger P85 MKII back in the late 80's, just trying to save a few bucks. What happened at the range was while I was shooting these reloads I got a strange report, not a boom, kind of like a pop with lots of blue smoke like I was shooting black powder.
The other shooters and the RO looked and wondered what happened. I stripped and checked the Ruger and all was fine thank God! I shit canned those reloads right on the spot and went out later and bought a Dillon square deal for 9mm and started doing my own and swore to never shoot other peoples reloads period from that day on.
Good luck on trying to get what you can fixed!
Robert
I just emailed them to cancel a recently placed order; hope is hasn't shipped yet 'cause it's heading right back.
In conclusion: They did cut a check for me and my bros carbines. We each had to pay about $200 out of pocket.
They are basically (2) new carbines. As a customer, I should not have had to pay a dime. Live and learn. I hope you all have learned from my tough lesson. Also, a well built carbine will hold up fo you.
Mace
Thanks for the information Mace. I guess another source of ammo has probably disappeared in these already dry times. It's a good thing that I've been able to find a case of BH every now and then.
BTW, I thought that you were a lover of all things M1A?
BTW, I thought that you were a lover of all things M1A?
True dat! M1A is my main stick...but only a fool would not know the value of a well built AR...
What I have learned from men better than myself: Right tool, for the right job.
PS. 7.62 x 51 is SKYROCKETING IN PRICE....
Mace
PS. 7.62 x 51 is SKYROCKETING IN PRICE....
Mace
That's why I never did get an M1A despite my pestering you for advice awhile back. Maybe sometime we'll actually meet at a Tactical Response course and you can school me on the finer points of this rifle.
Glad to hear you are no worse for the wear from you CH experience.
[QUOTE][That's why I never did get an M1A/QUOTE]
:eek:
My solution: Dillon RL550B inbound!
Mace
Chris Poston
12-30-06, 08:49
Many gun shops/ individuals are getting into the comercial end of reloading ammo due to the increasing prices. As of late two of the local shops near me are selling .223 that was loaded in house as fast as they can get it out. I raised the question to one of them are they willing to pay for a 3k + AR when one of thier reloads goes Ka-boom ? I got a blank stare.
I suspect this is the reaction of many smaller reloading setups.
Stay away from reloads that are not your own. Especially RIFLE ammo, the Ka-booms are much bigger.
Damn! :eek:
I'm really disappointed to see how GA is handling these issues.
Thanks for sharing your experience, I shoot a lot of Canned Heat and I will be looking for another source of cheap brass cased ammo....
Dangit. I dont want to hear this. Glad your OK Mace. I just got hooked on canned heat earlier this year by a couple of friends who have been shooting it a lot for a year or so now. I shot about 500 rounds in a class a couple of months ago, as did a friend, with no issues. Just shot another 250 or so of it today with no issues. What bugs me though is that I still have about 1500 rounds of it and have a couple of friends with a few cases as well, and it only takes one round......as your pics show.
What bugs me most though, is hearing how they handled things. I believe that anything and everything man made can and will fail at some point. What I look for, as do you, is for a company to stand behind things if and when something does go south. Bad ju-ju based on what your saying.
This is disturbing!
I know Dinger and I have probably been through 6000-8000 rounds between the two of us (he more I) and I still have 2K left in the garage. I might just stroll down to the gun show tomorrow and ask them about these problems and how they are handling them.
I know Dinger has run this stuff for a long time without any issues. I am guessing that will stop.
C4
This is disturbing!
I might just stroll down to the gun show tomorrow and ask them about these problems and how they are handling them.
That would be PERFECT. Pm me and I will give you my name and my bro's name and ask Curtis face to face how they handled the situation:rolleyes:
I believe that anything and everything man made can and will fail at some point. What I look for, as do you, is for a company to stand behind things if and when something does go south. Bad ju-ju based on what your saying.
__________________
Exactly. If they would have just man'd up and handled it, no problem! I understand stuff fails, breaks, etc...
First reaction: "Not us!"
Mace
I hope Dinger stops. If he stops and everyone he trains with subsequently stops, maybe GA will learn a lesson.
The reason I am here reading this is because I was pointed in this direction after telling about my SW customer service hassles. The short story is after 6 weeks of staring at my 1911 and at least a dozen calls on my part, they eventually agreed to refund my money when I asked them to. They just weren't going to stand behind their product.
So how did they end up paying for about 90% of the carbines? Did they say they'd pay 90% or did it work out to that percentage when they told you a flat amount they'd pay and no more?
Glad you're safe!
I know Dinger has run this stuff for a long time without any issues. I am guessing that will stop.
C4
I've run a couple of K of it myself. I'm going to finish what I have and move on to something else.
Rmplstlskn
01-07-07, 13:42
In conclusion: They did cut a check for me and my bros carbines. We each had to pay about $200 out of pocket.
They are basically (2) new carbines. As a customer, I should not have had to pay a dime. Live and learn. I hope you all have learned from my tough lesson. Also, a well built carbine will hold up fo you.
Mace
The reconfirmation I took from this is NEVER shoot while holding a magazine or magwell. This is just asking for a mangled hand if you luck out and fire that KABOOM round that lurks out there... somewhere.
I have seen a few do this hold... even tier-2 and tier-1 shooters.
Rmpl
So how did they end up paying for about 90% of the carbines? Did they say they'd pay 90% or did it work out to that percentage when they told you a flat amount they'd pay and no more?
Glad you're safe!
I told them what it would cost to fix my gun. They in turn said that they would pay X amount. At that point, 90% was better than 89% or less....so I took it and also sent back the balance of their PO-PO ammo.
Never again!
Mace
As I said earlier in this thread, I shot around 6,000 round of .223 Canned Heat in 2005..... From the several guns that I've seen Canned Heat BLOW UP in 2006, I WILL NEVER buy or shoot that ammo again.
Just in case you need a little conviencing:
http://getoffthex.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/182106881/m/7961059942
Georgia Arms Canned Heat blows up another rifle.
Well, for those of you who have now sworn off Canned Heat, GA has made it a little easier...
At the Richmond gun show this past weekend, the price was up to $230 per 1000.
Voodoochild
01-14-07, 21:42
Well, for those of you who have now sworn off Canned Heat, GA has made it a little easier...
At the Richmond gun show this past weekend, the price was up to $230 per 1000.
That is crazy I have been thinking about trying out HSM after I finish up my last can of canned heat. Their range ammo is 198 and their Mil spec is 2 something. Anyone here ever shot HSM rounds?
I had never heard of HSM before your post. I Googled them and was shocked at the prices. $204/1K .223 and 109/1k 9mm. Just wow.
Makes me suspicious though.
I had never heard of HSM before your post. I Googled them and was shocked at the prices. $204/1K .223 and 109/1k 9mm. Just wow.
Makes me suspicious though.
Same here.
I'd like to see some experience-based testimonials before I'd even consider it.
Same here.
I'd like to see some experience-based testimonials before I'd even consider it.
I've heard good things about HSM in the ammo forum over on TOS. The have a "range ammo" price list with brass cased 55 gr ammo under $200 / 1K. It was around $170 - $180, IIRC.
They also made up a tactical load similar to the 75 gr TAP for about $350 / K. It was not quite as accurate, but it was accurate enough. Molon has a thread over there where he did an extensive review. It is offered in .223 and 5.56 spec versions.
The good news is, I don't have any GA ammo anymore. I thought I had a couple of hundred rounds, but upon further inspection it appears that what I have left is WWB ammo that I dumped into a GA can.
I knew I did this some time ago, but couldn't remember if I used the GA stuff already or the WWB. I broke open the can today and checked. I already used the GA.
WHEW!
I guess the scary thing (for me) is that you guys keep shooting it after the fact:confused:
I know money is tight for everyone...but why take the chance?
Voodoochild
01-15-07, 11:27
I had never heard of HSM before your post. I Googled them and was shocked at the prices. $204/1K .223 and 109/1k 9mm. Just wow.
Makes me suspicious though.
Yeah they are pretty good I know they make a lot of the ammo Cabela's sells and do quite a bit for agencies. Give them a shout and ask them about thee products and see what they say. Their 223 was 171 at one point in time I should have bought a bunch then but didn't. I am pretty sure they will make you a custom load if you ask them.
#6: August '06 My carbine KaBooms using GA Canned Heat. I contact Curtis with complete details, pics of the carbine and heastamp that is CLEARLY his. I am very patient and accomodate all of his wishes to prove that it is HIS AMMO.
Before I ask my question, I want to be clear that I don't doubt anything you've reported and I'm not trying to challenge you or anything else.
When you mentioned that the headstamp was clearly his, what exactly did you mean? Did Georgia Arms start using brass with their own headstamp or something?
I'm asking because all of the thousands of rounds of canned heat I've fired in the past have all been in Lake City brass. I had to be careful to keep it separate from all of the other ammo I have that comes loaded in Lake City brass (like Black Hills blue box, AE223, XM193, etc.).
For what it's worth, I quit buying and shooting their canned heat when the prices went from "reasonable" to "ridiculous" for reloads.
Robb Jensen
01-16-07, 06:32
I repaired a customers rifle that had a case failure from Georgia Arms. I suspected it was from LC brass that was probably fired in a M249.
I don't know if they compensated him for the parts I had to replace.
Here's the link to Get of the X forums where we were discussing what happened.
http://getoffthex.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/182106881/m/1861078102?r=1441034802#1441034802
I repaired a customers rifle that had a case failure from Georgia Arms. I suspected it was from LC brass that was probably fired in a M249.
Forgive my ignorance of the M249 ... but does it damage brass in some way that an AR/M16/M4 does not?
Forgive my ignorance of the M249 ... but does it damage brass in some way that an AR/M16/M4 does not?
MG's have excessive head-spacing and allows the brass to expand more so than usual. The weakens the brass and allows for KaBooms! in AR type systems.
Mace
Ah-HAH! Thank you for the information.
Is there any way to determine (visually) from a loaded round that the brass was fired from an M249 or other weapon that allows the bulging?
Ah-HAH! Thank you for the information.
Is there any way to determine (visually) from a loaded round that the brass was fired from an M249 or other weapon that allows the bulging?
Superb advice from the MAN himself!:
http://getoffthex.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/182106881/m/4581065542
Mace
Just 0.2. HSM makes good stuff. My team has shot tens of thousands of rnds of the stuff in training. They will even build loads custom for you. We box our brass up and send it back to them and they load it again for us. I think it has gotten higher in the last month or so though. (I don't pay for it, I just shoot it...)They have good QA.
Yeah they are pretty good I know they make a lot of the ammo Cabela's sells and do quite a bit for agencies. Give them a shout and ask them about thee products and see what they say. Their 223 was 171 at one point in time I should have bought a bunch then but didn't. I am pretty sure they will make you a custom load if you ask them.
I asked and didn't get a response.:confused: Although I asked in an email with a bunch of other questions and maybe she was overwhelmed.:D
Either way, I'm going to order up 400 rounds of .45 SWC and see how it does for me. If it works out, I may be done with reloading! (thank god)
Pat_Rogers
01-26-07, 06:58
All ammunition companies are subject to QC issues, and the fact that they happen so seldom is because they generally do a good job of making ammo.
At a Carbine Operators class in CA last week we had a gun issue related to a popped primer. The reason the primer popped was because the case did not have a flash hole drilled in it.
This maker was Wolf, but when the Marine Corps sent me to Chapman academy in the mid 80's. he carried in his pocket a WW (IIRC) case with the same omission- and that cost him the World Match.
During the fall is saw eight rounds of M855 that had the same problem- all military ammo at a mil class.
I have seen a number of carbines disassemble themselves as the result of ammunition issues. The companies include PMC, Main Cartridge and others.
In the fall a Fed had his MRP totaled when a Hornady 75 gr Training round (the ones with the Russian steel case) let go.
No ammo company will admit wrongdoing, even when all of the arrows are flying that way- just as you would not admit wrongdoing in a MV incident or a shooting incident.
To think otherwise is naive. It ain't gonna' happen.
(FWIW, Hornady admitted it, then they didn't admit it, but they bought him a new MRP)
Re holding on the the magwell.
Rapidly expanding gas follows the path of least resistance. This might include out of the barrel; out the magazine baseplate and through the broken upper receiver.
I have held in my paws an M4A1 that destructed (if you have attended my class you saw it in the Book of Horrors. I had a mag well grip. I still have an undamaged left hand. I have personally witnessed eight M16/M4's that went south. None had any damage to either the mag well or magazine- except for a slight bulge in the mag body and a baseplate that went south (literally).
FWIW- in my incident, almost all of the issues went downrange - to include the upper in three parts, out to 30m. One tiny frag struck me in the optical center of the dominant eye. Actually, the lens of the Oakley M Frame.
No damage to me, extremities or vision.
You assume a risk when you do this, and considering that the guns and ammo are basically known entities the risk is minimal.
Last year i supervised 566,000+ rounds of 5.56 downrange. We saw approximately 12 ammo related problems, exclusive of a lot of Fed "XM193" , a smple of which was sent back to the factory and tested out at 62,000 psi!
The guns were brand new dpms and they had "match" chambers, although marked as 5.56. There were a lot of other issues with that teams guns, all new and right from the factory...
Me- i'll take Shep Kelly's advice (and he knows more about this then anyone else in this industry) and stay away from steel cased ammo. I have seen several otherwise good running guns choke on the Hornady training ammo but run with other brass cased ammo. I have seen a lot of problems w/ Wolf in AR's.
I've also seen a lot of problems w/ brass cased Greek 5.56- and so it goes.
And it ain't gonna' get any better in your lifetime....
Pat, good post/info.
I seem to notice that there are usually only minor to no injuries when an AR KB's. Would you attribute that as a facet of the weapons design itself, or something else?
Pat_Rogers
01-26-07, 09:31
I have not seen anything other then very minor injuries with an M16/ M4 type failure.
That doesn't mean it can't/ won't happen, only that i haven't seen it.
Also have never seen the bolt or chamber fail. The bolt carrier peels back, upper receiver is sometimes damaged (often), lower receiver is bulged, baseplate blows off magazine.
The design of the gun. Yeah, that may be a useful byproduct...
I saw one really bad Ar15 failure during a NRA service rifle match. The gun that blew was shooting 80 grain sierras at 600 yards with a heavy load of varget. The shooter wasn't really sure what happened, but suspected he had some trace pistol powder in that charge... who knows.
I was actually watching the line when the gun blew. The shooter had two minor injuries, worse being a cut on right cheek where part of the charging handle hit him. The other was where he caught a couple of framents of stuff on his trigger finger from the top down.
The gun was trashed, and his shooting mat had a hole in it. The magazine acted like a vent and shot most of the flying stuff down. We only found half of the extractor, not really sure where it went.
I had a round let go on me, it was some of the surplus guat that has been floating around. The case head split, destroyed a magazine, and the case stuck on the bolt, but everything else in my gun measured fine and that gun runs very well (a bcm upper).
I spearheaded two group buys of Georgia Arms 55gr FMJ canned heat last year (one in January and the second in April). Those orders were 15,500 and 21,000 rounds respectively. That's not a lot by some standards, but that's how much we ordered.
I've personally fired more than 3000 rounds of it without any problems except a weird degradation in accuracy on the third can (from the second order in April). The first 2000 rounds shot to the same point of aim as XM193 at 50 yards, and shot tighter groups and AE223. That third can shot groups about twice the size of anything I'd shot during the year.
I wish I had chrono'd some of it both before and after I saw the difference, but it was "just blastin' ammo." I wonder if erratic powder charges played a role in what I've experienced (which would be a likely culprit in the kabooms! too).
In any event, I don't know how much of the rest was fired by the others, but when I asked, no one had experienced anything unusual. Or at least, nothing was odd enough that they remembered it.
I have a can with about 1000 rounds in it sitting in my garage. I'm not sure whether I'll shoot it or not.
az_gun_nut
01-26-07, 17:23
Looks like an out of battery detonation to me? What's the bolt and carrier look like, can you post a pic?
Shooting guns and being around guns is dangerous business... I don't sweat KaBooms.. I just make sure I'm prepared for them every time I launch bullets downrange and sleep well.
If My AR wll shoot it... I will shoot it...;) The market does not give me many good choices these days...
The Kingfish
01-28-07, 18:25
Sorry about you're troubles and thanks for posting this.
I was just checking ammo prices last night (01-27) and had decided to try 1k of this from GA.
Guess I'll go back and do some more searching.
Hello, I am one of the guys at Georgia Arms; we manufacture a long list of ammunition choices including a product called “Canned Heat”. I believe most of you read a story about our 223 ammo destroying two AR’s and how we failed to stand behind our product. Even thought I’m not Paul Harvey, I would like to tell you the “rest of the story”. It was reported that two kabooms occurred last year one in June of 2006 and another in August of 2006 both from the same batch of ammo. What you did not hear was that I called tagged 50 rounds of ammo back from the first customer and then 10,000 rounds back from his shooting partner and that BOTH batches of ammo were mixed with ammo that we did not manufacture. This was after the customer who had the second kaboom assured me that he EXCLUSIVELY used Georgia Arms Canned Heat for his training class, no possible chance it could be anything else. Needless to say when we started going through what we got back and found 23 rounds including factory Federal, factory Winchester and some reloads I could not identify other than they were not mine, (wrong bullet, wrong powder charge, wrong headspace), I was not overwhelmed with confidence in what the customer was telling me. As I explained the situation to him and indicated that I saw nothing wrong with my ammo and I believed he had a problem with someone else’s ammo he became very upset and said the ammo had to be mine because the headstamp on the case that destroyed his carbine was a WCC. WHAT? Does that make sense to you? Is Georgia Arms the only people who can load WCC cases? He also reported to you that the builder of the carbines positively identified the casings in the guns as ours. That is simply not true. Consider this; all that was left was two ruined 223 casings, no bullet, no powder, no primer, simply empty cases. Are we to suppose that someone has the power to look into their crystal ball and determine who loaded it last? The bottom line is no conclusion could be drawn from the casings. So, how did I decide the rounds were not ours? I felt the best approach was to determine what could have caused the problems we saw. Let me first explain the type of failure that occurred. A typical kaboom is nothing more than a case failure. The casing has a defect; it is too brittle, too thin or has an inclusion in the webb or wall. A case failure of this type at normal pressure destroys a magazine but very little else. These types of failures happen every so often and can not be prevented, that’s why we wear safety glasses. The two kabooms experienced here were NOT of that type. Those of you who that saw the pictures will remember, the whole receiver was destroyed, the bolt was split from end to end the bolt carrier destroyed etc. I talked with Reed Knight at Knights Armament Corp as he probably has as much knowledge and experience with the AR system as anyone alive today since Stoner passed away. Reed indicated that to do that type of damage to a quality gun, pressures above 90,000 psi were present in the firings. This is about twice what normal pressure would be. He narrowed the reasons down to two; barrel obstruction or the wrong powder in the case. I examined the barrels and saw no evidence of an obstruction. I believe these two incidents were caused by someone loading the wrong speed powder in the casing. Normal speed powder used in the 223 (748, H335, WC844, smp 735 etc.) would run out of case capacity long before you could generate this type of pressure. However a 25 grain charge of a pistol speed powder could do this damage (231, HP-38, Titegroup, Bullseye, etc). So how do I know that we did not load the wrong powder? To answer that, let me give you a brief overview of how we assemble 223 ammo. We have two arsenal style machines that are in-line presses with 21 stations to handle assembly and 12 different quality control checks during the assembly process. Each machine has a powder hopper that holds 5 lbs of powder. The hopper is run down to the 1lb level and then 4 lbs of powder is added back to the fill line. 4 lbs of smp 735 will load over 1000 rounds of 223 ball ammo. Simple logic dictates that if we poured the wrong speed powder into the hopper, we would have produced over 1000 high pressures rounds not 2 out of 15,000. Also we have at this time completed a teardown of over 100 rounds of the 10,000 we recalled from these customers with all powder charges being within specifications. Also after culling out the rounds that we identified as not being ours, (remember we have the bullet, powder, primer and headspace to examine on these loaded rounds) all the remaining rounds in theses two lots were fired with no problems. The bottom line; I am 100% certain we did not put the wrong powder in these two cases. So, how does Georgia Arms stand behind their products? We paid for repairing the two guns anyway just to prevent anyone from having a basis to run down our reputation. I guess you can see how well that worked out for us. If I may offer some advice from an old man who has been shooting for over 40 years now. When you are shooting ammunition from several sources, keep them separate!! Shooting with a mixture of ammo in your magazine is about the same as buying your gas from three different gas stations, 1/3 of a tank from each, if you end up with water in your tank whom will you blame? For those of you who took the time to read this whole post, I appreciate your patience, for those of you who buy ammo from us I appreciate you patronage and as Paul Harvey would say “and now you know the rest of the story”! I welcome any question or comments. Till next time I remain, magnum1
magnum1, thank you for posting that information.
Joe Mamma
...The market does not give me many good choices these days...
You ain't lyin'!
Mace, brother, who the hell convinced you that you have a "pretty face"?:eek: :p For real, though, I'm glad evrything turned up positive, if not fair.
DW
magnum1
:rolleyes:
I have names and dates of atleast 6 carbines that have blown up because of GA Canned Heat. I have UNDENIABLE PROOF that it was YOUR AMMO. YOUR AMMO was in the chamber regardless of what other amo you received. I have 2 well known builders that frequent this forum diagnose that it was the ammo.
Would you like names and dates of other shooters carbines that went KaBoom with GA Canned Heat? I would be more than happy to provide them.
YOU DO NOT stand behind your product and give excuses (standard SOP) whenever something happens.
Mace
Robb Jensen
03-05-07, 05:55
Last year I repaired one of the rifles (an RRA) that was damaged by Canned Heat ammo. Luckily it wasn't completely catastrosphic. What it did require was a new bolt, extractor, extractor pin, firing pin, & cam pin. IIRC it was a Lake City case and not WCC. I also believe that there's a high probability that the casing had been previously fired in a beltfed M249.
Mace, if you have undeniable proof that it was my round in your chamber, why did you not show it to me when we were going through these issues? Please, show me the proof. I have talked with Jason, he admitted he could not determine who had loaded the case that was in the chamber, how could he? Magnum1
Sorry, I missed your last line, I am agreeing with your experts that the ammo was the cause of the failure, it just wasn't my ammo. If you read my post I explained why.
it just wasn't my ammo.
So, you are saying that of the 6 carbines that have KaBoom'd (I know of 6 for a FACT)...all shooters claiming to use YOUR ammo...none of it was YOURs?
Bottom line is this: I had 90% of my carbine paid for. I will NEVER shoot this stuff again. I know of other shooters you have dealt with that have been told to pound sand when the issue was brought up with you.
I will pm you links YOU can answer personally.
Mace
Hmmpph...
There have been KaBoom's in more than (1) caliber..:eek:
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=317196
http://getoffthex.com/eve/forums?a=search&reqWords=Canned+Heat
You have your work cut out. Additionally, I guess EVERYONE else is wrong:rolleyes:
Denial = A river in Egypt....
Mace
What no diversionary comeback to reloading 5.56 brass used in SAW's that blows AR’s?
:rolleyes:
Street Survival
12-30-07, 19:52
Sorry to hear about your problems, Thank God you weren't hurt. Like I said previously, I have purchased thosands of rounds without incident. I have always been treated fairly by their customer service. Maybe you should try calling them again and speaking to someone else that is more sympathic to your situation. Just a thought, I'm not trying to put salt on the wound.
Good luck!!!
I have been trying to warn people about their crappy ammo for a few years now, I have mentioned it in several post and warned a guy at the SC Pat Rogers class about that stuff. I had a 168 grain "Match" .308 blow a primer so bad it blowed bits of primer into my face from out around the back of the bolt and messed up my bolt. Out of a batch of 500, I had 10 or so do that, one got stuck in the chamber and I had a hell of a time getting the bolt to unlock in a bolt action. The one that got me in the face, I picked about 10 pieces of metal from around where I had my glasses on. I called them about it and talk to them at a gun show,even showed them the case with the blown out primer and their attitude was like So? F*ck Ga Arms! Be very careful shooting their ammo, if you do wear your eye protection. That is the only reason I still have my sight today.
That just sucks
Glad to hear you were not hurt.
Re-posted per USMC03's request...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/Triggerman/KaBoom1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/Triggerman/KaBoom2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/Triggerman/KaBoom5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/Triggerman/KaBoom6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/Triggerman/KaBoom7.jpg
Mace
I have a few small samples of Canned Heat that I did some measurements on, and needless to say I found some interesting issues, including things like a split neck and OAL out of spec. I will post the findings when I get time.
My one experience with .223 Canned Heat was seeing soccer ball size groups at 50 yards. Pure crap. I never finished that can and a friend took it.
I've had 10mm Shear Power Plus "duds" (the first of which was when I pressed on a whitetail buck's shoulder and got a click ;) and some from the same bag that erupted in a massive fireball of muzzle flash. At the next local show I spoke to a guy at their table who shrugged and said, "I can't imagine how that could happen." I've also had good groups from their hunting ammo loads but it's not worth the risk to my rifles IMO.
AMF.
I also had a KB with their ammo. I purchased 3,000 rds and had the KB within the first 200-300 rds. It actually bent the extractor on my bolt. No other damage to the gun. When I contacted GA they ofcourse said the gun fired out of battery. However their customer service for me was very good. They made arrangements for UPS to pick up the remainder of the ammo at my house so I did not have to pay shipping or even go through the hassle of taking it to get it shipped. They also offered to replace the bolt. All that being said, I won't buy their ammo again for fear of another KB.
RogerinTPA
08-04-09, 23:06
That company has had bad juju for years. There CS Dept. blaming everything but their product. I had a chance to buy some a couple of years ago, but after reading many threads like this, I decided I liked my weapons more, than saving a few bucks of "Iffy" brass ammo by a company who won't stand by their product.
Thomas M-4
08-04-09, 23:12
[QUOTE=mjpsyr;425804]I also had a KB with their ammo. I purchased 3,000 rds and had the KB within the first 200-300 rds. It actually bent the extractor on my bolt. No other damage to the gun. When I contacted GA they ofcourse said the gun fired out of battery.
Maybe some one can tell them a AR-15 can not fire out of battery.
Not to totally dump on GA Amrs as I am in Decatur, GA. I had an issue with their match .308 Win 168gr ammo. I was new to the M1A at the time, but kept getting misaligned bullets as they fed into the chamber of the rifle. I was a newb and thought it was something I was doing wrong. I then had a momemt of inspiration and decided to check the bullet seating or neck tension.
All I had to do with about 25% of the rounds was push slightly and the bullet moved. We are talking no force at all. There was insufficient neck tension to hold the bullet in place. That could have caused a serious issue if the round moved back into the case. Needless to say I brought in the rest of the 250 round can and was told I had shot too much and they would not exchange it for a new can even though I could move the bullets in front of them. I could not believe it. I had shot about 150 of the 250 rounds. It just took me that long to figure it out since I was new to the M1A. I was kind of angry since the match rounds were so expensive.
No your stuck with it was their attitude. I could not understand since I was at a gun show with the bad ammo. I made an effort to show them in private away from other customers as to not make a scene and they stuck me with it. I had shot too much of the ammo to get a refund. I did not expect a refund, only a new can of ammo. My loss, but I will never use any of their ammo ever again. You just don't do folks like that and I went out of my way to be cool about the situation. I mean I ate the $8 entrance fee to the show just to have them inspect the ammo. You think they would have wanted to check the lot numbers as it is obvious to even the most inexperienced reloader that the neck tension was insufficient. I could have been seriously injured...
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