.22 conversion for training

[QuietShootr]

If anyone cares: I just picked up a CMMG .22 conversion bolt and some BDM magazines (the full-profile ones) in the hopes of getting some less expensive M4 training time. I know it isn't the SAME as shooting full 5.56, but for running drills at under 100, I have high hopes for it.

Good news: The kit ran like a sewing machine in my Mk18/10.3 using CCI Mini-Mags. 400 rounds downrange with no malfunctions of any kind and 'respectable' accuracy (I can make 25 yd headshots with it no problem, on the walk). I didn't bench it, because I didn't buy it for that.

I lubed it generously with CLP before firing the first shot, and I plan on treating it like my 5.56s: WET.

So far, so good. I'll check back in when I've had more time to wring it out.

[Shihan]

With the .22's they dont always need to be run wet like a regular AR as it will get nasty and muck things up.

[MisterWilson]

I once had a Ceiner kit and I later sold it. I just didn't feel that it was any more worthwhile (from a informal training perspective) than dryfire practice or maybe shooting a 10/22.

Now in a pistol platform however, I feel that the "bang for buck" ratio is much higher. I use my AA Glock conversion much more than I ever did they Ceiner.

[Bimmer]

With the .22's they dont always need to be run wet like a regular AR as it will get nasty and muck things up.

+1

The only moving parts are the bolt and the firing pin, and covering the whole kit in oil just makes it filthy.

I just put a bit of oil or grease where the bolt rides the rails and then let a drop of oil run down the firing pin channel. Done.

Bimmer

[rob_s]

One of the guys that shoots our matches with a centerfire AR runs a rimfire in our drills nights. I've found it very interesting to watch him over the last year or so and see where he appears to be improving and how I think the .22 plays into that.

One of the biggest issues I've seen with him is that his hammers and triples appear to suffer. Our scoring requires at least two shots on target and most people throw three to be sure (a failure to neutralize is 30 seconds, and it only takes maybe a second to throw that extra shot). I find that in watching him his multiple-shot-strings are where he needs the most work, and I think that the rimfire is actually hurting him in this regard.

I still want a rimfire upper, but IMHO you need to limit how you use it to marksmanship drills and not use it for manipulation/reload practice or hammer/triples.

[austinN4]

The only moving parts are the bolt and the firing pin, and covering the whole kit in oil just makes it filthy. I just put a bit of oil or grease where the bolt rides the rails and then let a drop of oil run down the firing pin channel. Done.
I totally agree. After cleaning, I put a very thin coat of Slide Glide on the contact areas of the bolt and rails of my CMMG conversion, then I put a very thin coat of gun oil everywhere else. Runs great (2,300 rounds with no failures to feed fire or extract, except for one dud round) and doesn't get that dirty with Federal #750 bulk pack. I even stopped cleaning it after every session as it wasn't very dirty.

[Dave L.]

If anyone cares: I just picked up a CMMG .22 conversion bolt and some BDM magazines (the full-profile ones) in the hopes of getting some less expensive M4 training time. I know it isn't the SAME as shooting full 5.56, but for running drills at under 100, I have high hopes for it.

Good news: The kit ran like a sewing machine in my Mk18/10.3 using CCI Mini-Mags. 400 rounds downrange with no malfunctions of any kind and 'respectable' accuracy (I can make 25 yd headshots with it no problem, on the walk). I didn't bench it, because I didn't buy it for that.

I lubed it generously with CLP before firing the first shot, and I plan on treating it like my 5.56s: WET.

So far, so good. I'll check back in when I've had more time to wring it out.

I looked at the CMMG website; are BDM mags supplied with them? I ask because I also looked on Brownells and neither state the type of mag supplied with the kit.

[austinN4]

I looked at the CMMG website; are BDM mags supplied with them? I ask because I also looked on Brownells and neither state the type of mag supplied with the kit.
I ordered my kit directly from CMMG last year. It came with one BDM mag at $199 and I also order a 3-pack of additional BDM mags for $100.

I see now on CMMG's web site that they come with CMMG mags. I am not sure if they are rebranded BDG or what, but they sure are less ($60 for 3) than what I paid for the BDM.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

One of the guys that shoots our matches with a centerfire AR runs a rimfire in our drills nights. I've found it very interesting to watch him over the last year or so and see where he appears to be improving and how I think the .22 plays into that.

One of the biggest issues I've seen with him is that his hammers and triples appear to suffer. Our scoring requires at least two shots on target and most people throw three to be sure (a failure to neutralize is 30 seconds, and it only takes maybe a second to throw that extra shot). I find that in watching him his multiple-shot-strings are where he needs the most work, and I think that the rimfire is actually hurting him in this regard.

I still want a rimfire upper, but IMHO you need to limit how you use it to marksmanship drills and not use it for manipulation/reload practice or hammer/triples.

Is he just not shooting all three? I would think that you'd be more likely to bang out the shots? It will teach you not to run the mag dry ;)

With ammo as expensive and scarce as it is it, it would be cool if there was a 12guage 22lr conversion kit of some sort. By fun to run some indoor or reduced range "66" (3x22lr) three gun.
I just got one, but had one a few years ago when I had my 10+ pound high-power rifle. What a hoot to shoot, and let people aclimate themselves to the gun.

[rob_s]

Is he just not shooting all three? I would think that you'd be more likely to bang out the shots? It will teach you not to run the mag dry ;)


No, he's just not improving his hammer split times at all with his full power 5.56 loads because he's getting used to shooting hammers with no recoil.

[militarymoron]

No, he's just not improving his hammer split times at all with his full power 5.56 loads because he's getting used to shooting hammers with no recoil.

i find that funny. whenever someone asks about which muzzle brake reduces muzzle flip/recoil, someone will always chime in saying that .223 doesn't have any recoil worth reducing.

[rob_s]

FWIW, I still think most people's 5.56 recoil problems are related to stance and technique, and a brake still wouldn't help those with issues in that department. Very few of our top-level shooters are running with a brake, and the millisecond that it may save you at our events have never made the difference between 1st and 2nd place.

But, a .22 AR literally just about doesn't recoil at all, which makes the dynamic of finding your sights and getting them back on target a whole lot different than with a 5.56, which is what I am cautioning others about based on what I've been observing.

[militarymoron]

FWIW, I still think most people's 5.56 recoil problems are related to stance and technique, and a brake still wouldn't help those with issues in that department.

that's absolutely true, in my case at least. but what i found the .22LR useful for is to identify what part of my technique is contributing to movement OTHER than recoil. if i'm hitting all over the target with a .22LR, it's not because of recoil. i could be flinching, jerking the trigger, not waiting till my sight is on target etc.
when i shoot my .22LR upper, i use the same stance, hold, grip pressure etc as i do with the 5.56 upper - i try not to 'cheat' because of the lack of recoil, which i found myself doing in the past.
i've found that working on my basics with the .22LR improves my shooting with the 5.56, when shooting in the same session. the only thing different is the addition of recoil management.

[rob_s]

that's absolutely true, in my case at least. but what i found the .22LR useful for is to identify what part of my technique is contributing to movement OTHER than recoil. if i'm hitting all over the target with a .22LR, it's not because of recoil. i could be flinching, jerking the trigger, not waiting till my sight is on target etc.
when i shoot my .22LR upper, i use the same stance, hold, grip pressure etc as i do with the 5.56 upper - i try not to 'cheat' because of the lack of recoil, which i found myself doing in the past.
i've found that working on my basics with the .22LR improves my shooting with the 5.56, when shooting in the same session. the only thing different is the addition of recoil management.


Agree 100%. The value of the .22, to me, is isolating the basics of marksmanship.

[Bimmer]

Agree 100%. The value of the .22, to me, is isolating the basics of marksmanship.

... and doing it at 1/10th the cost of 5.56.

For me, the value is going to the range twice as much for a fifth of the cost. If nothing else, general familiarity with my weapon is a good, good thing.

Bimmer

[rob_s]

349110general familiarity with my weapon is a good, good thing.


I don't mean to keep belaboring this point, but the issue for me is that you can get bad familiarity.

[gringop]

I got my CMMG conversion kit about 2 months ago. I find that if I shoot at least 10-20 rounds of full power 223 after a session of .22 practice, it keeps me aware of the recoil/grip/sight picture difference between the 2 calibers. It also keeps seems to keep the barrel and gas tube cleaned out.

I try to keep the mutiple shot drills to a minumum when using the kit. It's a lot more effective training for single shot drills.

Gringop

[Bimmer]

I don't mean to keep belaboring this point, but the issue for me is that you can get bad familiarity.

Yes, you're right, and I know it.

I'm just saying that shooting .22lr is a really cheap and easy way to build very basic familarity. I'm new to the AR, and I'm simply getting used to the trigger, sight picture, controls, cheek weld, etc.

It's also a great way to introduce others to the platform. I let a new-to-guns guy shoot .22s through my AR last time I was out, and he had a blast. The blast and recoil of 5.56 is intimidating to people who have never shot before. At some point my little girl will use this, too.

Bimmer

[QuietShootr]

I don't mean to keep belaboring this point, but the issue for me is that you can get bad familiarity.

I think you're right to an extent, but - I've noticed that when I shoot a lot of .22 pistol, my .45 shooting improves, even though I'm not doing the same manipulations. I'm contemplating buying a Kimber .22 so it IS the same.

I'm trying to work out how to use the AR kit so that it won't screw up my technique. I think the trick will be to hold hard the same way I do with 5.56, and not get lazy because of the lack of recoil.

[supersix4]

I use the CMMG AR conversion with BD mags and the Kimber 22 conversion for my 1911. I use them to keep the fundamentals strong. I usually shoot some 45 and 223 somewhere in the training session. I think if them as my not so dry, dry fire drills.

[ballistic]

I just ordered the CMMG conversion for my AR and a couple of extra BD mags. I have a Carbine class coming up May 1 and think the kit will provide some cheap training for basic drills and reinforce marksmanship fundamentals.

[dookie1481]

I just ordered the CMMG conversion for my AR and a couple of extra BD mags. I have a Carbine class coming up May 1 and think the kit will provide some cheap training for basic drills and reinforce marksmanship fundamentals.

Same here, except I got the new CMMG mags.

Rob, since you seem to have strong feelings about this, what training issues would you recommend the .22 be best utilized for?

Jay

[rob_s]

when I had my .22, the things I used it for were:
- new shooter famiiarity and comfort (should be an obvious one)
- marksmanship in various positions, slowfire
- getting into and out of positions, again slowfire

Marksmanship to me meant basically position, sight picture, and trigger control. I used it to figure out things like trigger reset and takeup, manipulating the safety, etc.

as I said above, where I think the limits surface when shooting hammer, triples, NSRs, etc.

[OldNavyGuy]

all i see is just another Ciener drop in, here is the real thing, comes with one Black Dog mag

http://www.tacticalsol.com/store/pc/catalog/M4%20L2.jpg


ooooooooh!!!! did i mention it comes from TacSol

http://www.tacticalsol.com/

[Bimmer]

Same here, except I got the new CMMG mags.



Aren't these just BDM mags, in different colors?

[QuietShootr]

all i see is just another Ciener drop in, here is the real thing, comes with one Black Dog mag

http://www.tacticalsol.com/store/pc/catalog/M4%20L2.jpg


ooooooooh!!!! did i mention it comes from TacSol

http://www.tacticalsol.com/

I have a Tactical Solutions pistol (the 4" Ruger upper) that is a goddamn laser gun.