View Full Version : recoil spring life span?
at 1500 rds -sping died[greased with moly] and end of buffer hit and marks on the bolt carrier !so whats life of a recoil spring ?
at 1500 rds -sping died[greased with moly] and end of buffer hit and marks on the bolt carrier !so whats life of a recoil spring ?
Depends on the quality of the spring. A standard $5 USGI spring will of course work forever. If the spring does not have enough tension to strip a round off of a full 30rd mag then it is spent.
A good test is to lock the bolt back, insert a 30rd mag and hit the release. Did it strip a round off and properly seat into the chamber? If so, then it is stil good.
I personally do not want to wait to find out when the spring goes down, so I typically change out all the extractor springs and buffer springs at around 3-4K. I also use ISMI CS springs. These springs have a MUCH better life than a standard spring and will noticeably alter felt recoil.
C4
ISMI shot peened, stress relieved, heat treated buffer spring
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/ISMI/DSC02282.JPG
SS spring after about 8k and a new SS spring and a new ISMI spring
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/ISMI/Diff%20in%20springs.JPG
well went to a class-3 dealer show the spring -showed a new one [g.i] opps almost 2.75 shorter .said i shot many more in a 20'' barrel and never seen this happen -the buffer hits the rear of the tube and marks the buffer nylon part !he send the bolt is working faster so more things will work harder than a 20'' so an aac -ss buffer kit this is the best way to fix all the troubles you have ,anyboby have the same with recoil spring/buffer like bolt/buffer slamming and groups going wild ??
ar_mcadams
01-04-07, 00:00
so is a CMT spring a good quality one? Who is USGI?
Who is USGI?
:D
Sorry.....I had to.
so is a CMT spring a good quality one? Who is USGI?
The CMT springs are your standard $5 dollar SS spring. They are what the Military would use. Does that mean it is a quality spring? Yes it does. Is it the best choice out there? No it isn't.
C4
Submariner
01-04-07, 09:21
I don't have my data with me, but i believe the M4 is 10 1/16 to 11 1/4.
M16 is 11 3/4 to 13 1/2.
If it is shorter than the minimum length (in inches), it needs to be replaced. If it's getting close, it probably needs to be replaced. If the minimum were not good enough, it would not be the minimum.;)
[This was posted in the tacked extractor/O-ring thread.]
ETA: Grant-How long is the spring with 8K on it which is posted above?
ar_mcadams
01-04-07, 09:55
I have never heard of ISMI before.
I have never heard of ISMI before.
Most have not. They make springs for 1911's, Glock's, mag spring for just about everything. They use the highest grade CS available and then shot peen, stress relieve, heat treat and gurantee their springs for one year!
They are one of the best kept secrets in the industry and I use their products on just about every weapon I own (1911, Glock, AR).
C4
The rule of thumb i have heard (not sure if it's relevant or not) is once a recoil spring loses two coils in stack height, it ought to be replaced. The only way to verify this is to have a 2nd good spring to compare it to.
Anyone else ever heard this?
Most have not. They make springs for 1911's, Glock's, mag spring for just about everything. They use the highest grade CS available and then shot peen, stress relieve, heat treat and gurantee their springs for one year!
They are one of the best kept secrets in the industry and I use their products on just about every weapon I own (1911, Glock, AR).
C4
Not sure if David Tubbs is selling ISMI springs but I first learned of CS springs from his website and his company. He's been singing the praises of CS for several years now, both recoil, bolt action firing pin, mag springs, trigger and hammer springs, you name it.
Submariner
01-04-07, 12:13
Not sure if David Tubbs is selling ISMI springs but I first learned of CS springs from his website and his company. He's been singing the praises of CS for several years now, both recoil, bolt action firing pin, mag springs, trigger and hammer springs, you name it.
G. David Tubbs wears yellow glasses.:cool: Don't know if the springs on his web site are made by a different manufacturer, though.
The rule of thumb i have heard (not sure if it's relevant or not) is once a recoil spring loses two coils in stack height, it ought to be replaced. The only way to verify this is to have a 2nd good spring to compare it to.
Anyone else ever heard this?
Better than a Rule of Thumb.
Action spring............................................Free length of spring shall be between 11-3/4 and 13-1/2 inches (29.84
and 34.29 cm) M16A2 ONLY and 10-1/16 and 11-1/4 inches (25.56 and 28.58 cm) M4/M4A1 ONLY.
ARMY TM 9-1005-319-23&P p.3-102 Change 4
ETA: Grant-On the 8K spring above, was it functioning or not at that length?
G. David Tubbs wears yellow glasses.:cool: Don't know if the springs on his web site are made by a different manufacturer, though.
Yes. God help us if we acknowledge the contribution of a yellow glass shooter.;)
G. David Tubbs wears yellow glasses.:cool: Don't know if the springs on his web site are made by a different manufacturer, though.
Tubbs ONLY uses ISMI springs.
C4
Submariner
01-04-07, 12:41
Tubbs ONLY uses ISMI springs.
C4
Even on his 300 plus Magazines? :D
G. David Tubbs wears yellow glasses.:cool: Don't know if the springs on his web site are made by a different manufacturer, though.
Better than a Rule of Thumb.
Action spring............................................Free length of spring shall be between 11-3/4 and 13-1/2 inches (29.84
and 34.29 cm) M16A2 ONLY and 10-1/16 and 11-1/4 inches (25.56 and 28.58 cm) M4/M4A1 ONLY.
ARMY TM 9-1005-319-23&P p.3-102 Change 4
ETA: Grant-On the 8K spring above, was it functioning or not at that length?
No. The spring would not allow the bolt to strip a round off of a 30rd mag.
C4
Submariner
01-04-07, 12:54
No. The spring would not allow the bolt to strip a round off of a 30rd mag.
Any idea how long it was? Or how long either of the others are so we have some idea of it's length to know if it was out of spec low? Did you withdraw it from service the first time it failed or did you try using it for a while as its function deteriorated?
Better than a Rule of Thumb.
Action spring............................................Free length of spring shall be between 11-3/4 and 13-1/2 inches (29.84
and 34.29 cm) M16A2 ONLY and 10-1/16 and 11-1/4 inches (25.56 and 28.58 cm) M4/M4A1 ONLY.
ARMY TM 9-1005-319-23&P p.3-102 Change 4
Thanks. This ought to be added as a sticky at the top of the page for future reference.
Any idea how long it was? Or how long either of the others are so we have some idea of it's length to know if it was out of spec low? Did you withdraw it from service the first time it failed or did you try using it for a while as its function deteriorated?
A normal ISMI Carbine spring is 11 and change (varies). The carbine spring I pulled out was about 2.5-3 inches shorter than it.
When the problem first reared its ugly head, I believed it was mag related. So I continued to use it for some time after that.
This was more than a year ago and a that time, no one was really ever talking about Springs and proper maintence. This is why I have kind taken it on and want to educate people about spring life.
C4
Submariner
01-04-07, 13:34
A normal ISMI Carbine spring is 11 and change (varies). The carbine spring I pulled out was about 2.5-3 inches shorter than it.
When the problem first reared its ugly head, I believed it was mag related. So I continued to use it for some time after that.
This was more than a year ago and a that time, no one was really ever talking about Springs and proper maintence. This is why I have kind taken it on and want to educate people about spring life.
C4
Customers make better decisions with proper education.
Are ISMI springs Chrome-silicon (Valve) A877 or Chrome-silicon (Commercial) A401?
So, 8000 rounds on a typical USGI spring is probably too much. Since this one was probably 9 inches and change, would you probably have changed it out earlier, at say, 10 1/4 inches if that spec had been in your data bank?
Aubrey posted this elsewhere:
Ok Paul, you asked for it. An enginerd's spin on gun springs:
Besides the obvious design criteria like spring rate, appropriate material and process selection are important components to ensure that springs remain functional and prevent relaxation or fatigue.
You will note from the source material cited below that not all spring wire alloys are the same. “Commercial” grade spring wire may be adequate for some applications, but it does not have the same properties that “valve” grade exhibits. The processing necessary and quality control necessary to achieve the consistent surface finish necessary for high-fatigue applications certainly adds to cost. Additional processing like shot peening and stress relief will also provide improved properties at additional cost.
Many of the firearms springs that we are concerned with are not exposed to high temperatures, so better-quality music wire springs may be quite appropriate. Depending upon where in the gun’s mechanism a spring resides and the conditions it is exposed to due to the combustion process or environment (e.g., saltwater), corrosion resistance may or may not be of particular concern. Shooters who swim with their carbines may have different material requirements than those who never leave the high desert.
From the Century Spring Technical FAQ
http://www.centuryspring.com/pdfs/techfaqs.pdf
What material is best for high temperature applications?
As temperature resistance increases, the material and processing cost typically increases significantly. Therefore, it is usually wise to select a material that provides resistance for the intended temperature range with minimal excess capability. The table below lists a variety of spring materials and their maximum service temperatures.
Wire Type / Max Temp.
Music Wire 250°F
Hard Drawn Carbon 250°F
Oil Tempered Carbon 300°F
Chrome Vanadium 425°F
Chrome silicon 475°F
302 Stainless 500°F
17-7 PH 600°F
NiCr A286 950°F
Inconel 600 700°F
Inconel X750 1100°F
Most spring materials are defined in ASTM specifications. …A list of popular material types and the corresponding ASTM specification is given below.
Wire Type / ASTM Spec
Oil Tempered Carbon (Commercial) A229
Oil Tempered Carbon (Valve) A230
Chrome-silicon (Commercial) A401
Chrome-silicon (Valve) A877
Chrome-Vanadium (Commercial) A231
Chrome-Vanadium (Valve) A232
Hard Drawn Carbon A227, A764
High Tensile Hard Drawn Carbon A679
Music Wire A228
Stainless Steel A313
Fatigue Applications:
Since spring wire is primarily subjected to torsional stresses, maximum stress levels occur at the wire surface. As a result, material surface defects (i.e. seams, laps, pits, etc.) can dramatically reduce a spring’s fatigue life. Knowing this, wire manufacturers have developed surface preparation methods to restrict the size of wire surface defects as it leaves the mill. Wire produced with these methods is rated for fatigue applications and is often referred to as “valve spring quality”. Since these methods often involve costly processes, fatigue-rated spring wire is often significantly more expensive than its commercial grade counterpart. The two most popular materials for fatigue applications today are Music Wire (ASTM A228) and Chrome-silicon Valve Spring Quality (ASTM A877). At wire sizes below approximately 0.080" (2.0 mm), Music Wire offers higher tensile strength; however, Music Wire’s maximum service temperature is less than that of Chrome-silicon.
Corrosion Resistance:
Once again, the actual operating environment plays a significant role. Many coatings are available that can provide adequate corrosion resistance for wire types that would not themselves resist corrosion. These include powder coating, phosphating with an oil dip or spray, and plating in some cases. Generally speaking, a coated spring produced from a traditional spring material will involve less cost than producing a spring from stainless steel. When the application is such that coated spring wire will not meet the requirements of the application, the focus turns to stainless steel wire. Type 302 stainless steel is generally the first choice. This wire can yield very corrosion-resistant springs for most environments. When the application calls for high operating temperatures as well, 17-7 PH wire will also likely be considered.
From the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) Manual on Design and Application of Helical and Spiral Springs, SAE HS-795
Shot Peening— This surface treatment has done more to increase the life of springs than any alloy steel or other process ever employed.
Relaxation or Load Loss in Helical Springs at Elevated Temperatures
If a helical spring is compressed by a given amount between parallel plates at elevated temperature, it will be found that the load exerted by the spring will gradually relax or drop off with time. The amount of this relaxation, or set, generally increases as the stress and/or temperature increases. Normally, the set is greater for long periods of time than for short ones.
Common Causes of Spring Failure:
1. Surface Imperfections
2. Corrosion--Corrosion is the major environmental factor which will promote spring breakage. It destroys and removes metal from the surface of the spring by chemical or electrochemical methods in an irregular fashion which causes an overall reduction in the spring stock size, compounded by localized areas of intensive metal removal. These effects seriously reduce both the static strength and the fatigue strength of the spring.
3. Improper Heat Treatment
Customers make better decisions with proper education.
Are ISMI springs Chrome-silicon (Valve) A877 or Chrome-silicon (Commercial) A401?
So, 8000 rounds on a typical USGI spring is probably too much. Since this one was probably 9 inches and change, would you probably have changed it out earlier, at say, 10 1/4 inches if that spec had been in your data bank?
Aubrey posted this elsewhere:
Don't know which CS they use (never asked). The owner did mention that it was the most expensive CS he could buy.
I would change CS springs out at around 5K. I would change out cheap SS springs at around 3-4K.
C4
...no one was really ever talking about Springs and proper maintence. This is why I have kind taken it on and want to educate people about spring life.
C4
Thanks Grant!
This is why you've become my "go-to guy" for all things carbine related. Every time I call you I get an education that blows out a lot of the stuff I thought I knew.
Link to David Tubbs Site (http://www.davidtubb.com/tcom_images/downloads/cs_springs.pdf)
Link to David Tubbs Site (http://www.davidtubb.com/tcom_images/downloads/cs_springs.pdf)
Have read that before and is a good data sheet. One of the key points in that sheet, is that some some springs can lose much of their "life" with just 350 compressions! I have seen with some new AR springs and it is shocking to see the spring lose so much of its length so fast.
C4
ar_mcadams
01-11-07, 22:10
here is some pictures of action springs. Every one is new and every one is different. First pic spring on the right is a spring from a Colt LEO rifle, SS I assume. The one on the left is from a older preban Colt Govt. carbine. It has a more yellowish tint to it. I assume its not SS (stainless).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/ar_mcadams/104_1993.jpg
next is two from a gunshow, the black looking one is supposed to be a CMT but I dont think it is. CMT should be SS and this dont look SS to me. The other on the left looks like a regular metal spring.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/ar_mcadams/104_1995.jpg
and here they are all lined up, every one is a different length and they are all new. The preban carbine spring only has about 50 rounds on it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/ar_mcadams/104_1996.jpg
ar_mcadams
01-11-07, 22:14
Are the springs in the Army m4s like the springs in the LEO Colt?
here is some pictures of action springs. Every one is new and every one is different. First pic spring on the right is a spring from a Colt LEO rifle, SS I assume. The one on the left is from a older preban Colt Govt. carbine. It has a more yellowish tint to it. I assume its not SS (stainless).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/ar_mcadams/104_1993.jpg
next is two from a gunshow, the black looking one is supposed to be a CMT but I dont think it is. CMT should be SS and this dont look SS to me. The other on the left looks like a regular metal spring.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/ar_mcadams/104_1995.jpg
and here they are all lined up, every one is a different length and they are all new. The preban carbine spring only has about 50 rounds on it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/ar_mcadams/104_1996.jpg
How do the lengths of these new springs compare to the standard that Submariner posted?
Submariner
01-12-07, 06:29
How do the lengths of these new springs compare to the standard that Submariner posted?
All that needs to be done is take the picture with a ruler alongside the springs. Buying a ruler is more cost-effective than arbitrarily picking a round count at which to replace the action spring.
While few may have been talking about action springs and reliability, the TM cited has been around since the 80's with M4 revisions added in the 90's. RTFM as Rickover used to say.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/DasBoot56/BUFFERtest.jpg
"Snob Appeal": the fallacy of attempting to prove a conclusion by appealing to what an elite or a select few (but not necessarily an authority) in a society or community thinks or believes.
ar_mcadams
01-12-07, 18:32
what kind of spring would you find in a real m4 carbine, stainless???
Submariner
01-12-07, 20:41
what kind of spring would you find in a real m4 carbine, stainless???
Would have a Colt spring.:D
It wouldn't be CS so that pretty much leaves stainless.
ar_mcadams
01-12-07, 21:22
Would have a Colt spring.:D
It wouldn't be CS so that pretty much leaves stainless.
thanks
good normal spring loses 10% of size but oh well a aac-ss buffer/spring sysem is in her now!!
Submariner
01-21-07, 07:35
Personally, I would rather buy outrageously-priced ammunition than spend money on replacing a spring which performs satisfactorily. The minimum spec is there for a reason. If the minimum wasn't good enough, it wouldn't be the minimum. (You can, of course, build in a fudge factor and replace before the stated spec, just so YOUR minimum let's you sleep nights.)
Buying a ruler is more cost-effective than arbitrarily picking a round count at which to replace the action spring.
The problem with that approach is you take a chance on the spring replacement no longer being preventative maintenance and becoming corrective maintenance.
The problem with that approach is you take a chance on the spring replacement no longer being preventative maintenance and becoming corrective maintenance.
Sounds like it needs to be an R-check - every X,000 rounds, remove the spring and measure it's length.
Jim
Sounds like it needs to be an R-check - every X,000 rounds, remove the spring and measure it's length.
Jim
Is that a pre-underway or post-underway check?:D
I think Subs does it everytime he cleans. Not a bad way of doing it. I don't clean my guns that often, so I might miss it.
Submariner
01-21-07, 12:10
Is that a pre-underway or post-underway check?:D
I think Subs does it everytime he cleans. Not a bad way of doing it. I don't clean my guns that often, so I might miss it.
According to the Manual, the check is quarterly.
I do it quarterly or as required as in whenever I clean it. It only becomes corrective if I measure and it is out-of-spec low. If it gets within a quarte inch of spec, I'll replace it as a preventive measure.;)
ETA: Both quarterly and every XXXX rounds are periodic. Keeping a gun book, it probably makes more sense to check every, say, 2000 rounds since the spring should not degrade over 91 days if it hasn't been fired during that time. The key element here is check and then take the decision to replace from spares.
According to the Manual, the check is quarterly.
I do it quarterly or as required as in whenever I clean it. It only becomes corrective if I measure and it is out-of-spec low. If it gets within a quarte inch of spec, I'll replace it as a preventive measure.;)
ETA: Both quarterly and every XXXX rounds are periodic. Keeping a gun book, it probably makes more sense to check every, say, 2000 rounds since the spring should not degrade over 91 days if it hasn't been fired during that time. The key element here is check and then take the decision to replace from spares.
Calendar-based maintenance is great, if you shoot about the same every quarter. If you don't then rounds-based is better IMO.
I know the Surface Navy went to run-time based maintenance on gas turbines, like the aviators had been doing forever, in the late 90s because it didn't make sense to do calendar-based maintenance when underway schedules varied so much.
According to the Manual, the check is quarterly.
I do it quarterly or as required as in whenever I clean it. It only becomes corrective if I measure and it is out-of-spec low. If it gets within a quarte inch of spec, I'll replace it as a preventive measure.;)
ETA: Both quarterly and every XXXX rounds are periodic. Keeping a gun book, it probably makes more sense to check every, say, 2000 rounds since the spring should not degrade over 91 days if it hasn't been fired during that time. The key element here is check and then take the decision to replace from spares.
There is a flaw in your thinking. The issue with SS springs is that they lose length JUST sitting in your weapon. ;) This is why CS is the clear choice for springs as they don't suffer from this issue like SS springs do.
You spend extra coin on Colt AR's because they follow the TDP and do things correctly. You then cheap out on springs when there are better options out there. I guess its kind of like buying a Porche and then putting General tires and water downed gas in it. Make sense? Didn't think so.
C4
There is a flaw in your thinking. The issue with SS springs is that they lose length JUST sitting in your weapon. ;)
C4
What is your source of information for this statement?
What is your source of information for this statement?
Personal experience and talking with spring manufacturers. Take a new SS spring and measure it. Stick it in your weapon. Come back a month later and measure it again. ;)
C4
Personal experience and talking with spring manufacturers. Take a new SS spring and measure it. Stick it in your weapon. Come back a month later and measure it again. ;)
C4
That's the initial set. A CS spring will do the same, at least so says David Tubbs who has been selling these things for years.
From what I understand, further degradation occurs from compression and rebound cycles, not just sitting in a safe static.
So compared to a CS spring, a SS or music wire spring will experience further degradation from usage more quickly than will a CS spring. While it may not lose compression resistance, it will lose rebound energy. This loss directly affects feeding and chambering.
That's the initial set. A CS spring will do the same, at least so says David Tubbs who has been selling these things for years.
From what I understand, further degradation occurs from compression and rebound cycles, not just sitting in a safe static.
So compared to a CS spring, a SS or music wire spring will experience further degradation from usage more quickly than will a CS spring. While it may not lose compression resistance, it will lose rebound energy. This loss directly affects feeding and chambering.
You are correct. Unless a spring is stressed beyond the elastic limit of the material, being compressed indefinitely won't do anything. Cyclic wear over time is what wears them out. This is the same as the ubiquitous "can I leave my pistol magazines loaded" discussions.
That's the initial set. A CS spring will do the same, at least so says David Tubbs who has been selling these things for years.
From what I understand, further degradation occurs from compression and rebound cycles, not just sitting in a safe static.
So compared to a CS spring, a SS or music wire spring will experience further degradation from usage more quickly than will a CS spring. While it may not lose compression resistance, it will lose rebound energy. This loss directly affects feeding and chambering.
Negative. Not from shooting, just letting it sit IN the weapon unused. Meaning, you install the spring and let it sit in the weapon and never fire it. You come back and the spring has shortened.
All springs take a set the first time the weapon is shot. The main difference between SS and CS is that the SS springs keeps on taking it.
C4
Negative. Not from shooting, just letting it sit IN the weapon unused. Meaning, you install the spring and let it sit in the weapon and never fire it. You come back and the spring has shortened.
All springs take a set the first time the weapon is shot. The main difference between SS and CS is that the SS springs keeps on taking it.
C4
Tubbs states that both spring materials will take an initial set -- CS are not immune to this.
SS may take a bigger set, I don't know. But if you put a SS spring in, let it sit one month and measure, then re-insert and let it sit another six months, I don't think you're going so see any additional set (shortening).
If you shoot it during that six month period it will degrade (shrink in length further).
Tubbs states that both spring materials will take an initial set -- CS are not immune to this.
SS may take a bigger set, I don't know. But if you put a SS spring in, let it sit one month and measure, then re-insert and let it sit another six months, I don't think you're going so see any additional set (shortening).
If you shoot it during that six month period it will degrade (shrink in length further).
No one is saying that a CS spring will NOT take a set. I am stating that a SS spring just sitting in your RE, will shorten EVEN though you have never fired the weapon.
Just as an FYI, this info comes via ISMI and then I duplicated it. They know FAR more about springs than you and I put together. Some of the conversations I have with them about springs, makes my head hurt.
I have not seen the ISMI springs that I have let sit in a weapon change shape like the SS springs. You will see the SS spring shorten (noticeably).
C4
No one is saying that a CS spring will NOT take a set. I am stating that a SS spring just sitting in your RE, will shorten EVEN though you have never fired the weapon.
Just as an FYI, this info comes via ISMI and then I duplicated it. They know FAR more about springs than you and I put together. Some of the conversations I have with them about springs, makes my head hurt.
I have not seen the ISMI springs that I have let sit in a weapon change shape like the SS springs. You will see the SS spring shorten (noticeably).
C4
Fair enough, I guess I read more into your initial statement than what you said. I thought you were suggesting that loss from resting in a static state was continual over time. My point was each type of spring will take an initial set, even from ersting in a static state. The CS spring set will be less than the SS spring set, and further degradation over it's life will be less than a SS spring's.
Submariner
01-21-07, 18:52
There is a flaw in your thinking. The issue with SS springs is that they lose length JUST sitting in your weapon. ;) This is why CS is the clear choice for springs as they don't suffer from this issue like SS springs do.
You spend extra coin on Colt AR's because they follow the TDP and do things correctly. You then cheap out on springs when there are better options out there. I guess its kind of like buying a Porche and then putting General tires and water downed gas in it. Make sense? Didn't think so.C4
This is new and different. For argument's sake, let's assume your hearsay evidence is true.:D Then a quarterly PM will pick up the shrinkage, won't it? Or will it shrink to out-of-spec low in less than 91 days?:eek: Now, how about providing us some hard evidence of your assertion? What is the rate of shrinkage? Maybe I do need to go the CS route on the ones in the safe that don't get fired much. Why they are shrinking as we speak?:eek:
You would have me put a new CS $18.00 spring in every 3000 rounds. Great for your bottom line, but not mine.:rolleyes: Give me the rate of shrinkage for both so we can run a cost-benefit analysis and maybe I'll agree with you. Otherwise, it's like asking a barber if you need a haircut.:D
BTW, I "cheap out" with Colt part number springs, which presumably follow the TDP, from Brownells, with the discount. It makes sense to me but I'm not a self-described "spring snob." Snob appeal is a marketing technique. "Snob Appeal": the fallacy of attempting to prove a conclusion by appealing to what an elite or a select few (but not necessarily an authority) in a society or community thinks or believes. If it's working for you, Grant, that's great.
This is new and different. For argument's sake, let's assume your hearsay evidence is true.:D Then a quarterly PM will pick up the shrinkage, won't it? Or will it shrink to out-of-spec low in less than 91 days?:eek: Now, how about providing us some hard evidence of your assertion? What is the rate of shrinkage? Maybe I do need to go the CS route on the ones in the safe that don't get fired much. Why they are shrinking as we speak?:eek:
You would have me put a new CS $18.00 spring in every 3000 rounds. Great for your bottom line, but not mine.:rolleyes: Give me the rate of shrinkage for both so we can run a cost-benefit analysis and maybe I'll agree with you. Otherwise, it's like asking a barber if you need a haircut.:D
BTW, I "cheap out" with Colt part number springs, which presumably follow the TDP, from Brownells, with the discount. It makes sense to me but I'm not a self-described "spring snob." Snob appeal is a marketing technique. "Snob Appeal": the fallacy of attempting to prove a conclusion by appealing to what an elite or a select few (but not necessarily an authority) in a society or community thinks or believes. If it's working for you, Grant, that's great.
There is no firm measurement on how much a SS spring will shrink and wasn't the point of my post. The point (that you missed) is that shrinkage happens in SS springs while they are doing nothing. If your trying to be as prepared as possible and want springs that will last twice as long than standard SS springs, then CS is really the only way to go.
I really don't care when you change out your springs. I also don't care how you come to the conclusion that they are worn out. I personally never pay to much attention to round count when I am using quality springs. I do a simple test with a 30rd mag and the bolt locked back to figure out if my buffer spring is GTG or not.
To my knowledge, the TDP doesn't really specify anything about springs (except length). The TDP also doesn't always suggest the best componets either and we all know that there are many ways to improve upon the TDP.
As I said, you choose Colt weapons because they use better materials, but choose to go the cheap route on your springs. This is of course your choice, but there are better options out there than factory springs.
C4
Submariner
01-21-07, 20:15
As I said, you choose Colt weapons because they use better materials, but choose to go the cheap route on your springs. This is of course your choice, but there are better options out there than factory springs.
C4
And I asked you for some evidence, other than what your vendors tell you to sell you their products, e.g. comparative shrinkage rates, so we could determine which is more cost-effective. You may very well be correct. But comparing the rates and cost/frequency of replacement over time settles the matter, not just your say so. OK?
What is so hard about providing it? Isn't that how one objectively determines if a choice is "cheap"? More expensive (and profitable to you) doesn't necessarily mean my choice is "cheap", does it?
I personally never pay to much attention to round count when I am using quality springs. I do a simple test with a 30rd mag and the bolt locked back to figure out if my buffer spring is GTG or not.
C4
How does bolt lock back play into assessing spring effectiveness? I would think that as a spring wears, the ability to lock the bolt back becomes easier and easier since it's compression dampening weakens over time. I suppose a spring could get so weak it would not offer enough compression resistance and you could end up having extractor issues, but it would have to have got pretty bad by that point that other problems would appear prior.
I would guess that the real test is whether or not a spring that's had many rounds through it is able strip off a new round and ensure the bolt is fully seated/engaged (rebound force).
Submariner
01-21-07, 20:45
How does bolt lock back play into assessing spring effectiveness? I would think that as a spring wears, the ability to lock the bolt back becomes easier and easier since it's compression dampening weakens over time. I suppose a spring could get so weak it would not offer enough compression resistance and you could end up having extractor issues, but it would have to have got pretty bad by that point that other problems would appear prior.
I would guess that the real test is whether or not a spring that's had many rounds through it is able strip off a new round and ensure the bolt is fully seated/engaged (rebound force).
Here's what he said:
No. The spring would not allow the bolt to strip a round off of a 30rd mag.
C4
This was on his out-of-spec short, 8000 round buffer spring.
I believe that CS springs are the best for longevity.
However, I use normal springs, and do regular replacement of them.
I replace all springs on my birthday each year.
I'm not a "high round count" type of shooter normally, so it's ok in my case.
If I were attending a training class, I'd replace all the springs before I went to the class, as preventive maintainance.
In a typical class which has alot of rounds expended, I'd also replace them soon after the class was over, maybe a few range trips later.
I'd consider 2000-2500 rounds a good time to consider changing all action-related springs, if you shoot alot and can't use the "birthday method".
Springs are cheap.
I think it's better to use routine replacement of them, so you don't get caught with a bad one at the wrong time.
I use the same attitude with all my other high wear items like extractors and firing pins too.
I realize that it is prevalent for AR owners to wait until something breaks, before they replace it. I don't use that philosophy.
To each his own.
And I asked you for some evidence, other than what your vendors tell you to sell you their products, e.g. comparative shrinkage rates, so we could determine which is more cost-effective. You may very well be correct. But comparing the rates and cost/frequency of replacement over time settles the matter, not just your say so. OK?
What is so hard about providing it? Isn't that how one objectively determines if a choice is "cheap"? More expensive (and profitable to you) doesn't necessarily mean my choice is "cheap", does it?
And if you read my post, you would have realized that I verified what the vendor stated. That SS springs will shrink just sitting in your weapon.
There is no need to calculate rates (as I hope no one on here is that anal retentive). The sole purpose of my comments was to make you aware of something you didn't know (which you didn't). There is also no need to "compare" rates as it really doesn't matter. Why do I say that? Because CS springs simply out lasts SS springs and provide more consistant resistance for double the round count(at least).
The goal with building a reliable weapon is to use parts that are considered the most dependable and longest lasting. This is why we use 4150 barrel steel and have it chrome lined. You could use the barrel just fine without the chrome, but it wouldn't last as long or be AS reliable.
As far as putting money in my pocket, I could care less. You don't have to buy a ISMI spring. You also don't have to buy it from me. The purpose of my comments is to educate folks about springs and nothing more. I will also state, that I will NEVER get rich from selling ISMI buffer springs so you can keep you logic that I am just trying to pull a fast one on the unsuspecting consumer and shove it where the sun don't shine! ;)
C4
How does bolt lock back play into assessing spring effectiveness? I would think that as a spring wears, the ability to lock the bolt back becomes easier and easier since it's compression dampening weakens over time. I suppose a spring could get so weak it would not offer enough compression resistance and you could end up having extractor issues, but it would have to have got pretty bad by that point that other problems would appear prior.
I would guess that the real test is whether or not a spring that's had many rounds through it is able strip off a new round and ensure the bolt is fully seated/engaged (rebound force).
In my test, I was referring to the bolt not having the ability to strip a round off the mag while it was locked back. I didn't explain the procedure well enough (sorry).
C4
I believe that CS springs are the best for longevity.
However, I use normal springs, and do regular replacement of them.
I replace all springs on my birthday each year.
I'm not a "high round count" type of shooter normally, so it's ok in my case.
If I were attending a training class, I'd replace all the springs before I went to the class, as preventive maintainance.
In a typical class which has alot of rounds expended, I'd also replace them soon after the class was over, maybe a few range trips later.
I'd consider 2000-2500 rounds a good time to consider changing all action-related springs, if you shoot alot and can't use the "birthday method".
Springs are cheap.
I think it's better to use routine replacement of them, so you don't get caught with a bad one at the wrong time.
I use the same attitude with all my other high wear items like extractors and firing pins too.
I realize that it is prevalent for AR owners to wait until something breaks, before they replace it. I don't use that philosophy.
To each his own.
That is certainly a good way to do it, but bubblehead feels that is a waste of money to use this method. I do not and generally do what your saying if I have had a high round count year.
C4
Submariner
01-22-07, 09:55
There is no need to calculate rates (as I hope no one on here is that anal retentive). The sole purpose of my comments was to make you aware of something you didn't know (which you didn't). There is also no need to "compare" rates as it really doesn't matter. Why do I say that? Because CS springs simply out lasts SS springs and provide more consistant resistance for double the round count(at least).
C4
I read somewhere that by the testimony of two or three witnesses a matter is determined. You made a point about shrinkage that I had never heard or read. Has anyone else? I searched a couple of sites and found nothing. I heard from one witness: you (and that was what you heard from your vendor.) I asked for some evidence other than what you say. I should think you would be happy to share that. It would only make you look like a really knowledgeable dealer trying to educate his customers so they make better choices.
Ronald Reagan said, "Trust but verify." What's the problem with verifying what you say?
I could say that using an untested bolt from the same original contractor, but not marked "MPF" or "MPC" is cheap. But I won't.:D
I read somewhere that by the testimony of two or three witnesses a matter is determined. You made a point about shrinkage that I had never heard or read. Has anyone else? I searched a couple of sites and found nothing. I heard from one witness: you (and that was what you heard from your vendor.) I asked for some evidence other than what you say. I should think you would be happy to share that. It would only make you look like a really knowledgeable dealer trying to educate his customers so they make better choices.
Ronald Reagan said, "Trust but verify." What's the problem with verifying what you say?
I could say that using an untested bolt from the same original contractor, but not marked "MPF" or "MPC" is cheap. But I won't.:D
How many people do you know, buy a new spring and stick it in the weapon and let it sit? Generally, the only people that would do this kind of thing are spring manufacturers and dealers that are into learning about springs. Very narrow field and explains why you don't ever hear anything about it. Not to mention, how many dealers do you hear talking about doing PM's on weapons and doing research on springs to find the best? Not very many (if any).
As far as bolts go, it is apples and oranges. I wanted to provide a good source of quality bolts and carriers at a fair price (which I have done). Ever see any other dealer go to this effort to improve a product and cut prices? Didn't think so.
I would also suggest that you be careful about questioning my integrity as a dealer and as a person. I do not take kindly to it.
C4
Submariner
01-22-07, 10:14
I would also suggest that you be careful about questioning my integrity as a dealer and as a person. I do not take kindly to it.
C4
I want to trust what you say but there is a need to verify it. Is that a problem? You told us that the new Magpul magazines would have ISMI springs yet the list price you gave was 2 bucks over what they sold a spring for. What you posted was incorrect. Is calling your attention to that questioning your integrity? Or seeking verification of other assertions, e.g. shrinkage, you make based on what vendors have told you privately? If it is, please forgive me.
I want to trust what you say but there is a need to verify it. Is that a problem? You told us that the new Magpul magazines would have ISMI springs yet the list price you gave was 2 bucks over what they sold a spring for. What you posted was incorrect. Is calling your attention to that questioning your integrity? Or seeking verification of other assertions you make based on what vendors have told you privately? If it is, please forgive me.
You must mistake me for someone that cares what you think. If it is that important to you, please go verify it on your own. I will also state that the fact that SS springs lose length just sitting in your RE doesn't really matter. The point was made simply to let me people know that SS springs don't have to be used to shorten. What you do with the info is your business.
The PMAG using ISMI springs was incorrect and I posted as such several weeks ago (go back and read it).
What I have a problem with is that you require two or three people to independently verify what I have said. My word is good around here. ISMI's word is also good in my book as well because everything they have taught me has been found to be accurate. I trust what they tell me and have never found any reason to doubt them.
C4
In my test, I was referring to the bolt not having the ability to strip a round off the mag while it was locked back. I didn't explain the procedure well enough (sorry).
C4
Thanks. I realized that after going back to PAGE 1. ;)
Seriously, appreciate the dialog on this. This is a good thread and this is why I like the technical board.
Thanks. I realized that after going back to PAGE 1. ;)
Seriously, appreciate the dialog on this. This is a good thread and this is why I like the technical board.
Thanks and is why I like M4C (good technical dialogue).
C4
at 1500 rds -sping died[greased with moly] and end of buffer hit and marks on the bolt carrier !so whats life of a recoil spring ?
This sounded wrong and I decided to check it out.
Even without the recoil spring, the carrier key SHOULD NOT bottom out and hit the lower or tube.
I still had a good quarter inch of clearence without the spring.
If this in fact has happened and I havent misunderstood you something is wrong with the rifle.
Are you running a carbine buffer in a rifle tube?
Is that plastic bumper on the end of the buffer intact? Is it compressed?
Interesting:confused:
Seth Harness
03-03-07, 19:22
Wale... I jus grab aholt uv my worde out spring, won end in my rite hand n won end in tuther, n giv it a guud yank... ya no strech er out alittle. BANG!! bran nu spring... hope at helps. :D :D
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