View Full Version : NRA Service Rifle
stanlyonjr
04-14-09, 12:40
How many here are shooting NRA service rifle matches? I do.
powderBurnz
04-20-09, 21:01
Me too.
I feel this may be the wrong forum for High Power shooters.
I initially joined because of the emphasis put on reliability and durability of the AR-15 platform.
IMO, that's extremely important in a Service Rifle/Match Rifle. Most of the fellows here seem to be tactical shooters, not a lot we can get that's still within CMP rules.
Still, I have learned a bit, and with an open mind hope to get even smarter.
Mark15
I've shot Service Rifle a few times, and last year decided to get bit more serious about it after shooting at the Atlantic Fleet match.
I just put together my first Service Rifle class AR. I won't get to use it for the fleet this year as I just had back surgery and am on some pretty strict limitations right now.
http://i42.tinypic.com/kewy9z.jpg
stanlyonjr
04-23-09, 17:58
I've shot Service Rifle a few times, and last year decided to get bit more serious about it after shooting at the Atlantic Fleet match.
I just put together my first Service Rifle class AR. I won't get to use it for the fleet this year as I just had back surgery and am on some pretty strict limitations right now.
http://i42.tinypic.com/kewy9z.jpg
Who built your AR?
I put the rifle together.
The lower is an Anvil Arms lowr reciever (Laser engraved by them for me as well).
Stag lower parts kit with RRA 2 stage trigger.
The Upper is a DPMS NM A2 with WhiteOak NM rear sight apperture and I did the JB weld trick to true up the elevation travel.
DPMS BCG
DPMS 1:8 twist cryo-treated SS barrel. (Everyone else was out of barrels when I started looking) I know this is going to have a tight chamber. But it seems more accurate than I am still, so I'll have to get to where I can outshoot this rig before I have to replace the barrel.
I have also bedded the rear lug of the upper so there is no play between upper and lower. (I know it isn't supposed to affect accuracy, but all of the Navy RRA rifles last year were tightly fitted upper/lower combos, so I figured it couldn't hurt).
Running the web sling as I find it easier to get set between stages.
It's definitely a different set-up than any of my other ARs that have been built with an eye toward light weight, and fast pointing.
I just found that I need to really build on my marksmanship fundamentals and found that Service Rifle is the best place for me to do this. I like the challenges of a "limited class" and working within those limits to see how good I can get and how much I need to improve. It seems easier without all the "high speed parts" acting as variables and distractions that you can blame for poor performance.
I can still grow into this sport by getting better barrels down the road, spending some cash on a good shooting coat, and getting a nicer spotting scope. But most of the growth will have to come from my own improvement in technique.
stanlyonjr
04-24-09, 11:23
What are you all shooting at 600 yards. I've been messing around with Berger 80gr VLD's with good results. Also 77gr Sierra match also with good results. For the 200 and 300yd shoots I use 69gr Sierra's with very good results. I have an RRA NM A2. I like the Wilson barrel that it comes with, but when its done I'll install a Krieger with 1:7.75 twist. I have a buddy that has one and he shoots stellar groups with it. He also is a very good shot which does not hurt. I've been thinking about trying to set-up a load for the 70gr Berger. Whats everyone shooting?
At the fleet matches everyone was given Black Hills Mk 262 Mod 1 ammo. 77gr SMK with caneluer(sp?). Used this round at 200, 300, and 600(500 reduced).
I've been practicing with Black Hills 77 and 75 gr match (seconds). I've also run some Hornady 75 gr TAP that performs quite well. Prvi Partisan 75gr Match works fairly well but gives regular flyers about 1 out of every 5-6 rounds.
Many of the folks I spoke to at the Fleet match were happy with the 77gr. Sierra Match Kings over Ram Tac powder for handloads.
That's a nice looking rig!
What are you using for a free float tube?
What chamber are you running? I've found the 5.56 match chamber works well. This chamber has the NATO freebore with the leade (sp?) cut for the ogive of the heavier Sierra Matchkings. The extra freebore lets you seat the 80's out to take advantage of the limited case capacity.
I've been getting away with a flattop receiver. I use an "F" height front sight, and so far, haven't run out of elevation at 600. Maybe I've just been lucky. LOL
I really like the AR platform. IMO, it's not as much fun as the M1A, but they're not tempermental like the M1A's either. I've found the AR's to outshoot the old rifles any time.
Mark15
exkc135driver
04-25-09, 00:33
How many here are shooting NRA service rifle matches? I do.
Me too.
I feel this may be the wrong forum for High Power shooters.
Without a doubt (although many SR competitors I know shoot ARs in other configurations as well). Plus, it’s always entertaining to see how many people think you can’t hit anything with an AR past 200 yards without an optic.
What are you all shooting at 600 yards. I've been messing around with Berger 80gr VLD's with good results. Also 77gr Sierra match also with good results. For the 200 and 300yd shoots I use 69gr Sierra's with very good results. … Whats everyone shooting?
Sierra 69 MKs at 200/300, Sierra 80 MKs at 600, all moly’d. I’m going to work up some loads for Sierra 77 MKs and see how they do at 300.
Bushmaster lower, Jewell trigger, CLE-built upper with floated 1:8 BlackStar barrel as primary gun … Colt with Milazzo trigger, Turner-built upper with floated Obermeyer 1:8 barrel as backup. Each gun weighs about 14 pounds.
Fortunately there is a lot of Highpower activity in my area with 2 600-yard ranges not too far away.
stanlyonjr
04-25-09, 01:03
Me too.
Without a doubt (although many SR competitors I know shoot ARs in other configurations as well). Plus, it’s always entertaining to see how many people think you can’t hit anything with an AR past 200 yards without an optic.
Sierra 69 MKs at 200/300, Sierra 80 MKs at 600, all moly’d. I’m going to work up some loads for Sierra 77 MKs and see how they do at 300.
Bushmaster lower, Jewell trigger, CLE-built upper with floated 1:8 BlackStar barrel as primary gun … Colt with Milazzo trigger, Turner-built upper with floated Obermeyer 1:8 barrel as backup. Each gun weighs about 14 pounds.
Fortunately there is a lot of Highpower activity in my area with 2 600-yard ranges not too far away.
Whats even more entertaining than that is people who have no clue about NRA service rifle competition. The AR-15 rifle we shoot are not your average AR-15. 20" match barrels, 1/4 min pinned precision sights, full floating front hand guards, two stage match triggers, ammo hand loaded and tuned to the best performance for each individual barrel (which requires hours of painstaking testing and more testing). Leather shooting jackets that fit like a glove. A national match leather slings that are pulled so tight they cut off the circulation in your arm all used in conjunction to hold the rifle as still as possible for the highest shot value. And oh yeah all done with open metal sights at up to and including 600 yards. Thats what NRA service rifle is all about. No scopes, no fancy optics, No BS!!
exkc135driver
04-25-09, 01:16
Thats what NRA service rifle is all about. No scopes, no fancy optics, No BS!!
But what is even better (at least compared to IPSC/USPSA) is ... no quibbling ... no whining ... no bitching and moaning. If it rains, you get wet. If your firing point has ants, you get bit. If you've been to Perry every year since 1909, nobody really cares. If your shot scores as a "9," you accept it. No going to find the CRO and cry on his shoulder.
stanlyonjr
04-25-09, 01:22
Exactly. The only time an event is called is for lightning. Kind of a rain, snow or sleet sort of thing.
That's a nice looking rig!
What are you using for a free float tube?
What chamber are you running? I've found the 5.56 match chamber works well. This chamber has the NATO freebore with the leade (sp?) cut for the ogive of the heavier Sierra Matchkings. The extra freebore lets you seat the 80's out to take advantage of the limited case capacity.
I've been getting away with a flattop receiver. I use an "F" height front sight, and so far, haven't run out of elevation at 600. Maybe I've just been lucky. LOL
I really like the AR platform. IMO, it's not as much fun as the M1A, but they're not tempermental like the M1A's either. I've found the AR's to outshoot the old rifles any time.
Mark15
This rifle has a White Oak float tube and is running a .223 match chamber. It seems to be o.k. with loads up to 77gr so far. I haven't tried any 80 gr loads.
Next barrel will probably be a Krieger with .223 Wylde chamber and 1:7.7 twist.
The first service rifle match I ever shot was with an M1A. The AR seems so much easier to handle on the firing line though that it almost feels like cheating.
The old joke goes something like this.
The firing line was a sea of mud:
The smallbore shooter picked up and went home.
The pistol shooter filed a written protest.
The trap shooter whined about it.
The high power shooter laid down in it.
Mark15
Will anybody here be at the Atlantic Fleet Matches in a few weeks.
stanlyonjr
04-27-09, 17:39
West coast here!! Sorry. Too far to drive.
I was planning on it until my back surgery. Good range and lots of good folks that come out there to put it on. Be prepared to learn some great tips. I learned more in a week there than I had in years.
If LCDR (Probably CDR by now) Bartell is there and gives his class on 1911 building stay the extra day and sit in on it.
Lots of Distinguished Marksmen out there giving great coaching on the early stages, before coaching gets prohibited.
The Academy team did really well last year. Their Doc wasn't too shabby either, Pretty sure he went home with a certificate for one of the SECNAV's rifles last year.
Yea, I've been before. Took High Active Pistol Team Trophy and I'm embarrassed to say I got First Leather the second EIC match. Hopefully I'll break the curse in a few weeks as I was told no one who took that booby prize has placed in awhile.
Be there!
Trying that one-handed pistol stuff again --that stuff's hard!
http://militarysignatures.com/signatures/member2557e.png (http://militarysignatures.com)
Would've rather gone to Pac Fleet matches but sched. wouldn't allow. Just dropped some green back on a DCM legal pistol so as usual I have alot invested. Hopefully I win some shiny stuff and not a piece of leather. :D
Alpha Sierra
05-06-09, 05:59
Used to, until the prone bug bit and bit hard.
Now I just run this:
http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp290/JRossy/guns/DSC00400.jpg
I have also bedded the rear lug of the upper so there is no play between upper and lower. (I know it isn't supposed to affect accuracy, but all of the Navy RRA rifles last year were tightly fitted upper/lower combos, so I figured it couldn't hurt).
Doc,
None of the rifles are bedded. RRA are normally that tight. If you used Navy equipment we met since I was the first class passing weapons out of the van and ammo on the line. I will be doing it again this year. This will probably be my last Navy match.
Daniel Jones
AW1 USNR
Whats even more entertaining than that is people who have no clue about NRA service rifle competition. The AR-15 rifle we shoot are not your average AR-15. 20" match barrels, 1/4 min pinned precision sights, full floating front hand guards, two stage match triggers, ammo hand loaded and tuned to the best performance for each individual barrel (which requires hours of painstaking testing and more testing). Leather shooting jackets that fit like a glove. A national match leather slings that are pulled so tight they cut off the circulation in your arm all used in conjunction to hold the rifle as still as possible for the highest shot value. And oh yeah all done with open metal sights at up to and including 600 yards. Thats what NRA service rifle is all about. No scopes, no fancy optics, No BS!!
Those sound like some really fancy, gussied-up, precision custom jobs there, all right.
But for those of us who were issued (& own) carbines with (as you call them) "BS" on them such as "fancy optics" (I suppose you are referring to ACOGs and AimPoints?) - why is it your game is called "Service Rifle" when the services never fielded anything like your guns? And what about the current-issue for most everyone actually in the field these days (ie boots on the ground overseas). From what i can tell, its an M4, not some custom A2. Granted - the M4 is a carbine, not a rifle. Since they have refused to to create "service carbine" - are active duty/recent vets simply not welcome unless we go out and purchase some civilian match rifle & take up handloading? Maybe I am missing something here - but what makes this game "service" related?
I suppose the SPR is a rifle. Mind if I use the issue bipod & optic as intended? (rather not use a circulation-cutting sling, thanks).
Not to knock the fun of Service rifle, but the "BS" comment you added just seemed to go too far when hyping an anachronistic sport like Service Rifle.
Those sound like some really fancy, gussied-up, precision custom jobs there, all right.
But for those of us who were issued (& own) carbines with (as you call them) "BS" on them such as "fancy optics" (I suppose you are referring to ACOGs and AimPoints?) - why is it your game is called "Service Rifle" when the services never fielded anything like your guns? And what about the current-issue for most everyone actually in the field these days (ie boots on the ground overseas). From what i can tell, its an M4, not some custom A2. Granted - the M4 is a carbine, not a rifle. Since they have refused to to create "service carbine" - are active duty/recent vets simply not welcome unless we go out and purchase some civilian match rifle & take up handloading? Maybe I am missing something here - but what makes this game "service" related?
I suppose the SPR is a rifle. Mind if I use the issue bipod & optic as intended? (rather not use a circulation-cutting sling, thanks).
Not to knock the fun of Service rifle, but the "BS" comment you added just seemed to go too far when hyping an anachronistic sport like Service Rifle.
You can use your MK12/DMR clone in "F" class if you want. Service rifle along with pistol are akin to NASCAR. The externals must look like issued items but the insides can be quite different. Matter of fact the NRA just allowed M-110 clones also. CMP hasn't as of yet but I see that happening soon since the AMU was the ones driving the M110
There has been talk of modifying the rules to allow M4 clones into the matches but if you want to take your M4 clone and compete in an NRA match you are more that welcomed but you are severely handicapping yourself if you do. CMP does have the Carbine matches but that is more driven for the M-1.
If you are active/reserve Navy you can come to the matches without owning any equipment and they have loaner gear. The Army only allows issued equipment in their matches from what I've been told.
There is a lot of history behind service rifle and there has been a lot of resistance to change.
Come on out and bring what you own. For the most part that is how the rest of got into the game.
Dan
exkc135driver
05-07-09, 17:05
But for those of us who were issued (& own) carbines with (as you call them) "BS" on them such as "fancy optics" (I suppose you are referring to ACOGs and AimPoints?) - why is it your game is called "Service Rifle" when the services never fielded anything like your guns?
NRA Service Rifle competition started in the early part of the last century. The reason that it is called “Service Rifle” competition lies in both the history of the competition and the rules for the competition. If you are interested, you may research them for yourself.
Competitors may use the M1 Garand, M14/M1A, and M16/AR-15 platform. I’m not sure if it is still legal to use M1903 or Krag rifles.
Not to knock the fun of Service rifle, but the "BS" comment you added just seemed to go too far when hyping an anachronistic sport like Service Rifle.
Anachronistic sport? If competitors used blunderbusses and flintlocks, then that term might be appropriate. The firearms used in Service Rifle competition are not anachronistic. Perhaps you do not know what the word means.
Alpha Sierra
05-08-09, 10:11
Those sound like some really fancy, gussied-up, precision custom jobs there, all right.
But for those of us who were issued (& own) carbines with (as you call them) "BS" on them such as "fancy optics" (I suppose you are referring to ACOGs and AimPoints?) - why is it your game is called "Service Rifle" when the services never fielded anything like your guns? And what about the current-issue for most everyone actually in the field these days (ie boots on the ground overseas). From what i can tell, its an M4, not some custom A2. Granted - the M4 is a carbine, not a rifle. Since they have refused to to create "service carbine" - are active duty/recent vets simply not welcome unless we go out and purchase some civilian match rifle & take up handloading? Maybe I am missing something here - but what makes this game "service" related?
I suppose the SPR is a rifle. Mind if I use the issue bipod & optic as intended? (rather not use a circulation-cutting sling, thanks).
Not to knock the fun of Service rifle, but the "BS" comment you added just seemed to go too far when hyping an anachronistic sport like Service Rifle.
Perhaps you should not be so thin skinned.
Perhaps, instead of poking fun at the sport, you should find a rifle that meets the rules, buy some ammo (Prvi Partizan makes great 75 grain ammo that will reach the 600 yrd targets) and improve your marksmanship skill.
NRA Highpower has two major rifle categories: service and match. A match rifle can be anything that is .30 caliber or less, is a repeater, has metallic sights, holds at least 5 rounds in the magazine, and can be quickly reloaded. An issue M-4 with a NM carry handle/rear sight (so that you have enough elevation for the 600 yard line) and an M1 canvas sling is an NRA match rifle and you get to shoot the same course of fire and targets as the service rifle shooters do.
Doc,
None of the rifles are bedded. RRA are normally that tight. If you used Navy equipment we met since I was the first class passing weapons out of the van and ammo on the line. I will be doing it again this year. This will probably be my last Navy match.
Daniel Jones
AW1 USNR
I remember you. I know the navy rifles aren't bedded. But there was a touch of slop in this upper and lower of mine and a little birdy told me that the AMU had played around with epoxy bedding the rear lug and skim bedding between the upper and lower receiver surfaces. I don't think it makes any real difference mechanically, but it sure feels nice to have no wobble in the upper and lower.
The RRA that I got out of the van last year was a nice tight fit from RRA to begin with. It definitely shot nice. I just couldn't get a complete RRA with the current wait times. Then the back surgery threw another kink in my plans for this year.
Got my AR and my 1911A1 built and don't get to play this year.
Mark Sizemore
HMC(SS)IDC USN
1. Maybe I am missing something here - but what makes this game "service" related?
2. Not to knock the fun of Service rifle, but the "BS" comment you added just seemed to go too far when hyping an anachronistic sport like Service Rifle.
I'm down medically right now so I've got some time to address some of your questions.
1. The game of service rifle, and the birth of the NRA come out of the American Civil War. After Billy Yank spent the first half of the war getting his butt handed to him by lesser equipped troops of lesser manpower, due in no small part to greater marksmanship skill, some officers decided Federal troops needed to continually hone their marksmanship skills after the war was concluded.
Regional matches or meets were set up to find the best marksmen and to coach other soldiers in the fundamental skills of marksmanship. Now granted, back then they didn't have much choice between using issued weapons or fancy accurized rigs. The regional meets became an elimination game and top competitiors and units went on to compete in a final match held in New York. Eventually the matches were moved to Camp Perry, Ohio, and the early beginings of the Civilian Marksmanship Program were set up under Theodore Roosevelt.
The games continued as a training tool on marksmanship fundamentals. And have stuck to those same basic principles to this day. Those primary fundamentals being: natural point of aim, proper sight alignment, proper sight picture, trigger control, and breath control. These fundamentals have not changed with technology, and any marksman seeking to improve his skills as a shooter must still practice these.
As others stated, there have been changes in highpower to accomodate different classes of rifles. Service Rifle remains one of the most tradition based rifle competitions still around. By limiting the modifications to weapons that have been established as general issue, there is a leveling of the playingfield that makes the competition more of a rifleman versus rifleman sport instead of a gear versus gear sport. But as with any competition shooters will seek a competative edge. This is why match barrels, float tubes and precision sights are made that configure to the outward military issue appearance of a general issue rifle.
The fact that there are some modifications shouldn't prevent someone from trying service rifle competition with an unmodified rifle. Someone can still learn a lot with a box stock A2. Will he have a competative edge, no.
Also, local gun clubs often ofer service rifle competitions that have some flex in the rules, where carbines are welcome. Again the short sight radius could be a bit of a disadvantage, but the carbine owner can still find out the practical limits of his carbine. (And probably surprise himself in the process).
The basic course of fire involves:
1. shooting standing at 200 yards with the rifle only supported by the body. No sling use is allowed to provide further stabilization. (10 rounds in 10 minutes)
2. Going from standing to sitting and firing 10 rounds in 60 seconds at 200 yards with one magazine change. Sling in tight for this one.
3. 300 yards going from standing to prone and firing 10 rounds in 70 seconds with one magazine change. Sling in tight.
4. 600 yards Prone slow fire 20 shots in 20 minutes single loaded. Sling in tight
If you don't know how much of an advantage a good tight sling can have on your stability and repeatability of shots then you really need to get out and try this stuff. Groups can be cut dramatically by proper sling use.
2. As to the "BS" coment. I may be wrong in my interpretations, but I took it to mean the arguments that often happen at practical shooting matches don't happen at highpower matches as frequently and are usually more civil. (I still make sure I've got 2 one dollar bills though, just in case I need to challenge a spot.) Perhaps "BS" was meant as distractions of gear, and gear failures, but I really thought he was talking about competator attitudes.
If you were trying to imply that Service Rifle is "Archaic" or "old fashioned", it is built on traditions and the rules and the competition itself is designed to get the most out of the shooter. If trying to better ones self is out of style that's a pretty bold and sad statement. The need for marksmanship still remains a sound military principle for the times the optics fail, or when you need to know who your best shooter is to get the skilled shooting job done.
Somali Pirates got a lesson in rifle skill and how important it can be to be able to use a rifle in rough elements. To perform such fundamental skils as being able to read wind, and to account for drop. Sometimes you can't just send a hail of bullets in the direction of a 3 MOA red dot.
What's the JB weld trick ? I know what JB weld is.
I put the rifle together.
The lower is an Anvil Arms lowr reciever (Laser engraved by them for me as well).
Stag lower parts kit with RRA 2 stage trigger.
The Upper is a DPMS NM A2 with WhiteOak NM rear sight apperture and I did the JB weld trick to true up the elevation travel.
DPMS BCG
DPMS 1:8 twist cryo-treated SS barrel. (Everyone else was out of barrels when I started looking) I know this is going to have a tight chamber. But it seems more accurate than I am still, so I'll have to get to where I can outshoot this rig before I have to replace the barrel.
I have also bedded the rear lug of the upper so there is no play between upper and lower. (I know it isn't supposed to affect accuracy, but all of the Navy RRA rifles last year were tightly fitted upper/lower combos, so I figured it couldn't hurt).
Running the web sling as I find it easier to get set between stages.
It's definitely a different set-up than any of my other ARs that have been built with an eye toward light weight, and fast pointing.
I just found that I need to really build on my marksmanship fundamentals and found that Service Rifle is the best place for me to do this. I like the challenges of a "limited class" and working within those limits to see how good I can get and how much I need to improve. It seems easier without all the "high speed parts" acting as variables and distractions that you can blame for poor performance.
I can still grow into this sport by getting better barrels down the road, spending some cash on a good shooting coat, and getting a nicer spotting scope. But most of the growth will have to come from my own improvement in technique.
exkc135driver
05-09-09, 12:13
To add a bit to the comments already made …
As others have noted, a Service Rifle (which can be an M1, M14/M1A, or M16/AR-15 but is most commonly an AR-15) must have the outward appearance and configuration of the rifle on which it is based, but may have numerous internal modifications such as (as applicable to the weapon system in question) a match barrel, float tube, match 2-stage trigger, better sights, rear lug, glass bedding, etc. A Match Rifle is basically anything else. As we all know, there are numerous configurations of ARs from stock A1/A2 models to guns with rails, lights, lasers, scopes, different calibers, etc. You can shoot any of those rifles as a Match rifle provided that (a) the rifle is chambered in something not over .30 caliber (generally construed to mean .308; I don’t know if a 7.62 x 39, which shoots a bullet of slightly greater diameter, would be acceptable) and (b) only iron sights are used (although many competitions have at least one “any sight” match).
Want to see how you and your Mk12 clone/middy/SBR perform at 600 yards? Take the optic and suppressor (if you have them) off and enter the Match rifle category. You won’t win anything, but you will learn a lot. (Note that, depending on local club rules and how the pits are set up, because of the comparatively steep downward trajectory at 600 yards of bullets fired from short barrels, the match officials may not allow you to use a shorter-barrel rifle; check first.)
The course of fire described by SSGN is the National Match Course. If fired as an EIC (“Leg”) match under CMP rules, no sighting shots are allowed. If fired as an NRA match under NRA rules, each of the 4 strings of fire will have an additional 2 sighter shots.
There are several variations on the NMC, of which the 88-shot Regional Match Course (80 shots for score) is the most common:
> Slow fire standing, 200 yds, 22 shots in 22 minutes (first 2 shots are sighters and do not count for score);
> Rapid fire sitting from standing, 200 yds, 2 sighters sitting, then stand and shoot 1 string of 10 shots in 60 seconds, then stand and shoot a second string of 10 shots;
> Rapid fire prone from standing, 300 yds, 2 sighters prone, then stand and shoot 1 string of 10 shots in 70 seconds, then stand and shoot a second string of 10 shots;
> Slow fire prone, 600 yds, 22 shots in 22 minutes (first 2 shots are sighters).
The fact that there are some modifications shouldn't prevent someone from trying service rifle competition with an unmodified rifle. Someone can still learn a lot with a box stock A2.
…
but the carbine owner can still find out the practical limits of his carbine. (And probably surprise himself in the process).
Absolutely true. For those who think you can’t hit anything smaller than a barn at 300 yards using iron sights on an AR, bring your blaster to a match and give it a try. You may be surprised by what accuracy you can achieve at 600 yards with iron sights, practice, and decent light.
Oh, yes, one final thing. These matches (CMP matches and some club matches excepted) are NRA matches. If you aren’t an NRA member (a) you can’t enter these matches and (b) WTF are you doing on this forum if you don’t support the 2nd Amendment? (If you aren’t an NRA member, you DON’T support the 2nd Amendment. Want to disagree with that statement? Don’t bother. Go whine somewhere else. Try USPSA. They don't require NRA membership, and whining is tolerated – even encouraged – over there.)
What's the JB weld trick ? I know what JB weld is.
Instead of using a pin mounted through the rear sight to get it to track perfectly straight up and down, the gap on the right side of the forward portion of the rear sight is checked with a feeler guage. My gap was .020.
The rear sight assembly is removed and you use a micrometer to measure the distance from the rear of the sight to the front face of the sight that actually slides up and down the rear face of the carry handle.
JB Weld (I actually used JB Kwick) is applied to the front side of the sight and allowed to harden. You add the measurment value from the feeler guage to the measurment value you got from the micrometer. You then file or sand, or stone down the JB Weld until you have your corrected measurement with the micrometer.
I use 600 grit sand paper and a marble block that I have to ensure that I grind down the JB Weld as square as possible. Go slowly so that you don't have to do it all over again.
No replace the rear sight and "viola!" it is now trued and has no rotational play as adjustments are made to elevation.
This was passed on to me from a Distinguished Marksman sho swears by this trick as being just as effective as using a guide pin. If it doesn't work out, the JB Weld can be removed and the sight can be pinned later.
The JB Weld was also used to build a pillar up below the rear takedown lug to remove all play between the upper and lower receiver.
Want to see how you and your Mk12 clone/middy/SBR perform at 600 yards? Take the optic and suppressor (if you have them) off and enter the Match rifle category.
Hell, let him keep all the doo-dads on his rifle (ACOG or MR/T, compensator, and suppressor). 20 offhand is still 20 offhand. The rapids are still the rapids. 600 is still 600.
There are several clubs I've shot with that will let any newbie shoot what he already owns.
Hi new guy here, but I have been shooting NRA/CMP High Power for 18 years. I shoot Service Rifle class. The rifle I currently shoot is something I built myself. It's a Rock River Arms Lower, RRA 2-stage trigger tuned by White Oak, A RRA upper that has been pinned by White Oak, a Krieger 1X7" twist Stainless Steel barrel, with Wylde chamber. It has a Les Baer bolt carrier, Tubbs CWS, and a Compass Lake free float tube. I have 1/4 X 1/4 MOA rear sight with .038 rear aperture, .040 front post. It's a good 1/2 MOA rifle with my loads. I shoot 75gr HPBT match, in Remington Brass, Vitha N 140 for 200 and 300 yards, and 80gr A-MAX in Lapua brass, Vitha N 540 for 500/600 yards and 1000 yards.
I'm a Master in across the course 200 yards to 600 yards, and an Expert at Long Range 1000 yards with an AR15A2 Service Rifle.
I have to say that many non NRA/CMP shooters don't under stand that this format was set up by the military to teach marksmanship. I didn't say fighting, I said marksmanship. I say that a well rounded shooter in the martial arts, should had good basic marksmanship down. This is the way to do it. If you can't shoot well with iron sights in all kinds of wind conditions at rangers out to 600 yards, how do you really think you will do?
I'm not bad mouthing the U.S. Army, but they have found out that their 300 yard training is/was lacking. Yeah sure most fighting takes pace at under 300 yards, but when you need to engage the enemy at longer ranges what are you going to do?
I say to everybody, shoot in some High Power matches, it will teach you a lot. It will teach you a lot about yourself, ballistics, and your weapon. It will if you stay with it teach you to watch the weather, how the wind, rain, cold, heat, mirage plays with how you see the target and how and where the bullet hits. A skilled marksman is a skilled marksman, and that is some one that can clean a 300 yard target in 70 seconds with a 200-18X. Remember, on the range as in a gun fight only hits count, anything else in noise and rubbish.
AR-n-Ky
Smuckatelli
06-22-09, 11:59
From what i can tell, its an M4, not some custom A2. Granted - the M4 is a carbine, not a rifle. Since they have refused to to create "service carbine" - are active duty/recent vets simply not welcome unless we go out and purchase some civilian match rifle & take up handloading? Maybe I am missing something here - but what makes this game "service" related?
Go to your unit armor and ask him or her to put an A2 or A1 stock on your M4 and you're good to go. The rules for 2009 don't allow a collapsable stock. You can compete with a M4.
stanlyonjr
06-22-09, 12:12
Go to your unit armor and ask him or her to put an A2 or A1 stock on your M4 and you're good to go. The rules for 2009 don't allow a collapsable stock. You can compete with a M4.
Whats interesting is that CMP allows an A4 collapsible stock this year to accommodate shooters of smaller stature. Maybe the NRA will in 2010.
Smuckatelli
06-22-09, 13:04
Whats interesting is that CMP allows an A4 collapsible stock this year to accommodate shooters of smaller stature. Maybe the NRA will in 2010.
No collapsibles with the CMP this year, maybe next, check out #10:
6.2.3 U.S. Rifle, Caliber 5.56mm, M16
The rifle must be an M16A2 or M16A4 rifle issued by the U.S. Armed Forces or a commercial rifle of the same type and caliber. M16 rifles must be chambered for the 5.56mm cartridge and comply with the following specifi c requirements:
(1) Modification to make automatic fire impossible without removing, replacing or altering parts is allowed.
(2) Metal or synthetic (polymer) magazines with standard service 20 or 30-round box magazine dimensions must be attached during the firing of all courses and in all positions. A 10-round magazine with the same external dimensions as a standard service 20-round box magazine may be used. A dummy magazine with a ramp for single shot loading may be used if this magazine has the same external dimensions as the standard service 20-round box magazine. Standard service 20-round magazines are straight, without curves. Standard service 30-round magazines are curved.
(3) The front sight post may be fixed or lockable.
(4) To stabilize the rear sight assembly, it may be fitted with one or more pins extending down into the receiver or with stabilizing projections extending forward no more than 5/16” into the top groove of the carrying handle.
(5) The flash suppressor and bayonet lug may be removed or the rifle may be manufactured without a flash suppressor or bayonet lug. Barrel length may not exceed 20 inches, as measured to the end of the rifling in the barrel.
(6) A screw may be inserted in the back radius of the pistol grip where it joins the lower receiver. This screw may extend into the rear lock-down lug of the upper receiver for the purpose of securing the upper and lower receivers. The screw head may not protrude above the original surface of the receiver. Both ends of the original takedown pin must remain in place so that the original outside confi guration is not changed.
(7) Upper receivers may not be changed during the firing of any match.
(8) An external device may be attached to prevent selector lever movement to the auto position.
(9) The front sling swivel may be attached to the front ferrule of the handguard or front tip of the “tube” (in the case of a floating barrel system) as long as it remains in the 6 o’clock position and is no more than ½ inch from the original sling swivel location.
(10) The M16A1 rifle (short) butt stock or the commercial equivalent may be installed on an M16A2 or M16A4 rifle. Collapsible stocks of the type used on M16 M4/M4A1 Carbines are not permitted.
(11) If an M16 A4 or a commercial equivalent rifl e with a removable carry handle is used, the rifle must be equipped with a carry handle and rear sight that has the same confi guration as the carry handle on the M16 A2 (height, type of sight, etc.). No optical sights are permitted. The carry handle must be attached to the rifl e in such a way that the location of the handle and rear sight corresponds with the carry handle and sight location on the M16 A2. A standard M16 front sight must be fixed in the same location as it is on the M16 A2. A standard handguard or tube without an accessory rail must be used. The sling swivel can attach to the front ferrule of the handguard or the front tip of the tube in accordance with Rule 6.2.3 (10). A standard butt stock from an M16 A1 rifle may be fi tted to either the
M16 A2 or M16 A4.
http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/Rulebook.pdf
stanlyonjr
06-22-09, 13:31
No collapsibles with the CMP this year, maybe next, check out #10:
6.2.3 U.S. Rifle, Caliber 5.56mm, M16
The rifle must be an M16A2 or M16A4 rifle issued by the U.S. Armed Forces or a commercial rifle of the same type and caliber. M16 rifles must be chambered for the 5.56mm cartridge and comply with the following specifi c requirements:
(1) Modification to make automatic fire impossible without removing, replacing or altering parts is allowed.
(2) Metal or synthetic (polymer) magazines with standard service 20 or 30-round box magazine dimensions must be attached during the firing of all courses and in all positions. A 10-round magazine with the same external dimensions as a standard service 20-round box magazine may be used. A dummy magazine with a ramp for single shot loading may be used if this magazine has the same external dimensions as the standard service 20-round box magazine. Standard service 20-round magazines are straight, without curves. Standard service 30-round magazines are curved.
(3) The front sight post may be fixed or lockable.
(4) To stabilize the rear sight assembly, it may be fitted with one or more pins extending down into the receiver or with stabilizing projections extending forward no more than 5/16” into the top groove of the carrying handle.
(5) The flash suppressor and bayonet lug may be removed or the rifle may be manufactured without a flash suppressor or bayonet lug. Barrel length may not exceed 20 inches, as measured to the end of the rifling in the barrel.
(6) A screw may be inserted in the back radius of the pistol grip where it joins the lower receiver. This screw may extend into the rear lock-down lug of the upper receiver for the purpose of securing the upper and lower receivers. The screw head may not protrude above the original surface of the receiver. Both ends of the original takedown pin must remain in place so that the original outside confi guration is not changed.
(7) Upper receivers may not be changed during the firing of any match.
(8) An external device may be attached to prevent selector lever movement to the auto position.
(9) The front sling swivel may be attached to the front ferrule of the handguard or front tip of the “tube” (in the case of a floating barrel system) as long as it remains in the 6 o’clock position and is no more than ½ inch from the original sling swivel location.
(10) The M16A1 rifle (short) butt stock or the commercial equivalent may be installed on an M16A2 or M16A4 rifle. Collapsible stocks of the type used on M16 M4/M4A1 Carbines are not permitted.
(11) If an M16 A4 or a commercial equivalent rifl e with a removable carry handle is used, the rifle must be equipped with a carry handle and rear sight that has the same confi guration as the carry handle on the M16 A2 (height, type of sight, etc.). No optical sights are permitted. The carry handle must be attached to the rifl e in such a way that the location of the handle and rear sight corresponds with the carry handle and sight location on the M16 A2. A standard M16 front sight must be fixed in the same location as it is on the M16 A2. A standard handguard or tube without an accessory rail must be used. The sling swivel can attach to the front ferrule of the handguard or the front tip of the tube in accordance with Rule 6.2.3 (10). A standard butt stock from an M16 A1 rifle may be fi tted to either the
M16 A2 or M16 A4.
http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/Rulebook.pdf
I must have miss read it. My mistake. Although I agree that A4 stocks should be allowed. If for any reason than just the reason I stated as well as them being used in combat.
Submariner
06-23-09, 09:22
Colt made a stock labeled with "CS" which has A2 materials but A1 length. They work quite well, especially of those of shorter stature.
Hello group, 600 yards, what power scope do you use? just kidding. I was privileged
to attend the East Coast Navy Match on and off from 1995-2004. This is the most demanding style of shooting. Shooting in 90 plus degree weather with a shooting jacket and one or two sweat shirts on.
Many clubs still have S/R clinic's with M-1 rifles (30-06) fired at 100 to 600yds. Give service rifle a try. Walking off the 500/600 yard line with a score of 190 out of 200 is very rewarding.
Be Safe, Mark :cool:
ELFEGO BACA
08-11-09, 20:50
I have been shooting in NRA High Power Rifle Competition for over 10 years.
I started with a M1A then progressed to a Colt HBAR.
I now have graduated to a RRA National Match Rifle.
Elfego:p
Combat_Diver
08-16-09, 07:19
During the All Army Match at Benning in 05-06', AMU allowed M4 to be used and also for the EIC match. I had just returned from Iraq and shot the match with my issued M4A1.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/sitting02_RZ.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/9809george_300yd_prone3_RZ.JPG
And three days before the Match I was training with my rifle but not on a range.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/0402.jpg
Came back again from Iraq (thrid trip with the same M4) but used a AMU loaner M16A2 for the 06' match. I would love to competite with a M4 in Service Rifle for that is what I carried from 95-08' and for four deployments to Iraq. I know I'm at a disadvantage with a shorter weapon but that's what I'm issued and want to know my equipment and abilities. Just recieved this email back from CMP today.
Thank you for submitting your recommendation that the M4 Carbine be accepted as an approved rifle for Service Rifle shooting that is governed by CMP Competition Rules. The CMP has received a few similar recommendations and we will take a look at these recommendations when the next edition of the CMP Competition Rules is produced. Most of these recommendations have focused on the need to have a shorter butt-stock to accommodate younger shooters who find even the A1 butt-stock too long.
We appreciate your thoughts and work on this issue and will be taking a careful look at it.
Gary Anderson
Gary Anderson
Director of Civilian Marksmanship
Email: dcm@odcmp.com
CMP website - http://www.odcmp.com
On-line magazine - http://www.odcmp.org
CD
Combat_Diver
08-16-09, 07:24
Here is my letter
CMP,
I would like to ask for a change in the regulation for the addition of allowing the M4 Carbine to compete in CMP/National Matches. The M4 and M4A1 Carbines were adopted up the US Army in 1994 and is currently the main weapon issued to combat units and units currently in OEF and OIF. It is also issued to basic trainee soldiers at Fort Benning, Ga.
I've competed with the M4A1 during the All Army Match at Fort Benning in 05' when I was still on active duty (same M4 I carried in battle many times). It is tougher and more of a challenge for me as a shooter and offers no advantages. The main reason wanting to compete with the weapon is that was my issued weapon from 1995-2008 when I retired and have used it in combat numerous times (same with the M16A2/M203 during Desert Storm). How many combat veterans are there that have carried the M4? And isn't the best saleing rifle since President Obama took office?
I would suggest the following modifications to the M16 rules be adjusted to reflect the M4.
6.2.3 (modified) U.S. Rifle, Caliber 5.56mm, M4 The rifle must be an M4 or M4A1 rifle issued by the U.S. Armed Forces or a commercial rifle of the same type and caliber. M4 rifles must be chambered for the 5.56mm cartridge and comply with the following specific requirements:
(1) Modification to make automatic fire impossible without removing, replacing or altering parts is allowed.
(2) Metal or synthetic (polymer) magazines with standard service 20 or 30-round box magazine dimensions must be attached during the firing of all courses and in all positions. A 10-round magazine with the same external dimensions as a standard service 20-round box magazine may be used. A dummy magazine with a ramp for single shot loading may be used if this magazine has the same external dimensions as the standard service 20-round box magazine. Standard service 20-round magazines are straight, without curves. Standard service 30-round magazines are curved.
(3) The front sight post may be fixed or lockable.
(4) To stabilize the rear sight assembly, it may be fitted with one or more pins extending down into the receiver or with stabilizing projections extending forward no more than 5/16” into the top groove of the carrying handle.
(5) The flash suppressor and bayonet lug may be removed or the rifle may be manufactured without a flash suppressor or bayonet lug. Barrel length may not exceed 16 inches, as measured to the end of the rifling in the barrel. (barrels can be mil spec 14.5" with Short Barrel Rifle paperwork from BATFE or 14.5" and 14.7" with pinned long flash hinder or 16" with or without flash hinder. This should cover all legal M4 barrel legal requirements)
(6) A screw may be inserted in the back radius of the pistol grip where it joins the lower receiver. This screw may extend into the rear lock-down lug of the upper receiver for the purpose of securing the upper and lower receivers.
The screw head may not protrude above the original surface of the receiver. Both ends of the original takedown pin must remain in place so that the original outside configuration is not changed.
(7) Upper receivers may not be changed during the firing of any match.
(8) An external device may be attached to prevent selector lever movement to the auto position.
(9) The front sling swivel may be attached to the front ferrule of the handguard or front tip of the “tube” (in the case of a floating barrel system) as long as it remains in the 6 o’clock position and is no more than ½ inch from the original sling swivel location. (since the M4 is issued with a side sling swivel, that should be allow also)
(10) The M16A1 rifle (short) butt stock or the commercial equivalent as installed on an M16A2 or M16A4 rifle are not allow. Collapsible stocks of the type used on M4/M4A1 Carbines are permitted and maybe pinned according to state law.
(11) If an M4/M4A1 or a commercial equivalent rifle with a removable carry handle is used, the rifle must be equipped with a carry handle and rear sight that has the same configuration as the carry handle on the M4 (fixed carrying handle) (height, type of sight, etc.). No optical sights are permitted. The carry handle must be attached to the rifle in such a way that the location of the handle and rear sight corresponds with the carry handle and sight location on the M16A2/M4. A standard M4 front sight must be fixed in the same location as it is on the M16A2/M4. A standard handguard or tube without an accessory rail must be used. The sling swivel can attach to the front ferrule of the handguard or the front tip of the tube in accordance with Rule 6.2.3 or side sling swivel may be attached to the side of the barrel.
(10). A standard collapsible butt stock from an M4/M4A1 rifle may be fitted to either the
M4/M4A1 or pinned.
(12) If an M4/M4A1 or a commercial equivalent rifle with a removable carry handle is used, the rifle must be equipped with a carry handle and rear sight that has the same configuration as the carry handle on the M16A2/M4. No optical sights are permitted. The carry handle must be attached to the rifle in such a way that the sight radius remains the same as the M4/M4A1 rifle.
A higher front sight base (.060”) or lower rear sight base/ carry handle
(.060”) may be used to allow proper zeroing of the rifle from 100 to 1,000 yards.
(13) A DVC-T-30 or commercial equivalent case deflector may be attached.
Lastly, I have requested this several times over the years when deployed to Iraq. Now, I am currently in Afghanistan still serving along side soldiers as a contractor.
Thank you,
CD
I shoot both CMP and NRA service rifle matches. I shoot up at River Bend Gun Club in Dawsonville, GA and occassionally at Ft. Benning and Gordon.
M1As, 03a3s, M1 Garands, and ARs. I shoot 'em all.
CaptainDooley
01-09-11, 09:36
I observed a service rifle competition at the range my wife and I decided to join yesterday - it was really my first exposure to the sport. I was disappointed to learn that my stock 6920 would not be allowed to compete in the service rifle competition, despite being what the majority of the Army is issued now. For some reason it would be considered a "match grade" rifle which I found laughable. Sad thing is, the guy told me before I even mentioned what I would want to shoot that they pretty much make fun of anyone who doesn't get distinguished in service rifle before moving on to match...
I don't care to be ultra competitive (especially after hefting the 18# rifle the guy showing us around uses), but would like the experience of shooting the matches to learn more about marksmanship. Unfortunately all of my rifles are 16" M-4 patterned rifles and those are the ones I'd like to learn to shoot, not some tricked out gun that only looks like an M16. The thing is, since they use smaller targets for the longer ranges, as they don't have a 600 yd/m range, I don't think I'd do terrible... Guess I'll just check the rules every year to see if they've changed to include the actual current service rifle.
I am.
I'm surprised I haven't seen this thread before :D
I observed a service rifle competition at the range my wife and I decided to join yesterday - it was really my first exposure to the sport. I was disappointed to learn that my stock 6920 would not be allowed to compete in the service rifle competition, despite being what the majority of the Army is issued now. For some reason it would be considered a "match grade" rifle which I found laughable. Sad thing is, the guy told me before I even mentioned what I would want to shoot that they pretty much make fun of anyone who doesn't get distinguished in service rifle before moving on to match...
I don't care to be ultra competitive (especially after hefting the 18# rifle the guy showing us around uses), but would like the experience of shooting the matches to learn more about marksmanship. Unfortunately all of my rifles are 16" M-4 patterned rifles and those are the ones I'd like to learn to shoot, not some tricked out gun that only looks like an M16. The thing is, since they use smaller targets for the longer ranges, as they don't have a 600 yd/m range, I don't think I'd do terrible... Guess I'll just check the rules every year to see if they've changed to include the actual current service rifle.
Service Rifle is indeed a very specific category but you're supposed to be able to shoot anything else in the Match Rifle CATEGORY.
That Match Director should get a whupping.
I agree the M4 as-is should be allowed in the Service Rifle category. There is no competitive advantage over an A2 so it should be fine to add.
CaptainDooley
01-09-11, 09:56
Service Rifle is indeed a very specific category but you're supposed to be able to shoot anything else in the Match Rifle CATEGORY.
That Match Director should get a whupping.
Oh, I'm sure he'd allow it - but right before I mentioned what I had he told me they ridiculed anyone who didn't shoot service rifle and achieve distinguished before moving on to match rifle. I figure I've got too much going on to purposefully engage in something that leads to ridicule. That's okay though, they have IDPA, so I'll likely just get involved with that.
stanlyonjr
01-09-11, 10:01
No worries Cap. I shoot service rifle matches during our season here in Oregon. When I first started I shot my 6920 the first half of the season because I could not afford a full blown custom service rifle. From what I have seen there are two types of guys and gals that go to these matches. First there are the what I call "rifle snobs" who shot well and if your not in there level of shooting they will have nothing to do with you and are basically a real pain in the butt to shoot with IMO. Then there are guys like me. Who go out to enjoy the time in the outdoors and shoot to have fun. Those are the guys I like to shoot with. I still bring my tricked out 6920 sometime just to tick off the snobs. I shoot it with my Aimpoint and 3x. I do this because there no where else I can shoot the 6920 at real 600 yard targets. Of course the score does not count but who cares. Its amazing how well the 6920 can shoot.
Anyway the point is just go out there and have fun and ignore the snobs!! Be advised if you do choose to build a custom rifle be prepared to spend time figuring out what bullet/powder combo shoots best in you rifle because there all different. To me thats half the fun. If you have any questions please ask as I would be happy to answer them or direct you to the best answer.
Stan
There are matches aplenty out there. Quit bellayaching and go shoot.
If they don't allow your carbine as a service rifle shoot it in match rifle class -- you can keep your rails and ACOGS, ray guns, whatever. You're only shooting against YOUR class (i.e., "I have no classification so I'm shooting as a Master." Shoot three matches and NRA has your scores and will send you a Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert, etc., card. From then on you're only shooting against guys in your class. If you're smoking them you're bumped up).
True, National Match Course guns are worked on. Dependability is also critical (no one wants to lose points for a stoppage or malfunction).
It is open to anyone.
Fancy gear NOT required. These are the Army Championships. The Navy championships are open to ANY walk-ons (including civilians if you can get on base with a service or retired military shooter).
http://www.odcmp.com/Photos/08/AllArmy/dsc01005_std.jpg
http://www.odcmp.com/Photos/08/AllArmy/dsc01053_std.jpg
http://www.odcmp.com/Photos/08/AllArmy/dsc_5929_std.jpg
http://www.odcmp.com/Photos/08/AllArmy/dsc00944_std.jpg
http://www.odcmp.com/Photos/08/AllArmy/dsc00963_std.jpg
A lot is up to the match director. You would still be in the match rifle class if using anything besides a 20" AR.
You could perform really well on the reduced targets, but an M4 at 600 yards would embarass you. Not only is velocity lost, but your iron sight radius is 4" shorter and that makes a huge difference. A little fuzzy at 600 yards is in the 7 ring.
To top it off they are too loud as well. I hope they don't allow shorties as they suck for the distance and are uncompetitive in general.
There are matches aplenty out there. Quit bellayaching and go shoot.
If they don't allow your carbine as a service rifle shoot it in match rifle class -- you can keep your rails and ACOGS, ray guns, whatever. You're only shooting against YOUR class (i.e., "I have no classification so I'm shooting as a Master." Shoot three matches and NRA has your scores and will send you a Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert, etc., card. From then on you're only shooting against guys in your class. If you're smoking them you're bumped up).
True, National Match Course guns are worked on. Dependability is also critical (no one wants to lose points for a stoppage or malfunction).
It is open to anyone.
Fancy gear NOT required. These are the Army Championships. The Navy championships are open to ANY walk-ons (including civilians if you can get on base with a service or retired military shooter).
http://www.odcmp.com/Photos/08/AllArmy/dsc01005_std.jpg
http://www.odcmp.com/Photos/08/AllArmy/dsc01053_std.jpg
http://www.odcmp.com/Photos/08/AllArmy/dsc_5929_std.jpg
http://www.odcmp.com/Photos/08/AllArmy/dsc00944_std.jpg
http://www.odcmp.com/Photos/08/AllArmy/dsc00963_std.jpg
nice!
the only 'tactical' gear you even really need is the 'parade' sling. I was amazed at how much stability it added. I'm talking rock solid. In fact I shoot tighter groups with the sling than with a bipod. Maybe there is some trick to the bipod. I did try preloading it against something ..........
CaptainDooley
01-09-11, 11:53
There are matches aplenty out there. Quit bellayaching and go shoot.
If they don't allow your carbine as a service rifle shoot it in match rifle class -- you can keep your rails and ACOGS, ray guns, whatever. You're only shooting against YOUR class (i.e., "I have no classification so I'm shooting as a Master." Shoot three matches and NRA has your scores and will send you a Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert, etc., card. From then on you're only shooting against guys in your class. If you're smoking them you're bumped up).
True, National Match Course guns are worked on. Dependability is also critical (no one wants to lose points for a stoppage or malfunction).
It is open to anyone.
Fancy gear NOT required. These are the Army Championships. The Navy championships are open to ANY walk-ons (including civilians if you can get on base with a service or retired military shooter).
I'm not really trying to bellyache - I just don't know anything about this style competition and was a little perplexed that an actual service-issued weapon (or a close civilian proximation of it) wasn't allowed in the Service Rifle category. I probably will throw a parade sling on it and just shoot what I own. I don't feel like plunking down a crap load of money on something only for competition, so that's what I'll do.
Oh, I'm sure he'd allow it - but right before I mentioned what I had he told me they ridiculed anyone who didn't shoot service rifle and achieve distinguished before moving on to match rifle. I figure I've got too much going on to purposefully engage in something that leads to ridicule. That's okay though, they have IDPA, so I'll likely just get involved with that.
He sounds confused between Match Rifle and Match Category though.
Anyone else in that group that was helpful?
The club I regularly shoot allows just about anything. They just place the shooter in the appropriate category.
Heck we have loaner rifles, spotting scopes, mats, jackets, even ammo lol for those who have nothing at all!
I brought only factory ammo to my first match (reduced 100yd match) lol.
CaptainDooley
01-09-11, 12:05
I'm sure the confusion is on my end - again I know almost nothing other than what I was told yesterday and if there's a difference between Match Category and Match Rifle, then I don't know it and likely messed up what he was saying.
He sounds confused between Match Rifle and Match Category though.
Anyone else in that group that was helpful?
The club I regularly shoot allows just about anything. They just place the shooter in the appropriate category.
Heck we have loaner rifles, spotting scopes, mats, jackets, even ammo lol for those who have nothing at all!
I brought only factory ammo to my first match (reduced 100yd match) lol.
I observed a service rifle competition at the range my wife and I decided to join yesterday - it was really my first exposure to the sport. I was disappointed to learn that my stock 6920 would not be allowed to compete in the service rifle competition, despite being what the majority of the Army is issued now. For some reason it would be considered a "match grade" rifle which I found laughable. Sad thing is, the guy told me before I even mentioned what I would want to shoot that they pretty much make fun of anyone who doesn't get distinguished in service rifle before moving on to match...
I don't care to be ultra competitive (especially after hefting the 18# rifle the guy showing us around uses), but would like the experience of shooting the matches to learn more about marksmanship. Unfortunately all of my rifles are 16" M-4 patterned rifles and those are the ones I'd like to learn to shoot, not some tricked out gun that only looks like an M16. The thing is, since they use smaller targets for the longer ranges, as they don't have a 600 yd/m range, I don't think I'd do terrible... Guess I'll just check the rules every year to see if they've changed to include the actual current service rifle.
When looking at either CMP or NRA service rifle think NASCAR. While they did not seem to take a liking to your 6920 go ahead and take it out and give it a try. I would suggest a 200yd walk and paste to get a feel of it before going to a full across the course match. Sight alignement and trigger control are the same on either the NASCAR guns or the box stock guns. There are advantages to shooting DCM style matches but there is also a hindrance to it. You get spoiled by nice triggers.
Dan
HelloLarry
01-17-11, 09:50
CMIIW, but I believe that NRA competition now has a class called "Tactical Rifle" for across-the-course shooting that allows the use of optics.
So, you can bring your M4 & ACOG or whatever and shoot in that class.
CMP? Well, you are still out of luck.
I've been shooting service rifle on and off since 1987. If you're military, many states have what's called The Adjutant General's (TAG) match. The leg match is open to all military service members, and you can earn points towards the distinguished rifle and pistol badges. The NG regions host the MAC matches. All leg matches are open matches, all services are welcome. In the military leg matches it's either an M16 or M4 with iron sights. The CMP run matches are full sized AR15 only, no M4 type rifles, and iron sights. Civilian CMP matches allow match grade barrels, triggers, and sights. An issue M16 is not going to shoot up to standard at 600 yards.
Here's a couple of photos from a NY TAG match.
The targets from 300 yards.
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/3585/img0318fa.jpg
Prone from 300 yards.
http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/5021/img0321v.jpg
Kneeling at 200 Yards
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9743/img0325lo.jpg
Quite possibly the oldest rifle I've ever seen at a combat match.
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/1913/img0310de.jpg
300 yard targets from the zeroing stage. Some M16's are capable of sub MOA accuracy at 300 yards with M855 ammo.
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9497/img0320o.jpg
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/3442/img0319w.jpg
Smuckatelli
02-01-11, 10:46
Just got this in yesterday's email News Letter:
CMP Approves Two Aiming Aids for use in Service Rifle Competition - The CMP has now approved two commercial rear sight inserts for use in Service Rifle competitions. The rectangular rear aperture insert produced by ShootingSight LLC of Cincinnati, Ohio (http://www.shootingsight.com/) and the SR MicroSight produced by Stallings Ma¬chine of Senoia, Georgia (http://www.auburnscouts.com/stallingsmachine/index.htm) are now legal for use in CMP-sanctioned Service Rifle matches beginning with the 2011 shooting season. Read the complete Press Re¬lease at http://www.odcmp.org/0111/StatementAimingAids.pdf.
I would never look down my nose at any form of rifle competition, they all require you to master the firearm in the many firing positions that
are required, trigger control, shooting in changing conditions, wind doping ect ect. Shooting is shooting you can learn something in every
discipline you thought you understood.
High Power is an excellent way to learn and master the basics of rifle
competition that when mastered can serve you well in other disciplines.
Smuckatelli
02-14-11, 09:52
A lot is up to the match director. You would still be in the match rifle class if using anything besides a 20" AR.
You could perform really well on the reduced targets, but an M4 at 600 yards would embarass you. Not only is velocity lost, but your iron sight radius is 4" shorter and that makes a huge difference. A little fuzzy at 600 yards is in the 7 ring.
To top it off they are too loud as well. I hope they don't allow shorties as they suck for the distance and are uncompetitive in general.
The 6920 is allowed to be used in the service rifle competitions. What isn't allowed is the collapsable stock. My daughter's first competition week was at Camp Butner in june 09, she ran my 6920 that the Marines put an A2 stock on for the competition. This is allowable for Service Rifle competition.
The link leads to detail on Butner from last year:
http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/easternjrhpclinic.htm
The attached picture is the 6920 with the A2 stock on it. About midway through the 09 season I bought her a RRA NMA4.
sixgun-symphony
03-05-11, 03:00
I used to train with the marksmanship team of the WA Army Guard. I look forward to resume training when I get back from this deployment.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/Sixgun_Symphony44-40/storefront015.jpg
Match Grade M-14 rifle issued to me at the time.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/Sixgun_Symphony44-40/storefront012.jpg
My buddies getting set up.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/Sixgun_Symphony44-40/storefront006.jpg
600yd line at the KD range on Ft. Lewis.
Oh, yes, one final thing. These matches (CMP matches and some club matches excepted) are NRA matches. If you aren’t an NRA member (a) you can’t enter these matches and (b) WTF are you doing on this forum if you don’t support the 2nd Amendment? (If you aren’t an NRA member, you DON’T support the 2nd Amendment. Want to disagree with that statement? Don’t bother. Go whine somewhere else. Try USPSA. They don't require NRA membership, and whining is tolerated – even encouraged – over there.)
That's just as ignorant of a statement as the guy saying this is a outdated useless sport.
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