View Full Version : 3Gun 180 Rule Question
In a 3Gun match when you transition from rifle to pistol and you sling rifle beside/behind you how do you achieve this without breaking the 180 rule?
Couple of things...
First, USPSA 3-gun shoots typically provide a little table for you to place the first gun on before you go to the second, so slinging isn't usually an issue. That's if they incorporate two guns into one stage at all, as many seem to just have one stage pistol, one rifle, one shotgun, with no overlap.
With that out of the way, if you are shooting in a match which includes active transitions, I wouldn't sling up behind your body anyway. I've always been taught to drop the rifle in front of me or, at most, to the support side. I personally think putting the gun behind you is a bad idea for a lot of reasons, and it would get you sent home from my matches.
We sling up in front, muzzle down, and the shooter is expected to maintain situational, and muzzle, awareness and keep control of the gun even though it's not in their hands.
Given the abject fear of loaded weapons most popular action shooting sports seem to have, it's safe to say you will not be doing any kind of transition that would require you to have a loaded long gun on your person, slung, while shooting a pistol. As rob_s said, if a COF calls for multiple guns, they will provide a "safe" area in which you can put down the long gun, bolt back, muzzle down range, before continuing.
If you're shooting something more "tactical" and less organized than USPSA 3-Gun, of course, all bets are off. All you can do is ask the match officials what they want you to do.
rubberneck
04-15-09, 11:31
In a 3Gun match when you transition from rifle to pistol and you sling rifle beside/behind you how do you achieve this without breaking the 180 rule?
Every three gun match I have attended has either had a table or a carpet lined barrel tilted to 45 degrees to put your rifle in when you hit the transition point.
rubberneck
04-15-09, 11:35
Given the abject fear of loaded weapons most popular action shooting sports seem to have....
I don't think it is fear that drives that rather the realization that in todays society one mistake could quite easily get the range closed for good. Some toolbag launches a round over the berm and it hits someones car, house or god forbid another person and it is game set and match.
We do true transitions, but if you go to unload and show clear at the end of the stage and a round flies out, you're DQ'd.
Thanks......I have my first 3Gun in 2 weeks and was brushing up on things and trying out different sling setups and it occurred to me that I typically put the rifle on SAFE and then move the rifle (when using 2point) to the support side behind mags pouches...this places muzzle aiming toward ground but definitely at 20 degree (or more angle depending on body crouch etc.) to the REAR:confused:...which makes me uncomfortable when I am behind someone doing the same who is even a Pro, but that I do not know:eek:....so I figured I had better find out what the rule/protocols are and train accordingly.
It sounds like slings are unnecessary for "most" 3Gun?
Thanks
rubberneck
04-15-09, 14:44
It sounds like slings are unnecessary for "most" 3Gun?
Thanks
For most formal matches they are. There is one match down in North Carolina that requires you to carry everything you need for the match on your person at the same time. Ammo, water and firearms. If it isn't on you you get DQ'd. That is the extreme end of the spectrum, but I have heard it is a total blast and quite funny when out of shape guys show up with 80 pounds of kit and get smoked a half hour into the match.
Full transitions was what I was expecting, but I realize that "Big Boy Rules" are probably not appropriate where you can't properly vet level of training.
Full transitions was what I was expecting, but I realize that "Big Boy Rules" are probably not appropriate where you can't properly vet level of training.
I know it's not what you're asking but...
This is exactly why we have a "New Shooter Orientation and Qualification". Essentially, we're making everyone come out and sit through an orientation and fire off a few rounds in a qualification, and 90% of the reason we do it happens in aabout 5 minutes of the 4 hours, when we have them do a transition to pistol. We do it dry first, and then we do it hot.
When we first started out we were open to the public, and the problem we had was guys buying their AR on Saturday at the gun show and then showing up at the match on Tuesday with no idea how to use the thing, let alone safely manipulate the gun and most of these types had never even heard of a transition. Now, they get to review the Qual online before the event, research whatever they don't already know, and then come out and run through it. I think the simple fact that there is a Qual scares off the majority of the know-nothings and bad-attitudes.
We're up to over 100 qualified shooters plus close to 50 qualified Rifle Safety Officers, so we have a pool that's plenty big for us to draw from.
I know it's not what you're asking but...
This is exactly why we have a "New Shooter Orientation and Qualification". Essentially, we're making everyone come out and sit through an orientation and fire off a few rounds in a qualification, and 90% of the reason we do it happens in aabout 5 minutes of the 4 hours, when we have them do a transition to pistol. We do it dry first, and then we do it hot.
When we first started out we were open to the public, and the problem we had was guys buying their AR on Saturday at the gun show and then showing up at the match on Tuesday with no idea how to use the thing, let alone safely manipulate the gun and most of these types had never even heard of a transition. Now, they get to review the Qual online before the event, research whatever they don't already know, and then come out and run through it. I think the simple fact that there is a Qual scares off the majority of the know-nothings and bad-attitudes.
We're up to over 100 qualified shooters plus close to 50 qualified Rifle Safety Officers, so we have a pool that's plenty big for us to draw from.
Well put. Let's bury the dumb idea of "big boy rules" altogether. Those "rules"
exist only in movies like Blackhawk Down ("this is my safety").
As for transitions, here is the reality:
You are the Safety Officer/Range Officer. You do not know the "shooter" or his weapon. The shooter "transitions" to pistol by essentially dropping his loaded AR to dangle at the end of a single point sling. I have a couple of questions for you:
-Are you OK with letting the shooter point a loaded gun at his foot/leg?
-Are you OK with the shooter's loaded rifle pointing at YOUR leg/foot as it dangles?
-Are you sure that the shooter placed his rifle on "safe" before dropping it to dangle on a single point? Are you even sure that his safety actually works - even if it IS on?
Frankly, most people agree on a basic safety rule that you never point any gun at anything you don't intend to shoot. You especially DO NOT WANT to point any gun at your own body or another person. Don't you think that rule is even MORE important when we are talking about an M4 that you KNOW is loaded and may or may not have the safety on while it dangles on a sling and is not in the shooter's control?
Yeah - I have been to "outlaw" 3gun shoots with transitions. I have BEEN that RO. So far, I still have my toes. But I admit that I am not at all comfortable with the situations I describe above (and have seen many times).
Transitions are "cool looking" or "tactical" and all, but don't try to convince me that they are the most safe way to run a competition.
Just to be clear, our rules state that only inoperable carbines may be slung. That means they are either unloaded or have malfunctioned in such a way as to not be able to fire.
My RSOs are taught to watch the shooter's firing hand and the chamber. We watch for cues like bolts locked to the rear, or the trigger getting mashed repeatedly with no boom, or a click (and in most cases, you can watch the shooter's muzzle dive down as they flinch). If we don't get the visual cue, we stop the shooter. Yes, we have stopped shooters before when they were actually cleared out. RSO mistakes get a reshoot, so it's typically no big deal. We have also had shooters screw up and sling a loaded gun. When they come up to unload and show clear and the round pops out, we finish clearing them out and send them on their way with a DQ for the match unless we are able to determine that the round was a "dud".
I am all for "big boy rules" and I shoot like that all the time when I either know the other shooters or have more control over them. With 150+ qualified shooters I just don't know everyone as well as I'd like, and can't be watching everyone all the time.
Well put. Let's bury the dumb idea of "big boy rules" altogether. Those "rules" exist only in movies like Blackhawk Down ("this is my safety").
Actually, the phrase was coined by certain well known instructors who have ungodly experience training shooters at all levels from beginners to the world's top LE/mil teams. They have an ability to assess a student or class and determine just what "big boy rules" means on a case-by-case basis.
The problem is that students adopt this same approach when they go back home, or worse other people simply read about it on the internet and think, "Yeah, I'm a big boy, too!"
The last time I attended a class run by "big boy rules," I was repeatedly grabbing the instructor and pointing out one of the students who liked to draw his gun and point it downrange while other students were down there pasting targets.
Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not suggesting "big boy rules" are bad. But like many things in the shooting community, 90% of the people think they're in the top 10%.
-Are you sure that the shooter placed his rifle on "safe" before dropping it to dangle on a single point? Are you even sure that his safety actually works - even if it IS on?
Actually, quite a few schools purposely teach you not to put the weapon on safe before performing a transition.
Transitions are "cool looking" or "tactical" and all, but don't try to convince me that they are the most safe way to run a competition.
Not picking nits, but the safest way to run a competition would be to use inert guns. As soon as we do anything with live firearms, we are adopting a certain amount of risk. A combination of experienced supervision, responsible behavior, and reasonable precaution tends to eliminate most errors.
I've certainly been swept during a shooter's run at a COF. I've had an "on deck" competitor draw his loaded gun and point it at me because he didn't know it was against the rules to (a) have a loaded gun or (b) point it at me. I've been downrange when the RO said "Stand By" and the buzzer went off followed by a dozen rounds whizzing in my general direction. So believe me, I appreciate that bad things can happen at matches. But I also believe you can be so safe that you create a whole new level of problems. When I ran the IDPA program at the NRA HQ Range, we switched from a cold range to a hot range format. Instantaneously, we had fewer safety problems. Why? People treat loaded guns with a lot more respect than they treat unloaded guns -- or guns they assume are unloaded.
Like it was said above the term "Big Boy Rules" is an accepted term and is not meant to insinuate that those who do not use them are Little Boys or be condescending to those not using them, but that if you are running a range (training or competition) as if all are professionals then all are expected to conduct themselves as a professional as far as weapon handling and safety are concerned. i.e step up as a professional so that the RO/Trainers do not have to babysit and can concentrate on the big picture.
The term was only meant to be directed at professionals or those vetted as having that level of training in safe weapon handling to live up to what is expected of them and not meant to be used as an elitist term.
I don't believe anyone pro or not is completely comfortable around others with guns until they know them and have time around them.
This is why I ask the question because I do not want to be "That Guy":rolleyes:
glockshooter
04-16-09, 23:39
To answer the 180 question from my point of view, in 3gun there tends to be more of a floating 180. Meaning that the 180 changes slightly depending on the stage and its layout. I have been to matches that give concessions to the 180 with a slung weapon pointing at the ground. I have shot and run squads/ matches that had both true transition (ie hot weapon), and requirements to clear the chamber prior to slinging. I have also shot matches that require you to deck your weapon with the safety on or empty chamber. I have come to understand that not every shooter has the same level of proficiency. In the perfect world I could run a invitation only match, I would have nothing but hot transitions. But the reality is that in order to allow everyone that has the desires to shoot the chance you have to limit the possibilties of a mishap. The down side of the current trend of decking/ clearing of weapons prior to transitions is it limits my chances to train and ingrain the proper techniques. Before someone says a match isn't training, my reply is any trigger time is training. I like to win, and I win my fair share but I am well aware of the difference in tactics.
Matt
Alaskapopo
04-17-09, 02:38
I don't think it is fear that drives that rather the realization that in todays society one mistake could quite easily get the range closed for good. Some toolbag launches a round over the berm and it hits someones car, house or god forbid another person and it is game set and match.
I love shooting USPSA and IDPA but their cold range rule is stupid. If you can't trust someone with a loaded gun at a match you can't trust them on the street either. I have been running hot ranges as a LEO for 7 years now. We are all adults if someone is unsafe kick them out. But don't water it down for the rest of us.
Pat
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