Need advice on using a single handgun platform.

[jeremy45]

I'm moving toward shooting 9mm Glocks only, atleast for the time being. I already have a G19 that I carry daily and would rather dedicate my time and training funds to being really good with what I have instead of buying a bunch of different guns since money is really tight right now.

That being said, I'm looking to purchase another Glock in 9mm as a back up for training classes etc. Would it be more beneficial to get another G19 or should I consider something more like a 34 or 17 to take to training classes and us on the range.

Thanks in advance,
Jeremy

[Palmguy]

I'm moving toward shooting 9mm Glocks only, atleast for the time being. I already have a G19 that I carry daily and would rather dedicate my time and training funds to being really good with what I have instead of buying a bunch of different guns since money is really tight right now.

That being said, I'm looking to purchase another Glock in 9mm as a back up for training classes etc. Would it be more beneficial to get another G19 or should I consider something more like a 34 or 17 to take to training classes and us on the range.

Thanks in advance,
Jeremy

I would get another 19. That's what I did in fact. In my opinion there isn't anything signficant that a 17/34 can do that a 19 can't. Unless you have massive hands, a 19 likely gives you a full grip. Also has sufficient capacity, sufficient barrel length/sight radius to have a "real gun" feel, and is more easily concealed. Side benefits are 100% parts/mags/holster compatibility. I know that any Glock magazine I have will work in any Glock that I happen to have in my hand as both are 19s, and I have 15- and 17-round magazines.

Just my $0.02...

[Marcus L.]

Since your intentions are to maximize your training benefit, I vote to buy another G19. That way you maintain the same gun feel, handling, and round count so that you don't do anything to screw up your muscle memory.

[ToddG]

You already know the answer to that question.

If you want to get the maximum crossover benefit from your training to what you carry in real life, train with what you carry in real life. With the G19 you've got a gun that is certainly suitable for intense training, and the small benefits that you may reap from a G17 or G34 will do nothing to improve your actual skill level.

Getting a backup G19 makes much more sense. All your holsters, accessories, and magazines will be 100% compatible between the two. If your primary breaks, you can seamlessly switch to your spare while the first one is repaired.

[jeremy45]

Thanks for all the input guys.

I was leaning that way already, I just wanted to make double sure before I bought another G19.

Thanks again,
Jeremy

[cathellsk]

Just want to add more of the same. I actually have three 19s currently, but will be getting rid of one here soon for a 17 which I haven't had in awhile. The 19 is my main carry gun so I will always have at least two of them.

[GlockWRX]

I would recommend another 19 as well. I'm going through a similar excercise myself, but on the 17 as that is what I prefer.

My guns will be the 17's, but my wife has a 19, and my daughters will end up with 19's too. All of my spare mags are 17's so they'll work in either gun.

[VooDoo6Actual]

G19 is an excellent platform.


Train, develop your muscle memory, as it takes approx. 1200-1300 reps to get your muscle memory.

"You won't rise to the occasion--you'll default to your level of training."
Barrett Tillman


-


HTH...

[jeremy45]

We'll, looks like I'll be picking up my second G19 this weekend. Having all the mags and holsters interchange will be a big plus as well as a money saver.

[Jay Cunningham]

I own two identical Glock 19's. I use these pistols in shooting schools and in competition, and they are what I carry every single day.

[Littlelebowski]

"Fear the man with one gun, he probably knows how to use it."

[LittleRedToyota]

my handgun collection consists of 3 glock 17s.

one i carry and shoot with.

one as a back-up for my carry gun and also to dry-fire with.

one lives in my BOB and is a back-up to my back-up.

i used to have a few other flavors, but all they did was collect dust...so i sold them to buy more ammo and training for the glock 17s.

unless you want to collect different handguns just because you like to collect them or because you enjoy shooting different guns, i don't see any reason to not just stick to the one that works best for you.

[Cruncher Block]

I once joked that I had a Glock 38 (Glock 19 x 2). Then Glock went and actually made a Glock 38 and it wasn't funny anymore. :(

[ROCKET20_GINSU]

I own 3 glock 9mm's: 19, 26 and 34, for me it works because the manual of arms is exactly the same on all of them, and the feel of all of them are very similar.

I like having variety as my 34 is my production gun, my 19 my typical CCW, and my 26 is my pocket gun. I am very happy with my collection and wouldn't give up any one of them. I find that If I practice with any one of them, I am still training myself to be proficient with all of them. They all have different functions so this layout works for me. I've got true grip, a vanek 2lb trigger and warren fiber optic sights on my 34 (something I would never carry), and my G19 is plain jane minus heinie straight eights and a smooth trigger.

sounds like you have a great plan, but my layout is a viable option IMO and works well for me =)

have fun!
GU

[NoBody]

Deleted.

[DacoRoman]

Great question as I am currently exactly in your boat and I'm wringing my hands on whether I should buy another G17, or a G19...I would like a G19 for easier concealability , but then I'd have to get extra mags paraphernelia for it too, whereas I have stuff for the G17 including plenty of mags. I don't have much trouble carrying the G17 IWB, but the lure of a slightly shorter grip and nose is appealing.

[mike benedict]

the G19 is the worlds best carry pistol

I would get a couple more of them

Mike

[jeremy45]

I own 3 glock 9mm's: 19, 26 and 34, for me it works because the manual of arms is exactly the same on all of them, and the feel of all of them are very similar.

I like having variety as my 34 is my production gun, my 19 my typical CCW, and my 26 is my pocket gun. I am very happy with my collection and wouldn't give up any one of them. I find that If I practice with any one of them, I am still training myself to be proficient with all of them. They all have different functions so this layout works for me. I've got true grip, a vanek 2lb trigger and warren fiber optic sights on my 34 (something I would never carry), and my G19 is plain jane minus heinie straight eights and a smooth trigger.

sounds like you have a great plan, but my layout is a viable option IMO and works well for me =)

have fun!
GU

Rocket,
Is the difference in trigger weights between your 34 and the other two noticable when you switch between them? Just out of curiosity.

[ROCKET20_GINSU]

Absolutely, the difference from my 34 to the other 2 is huge. Its much smoother, alot light, and breaks cleaner. I find that I can press thru the trigger much faster after prepping the trigger without disturbing my sight picture which makes alot easier IMO to hit at speed. and the feel is much "closer' to my 1911, very little over travel.

The stock triggers are much crisper and require just a tad more urging on to break which I consider an asset in a carry gun. I don't experience trigger freeze, I just have to be a little more patient to ensure my sight picture while firing.

If you want to give USPSA a try with a glock vanek makes a terrific trigger. but at $200 it was a hit in the piggy bank =)

GU

[John_Wayne777]

One note of caution:

Trigger control is the single most important aspect of accuracy with a handgun. It's also the most difficult aspect of shooting to retain under stress.

Having a game gun is fine and dandy...but if you're building muscle memory for that 2 pound trigger it may adversely effect your ability to use the stock Glock triggers on your other guns. Regular practice with the guns used for serious social purposes helps defray that a bit, but I would strongly encourage sticking to the same trigger on all your guns in the same family.

[jeremy45]

One note of caution:

Trigger control is the single most important aspect of accuracy with a handgun. It's also the most difficult aspect of shooting to retain under stress.

Having a game gun is fine and dandy...but if you're building muscle memory for that 2 pound trigger it may adversely effect your ability to use the stock Glock triggers on your other guns. Regular practice with the guns used for serious social purposes helps defray that a bit, but I would strongly encourage sticking to the same trigger on all your guns in the same family.

That is exactly why I haven't built a dedicated game gun. But, I was curious as to Rockets take on this issue as he is using both. If the difference is that noticable I think I would probably screw something up big time under stress, cause I'm talented like that.:D

[ROCKET20_GINSU]

One note of caution:

Trigger control is the single most important aspect of accuracy with a handgun. It's also the most difficult aspect of shooting to retain under stress.

Having a game gun is fine and dandy...but if you're building muscle memory for that 2 pound trigger it may adversely effect your ability to use the stock Glock triggers on your other guns. Regular practice with the guns used for serious social purposes helps defray that a bit, but I would strongly encourage sticking to the same trigger on all your guns in the same family.

John,

you certainly have a valid point, and I considered it myself prior to going more seriously down this gaming route, but I really enjoy shooting as a sport in addition to my professional requirements to maintain my proficiency, and I like to win :D. I still dry fire and practice on the range with my carry/service guns, just not as much as with my production gun.

From listening and watching great shooters, especially TGO I was amazed that they often slapped the trigger but still got good hits, not to say that trigger control isn't incredibly important (it is) just that if you can keep your sights aligned while pressing the trigger, it matters less how you press it. The pre travel on all my guns is the same so prepping the trigger is identical throughout, I'm just able to break the shot quicker with my game gun because their is less resistance and it doesn't disturb my sight picture as much so it requires less visual patience.

While I submit that I am not training as realistically as I can, I'm ok with that and it is fun :D and the muscle memory of grip angle, reloading procedures, manual of arms, recoil management, target transition, presentation are all very similar. Though my approach will not work for everyone. I think a much more difficult training transition would be to shoot a sub 2 lb trigger on a 1911 or Glock, then carry a j-frame or a DA pistol. In my humble experience thats a harder practice to practical, transition to make, though not impossible by any means. To me...If you're practicing trigger control and sight picture in general, your shooting in general will still improve, even on different platforms.

Stay safe
GU

[Littlelebowski]

I have to agree, I doubt that a pound or two different on trigger is going to make the difference between life and death. True, if you're a tactical purist, it's a good idea to have exactly the same trigger but I honestly think that worrying about trigger pulls is overthinking things a bit much. I'd rather be out running than worry about this stuff anyway and I'll bet the running will help me live longer anyway :D

[skyugo]

a G26 might be worth considering too. 90% parts compatibility, can use G19 mags, a bit easier to conceal. great shooter as well.

[ToddG]

Having a game gun is fine and dandy...but if you're building muscle memory for that 2 pound trigger it may adversely effect your ability to use the stock Glock triggers on your other guns.

+1 ... there are many ways to justify it to oneself, but any way you look at it, if you spend the majority of your time practicing with a gun that is easier to shoot than your carry/duty gun, you are hurting yourself. Remember the old quote about "the more we bleed in training?"


From listening and watching great shooters, especially TGO I was amazed that they often slapped the trigger but still got good hits, not to say that trigger control isn't incredibly important (it is) just that if you can keep your sights aligned while pressing the trigger, it matters less how you press it.

Rob doesn't teach people to slap their triggers, though.

When your trigger pull < the weight of the gun, you can slap the trigger all you want. As soon as the weight of the gun < your trigger pull, you will affect sight alignment when you slap the trigger.

So what you've basically said is that you're adopting & practicing a technique which will work with your competition gun, but won't work with your carry/duty gun.

That doesn't make your focus wrong per se, but be aware of it and honest with yourself about it. If you've decided that your practical skill is "good enough" and now you want to focus on winning a trophy, that's your choice.


To me...If you're practicing trigger control and sight picture in general, your shooting in general will still improve, even on different platforms.

I would have to disagree with this based on long experience. People who are outstanding behind a 3# trigger'd 1911 will often suck epically with a DA/SA gun, etc. A many-times world champion once picked up my stock SIG P229 and after dry firing it looked at me with amazement ... he couldn't believe I could hit anything with that "long and heavy" trigger.

With everything else that is going to be wrong about a fight, I don't want my pistol to be harder to shoot than I'm used to, too.

[jeremy45]

a G26 might be worth considering too. 90% parts compatibility, can use G19 mags, a bit easier to conceal. great shooter as well.


Skyugo,

I've considered going to the subcompact but they're hard for me to hold onto and I'm big enough that I can conceal a G19 without much trouble. So, I've decided not to go smaller than I have to.

Jeremy

[DacoRoman]

What is the consensus: is the concealability difference between the 19 and 17 significant enough to matter?

[User Name]

I have 3 G19's, 2 G17's and a G26. The only time I shoot the 17's is during IDPA or practicing for IDPA. I'd say get a G19. I like having two of the same gun I carry. One stays clean and loaded with defensive rounds in my range bag. While my "training" gun gets shot a lot and cleaned rarely. Remember "one is none and two is one". I have a G26 that I rarely carry. I just don't find that its size gives it that much of a concealment advantage over the G19. Which allows for a greater grip purchase, longer sight radius, more rounds etc... BTW I believe people can learn to shoot well on multiple handguns but never as well as a person who sticks to one platform.

[ToddG]

What is the consensus: is the concealability difference between the 19 and 17 significant enough to matter?

Depends completely on the size of the shooter, the method he uses for carry, and what concealment garments he wears. A very close friend of mine is about 5'6" and carries a G22 in an AIWB every day without trouble. But he's incredibly gun savvy and willing to make compromises to his mode of dress to conceal the weapon properly.

[User Name]

I agree it comes down to what your willing to wear. I am not one to dress around the gun I carry so I marginalize my ability to conceal a full size weapon. I find the G19 fits my small hands perfectly though I have seen large guys with big mits find the G19 to small. But then again they have more physical real estate to conceal a G17.

[GlockWRX]

What is the consensus: is the concealability difference between the 19 and 17 significant enough to matter?

I used to carry G23's then switched to the 17. I've found the larger frame of the 17 just as easy to conceal than a 19. The only time I've found the 19 easier is when I've worn it under an untucked polo shirt. But with a good holster you can make the 17 disappear.

I've used Bladetech, Sidearmor, and the el-cheapo Glock sport holster (the belt slide one). And believe it or not, I like the cheap Glock holster the best. It pulls the gun in tight and hides it very well. Plus it works for guns in the same frame size (i.e., it will fit the 26 to the 17L and everything in between).

[dsg2003gt]

I have 2 19s, a 17 and 34. Whilst I love the 17 and 34, I shoot my 19 much more and I carry it. It is by far by favorite Glock, although the 34 is fun as hell.

[John_Wayne777]

What is the consensus: is the concealability difference between the 19 and 17 significant enough to matter?

As Todd said, it's highly dependent upon the individual....but in my daily life, YES. The G19 is easier to hide than the G17, primarily because the length of the butt. The G19 offers less of a chance of the butt printing, especially when you are sitting down or getting up from a seated position.

When I carry in a non-permissive environment, I carry the more compact guns just because they are extra insurance. With a Raven holster I can conceal a G17 or M&P 9 beyond the ability of 95% of people to tell it's there...but I still prefer the extra bit of insurance of the M&P9C or the G19 (Or G26) give me in those circumstances where concealment is the highest priority.

[skyugo]

Skyugo,

I've considered going to the subcompact but they're hard for me to hold onto and I'm big enough that I can conceal a G19 without much trouble. So, I've decided not to go smaller than I have to.

Jeremy

cool man. i can't really do the G19 comfortably under a t-shirt. if i'm out in the woods, or going into a mcdonalds real quick it doesn't bother me, but any time i'm in a social environment i prefer the concealability of the G26.
the G19 is a great pistol though. it's my favorite of all my guns.

[ROCKET20_GINSU]

+1 ... there are many ways to justify it to oneself, but any way you look at it, if you spend the majority of your time practicing with a gun that is easier to shoot than your carry/duty gun, you are hurting yourself. Remember the old quote about "the more we bleed in training?"

Todd, I agree that it's not the "ideal" realistic training method, but my goals have changed a lot since I just returned from my last and final war, and hope never to hear another shot fired in anger. True, if I was training purely for tactical purposes it would be best to "train like you fight", however my goals are different now that I am relatively certain I will not have to go back over again. I am enjoying the "sport" of shooting much more, and find that in glock platform you can have a terrific game pistol (34) and have may similarly designed carry pistols (17,19,26).

Indeed, I know that quote and the feeling behind it well :) my preference catch phrase has been: "sweat saves blood", if you're bleeding too much in training it may be worthwhile to look into a better risk analysis :p lol

For Jeremy's purposes another G19 would probably be the best, though there are valid reasons for owning different pistols...which is what I wanted to provide input on.



When your trigger pull < the weight of the gun, you can slap the trigger all you want. As soon as the weight of the gun < your trigger pull, you will affect sight alignment when you slap the trigger.

So what you've basically said is that you're adopting & practicing a technique which will work with your competition gun, but won't work with your carry/duty gun.


I disagree with the above because I think the answer is a bit more complex. If the weight of the gun > trigger pull weight, but you slap the trigger in a motion that does not press the trigger straight to the rear you can still jerk the sights and toss the round. Just because you have a 2 lb trigger and a 3 lb gun doesn't mean that you will only apply 2 lbs to the trigger (you probably provide quite a bit more) and not upset the inertia of the 3 lb pistol, and I don't think you can slap away without consequence. For example, If you have a sympathetic contraction with your other fingers as you slap it'll still toss the round.

Actually unless the target is really really really bad body odor close, I don't slap, in competition or in past tactical situations. Though there are absolutely tactical situations where it is "ok" to slap in my humble opinion. such as if the target is within arms distance and you want to make sure you don't freeze on the trigger. slapping on a heavier trigger (gun weight > trigger pull weight) does disturb the sight picture more, but there are times where the range to target (i.e. in your face) is too close to matter and speed is more important than precision.



I would have to disagree with this based on long experience. People who are outstanding behind a 3# trigger'd 1911 will often suck epically with a DA/SA gun, etc. A many-times world champion once picked up my stock SIG P229 and after dry firing it looked at me with amazement ... he couldn't believe I could hit anything with that "long and heavy" trigger.

Yep, I completely agree with you there. Its not Ideal to practice with one gun, then carry another. In the case of two shooters of equal ability, practice and firearms skill development potential, the shooter who practices with his duty gun will be more proficient with his duty gun than a guy who practices with a different type of gun. However, for me the G34 is close enough to my carry gun and I find it a suitable compromise for my current priorities in shooting goals, and for the new low risk lifestyle I live :p. If I was practicing exclusively with an open gun in preparation for imminent combat operations that is absolutely bad decision making on my part, truth be told prior to deployments I have always shot my 92fs so that I acclimated myself to carrying my M9, though I'm much more of a glock fan.

What I meant by the practicing in general and developing general firearms skills part of my last post was that even if you shoot on another platform you still practice sight picture, not flinching, not jerking the trigger, establishing a good grip, etc. which does "help" you shoot other guns. Sure after "X" thousand 1911 rounds, that champion might not shoot your DA gun as well as you since you practice with it exclusively, but he will still know a thing or two about how important front sight focus is and how to avoid jerking the trigger due to flinching, something that a novice shooters at an indoor gun range (that scare me from time to time :D) do not.



With everything else that is going to be wrong about a fight, I don't want my pistol to be harder to shoot than I'm used to, too.

Todd, I couldn't agree with you more buddy. You are absolutely correct if you are focused purely on the tactical applications of shooting. Practice should be harder than the game, though my "fight" now a days is friendly competition with my friends at the weekend USPSA matches :D. For me, I am very comfortable doing most of my practice with my 34 then carrying my 19, same grip angle, trigger action, general "feel", manual of arms, employment procedures, etc. Sure having a 2nd of the same gun gives you more "malfunction insurance" in respect to wear and tear, but glocks have such a terrific track record and I've personally only ever broken a trigger spring. If Jeremy wants to explore a different side of the shooting equation in addition to the tactical side I don't think he would be loosing much in trying a different Glock 9mm pistol. Variety is FUN!

BTW, I really like your web site and appreciate the work you put into it as it is a terrific resource.

Stay safe,
GU

[ToddG]

Todd, I agree that it's not the "ideal" realistic training method, but my goals have changed a lot since I just returned from my last and final war, and hope never to hear another shot fired in anger.

The important thing is that you clearly understand your motivation & goals and how that will play out. You understand the decision you've made and how much (or little, as the case may be) it will impact other aspects of your performance. That puts you way ahead of most folks.


Though there are absolutely tactical situations where it is "ok" to slap in my humble opinion.

Without going into too long a tangent, I agree with this in principle. What I teach is that trigger manipulation, like visual reference, is a skill with a perfectly proper execution. But how close your execution is to "perfectly proper" can vary depending on distance, movement, target size, etc. It's like driving a car. You operate the steering wheel the exact same way whether you're making a wide turn in a huge open field or a very tight turn on a narrow road ... but the amount of precision needed in the operation changes.


truth be told prior to deployments I have always shot my 92fs so that I acclimated myself to carrying my M9, though I'm much more of a glock fan.

That puts you ahead of the curve of a lot of guys I know.


What I meant by the practicing in general and developing general firearms skills part of my last post was that even if you shoot on another platform you still practice sight picture, not flinching, not jerking the trigger, establishing a good grip, etc. which does "help" you shoot other guns.

I'd agree with most of that. But learning good trigger manipulation skills with a 2# trigger doesn't usually translate into truly great trigger manipulation skill or understanding what it takes to break shots with a 12# trigger.

I took a class from a very well known and respected firearms instructor (IPSC GM and contract instructor to various mil and gov entities) who flat out told the class that you might as well just pull through the DA shot on a SIG or Beretta and assume you'll miss because it was too hard to hit anything with that long & heavy trigger. :rolleyes:

[LittleRedToyota]

What is the consensus: is the concealability difference between the 19 and 17 significant enough to matter?

i personally do not have any issues concealing a G17. forward cant helps to offset the longer grip.

but, i agree that it will vary from person to person.

[DacoRoman]

Thanks for the responses guys.

I regularly carry my G17 IWB in a Galco Summer Comfort under a button down shirt, strong side at the 4:30 position, with a pretty aggressive forward cant as this keeps the grip more near the vertical and makes the pistol much easier to conceal (the Summer Comfort isn't great for this BTW since it tends to free pivot too much and I'm looking for a better holster). In any case I was thinking that the G19 would be nice to have (I don't like the midget grip on the G26), however when you really look at the relative dimensions of the G19 and 17, they are somewhat minute. If I didn't have the 17, I might go with two 19's, but one argument that is resonating with me is that since the size difference between them is fairly small, and I can conceal the G17 fine, I might as well get a back up G17. Tough decision though because instinctively I'd rather have a non redundant gun.

Has anyone gone with a G17 with its grip shortened to G19 specs?

Here is a pic I pilfered from another site showing the relative size difference for the purposes of this discussion.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Gun/DSC04003.jpg

[Beat Trash]

What is the consensus: is the concealability difference between the 19 and 17 significant enough to matter?

Yes and no...

The trigger, controls, ect are obviously the same, so in this aspect, it doesn't matter.

The guns feel different, to me at least, so in this aspect, it does matter.

I own both a 17 and a 19.

I own multiples of the Glock 19.

[tpd223]

I alwasy advise folks who actually carry their guns to own two of what they like to carry.

I have known cases where folks get into shootings and lose their gun to the evidence locker for more than a year.

It's a whole lot better to have another just like it in the safe than to have to go shopping, and assuming that you can even find what you are looking for.

Of course, the same goes for your gun breaking if you train hard with it.

[jeremy45]

Thanks again for everyones input. I have learned a great deal from this thread and I did pick up a second G19 on Saturday. Took it out yesterday and everything ran great.

My wife actually went with me and let me start teaching her how to shoot. I'm super excited about that! I've been trying to get her to shoot for awhile now and she hasn't showed any interest, then out of the blue she asks to come with!:D She did pretty good for her first actual "training" type outing.

[Beat Trash]

Thanks again for everyones input. I have learned a great deal from this thread and I did pick up a second G19 on Saturday. Took it out yesterday and everything ran great.

My wife is actually went with me and let me start teaching her how to shoot. I'm super excited about that! I've been trying to get her to shoot for awhile now and she hasn't showed any interest, then out of the blue she asks to come with!:D She did pretty good for her first actual "training" type outing.

I for one feel you made a wise choice. The second Glock 19 would make an excellent gun for the wife also...

[NoBody]

I for one feel you made a wise choice. The second Glock 19 would make an excellent gun for the wife also...

Ditto.