View Full Version : Guns are dangerous. Federal AE223BK Kaboom.
Derek_Connor
04-25-09, 09:14
Was shooting yesterday at an indoor range. Upper was a 12.5bbl Noveske, with 10k+ rounds already through it. KAC FH, KAC Upper, KAC URX, PMAGs.
I was shooting unsuppressed, semi-auto, with recently purchased XM193 from Recob's Target Shop (found that ammo in the popular ammo finding thread).
I was on approximately round 20-23 of a full 30 round magazine, and I pulled the trigger and felt an extreme GUSH of air on my chest/abdomen/legs. The magazine was literally SHOT out of my magwell, and the bolt was stuck.
The Upper came off the lower with ease, we eventually were able to remove the BCG out of the upper, the case was stuck to the extractor. The most unfortunate part was that half of the case is still stuck in the chamber.
No injuries, no blood, just a little dirtier than usual :) From what I've been told, this will be an easy fix.
To Summarize, after the kaboom, this is what seems have survived:
Bolt Carrier
Upper
Lower
Pmag
Bolt
What didn't survive:
Extract has been bent
o-ring blown in half
Will be calling Federal on Monday to see how to handle the rest of the ammo.
Here are some shitty pictures, im no photographer:
Upper Used:
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/5228/dsc07758large.jpg
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/756/dsc07761large.jpg
BCG Used:
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6885/dsc07760large.jpg
Bolt:
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6656/dsc07759largec.jpg
You can still see half of the case stuck in the chamber:
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/3329/dsc07753large.jpg
Bent extractor:
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/493/dsc07752large.jpg
Ruptured Case:
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6594/dsc07756large.jpg
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/7522/dsc07755large.jpg
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/153/dsc07754large.jpg
I'm now a little less happy about the 2000 rounds of XM193 I ordered last week. :x
I hope that this is one time thing, and that you're alright.
SecretAgentMan
04-25-09, 09:26
Wow. Glad you're okay. :eek:
The_War_Wagon
04-25-09, 09:33
Dittos on the "OK physically" part! :eek: Is that a recent batch of the 'black box' 193's? I've bought a few rounds of it recently, with the intentions of testing it. Now I'M not so sure... :confused:
Any ammo can malfunction and have problems. The issue is when it starts to happen with frequency.
Thanks for posting this. I'm glad that you weren't injured. Have you examined the length of the barrel for any abnormalities? Did the round before the kaboom display any difference in recoil/muzzle blast/function? That is, do you think it could have been a squib?
Any chance you have a friend with a better camera who could take some better close-up shots of the case head? Also, can you post the lot number of the XM193 involved?
Thanks,
Molon
SeriousStudent
04-25-09, 09:38
Indeed, I am glad you were not harmed!
Are you planning on reusing the bolt? Relegating it to spare status? Or letting someone do NDI testing on it?
The geek in me would be very interested in having someone like Ned Christiansen look over the bolt and inspect the chamber.
Derek_Connor
04-25-09, 09:41
Indeed, I am glad you were not harmed!
Are you planning on reusing the bolt? Relegating it to spare status? Or letting someone do NDI testing on it?
The geek in me would be very interested in having someone like Ned Christiansen look over the bolt and inspect the chamber.
Yeah, I am feeling more lucky as the day goes on. That could have been alot worse.
Here is the ammo I was shooting:
(http://www.recobstargetshop.com/browse.cfm/4,2341.html)
I am going to send it to steve to get the case out. I was planning on scrapping the bolt, but now that you said it, having it sent out for testing would be interesting.
Derek_Connor
04-25-09, 09:44
Thanks for posting this. I'm glad that you weren't injured. Have you examined the length of the barrel for any abnormalities? Did the round before the kaboom display any difference in recoil/muzzle blast/function? That is, do you think it could have been a squib?
Any chance you have a friend with a better camera who could take some better close-up shots of the case head? Also, can you post the lot number of the XM193 involved?
Thanks,
Molon
Molon,
Good questions - I did no more than a bore scope after the incident, couldn't find anything "out of the norm"
Now that you ask, I do remember the couple of rounds before that having less recoil? But I also remember readjusting my feet as well for a wider stance (lanes are small in this range) so it could have been just myself feeling more stable? Hard to say with any certainty.
I'll get some better pictures of the ammo and case head..
Can you post the lot number of the ammo?
Make sure the barrel extension is not cracked, it may not be obvious until you take the barrel out of the upper.
I've never felt the need to High Pressure test my own bolts! You really are a do-it-yourself kind of guy, huh?
:D
Glad your OK! I'm interested to see how everything fares after inspection, and what Federal has to say!
-RD62
RogerinTPA
04-25-09, 12:15
I'm glad things didn't go sideways and you're ok bro. Hope you can finagle a new upper out of this.
Derek_Connor
04-25-09, 13:40
Sorry for the delay, after I went through this ammo, to my dismay, it does NOT have a Lake City stamp on the casing. I'll get some pictures here soon.
Something is fishy, as Recob's had informed me lastnight after I spoke to him that this was indeed, "XM193" and not "PD", etc..
And to be clear, Noveske didn't assemble this upper for me, so they have nothing to do w/this situation.
This barrel/upper receiver have a shit ton of rounds through it, all knowing that that little lip had existed. I doubt the receiver feedramps has anything to do w/this situation though based on the amount of rounds i've had through this combo. But ya never know..
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4719/dsc07762large.jpg
Camera sucks, cannot get a good picture of the head stamp.
On the top it is ––––-" F C"
on the bottom it is ––––––" 223 o REM "
while im no ammo buff, that doesn't sound like real 193 to me.
FC is Federal Cartridge. There is a slight chance that you had a headspace issue since you have said that there are a shit ton of rounds through the upper and barrel. I would clean the weapon and see if you can get a headspace gage and check it.
That being said it is more than likely an ammo problem. Like I said ANY ammo can have issues. Military ammo gets reclassed quite frequently due to malfunctions or related issues.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-25-09, 16:33
What usually happens in cases like this? Does the Ammo manufacturer pay to rebuild the upper? Do they send it off to a third party to determine what went wrong? Does it depend on manufacturer what kind of service you get?
Derek_Connor
04-25-09, 16:34
FC is Federal Cartridge. There is a slight chance that you had a headspace issue since you have said that there are a shit ton of rounds through the upper and barrel. I would clean the weapon and see if you can get a headspace gage and check it.
Roger, will report back on the results.
That being said it is more than likely an ammo problem. Like I said ANY ammo can have issues. Military ammo gets reclassed quite frequently due to malfunctions or related issues.
Agreed that any ammo can have issues, if I can come out of this with a still decently used barrel and just have to up the cost of a new bolt, i'll be extremely happy.
Derek,
Glad you're alright brother.
Keep us updated on the status of everything.
Will be interesting to hear what the ammo manufacturer has to say.
Lake City XM193 has the heat marking where the brass necks down, at least all the Federal XM193 and white box Lake City XM193 I have does. Why does that not have the typical heat discolor I'm used to seeing?
Just to admit, I do not know what the heat mark is from or why it is there, I just know I see it evertime I open my ammo. When I look at the picture a few posts up, I instantly noticed that the brass is a constant color and not the same as what I am used to holding/seeing.
Larry
beaker1013
04-25-09, 17:39
Glad to hear you're okay and let's hope it's just the bolt that's screwed. Keep us posted.
HiggsBoson
04-25-09, 18:19
Derek, glad you're okay. Was this your first KB? I hope I will fare as well when I have a similar failure, which I assume is only a matter of time since I shoot a fair bit and use lots of different ammo of occasionally dubious provenance.
Just to admit, I do not know what the heat mark is from or why it is there, I just know I see it evertime I open my ammo. When I look at the picture a few posts up, I instantly noticed that the brass is a constant color and not the same as what I am used to holding/seeing.
Larry, from what I understand the discoloration you mention is caused by annealing (http://www.lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm) which is done for reliability and accuracy (it serves to re-soften the brass at the case neck.) After reading up on it, several sources indicate that a lack of annealing on the cartridge can lead to case neck splitting...
What I have read seems to indicate that NATO-pressure ammo without annealing could be a contributing factor in a KaBoom. I could be wrong. If so, hopefully someone will correct me. ETA: Others have pointed out that lack of annealing can cause problems, but the annealing may not be apparent due to tumbling. Also, this case (no pun intended) does not appear to be split at the neck as is usually caused by lack of annealing, but rather a circumferential split.
Lake City XM193 has the heat marking where the brass necks down, at least all the Federal XM193 and white box Lake City XM193 I have does. Why does that not have the typical heat discolor I'm used to seeing?
All the XM193 (both F and otherwise) I have has annealing on the case-neck. I have on hand white and brown box "XM193F" as well as AE black box "XM193" from various lot #'s. All rounds I have so far examined show the annealing and LC 09 w/ NATO cross headstamp. Also, I believe annealing is called for in the original M193 spec (unable to verify this currently,) so I would be somewhat suspicious of any round claiming to be any variation of M193 and not having annealing. HTH
exkc135driver
04-25-09, 18:20
Lake City XM193 has the heat marking where the brass necks down, at least all the Federal XM193 and white box Lake City XM193 I have does. Why does that not have the typical heat discolor I'm used to seeing?
Just to admit, I do not know what the heat mark is from or why it is there, I just know I see it evertime I open my ammo. When I look at the picture a few posts up, I instantly noticed that the brass is a constant color and not the same as what I am used to holding/seeing.
Larry
The "heat mark" is caused in the manufacturing process when the brass is annealed to soften it somewhat in the neck and shoulder area. Thus, a better gas seal is obtained and the case neck is less likely to split.
Every time the case is reloaded and fired the brass, especially in the neck and shoulder area, work-hardens, so after it has been reloaded a number of times it should be re-annealed. But that does not mean that it needs to be re-annealed every, or every other, or even every third reloading.
Some people who reload tumble their brass just enough to clean it up, in which case the annealing will still be visible. Others, including some commercial reloaders, like their brass to look all bright and shiny, so they tumble it more, which causes the brass to look like the brass in the photo above.
I'm not saying that this is what happened or that the brass was reloaded. I'm just explaining the process.
Lake City XM193 has the heat marking where the brass necks down, at least all the Federal XM193 and white box Lake City XM193 I have does. Why does that not have the typical heat discolor I'm used to seeing?
Just to admit, I do not know what the heat mark is from or why it is there, I just know I see it evertime I open my ammo. When I look at the picture a few posts up, I instantly noticed that the brass is a constant color and not the same as what I am used to holding/seeing.
Larry
IIRC, the discoloration you're referring to is from the process of annealing the case neck. Annealing is (simplified) a thermal cycle to remove the residual stresses from forming the neck. I think the non-discolored cases have had it polished away for appearances...
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
ETA: Amazing how much can get posted while it's taking you an hour to type out a short post :p
SwatDawg15
04-25-09, 19:41
Glad your ok dude, Keep us updated on what Steve finds.
First: Derek, glad you got out with all your digits and eyeballs.
Second: Thanks for sharing with us. I've already learned some good technical information because you did so.
Stay safe.
Derek_Connor
04-25-09, 20:09
Incidents like this, as isolated as they may be, definitely remind me of how serious this shit can get every time the trigger is pulled. Its hard to rememver you have 50k+ PSI going off 4-5 inches infront of your face...
Its humbling.
ETA: I found the carboard box the plastic bag came in. I thought I had thrown it out already which is why I didn't have the LOT # info readily available. I found it in recycling pile. To my surprise, I do feel like an asshole. But after getting the box, I do have a question for Recobs, as to why they are advertising XM-193 but shipping reloaded AE .223 :mad:
Incidents like this, as isolated as they may be, definitely remind me of how serious this shit can get every time the trigger is pulled. Its hard to rememver you have 50k+ PSI going off 4-5 inches infront of your face...
Its humbling.
Really brings home why wear eye and ear protection doesn't it? Glad you fared safely in this situation.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-25-09, 20:55
ETA: I found the carboard box the plastic bag came in. I thought I had thrown it out already which is why I didn't have the LOT # info readily available. I found it in recycling pile. To my surprise, I do feel like an asshole. But after getting the box, I do have a question for Recobs, as to why they are advertising XM-193 but shipping reloaded AE .223 :mad:
Dun, dun, duuuuuh. Just like the old movies where the plot thickens. Maybe you should have paid them in Australian dollars. That's not kosher.
Ned Christiansen
04-25-09, 22:28
The bolt and barrel or at least the barrel extension should not be used again, whether or not there are visible cracks. Both are pretty marginal to start with-- I mean, they are not exactly overbuilt.
I know it hurts to give up a Noveske barrel. I suppose you could have another barrel extension put on it but barrel extensions are a little scarcer and 'spensiver now, plus the labor getting it oriented right and all.... and since the barrel already has a sh'load of rounds through it...... I think it's barrel-o'clock.
And you can get that feedramp thing taken care of at the same time:cool:
Parabellum9x19mm
04-25-09, 22:35
i read through a few times, but i never saw a Lot #
did you not have any of the boxes left from which to retrieve the lot number?
was this Federal XM193 in the brown box, or the brown sleeve w/strippers? or was it American Eagle Tactical black box? was it Speer Lawman blue box?
glad to hear that you and you're friends were not injured. i know that its comparatively irrelevant, but glad that the rifle wasn't completely destroyed as well.
Littlelebowski
04-25-09, 22:39
The bolt and barrel or at least the barrel extension should not be used again, whether or not there are visible cracks. Both are pretty marginal to start with-- I mean, they are not exactly overbuilt.
I know it hurts to give up a Noveske barrel. I suppose you could have another barrel extension put on it but barrel extensions are a little scarcer and 'spensiver now, plus the labor getting it oriented right and all.... and since the barrel already has a sh'load of rounds through it...... I think it's barrel-o'clock.
And you can get that feedramp thing taken care of at the same time:cool:
We are lucky to have you on the forum. Good stuff, Ned.
Glad your ok, I have had one kaboom and it scared the shit out of me! Just to be shure what I read, it was reloaded ammo and not xm 193 right?
By the way not related, but your bolt looks dry as heck. Did you clean it after the kaboom?
There are scattered reports of some hot recent production XM193 out and about. Two weeks ago, one case was popping primers...in a known-good 5.56 chamber. Others reported shooting older stuff, then switching to the newer, and finding a palpable difference in report.
In the past, XM193 has shown excessive pressures with enough consistency to warrant warnings from some noteworthies. "Nearly a proof load in every box" was a description offered up.
Caveat emptor. It's _X_M193 for a reason.
All that being said, those rounds like odd. In umpteen thousand, I've never seen an XM193 that wasn't obviously annealed, be it XM193/PD/F/etc.
Yowza glad all is ok with your body parts. The brass does not appear to be annealed but it may be the pics?
Failure2Stop
04-26-09, 06:14
To Summarize, after the kaboom, this is what seems have survived:
Bolt Carrier
Upper
Lower
Pmag
Bolt
Hell, I just think it's awesome that a Pmag survived a kB. Most mags involved in a kB wind up looking like a smashed slinky surrounded by rounds and a flattened beer can stuck in the magwell.
Derek_Connor
04-26-09, 06:22
To clear some things up, and finalize what ammo this is, it is not XM193.
When I purchased this ammo from Recob's, the part # being "XM-193" was what I was basing my purchase off of. My discussion with Recob's 2 evenings ago, he was under the assumption this was real XM-193.
Whether this is an honest mistake or not, I am not sure. But if his website would have had it in big black letters "AE223 RELOADED AMMO" I would have skipped out on buying this ammo.
But this ammo, after simple research, is:
AE223BK
223 REM
55 GR METAL CASE
AMERICAN EAGLE RIFLE CARTRIDGES
LOT # 357Z470
And after hearing Todd K @ Noveske and Ned C of Michiguns both post concerns about the bbl extension, I'll take that as a clue. :(
Oh well - it is what it is. Being stupid is not advantageous.
Derek,
Glad your ok. I know the feeling, I had a Georgia Arms .308 round KB on me once and it sucked ass picking bits of primer out of my face with tweezers.
With the ammo shortage, I check any ammo I buy closely. I would not put it past any dealer to take remanufacturered ammo and repack it into a box like the Federal XM193 box. Lack of annealing is a deal give away.
***Also, when you get your new bolt, ditch the rifle extractor spring and blue insert and go with the 5 coil spring with the black insert.;)
Derek_Connor
04-26-09, 07:09
Derek,
Glad your ok. I know the feeling, I had a Georgia Arms .308 round KB on me once and it sucked ass picking bits of primer out of my face with tweezers.
With the ammo shortage, I check any ammo I buy closely. I would not put it past any dealer to take remanufacturered ammo and repack it into a box like the Federal XM193 box. Lack of annealing is a deal give away.
***Also, when you get your new bolt, ditch the rifle extractor spring and blue insert and go with the 5 coil spring with the black insert.;)
Thanks Hootie. I do agree, my "inspection" was that I looked at the brass and it looked new. That is as far as I went.
It will be interesting to see how it plays out, how Recob's and/or Federal replies. And this particular firearm was insured from theft/fire/and damage.
So hopefully one of those three COA will pay off..
ETA: Initial confirmation from TOS states that this AE223BK is FACTORY AMMO. Not reloads.
If thats the case, Recob's is not @ Fault. I'll be going straight to federal on this..
Lake City XM193 has the heat marking where the brass necks down, at least all the Federal XM193 and white box Lake City XM193 I have does. Why does that not have the typical heat discolor I'm used to seeing?
Just to admit, I do not know what the heat mark is from or why it is there, I just know I see it evertime I open my ammo. When I look at the picture a few posts up, I instantly noticed that the brass is a constant color and not the same as what I am used to holding/seeing.
Larry
That mark you see is from annealing, which is a process employed to restore plasticity to the neck and shoulder areas of brass, so as to reverse the work hardening that results from case formation. Failure to anneal usually results in split necks, not the circumferential case separation that appears to be the issue here, which often occurs from reloading brass previously fired in rifles with excessive headspace. However, there really isn't enough data on which to base any judgment as to the failure mechanism in this case.
Sorry: posted this before reading the rest of the thread; others had already given same info.
was this Federal XM193 in the brown box, or the brown sleeve w/strippers? or was it American Eagle Tactical black box? was it Speer Lawman blue box?
Derek, most important, I am glad that you nor anyone else was injured.
Is the Speer Lawman Blue Box referenced above Lake City Brass?
Perhaps the title of this thread should be changed (to AE .223 reloads) since we now know that this was not XM193, just to be fair and accurate to Federal and XM193 buyers ?
Derek,
I have some Federal .223 55gr. ammo at home. I believe that the item number is 223N or something like that. I shot about 200 rds through my Noveske last time I was home and it fired w/o problems. Now, if this is reloaded stuff then that is a whole other story.
Derek_Connor
04-26-09, 10:09
Derek, most important, I am glad that you nor anyone else was injured.
Is the Speer Lawman Blue Box referenced above Lake City Brass?
Perhaps the title of this thread should be changed (to AE .223 reloads) since we now know that this was not XM193, just to be fair and accurate to Federal and XM193 buyers ?
good suggestion.
Here is an exact picture of the same type of ammo case it came in (inside this box was a large bag filled w/loose ammo):
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a210/ar34shooter/Gun/DSC00079-Copy.jpg
Derek,
Now, if this is reloaded stuff then that is a whole other story.
If you take a look at the pictures i posted before on page 1, others have pointed out, that there are little "dinks" in the brass that lead them to believe its reloaded brass..
Im not a reloader, I cannot verify this.
Posting the photo of the box is most helpful. Thanks.
Note, it was not even the hotter NATO spec 5.56MM stuff.
Derek_Connor
04-26-09, 10:47
Posting the photo of the box is most helpful. Thanks.
Note, it was not even the hotter NATO spec 5.56MM stuff.
Anything to help others.
In the end, if the barrel is scrapped, bolt is scrapped, i really dont want anything more than Federal just to buy this case of ammo back from me so I can buy another 1k of something else.
We shall see.
Derek,
I think that may be the ammo that I have as well. I'll check my spreadsheet. However, mine was in red 20rd boxes and not loose bulk. I would definitely get with Federal on this and see what they have to say. I am also not a reloader so I can't comment. However, I have see new M855 ammo out of the can where the brass had little dings and dents.
Ned Christiansen
04-26-09, 11:00
Guys, I think it's safe to say we may be seeing more of this in the current and coming period of ammo scarcity. As ammo continues to be harder to get, more people will be offering it. Maybe they will be people that shouldn't be making ammo, but anyone can make one mistake out of a million-- and who knows which of us will wind up with it.
Might be a good time for us individually to look at reloading....? Although, from what I hear, primers are really hard to come by right now...... bullets like ammo, are expensive and scarce.... I never cared for reloading 5.56 myself with the lube being a minor inconvenience and cases having to trimmed or at least checked for length. Plus what I've learned in recent years about popped primers and all, who's to say that the case you're reloading didn't almost pop its primer, and now the primer pocket is opened up just a tad so that this time it's gonna lose it for sure.
Side note-- and warning-- I recently saw an upper destroyed by a guy getting into reloading. He didn't do his homework AT ALL. Powder is not powder! If it was there'd be one kind and not, what, 3-400 kinds available (just a guess). Those of you who reload pistol and rifle ammo will cringe appropriately when I say, this dude loaded 23 grains of Bullseye into a .223 case.
Plenty of pitfalls in reloading your own but once you get going up the learning curve it can be very rewarding too. Nothing like putting 10 shots into a dime-sized group, and they are your roll-yer-owns. Or hearing that >thwack< on a prairie dog at a laser-ranged 380 yards and knowing you created the round that did it.
Glad your experience did not so much as put a sliver of brass under your skin-- you were lucky.
Heavy Metal
04-26-09, 11:39
Anything to help others.
In the end, if the barrel is scrapped, bolt is scrapped, i really dont want anything more than Federal just to buy this case of ammo back from me so I can buy another 1k of something else.
We shall see.
Federal loads, not reloads AE 223.
Federal owes you nothing. The person who defrauded you owes your restitution.
And to my knowledge, Federal never loose packs AE .223.
beaker1013
04-26-09, 13:47
Hey Derek,
I can't find my camera, I think I out-smarted myself putting it away so my son couldn't get to it, but I have a 500 round count box of XM193 left, and here's what is listed on the end of the box:
Federal Ammunition
XM193
5.56mm
Ball M193 55GR. MC-BT
Federal Rifle Cartridges
25 boxes of 20 500
Does the web site show that they also have the AE223? If so, they probably pulled the wrong stuff to fill the order and their inventory would reflect this. The problem lies on their end. I know nothing about this company, but they could've ordered the wrong junk in the first place and not caught it to begin with. Hopefully he'll buy it back from you.
thetallengineer
04-26-09, 14:51
I look forward to seeing how the rest of this unfolds. Glad you are ok.
A helpful hint for taking detailed pictures of up-close objects is to use the "Macro" setting on your camera. Most modern digital cameras offer this setting and it is usually depicted by a flower icon. If you still have trouble locating it then google Macro and your camera model # to find how to enable the setting or if your camera has it.
Derek_Connor
04-26-09, 14:59
I look forward to seeing how the rest of this unfolds. Glad you are ok.
A helpful hint for taking detailed pictures of up-close objects is to use the "Macro" setting on your camera. Most modern digital cameras offer this setting and it is usually depicted by a flower icon. If you still have trouble locating it then google Macro and your camera model # to find how to enable the setting or if your camera has it.
Thanks man.
I actually have a nice Digi SLR that I leant to an old friend, and I am still waiting for him to be done w/it
:rolleyes:
My only backup is the wife's that she bought in UAE, 'nuff said. POS.:mad:
Derek,
Glad to hear you are ok.
As someone with 10+ years of reloading experience and lots and lots of that with 223 I'd have to say from what I see on the picture of the ammo that you posted is reloaded ammo.
In that picture I count 5 different rounds with case dings on the body. Those dings are all classic ejection dings.
I'd suggest inspecting any of that you have left and looking closely at the cases and check for dents, I'd bet you see more of them.
Semper Fi
Federal loads, not reloads AE 223.
Federal owes you nothing. The person who defrauded you owes your restitution.
Federal should remit no less than the fair market value of the gun.
In past examples, they replaced them with new, and with ammo as well.
And to my knowledge, Federal never loose packs AE .223.
AE223 and XM193 are both bulk packed in 1k round cases, sold at retail, and can be commonly found.
The dings in the cases occur during shipping and aren't anything unusual in ammo so packaged.
Blearg, just checked my stash and ive got over 1k rounds of that exact stuff ready to be used in my next class.
I guess i cant fear the unknown so i might as well run it or am i asking to get burned? Earg. :mad:
decodeddiesel
04-26-09, 21:35
This whole thing reeks. Loose packed "XM193" in AE .223 Rem brass? Um, WTF? That sounds really fishy to me.
Have you pulled the projo on one of these to see if it a real M193 and it has the tar ball sealant? Are the primers crimped/sealed? Perhaps Molon or someone else up on propellant ID can tell you what type of power is in it.
It sound to me like this is 1k of once fired .223 AE re-loaded to M193'ish specs, ergo, someone ripped you off. I would talk to a lawyer, seriously.
It doesn't sound like reloads at all.
It sounds like his dealer didn't know the difference in product, or didn't pay attention in shipping. The packaging for the bulk-packed XM193 and AE223 is virtually identical. Some folks don't know the difference. Some will ship you one when the other is out of stock. Two vendors I use list XM193 and AE223 as the same line item, and the customer needs to specify what he wants.
Give the dealer a smack.
Tell Federal their ammo failed and to make it right.
Drive on.
Way too much conspiracy theory here.
decodeddiesel
04-26-09, 23:15
It doesn't sound like reloads at all.
It sounds like his dealer didn't know the difference in product, or didn't pay attention in shipping. The packaging for the bulk-packed XM193 and AE223 is virtually identical. Some folks don't know the difference. Some will ship you one when the other is out of stock. Two vendors I use list XM193 and AE223 as the same line item, and the customer needs to specify what he wants.
Give the dealer a smack.
Tell Federal their ammo failed and to make it right.
Drive on.
Way too much conspiracy theory here.
Huh, I guess I've just never seen nor heard of Federal selling their .223/5.56 in "bulk bags" like that. I'll take your word for it though.
Given that perceived F-up on the dealer's end what your saying seems entirely plausible.
ETA: OK that conspiracy remark is a little uncalled for here Sir. I wouldn't say it's a conspiracy theory, as in I seriously doubt someone intentionally sold Derek some bum ammo with the intent to cause him harm. I would not however (especially in this day and age of panic buying and hoarding) put it past some crooked MF'er to pull some crap where they sell home rolled reloads with little or no QA/QC as new name brand ammo.
A little clarification here. His ammo in question is Federal AE (American Eagle) .223 ammo. It is not Remington brass. It is stamped FC= Federal Cartridge and at the bottom is marked .223 Rem. That is common with most .223 ammo since the real name is .223 Remington.
At this point blaming the ammo is a bit premature. Yes, it could have been faulty ammo. But, he also indicated that the upper had 10K rounds through it. There may well have been a headspace issue here or a combination of the two.
Again, ANY AMMUNITION that you have can malfunction and cause a situation like this. Just like bad QA/QC can allow a crappy weapon to roll off the line and end up on the dealers shelf.
This whole thing reeks. Loose packed "XM193" in AE .223 Rem brass? Um, WTF? That sounds really fishy to me.
Have you pulled the projo on one of these to see if it a real M193 and it has the tar ball sealant? Are the primers crimped/sealed? Perhaps Molon or someone else up on propellant ID can tell you what type of power is in it.
It sound to me like this is 1k of once fired .223 AE re-loaded to M193'ish specs, ergo, someone ripped you off. I would talk to a lawyer, seriously.
From looking at the picture of the case rim section, it appears that there is a "bulge" above the rim. This might indicate that the weapon fired "WAY" out of battery. Can anyone comment on this? Why would the case have "bulged there?
Until that day,
Darkop
decodeddiesel
04-27-09, 09:00
A little clarification here. His ammo in question is Federal AE (American Eagle) .223 ammo. It is not Remington brass. It is stamped FC= Federal Cartridge and at the bottom is marked .223 Rem. That is common with most .223 ammo since the real name is .223 Remington.
At this point blaming the ammo is a bit premature. Yes, it could have been faulty ammo. But, he also indicated that the upper had 10K rounds through it. There may well have been a headspace issue here or a combination of the two.
Again, ANY AMMUNITION that you have can malfunction and cause a situation like this. Just like bad QA/QC can allow a crappy weapon to roll off the line and end up on the dealers shelf.
Of course. I have seen plenty of LC M855 "issues" ranging from squibs to over charged rounds, etc during my days as an Armorer and times I played RSNCO.
The thing that sounded warning bells to me was that it was loose packed in a plastic bag. I just have never seen Federal sell ammo in this fashion, but according to Skintop911 this is a common practice.
Could well have been an OOB, but the fact that as far as we know, pending professional examination by Steve, the damage was limited to the bolt and extractor. This would lead me to think the failure occurred while the bolt was locked up. To me screams double/overcharged ammo. If we had seen more damage to the upper/barrel extension I would be more inclined to agree with the OOB argument. Still though I don't want to venture too far out of my lane here. I was just a US Army Armorer therefore if this had happened to one of my M4s I would have just sent it in for higher level maintenance and requested a replacement M4 :D.
Huh, I guess I've just never seen nor heard of Federal selling their .223/5.56 in "bulk bags" like that. I'll take your word for it though.
No problem. There's a pic of the package higher up in the thread, and another poster or two mentioned buying it themselves.
Federal has bulk-packed their AE (and some others) for certain customers for some time. If I'm not mistaken, it's new-ish for mass sales though.
Given that perceived F-up on the dealer's end what your saying seems entirely plausible.
Yup. Seen it a dozen times. AE and XM cases comingled, substituted intentionally or accidentally, or ignorantly. Stuff happens. Inspect on arrival.
ETA: OK that conspiracy remark is a little uncalled for here Sir. I wouldn't say it's a conspiracy theory, as in I seriously doubt someone intentionally sold Derek some bum ammo with the intent to cause him harm. I would not however (especially in this day and age of panic buying and hoarding) put it past some crooked MF'er to pull some crap where they sell home rolled reloads with little or no QA/QC as new name brand ammo.
That comment wasn't directed at you, just the situation. No offense intended. It's not unthinkable that a dealer would screw someone like that, but it's not the first leap I'd take either. Some folks do need to take a deep breath, look at the case, read the packaging, and think for a second about what might have happened at the dealer end.
Virtual-beverage of choice for you, on me.
The local Sportsman's Warehouse sells this stuff:
http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss158/5757_photos/HPIM0866.jpg
EzGoingKev
04-27-09, 10:30
A friend and I just split a box of the same stuff. It came in the same box and was loose in a plastic bag. The gun shop we got it had 20 round boxes of Federal XM193, just like in the picture in the post before this one, and told us this was the same stuff, but once we opened the box we found out otherwise. I don't think the gun shop pulled a fast one, the guy just didn't know what he talking about. Remember, just because we are on the internet and know the muzzle velocity and frag figures for 75g Partizan doesn't mean everyone else does.
I fired 150 rounds of it the other night with no problems at all. One thing I did notice is that not all the ammo is the same.
The majority of it is marked "F C 223-REM" and has an overall measurement of 2.195".
Some of it is marked "L C 0 8" and some is marked "C C I W 6" and their overall measurement is 2.250". The primer and the back of cartridge area on the rounds marked "C C I W 6" have red sealer on them so the back of the rounds look red. This is what caught my attention.
The F C casing is about .015" shorter than casings with the other marks.
We did initially compare one of the rounds marked "F C 223-REM" to a round from a 20 round box of Federal XM193 and it was shorter. This was at my buddies house, he had the box of rounds so I can't get a measurement.
I wonder if this stuff is a mix of .223 and 5.56 and that someone with a .223 chamber could have problems with it?
decodeddiesel
04-27-09, 11:04
No problem. There's a pic of the package higher up in the thread, and another poster or two mentioned buying it themselves.
Federal has bulk-packed their AE (and some others) for certain customers for some time. If I'm not mistaken, it's new-ish for mass sales though.
Yup. Seen it a dozen times. AE and XM cases comingled, substituted intentionally or accidentally, or ignorantly. Stuff happens. Inspect on arrival.
That comment wasn't directed at you, just the situation. No offense intended. It's not unthinkable that a dealer would screw someone like that, but it's not the first leap I'd take either. Some folks do need to take a deep breath, look at the case, read the packaging, and think for a second about what might have happened at the dealer end.
Virtual-beverage of choice for you, on me.
No sweat, thanks! :)
Last weekend we were chronoing some Corbon .223. I brought some XM193 (lot #7, the old white box) as a control round to compare to the Corbon.
The XM193 was doing as high as 3360 fps out of a 20" chrome lined Hbar. This was 10 feet from the muzzle. 10 or so rounds were fired. None was slower than 3300 fps.
The pictures you posted are definitely reloaded ammunition. I doubt federal would sell reloads like that in one of those boxes (which should have red 20 rounds boxes in it).
Here's what happened.
Your dealer bought some reloads from an unknown entity. He sealed them up in a plastic bag. He put them in an empty Federal ae223 box and sold them to you as new.
Federal is not to blame here, if you want to blame someone, it should go directly back to the person who sold you the ammo.
Lostinthewoods
04-27-09, 13:27
This looks to me like an obvious OOB discharge, as an earlier poster had mentioned.
There is a 1/8" ring swelled just in front of the case head all around the head.
When it went off, this much of the case was NOT in the chamber.
I've seen the exact same thing happen when there was a disconnector problem, even did the exact same extractor damage.
Looks like a FCG problem to me, NOT an ammo issue at all.
HB
Wow, I have had more issued w/ Federal than Wolf or any other brand, I dont get it!
Glad you're ok!
This looks to me like an obvious OOB discharge, as an earlier poster had mentioned.
Out of Battery discharges are almost impossible on the AR. The firing pin is not capable of touching the primer until the bolt is fully locked up.
I won't say it's completely impossible, but it's very close. There'd have to be some sort of other factor involved... debris or a improperly seated primer, etc.
Lostinthewoods
04-27-09, 14:11
Out of Battery discharges are almost impossible on the AR. The firing pin is not capable of touching the primer until the bolt is fully locked up.
I won't say it's completely impossible, but it's very close. There'd have to be some sort of other factor involved... debris or a improperly seated primer, etc.
It IS an OOB discharge, I've seen it when the hammer follows the bolt home and strikes the FP right before the bolt lugs have locked up.
Way back in the day, I have SEEN (I've of course never done or condone anything like this) people used to remove the disconnector from their shorty's (only light buffers) and stick in a FA safety to make the gun's shoot FA, very dangerous, as the hammer was just following the bolt home and conditions happened VERY often that made the exact same thing as the OP's condition happen.
Look at the case head, there is NO WAY to swell that head up like that UNLESS THE CASE WAS NOT FULLY IN THE CHAMBER WHEN IT WENT OFF....PERIOD.
Explain ANY other way for that pressure ring (directly in front of the extractor groove on the pic of the broken case head) to get there, and I will quit arguing and shut up.
It may not be a FCG problem, but some way that round went off without being fully seated with the locking lugs locked.
HB
EDITED to ADD: If something happened that suddenly increased headspace by 1/8" or so, say the bbl slipped forward in the bbl extension, this could make it happen, but I don't believe that is the case, as I believe it would be very obvious.
Yes. I agree on your scenario of the hammer following the carrier home and creating FA fire.
But.... it is mechanically Impossible for the firing pin to touch the primer until the bolt is locked and in battery. You can pull a bolt group out of an AR and confirm this by pushing on the back of the firing pin. The front of the firing pin can't even protrude through the bolt face until the bolt is locked up.
It's not even debateable. It's mechanically impossible on an in spec AR rifle. Now if you had an out of spec firing pin or some thing way out of the norm it could happen, but the firing pin would have to be pretty significantly out of spec. Now if a hunk of debris or popped primer somehow got in the bolt face I could see how that might ignite a round out of battery. That's a pretty long shot though.
Lake City XM193 has the heat marking where the brass necks down, at least all the Federal XM193 and white box Lake City XM193 I have does. Why does that not have the typical heat discolor I'm used to seeing?
Just to admit, I do not know what the heat mark is from or why it is there, I just know I see it evertime I open my ammo. When I look at the picture a few posts up, I instantly noticed that the brass is a constant color and not the same as what I am used to holding/seeing.
Larry
Larry,
To my knowledge, the discoloration of the shoulder/neck on military 5.56mm ammo is result of "annealing" the brass in that area during the production process. And yes, it is normal to see most commercial .223 WITHOUT the annealing color present.
The rounds shown in the photo, ARE NOT Federal XM193 in my opinion. I have seen quite a few examples of the XM193 cartridges, and they always show evidence of annealing.
On the head stamp they normally show the "LC" for Lake City and then two digits indicating year of production. Some of the XM193 ammo will also be stamped with the NATO figure on the head stamp in addition to the info I already mentioned.
Something is fishy with this batch of ammo.
The rounds shown in the photo, ARE NOT Federal XM193 in my opinion. I have seen quite a few examples of the XM193 cartridges, and they always show evidence of annealing.
And that is a SPEC REQUIREMENT for XM193....
http://www.federalpremium.com/resources/xm193.aspx
Although so is case neck sealant, and I've pulled bullets with no case neck sealant on them.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-27-09, 15:48
It IS an OOB discharge, I've seen it when the hammer follows the bolt home and strikes the FP right before the bolt lugs have locked up.
From the OP:
"I was on approximately round 20-23 of a full 30 round magazine, and I pulled the trigger and felt an extreme GUSH of air on my chest/abdomen/legs. The magazine was literally SHOT out of my magwell, and the bolt was stuck."
Derek didn't report a double and it doesn't seem he was running rounds thru the gun. For what you say to happen, the first round he squeezed off went OK, but the second round had your failure? That is outside of the bolt lock/clearance issue mentioned by markm. Don't know Derek personally, but I've watched him shoot alot ;) I'd think he'd be able to report a double.
Lostinthewoods
04-27-09, 15:56
Yes. I agree on your scenario of the hammer following the carrier home and creating FA fire.
But.... it is mechanically Impossible for the firing pin to touch the primer until the bolt is locked and in battery. You can pull a bolt group out of an AR and confirm this by pushing on the back of the firing pin. The front of the firing pin can't even protrude through the bolt face until the bolt is locked up.
It's not even debateable. It's mechanically impossible on an in spec AR rifle. Now if you had an out of spec firing pin or some thing way out of the norm it could happen, but the firing pin would have to be pretty significantly out of spec. Now if a hunk of debris or popped primer somehow got in the bolt face I could see how that might ignite a round out of battery. That's a pretty long shot though.
I agree that the FP cannot contact the primer until the bolt is CLOSE to home , but the lugs do not have to be 100% turned and locked, only close, enough that maybe only 20% of the lugs are in engagement. A dirty chamber or bent round would exasperate the problem. Enough that the bolt could possibly not lock 100% and allow the pressure to blow the assy back, I agree some other factors would have to be out of spec for this to occur.
Both times I have seen this was on weapons with high round counts. Looking at his bolt carrier in the pics, it looks pretty rough, maybe the cam key hole is slightly worn, or tolerance stacking is allowing some problem to occur.
I don't know WHAT caused it, that is NOT what I am arguing, I am arguing that it IS an OOB discharge, whatever the cause.
NOT AN AMMO PROBLEM
Explain to me ANY scenario where that pressure ring can occur with the case being fully seated in the chamber and you will convince me otherwise. (Except the extreme headspace example I cited above)
HB
Explain to me ANY scenario where that pressure ring can occur with the case being fully seated in the chamber and you will convince me otherwise.
I hear ya. But I can't see the pics here at work. They're filtered. I'll try to remember to check them out a the house. I'm dying to see what the ammo looks like as well.
Lostinthewoods
04-27-09, 16:14
I hear ya. But I can't see the pics here at work. They're filtered. I'll try to remember to check them out a the house. I'm dying to see what the ammo looks like as well.
I didn't realize you hadn't seen the pics, it is evident when you see them.
There is nothing wrong with the ammo, it is just the cheap .223 FC commercial stuff in 1000 round bulk pack, it even says on the box "1 box of 1000" not 20 boxes of 50 like normal.
I guess it is POSSIBLE, but very unlikely, that someone put some very nice reloads (and even slightly dinged them up, like factory stuff) with perfect crimps and all the same headstamp in a box and sold them, but I believe it's all typical internet drama.
I hope I can buy 10K rounds of it CHEAP from someone because it is so bad!!
If they were passed off as mil-spec 5.56, then that was wrong.
HB
dookie1481
04-27-09, 16:41
Derek,
Glad to hear you are ok.
As someone with 10+ years of reloading experience and lots and lots of that with 223 I'd have to say from what I see on the picture of the ammo that you posted is reloaded ammo.
In that picture I count 5 different rounds with case dings on the body. Those dings are all classic ejection dings.
I'd suggest inspecting any of that you have left and looking closely at the cases and check for dents, I'd bet you see more of them.
Semper Fi
Interesting, I've seen Q3131 with dings in the casing...are these used cases as well?
Jay
Derek_Connor
04-27-09, 17:13
Getting ahold of a live person @ Federal has been unsuccessful today.
From my limited reseach and talking to people offline, and sending the upper to a competent smith, it seems the diagnosis is a simple case failure.
Not an OOB, not bullet set back, not over pressure, not even a real kaboom.
Will update whenever I get ahold of federal
Lostinthewoods
04-27-09, 18:34
Sorry Derek,
There was nothing wrong with the case, the round went off when the case was not fully in the chamber, by about .100" or so.
I don't care how good any smith is, I don't care if he's Eugene Stoner, I don't care what Federal says, if they tell you otherwise, they are wrong.
I don't know HOW this occurred, but there is NO other explanation for the pressure ring expanded between the extractor groove and the main body of the case.
Either the bolt was not fully seated or VERY excessive headspace (.100" or more, unlikely) occurred.
HB
I looked at the bulge in the case head, and I don't see it as proof of some sort of out of battery discharge. It's close, but I just dropped a live round into one of my AR chambers and the case bulge is right about where the case head is exposed at the radiused part of the chamber.
My vote would be an overcharged round. Not so significant that it created a full blown Kabizzle, but that flattened primer is a good clue. The primer flow too. Especially for Fed 223 ammo.
The pictures you posted are definitely reloaded ammunition. I doubt federal would sell reloads like that in one of those boxes (which should have red 20 rounds boxes in it).
Here's what happened.
Your dealer bought some reloads from an unknown entity. He sealed them up in a plastic bag. He put them in an empty Federal ae223 box and sold them to you as new.
Federal is not to blame here, if you want to blame someone, it should go directly back to the person who sold you the ammo.
Why do you believe those are "definitely reloaded ammunition?"
Those rounds look like every other AE223 I've seen, with incidental marks and blems consistent with other bulk packaged loads.
(Emphasis in quotes is mine.)
Well I've been reloading since 1970 and I can see one thing, the pressure was way up, the flattened primer and ejector hole flow show that. Those are both signs of overpressure. Typically in a bolt action the ejector hole flow of brass leaves a shiny spot where the bolt shears off the excess in the pocket when rotated to extract the case.
Derek_Connor
04-27-09, 20:58
Sorry Derek,
There was nothing wrong with the case, the round went off when the case was not fully in the chamber, by about .100" or so.
I don't care how good any smith is, I don't care if he's Eugene Stoner, I don't care what Federal says, if they tell you otherwise, they are wrong.
I don't know HOW this occurred, but there is NO other explanation for the pressure ring expanded between the extractor groove and the main body of the case.
Either the bolt was not fully seated or VERY excessive headspace (.100" or more, unlikely) occurred.
HB
Im open to theories, but whats your background that would trump someone's visual inspection of the actual upper?
Why do you believe those are "definitely reloaded ammunition?"
Those rounds look like every other AE223 I've seen, with incidental marks and blems consistent with other bulk packaged loads.
Same here. The ammo looks like the AE223 I have right now. There was apparently some confusion that it was XM193... which the ammo doesn't look like. But it does look like AE223.
Derek_Connor
04-27-09, 21:34
I posted it somewhere in this thread, but it is AE223BK.
NOT XM193.
mrwickwire
04-27-09, 22:44
From looking at the picture of the case rim section, it appears that there is a "bulge" above the rim. This might indicate that the weapon fired "WAY" out of battery. Can anyone comment on this? Why would the case have "bulged there?
Until that day,
Darkop
I was thinking the same thing. I was surprised it took so long for someone to mention it.
Lostinthewoods
04-27-09, 23:00
Im open to theories, but whats your background that would trump someone's visual inspection of the actual upper?
This is the internet, I could tell you I am the Queen of Sheba.
Prove me wrong........
Take a measurement (with a caliper) from the blown case.
Measure from the flat face of the cartridge (i.e. the flat headstamp area) to where the body goes back to the normal chamber size. (For example, lay the flat head on a table and measure UP to the flat of the chamber walls, including ALL the radius) This will give you the total measurement of 3 things.
1. Depth of the bolt recess where the cartridge head sits (approx. .122")
2. Depth of the chamber radius (approx. .045-.047")
3. Headspace when the cartridge was fired
I'm just going from memory on the above 2 measurements, but they should be close.
If I am WRONG, you should have a measurement of .122+.047+approx. .007 (normal headspace) say around .176". Anything much over that and it was not fully chambered or your gun has a huge radius on the chamber, way out of spec.
Just eyeballing your blown case and a WAG on my part, I"d say yours is .210" or more.
So, got a caliper to prove me wrong?
When you prove me right I will give you my creds, then you might believe me.
HB
ADD: The flattened primer and extractor signs will also go along with the excessive headspace issue, so if I am right, those signs would be expected and are not problems with the ammo.
This is the internet, I could tell you I am the Queen of Sheba.
Prove me wrong........
Take a measurement (with a caliper) from the blown case.
Measure from the flat face of the cartridge (i.e. the flat headstamp area) to where the body goes back to the normal chamber size. (For example, lay the flat head on a table and measure UP to the flat of the chamber walls, including ALL the radius) This will give you the total measurement of 3 things.
1. Depth of the bolt recess where the cartridge head sits (approx. .122")
2. Depth of the chamber radius (approx. .045-.047")
3. Headspace when the cartridge was fired
I'm just going from memory on the above 2 measurements, but they should be close.
If I am WRONG, you should have a measurement of .122+.047+approx. .007 (normal headspace) say around .176". Anything much over that and it was not fully chambered or your gun has a huge radius on the chamber, way out of spec.
Just eyeballing your blown case and a WAG on my part, I"d say yours is .210" or more.
So, got a caliper to prove me wrong?
When you prove me right I will give you my creds, then you might believe me.
HB
Would it be reasonable to expect the BCG to be pushed back if the gun fired out of battery?
Derek,
Please keep us informed. I am actually kind of surprised how many here are ABSOLUTELY certain as to what happend, based on some pics and a description. I think there are still too many variables here and until the weapon is inspected and the ammo issue is addressed with Federal it's just mass speculation.
Lake City XM193 has the heat marking where the brass necks down, at least all the Federal XM193 and white box Lake City XM193 I have does. Why does that not have the typical heat discolor I'm used to seeing?
Just to admit, I do not know what the heat mark is from or why it is there, I just know I see it evertime I open my ammo. When I look at the picture a few posts up, I instantly noticed that the brass is a constant color and not the same as what I am used to holding/seeing.
Larry
The "heat mark" is caused in the manufacturing process when the brass is annealed to soften it somewhat in the neck and shoulder area. Thus, a better gas seal is obtained and the case neck is less likely to split.
Every time the case is reloaded and fired the brass, especially in the neck and shoulder area, work-hardens, so after it has been reloaded a number of times it should be re-annealed. But that does not mean that it needs to be re-annealed every, or every other, or even every third reloading.
Some people who reload tumble their brass just enough to clean it up, in which case the annealing will still be visible. Others, including some commercial reloaders, like their brass to look all bright and shiny, so they tumble it more, which causes the brass to look like the brass in the photo above.
I'm not saying that this is what happened or that the brass was reloaded. I'm just explaining the process.
ETA: I found the carboard box the plastic bag came in. I thought I had thrown it out already which is why I didn't have the LOT # info readily available. I found it in recycling pile. To my surprise, I do feel like an asshole. But after getting the box, I do have a question for Recobs, as to why they are advertising XM-193 but shipping reloaded AE .223 :mad:
That's uber lame. No matter what the ammo actually is it wasn't what you thought you bought. Anyone have a pic of AE .223 for comparison?
Derek_Connor
04-28-09, 08:02
Derek,
Please keep us informed. I am actually kind of surprised how many here are ABSOLUTELY certain as to what happend, based on some pics and a description. I think there are still too many variables here and until the weapon is inspected and the ammo issue is addressed with Federal it's just mass speculation.
Couldn't agree more.
Federal has been mighty hard to get ahold of.
And LITW, I do not have a set of calipers. sorry.
Lostinthewoods
04-28-09, 08:21
And LITW, I do not have a set of calipers. sorry.
Harbor Freight Tools sells them for $9.95.
Walk into any gun store and use theirs.
[QUOTE=Derek_Connor;358656]
Federal has been mighty hard to get ahold of.
/QUOTE]
It is around. It is just not cheap anymore.
Derek_Connor
04-28-09, 08:45
[QUOTE=Derek_Connor;358656]
Federal has been mighty hard to get ahold of.
/QUOTE]
It is around. It is just not cheap anymore.
Sorry, I meant they were hard to get ahold of on the phone.
Every extension rings and rings, no one answers. Maybe they knew i was coming...:D
Forgot to update my other post from this morning, after the case was removed headspace was checked, all checked out fine. No excessive or abnormal headspace issues.
Which is impressive considering the round count through the barrel.
LITW, I will see what I can do about calipers. I know someone who's got a real accurate set. I'll honestly try to get some measurements for you, like I said im open to theories, but for someone who is going off 2 or 3 photos and making definitive statements w/out the kit infront of them, is borderline "grey area" for some of us..
dirksterg30
04-28-09, 08:48
[QUOTE=Derek_Connor;358656]
Federal has been mighty hard to get ahold of.
/QUOTE]
It is around. It is just not cheap anymore.
I think Derek is referring to getting a hold of Federal the company, not Federal ammo.
Thomas M-4
04-28-09, 09:04
Is there anything left of the neck or shoulder of that case?
I would think if it was a OOB the shoulder would be blown out kinda like you would make a wild cat. just speculating on this
Ned Christiansen
04-28-09, 09:18
First pic, bolt in battery, completely locked, carrier seated fully forward. Firing pin can reach the primer. Since that is a fired case in the chamber, the FP in this picture is actually to its max forward position, nestled in the firing pin dent in the primer.
Second pic, bolt in battery, completely locked, carrier retracted a bit, not fully seated, but not far enough back to have started rotating and unlocking the bolt. Firing pin is blocked from contacting the primer by a step in the carrier that stops the firing pin's flange. Again-- bolt is completely locked and FP cannot touch the primer. Misses it by a long shot, by design.
http://www.louderthanwords.us/largefoto/picts/ulfls/28042009/19501198091.jpg
http://www.louderthanwords.us/largefoto/picts/ulfls/28042009/19501198232.jpg
Caliper reading from bolt face to where the chamber's feeding radius stops, .210.
Here's Derek's case roughly scaled and superimposed on the second pic from above:
http://www.louderthanwords.us/mediumfoto/picts/ulfls/28042009/20332825741.jpg
Excellent images!!!
I was thinking of this last night. If you take a complete upper off of a gun and flip it upside down; you can cycle the bolt group and see just how impossible an out of battery discharge is.
As Mr. Christiansen points out. the bolt is locked up before the carrier finishes moving forward... WELL before it's even physically possible for the FP to touch the primer.
The bad round from Derrek's gun is simply flowing into the void area where the chamber radiuses out by the bolt lugs.
exkc135driver
04-28-09, 09:48
Ned's pictures are worth much wore than 1,000 words ... very instructive
Thomas M-4
04-28-09, 09:48
Thanks for the cut away pics NED it does clearly show that a OOB cant happen.
Bad ammo most surely had to be the cause. IMHO
First pic, bolt in battery, completely locked, carrier seated fully forward. Firing pin can reach the primer. Since that is a fired case in the chamber, the FP in this picture is actually to its max forward position, nestled in the firing pin dent in the primer.
Second pic, bolt in battery, completely locked, carrier retracted a bit, not fully seated, but not far enough back to have started rotating and unlocking the bolt. Firing pin is blocked from contacting the primer by a step in the carrier that stops the firing pin's flange. Again-- bolt is completely locked and FP cannot touch the primer. Misses it by a long shot, by design.
http://www.louderthanwords.us/largefoto/picts/ulfls/28042009/19501198091.jpg
http://www.louderthanwords.us/largefoto/picts/ulfls/28042009/19501198232.jpg
Caliper reading from bolt face to where the chamber's feeding radius stops, .210.
Here's Derek's case roughly scaled and superimposed on the second pic from above:
http://www.louderthanwords.us/mediumfoto/picts/ulfls/28042009/20332825741.jpg
Excellent pictures sir! If you don't mind, I'm going to borrow them to explain this to some other people.
I am sure that someone can correct me if I am wrong. The only time that I have seen a real out of battery incident is on weapons systems like the .50 cal because they actually have an adjustable headspace that has to be set everytime and the fact that the breech simply slams forward and there are no locking lugs per se.
This is why it is absolutely IMPERATIVE to set and check the headspace. I was involved or privy to a few incidents that occurred. In one case a person received minor shrapnel wounds when the pieces of the casing struck them after firing a weapon that wasn't headspaced. One of the other incidents the barrel was launched into the deep blue and was never recovered.
Derek_Connor
04-28-09, 11:09
Ned, what Can I say man, thank you for posting those pictures.
Straight from the "horses mouth"
So, OOB is ruled out, head space was ruled out, the initial diagnosis of bad brase/case failure is still front running.
the initial diagnosis of bad brase/case failure is still front running.
My opinion is case failure from an excessive powder charge. A bad piece of brass wouldn't have given that level of primer flattening and primer flow.... especially on .223 pressure ammo.
Mo_Zam_Beek
04-28-09, 11:30
Derek - back to basics for a minute - if you look through your empties and the remainder of the 'new' case of ammo - are all of the headstamps the same? If not are they all at least Federal cases?
Good to see you weren't hurt.
Good luck on this one and thanks for sharing.
Ned Christiansen
04-28-09, 11:49
I agree (oob unlikely).
The only way I know of that an out of battery firing can happen, other than, say, a foreign object on the bolt face firing the primer, is if the bolt carrier bounces after the firing pin has done its duty-- only an issue on full auto. I'm not going to say it's impossible on a semi-auto gun-- one that's been diddled with as mentioned above or one that's just plain malfunctioning. Hammer follows bolt, fires the round as the bolt is bouncing, pressure has not dropped, carrier bounces enough to unlock bolt..... theoretically and mechanically not impossible I guess but that was pretty much addressed in the early '60's with the buffer as a bounce inhibitor.
Given a combo the wrong buffer, say one of the old Mom-and-Pop's Bufferama imitations with no stack of weights and rubber discs, an extra-strong buffer spring (or would it be extra light?), a heavy barrel for the carrier to bounce off of, a malfunctioning semi FCG where the hammer is following the bolt, soft primers that can react to the reduced hammer blow delivered under these conditions, and let's say we've dropped a round in the chamber and then dropped the bolt on it, so there's no stripping of a round from the mag to retard things just a tad........... I'm probably never gonna say an out of battery firing can't happen. But I have definitely not seen it all yet...... and these are only my opinions.
Going by what I see here it's not what happened. The sectioned barrel is chamfered/radiused as per normal and had 10K-plus rounds through it, no blowouts. To me it appears that Derek's case was in a chamber with about the same radius.
Feel free to use the images.
Lostinthewoods
04-28-09, 14:04
Excellent photos, Mr. Christianson, but I still believe there is something going on with his gun, as this cartridge would have been over proof load pressure to have blown like it did. And with a commercial cartridge with cannister grade powder, even a full case full, I don't believe would have been catastrophic like this.
Now, if they WERE really reloads, and had the wrong powder in them, it would be a different story.
I was wrong once when I was younger, but still not convinced.
That measurement would still be interesting.
Most commercial ammo I've ever shot had enough additional case capacity that I could actually shake the round and hear the powder charge.
If a commercial load was loaded to the point where the the bullet was compressing the load, I could easily see there being enough pressure to do this.
Ned Christiansen
04-28-09, 14:18
I agree that given the right powder it seems pretty hard to significantly overload .223. On the other hand, believe it or not I just saw a kaboom where a guy was just getting into reloading. Guess what 23 grains of Bullseye does to an AR15?:D Now that's an overload!
A load on the edge-- plus a case that's weak for some reason-- plus maybe cases that weren't trimmed to length and were long enough that the case neck was squeezed down onto the bullet-- plus maybe the feeding chamfer/radius on Derek's barrel is a tad deep-- plus another factor or two we can't even guess-- 5% here and 5% there, and the end of the safety factor was reached!
Lostinthewoods
04-28-09, 14:56
I agree (oob unlikely).
The only way I know of that an out of battery firing can happen, other than, say, a foreign object on the bolt face firing the primer, is if the bolt carrier bounces after the firing pin has done its duty-- only an issue on full auto. I'm not going to say it's impossible on a semi-auto gun-- one that's been diddled with as mentioned above or one that's just plain malfunctioning. Hammer follows bolt, fires the round as the bolt is bouncing, pressure has not dropped, carrier bounces enough to unlock bolt..... theoretically and mechanically not impossible I guess but that was pretty much addressed in the early '60's with the buffer as a bounce inhibitor.
Given a combo the wrong buffer, say one of the old Mom-and-Pop's Bufferama imitations with no stack of weights and rubber discs, an extra-strong buffer spring (or would it be extra light?), a heavy barrel for the carrier to bounce off of, a malfunctioning semi FCG where the hammer is following the bolt, soft primers that can react to the reduced hammer blow delivered under these conditions, and let's say we've dropped a round in the chamber and then dropped the bolt on it, so there's no stripping of a round from the mag to retard things just a tad........... I'm probably never gonna say an out of battery firing can't happen. But I have definitely not seen it all yet...... and these are only my opinions.
Going by what I see here it's not what happened. The sectioned barrel is chamfered/radiused as per normal and had 10K-plus rounds through it, no blowouts. To me it appears that Derek's case was in a chamber with about the same radius.
Feel free to use the images.
Both times I have seen a similar thing happen was back in the early '80's when everyone was doing the back yard FA conversions, by just replacing the guts on a CAR15 with M16 parts and no DIAS. Most of the parts were worn out junk bought at gun shows, rewelded bolt carriers, etc. It was very stupid, but I have known many people who did it.
Both times looked identical to the damage and pics shown by the OP, we measured the dimension I asked for and both were in the 1/4" area. Couldn't come to any other conclusion except the gun fired SOMEHOW with the case slightly out of the chamber. I believe now, since I understand the system a little better, the hammer caught the bolt bounce when the BC was slightly unlocked, as these guns were probably running 1100 rpm plus.
Thanks for your insight, and I don't mean to argue with you, but I still believe he has another problem somewhere.
Thanks,
HB
Both times I have seen a similar thing happen was back in the early '80's when everyone was doing the back yard FA conversions, by just replacing the guts on a CAR15 with M16 parts and no DIAS. Most of the parts were worn out junk bought at gun shows, rewelded bolt carriers, etc. It was very stupid, but I have known many people who did it.
Both times looked identical to the damage and pics shown by the OP, we measured the dimension I asked for and both were in the 1/4" area. Couldn't come to any other conclusion except the gun fired SOMEHOW with the case slightly out of the chamber. I believe now, since I understand the system a little better, the hammer caught the bolt bounce when the BC was slightly unlocked, as these guns were probably running 1100 rpm plus.
Thanks for your insight, and I don't mean to argue with you, but I still believe he has another problem somewhere.
Thanks,
HB
You said somewhere about posting your credentials? Have you done that? Might have missed it. :confused:
Lostinthewoods
04-28-09, 16:03
I agree that given the right powder it seems pretty hard to significantly overload .223. On the other hand, believe it or not I just saw a kaboom where a guy was just getting into reloading. Guess what 23 grains of Bullseye does to an AR15?:D Now that's an overload!
A load on the edge-- plus a case that's weak for some reason-- plus maybe cases that weren't trimmed to length and were long enough that the case neck was squeezed down onto the bullet-- plus maybe the feeding chamfer/radius on Derek's barrel is a tad deep-- plus another factor or two we can't even guess-- 5% here and 5% there, and the end of the safety factor was reached!
These are supposedly factory Federal .223 rounds, he even had the original box. I was basing all my assumptions on that fact.
All bets are off if they are truly reloads, but I don't believe they are, by looking at the pics.
I'd still like that measurement, it would let me know if I am truly an idiot.
Thanks again,
HB
SeriousStudent
04-28-09, 17:18
Mr. Christiansen, I would like to add my thanks to the others, for your work with those photos.
Derek_Connor
04-28-09, 17:48
Justin @ Federal called me back today. I was taken back by how professional and concerned he was. One of the first questions he asked me was if I was ok. Thought that was squared away.
Getting an RA # from them, they are going to take the lot of ammo back from me.
Thats all the info I have right now, will update as we proceed.
Justin @ Federal called me back today. I was taken back by how professional and concerned he was. One of the first questions he asked me was if I was ok. Thought that was squared away.
Getting an RA # from them, they are going to take the lot of ammo back from me.
Thats all the info I have right now, will update as we proceed.
Excellent.
Of course. ... To me screams double/overcharged ammo.
Then pull a bullet and see how much space is left in the case to add such a double load of powder. I doubt that there will be that much room. There will be enough room for a few more grains, but not a double.
decodeddiesel
04-29-09, 12:49
Then pull a bullet and see how much space is left in the case to add such a double load of powder. I doubt that there will be that much room. There will be enough room for a few more grains, but not a double.
Sure, but as you said they're still some room for extra propellant.
Sure, but as you said they're still some room for extra propellant.
Exactly. XM193 is maxed out 5.56 pressure ammo, but there's room for more powder in the case. You can shake a round or a mag full of rounds and hear it.
I wouldn't want another half a grain of propellent in one of those loads (as an example).
Lostinthewoods
04-29-09, 14:52
Then pull a bullet and see how much space is left in the case to add such a double load of powder. I doubt that there will be that much room. There will be enough room for a few more grains, but not a double.
Exactly, if you pulled a bullet from one of those rounds (IF they are truly factory Fed AE .223), they use a carefully chosen canister grade powder with a high load density. Even a full case of the factory powder would not bring pressures to OVER proof load area as this case is showing.
I've reloaded for over 35 years, started on my grandpa's kitchen table with a hammer and a LEE .38 special hand die, I was about 10 years old and he let me beat the primers in. I learned to load bottleneck cases with my dad's Lyman nutcracker type .222 REM loader. I've made some really stupid mistakes, esp. with pistol powders, and blown some stuff up. I loaded 20-30K a year back when I shot a lot of pistol. In the military and as a civvy contractor I've seen M16's with 3 bullets lodged in the barrel, cleaning rods, sticks, etc. But I have only seen a case head like that twice. Especially with the other damage signs on the firearm.
That's why I still believe that cartridge fired SOMEHOW with a gross headspace issue. Maybe .010 to .020" or so.
I wish he could get that measurement I requested. It may not be definitive, but would answer the question in my mind, anyway.
Originally posted by Lostinthewoods:
Exactly, if you pulled a bullet from one of those rounds (IF they are truly factory Fed AE .223), they use a carefully chosen canister grade powder with a high load density. Even a full case of the factory powder would not bring pressures to OVER proof load area as this case is showing.
That's why I still believe that cartridge fired SOMEHOW with a gross headspace issue. Maybe .010 to .020" or so.
Lot’s of erroneous information in that post. For starters Federal does not use "canister grade powders" in American Eagle and XM193 ammunition. They use commercial grade powders. Secondly, over-pressure loads well beyond proof pressures can certainly be obtained in the .223/5.56mm cartridge.
The commercial grade powders used by Federal to load XM193 are vary similar in burn rate and bulk density to canister grade H335; not exactly the same, but very similar. A virgin Lake City 5.56mm case can easily hold 31.0 grains of H335. Do you know what a typical charge weight is for XM193? A projection in QuickLoad shows that just 30.0 grains of H335 under a 55 grain FMJ bullet can generate pressures in the neighborhood of 80,000 PSI.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/nb6x06saag.jpg
Here’s a link to an article on Armalite’s website showing the condition of a casehead after an over-pressure event.
http://www.armalite.com/images/Tech%20Notes/Tech%20Note%2049,%20How%20an%20AR%20Blows%20Up,%2002.01.pdf
Here’s the pic of the casehead from the article.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/as57fbidc4.jpg
Here's Derek Connor's pics from his kaboom. Look familiar?
http://www.box.net/shared/static/q8yq29x47x.jpg
Lastly, Derek Connor has already stated that the headspace issue has been ruled out. He had the head space checked and “it was fine.”
Awesome, Molon.
That quickload is cool, A buddy runs numbers for me through it from time to time.
Awesome, Molon.
That quickload is cool, A buddy runs numbers for me through it from time to time.
Just keep in mind that the parameters of the program must be adjusted to match actual measured findings for it's projections to be accurate.
Derek_Connor
04-30-09, 13:16
http://www.box.net/shared/static/as57fbidc4.jpg
Here's Derek Connor's pics from his kaboom. Look familiar?
http://www.box.net/shared/static/q8yq29x47x.jpg
Lastly, Derek Connor has already stated that the headspace issue has been ruled out. He had the head space checked and “it was fine.”
Looks like the same piece of brass...
From that PDF:
A cartridge case failure allows this high pressure gas to escape into the barrel extension, where
it flows into contact with the bolt and bolt carrier. As it expands, the gas has a larger working
surface to work on than it does inside the cartridge case. This places tremendous stresses on
the bolt and carrier.
The high pressure gas bends the front end of the extractor outward, locking it behind the locking
lugs of the barrel extension. In rare cases the barrel extension may be split.
Exactly what happened to my extractor.
Now, I'll freely admit I cannot verify w/100% that there WASN"T a bore obstruction. When this event happened, it was approximately the 22-25th round of a full 30 round PMAG.
But if I would have had a "squib" - the outcome would have been severely different I'd imagine.
So with the current info, it looks like over pressure event caused by case failure..
Molon, can you show several pressure points vs powder charge?
What many don't understand it that the pressure vs powder charge spikes up as you approach/exceed max. Each grain of powder added does not increase pressure in a linear fashion.
The idea that you cannot fit enough extra powder in the case to be dangerous is a contributing factor in many new reloaders KB's as well.
One other interesting thing I found from examining a different KB was that the barrel extension was cracked. The extractor was forced out by the brass flow and expanded into the barrel extension, cracking it all the way to the shoulder.
I ONLY DISCOVERED THE CRACK AFTER THE BARREL WAS REMOVED FROM THE UPPER!
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-30-09, 19:04
Cool thread. Way better than that CSI crap on TV.
First pic, bolt in battery, completely locked, carrier seated fully forward. Firing pin can reach the primer. Since that is a fired case in the chamber, the FP in this picture is actually to its max forward position, nestled in the firing pin dent in the primer.
Second pic, bolt in battery, completely locked, carrier retracted a bit, not fully seated, but not far enough back to have started rotating and unlocking the bolt. Firing pin is blocked from contacting the primer by a step in the carrier that stops the firing pin's flange. Again-- bolt is completely locked and FP cannot touch the primer. Misses it by a long shot, by design.
28042009/20332825741.jpg[/img]
So im guessing this is why there are very light dimples on the primer when a round is chamberd but not fired?
Given the evidence ned Christiansen provided I can't see an out of battery discharge. Thank you for taking the time to do this Ned.
Rob
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-01-09, 09:31
So im guessing this is why there are very light dimples on the primer when a round is chamberd but not fired?
Given the evidence ned Christiansen provided I can see an out of battery discharge. Thank you for taking the time to do this Ned.
Rob
I thought Ned's pics showed that an OOB fire is largely imposible? Light Dimples are from the intertia of the firing pin coming forward after the bolt is closed, right?
Just a general question, for the OOB theory to be correct, the gun would have had to double, correct? So you have a gun that doubled, then with an OOB occurance at the same time? That is some pretty slim odds, eh? Versus the chance of an overcharge.
Lostinthewoods
05-01-09, 09:34
Lot’s of erroneous information in that post. For starters Federal does not use "canister grade powders" in American Eagle and XM193 ammunition. They use commercial grade powders. Secondly, over-pressure loads well beyond proof pressures can certainly be obtained in the .223/5.56mm cartridge.
The commercial grade powders used by Federal to load XM193 are vary similar in burn rate and bulk density to canister grade H335; not exactly the same, but very similar. A virgin Lake City 5.56mm case can easily hold 31.0 grains of H335. Do you know what a typical charge weight is for XM193? A projection in QuickLoad shows that just 30.0 grains of H335 under a 55 grain FMJ bullet can generate pressures in the neighborhood of 80,000 PSI.
Sorry I used the wrong nomenclature, the point I was making was that the powder may be SIMILAR, but it IS NOT the same as H335, so your pressure chart is just a guess.
Even if it is correct, 80K chamber pressure should NOT blow the brass like in the pic.
You are basing your pressure data on SAAMI CHAMBER pressure, not NATO spec, which is measured at the CASE MOUTH, and can make a bunch of difference in CHAMBER pressure, as much as 20K psi, if I remember correctly.
Our NORMAL 5.56 mm NATO-spec loads could average over 75,000 psi CHAMBER pressure, every time you pull the trigger.
I'd guess the Armalite pic is of a reload with the wrong powder, like Mr. Christianson's pistol powder example cited above.
Again, if the ammo shot by the OP WAS a reload, all bets are off, but if it was factory ammo, I think other factors contributed to the problem.
PITA, ain't I ?
I thought Ned's pics showed that an OOB fire is largely imposible? Light Dimples are from the intertia of the firing pin coming forward after the bolt is closed, right?
Just a general question, for the OOB theory to be correct, the gun would have had to double, correct? So you have a gun that doubled, then with an OOB occurance at the same time? That is some pretty slim odds, eh? Versus the chance of an overcharge.
Typo
Supposed to read "I canT"
stupid keyboard
Sorry I used the wrong nomenclature, . . .
You allude to being some sort of expert on the subject, yet you confuse the most basic of terms.
. . . the point I was making was that the powder may be SIMILAR, but it IS NOT the same as H335, so your pressure chart is just a guess.
Reread your own words that I quoted in my previous post because you made absolutely no such point and the pressure chart is not "just a guess." It's a demonstration that the 5.56mm round can be loaded beyond "proof loads" with powders typically used for the round, as you stated that it couldn't be.
Even if it is correct, 80K chamber pressure should NOT blow the brass like in the pic.
Again, the 80K was just a demonstration that the cartridge can be loaded beyond proof loads of 70K that you stated it couldn't be. The cartridge could still hold more powder than the example I gave and with that the pressures could rise well above the 80K.
You are basing your pressure data on SAAMI CHAMBER pressure, not NATO spec,
Wrong. The parameters of the program were adjusted to match the findings of a Colt NATO chambered barrel.
which is measured at the CASE MOUTH, and can make a bunch of difference in CHAMBER pressure, as much as 20K psi, if I remember correctly.
You don't remember correctly. The often quoted figure of 15,000 PSI is for a mil-spec pressure round fired in a SAAMI chamber, not for the difference between the two measuring positions.
Our NORMAL 5.56 mm NATO-spec loads could average over 75,000 psi CHAMBER pressure, every time you pull the trigger.
Complete BS and of course you offer absolutely no scientific data to support that statement.
I'd guess the Armalite pic is of a reload with the wrong powder,
like Mr. Christianson's pistol powder example cited above.
And a guess is all it is since you have no proof to support the statement and of course you completely ignore the fact that the Armalite pics look exactly like those of Derek Connor's.
PITA, ain't I ?
No, you just post BS in a technical forum with absolutely no credible data to support it.
.....
Sorry I used the wrong nomenclature, the point I was making was that the powder may be SIMILAR, but it IS NOT the same as H335, so your pressure chart is just a guess.
Even if it is correct, 80K chamber pressure should NOT blow the brass like in the pic.
You are basing your pressure data on SAAMI CHAMBER pressure, not NATO spec, which is measured at the CASE MOUTH, and can make a bunch of difference in CHAMBER pressure, as much as 20K psi, if I remember correctly.
Our NORMAL 5.56 mm NATO-spec loads could average over 75,000 psi CHAMBER pressure, every time you pull the trigger.
I'd guess the Armalite pic is of a reload with the wrong powder, like Mr. Christianson's pistol powder example cited above.
Again, if the ammo shot by the OP WAS a reload, all bets are off, but if it was factory ammo, I think other factors contributed to the problem.
PITA, ain't I ?
POST YOUR CREDENTIALS PLEASE!
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-02-09, 03:37
Do I have a red deficiency, or is that red text really hard to read?
Jay Cunningham
05-03-09, 06:51
Let's minimize the drift and stay on-topic.
When I have seen brass fail in this manner (mabe a dozen times while in the marine Corps), it was always the result of a barrel obstruction--namely a round lodged in the bore--the result of a squib load, contaminated powder, no powder, etc. In the Service, you learn your malfunction drill so well that if in the middle of a rapid fire magazine you pull the trigger and nothing happens, you instinctively pull back on the charging handle and chamber another round and pull the trigger again, zip, zip, zip in about a second, never thinking about why the action had just failed to function normally. Then you drop the hammer onthe round you just chambered and kaboom!
Interestingly, this most often occured with L110 Tracer Ammo which had been spread-loaded with ball ammo in magazines. Had similar events with 7.62 linked ammo with ball rounds marked say WCC 71 linked 4:1 with tracers marked REM 62. This was the result of us (USMC) buying old lots of tracer ammo packed in 20-round boxes intended for the M14 Rifle from the Army "on the cheap", then inserting them into an ammo line making belted ammo for the M60.
A squib round may lodge anywhere in the bore from just outside the chamber (worst case) to down towards the muzzle (not so bad but still catastropic). This is nothing new or unique to the AR.
I remember in the olden days the FBI's spec for their revolver barels required S&W to use a bore design that if a squb load lodged a bullet in the bore but did not lock-up the cylinder (i.e., somewhere in the rifling), then the shooter could "safely" fire a second round in an emergebcy situation.
Bottom line is the AR chamber does not fully support the case head's web so as to help in reliable feeding from the magazine. So when you pop the cap on 50,000 pounds of presure something is going to give--and that is the area of brass not supported in the chamber.
Just keep in mind that the parameters of the program must be adjusted to match actual measured findings for it's projections to be accurate.
No shit... For all but one of my loads, given the correct inputs it is uncannily accurate. But for one, it is a couple hundred fps off and, by the looks of it, a few thousand PSI under. It needs a chrono and more than one loading manual to really be effective.
Derek_Connor
05-06-09, 09:33
Update:
Federal picked up the 920 rounds I had left for this LOT from my house yesterday.
I included the defective case w/it.
They informed me they would be sending me out a replacement 1k Case of ammo. Unknown ETA.
Gun is back together, haven't had a chance to shoot it yet though.
Thomas M-4
05-06-09, 09:38
Update:
Federal picked up the 920 rounds I had left for this LOT from my house yesterday.
I included the defective case w/it.
They informed me they would be sending me out a replacement 1k Case of ammo. Unknown ETA.
Gun is back together, haven't had a chance to shoot it yet though.
How was the barrel extension was it gtg ?
Glad to hear that federal worked with you on the ammo.
Derek_Connor
05-06-09, 09:45
How was the barrel extension was it gtg ?
Glad to hear that federal worked with you on the ammo.
I did not see anything obvious, but im neither an engineer or a mechanic.
beaker1013
05-06-09, 09:57
So fas, so good; you didn't get damaged through the kaboom, Federal was cool and is taking care of the ammo. I'll keep my fingers crossed for your weapon. Is there anyone near by, or anyway that it can get checked before you hit the range just to be on the side?
This is why it is absolutely IMPERATIVE to set and check the headspace.
With an AR, are you referring to a Go/No-go gauge, or using something like the Hornady L-N-L gauge that I use to determine seating depth in my bolt guns? Never really gave measuring headspacing a thought in my ARs due to the magazine limiting the length of any of my reloads.
Derek_Connor
05-06-09, 15:05
With an AR, are you referring to a Go/No-go gauge, or using something like the Hornady L-N-L gauge that I use to determine seating depth in my bolt guns? Never really gave measuring headspacing a thought in my ARs due to the magazine limiting the length of any of my reloads.
Headspace is a concern on AR barrels for sure, I would agree. Especially really hard used barrels.
Actually I use a Field gage.
With an AR, are you referring to a Go/No-go gauge, or using something like the Hornady L-N-L gauge that I use to determine seating depth in my bolt guns? Never really gave measuring headspacing a thought in my ARs due to the magazine limiting the length of any of my reloads.
exkc135driver
05-07-09, 08:52
With an AR, are you referring to a Go/No-go gauge, or using something like the Hornady L-N-L gauge that I use to determine seating depth in my bolt guns? Never really gave measuring headspacing a thought in my ARs due to the magazine limiting the length of any of my reloads.
Bullet length and seating depth determine cartridge overall length. The magazine limits the maximum cartridge OAL that can be fed through the magazine (although it does not limit the length of cartridges that are loaded one at a time). None of these dimensions has anything to do with headspace.
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