View Full Version : To rail or not to rail..
IF, you were to have 1, and only 1, 1911.... would you have it with a rail or without?
All my 1911's are Colt, so I guess I'm in the no rail camp.
Army Chief
01-01-07, 17:33
Call me old school, but I'd go without. There are still plenty of solid techniques for employing an unmounted light, when necessary. A rail adds options, but it also adds bulk and carry complications.
Chief
deadwood83
01-01-07, 18:04
Without.
Robb Jensen
01-01-07, 18:05
Sans rail.
Wow. Pretty unanimous so far. Didnt expect that.
John_Wayne777
01-01-07, 18:16
IF, you were to have 1, and only 1, 1911.... would you have it with a rail or without?
These days? I would probably go for a railed one.
If I was going to purchase a 1911 that you can find on gunstore shelves these days, it would most likely be the Kimber Warrior.
As far as I can tell it is the best production 1911 on the market right now. Even if you want it tweaked, it is reputed to be a superb platform for tweaking. The custom makers can probably use one of the Caspian rail equipped frames to make you a pistol, or they could install an after market rail like the Dawson Precision rail...
As far as the rail itself goes, these days my argument would be "Why not?" We are only going to see better and better LED handgun-mounted lights like the Surefire X200 in the future. And when using a handgun, it is certainly easier to have the light mounted to the actual weapon than to be restricted solely to the use of a separate light. Doing a reload with a flashlight in your support hand is no fun, as is malfunction clearance, etc.
It does add a bit of bulk, but holster makers these days are making good holsters that will work with railed and light mounted weapons.
I'd get(got) the little rail so it still fits in regular holsters.
I would go with no rail as well, if I ONLY had one 1911. Personally I think I need at least 3 though, so one of them will wind up with a rail.:D
If I was only going to have one, and it HAD to have the rail, it would be the Dawson.
Well, I answered in the pic thread too but I suppose that was off topic. Anyways, I like having the option, but I would go with the Dawson for 2 reasons- you can still use most standard holsters and it does not ruin the beautiful lines of the 1911 like integral ones. Oh yeah, it's usually cheaper too so there's 3 reasons ;)
If God (John Moses) had intended a 1911 to have a rail, He would've designed it with one... :D
If God (John Moses) had intended a 1911 to have a rail, He would've designed it with one... :D
:rolleyes:
What do your sights look like? Are they the same as JMB designed? Hammer?
Dawson is nice:
http://suicidehz.zoto.com/img/640x480x1/56f25ea4c4404375e759d98d5243d12c-.jpg
If I need light I just turn the lamp on next to my couch.
Does anyone know if the Dawson rail would fit into a safariland 6004 for a standard 1911.
:rolleyes:
What do your sights look like? Are they the same as JMB designed? Hammer?
note big smilie after his comment? settle down...
ON TOPIC i would definitely go without the rail
Army Chief
01-02-07, 04:12
Not bashing anyone's preferences, but I'm still of the mindset that there are very, very few applications out there for which I am going to reach for a 1911 that really needs a rail.
- I'm no longer an LEO, so it isn't like I'm going to be responding to an alarm call in some old warehouse at 0300 with nothing but a handgun at my side.
- I'm not going to to select a handgun to do my bump-in-the-night interdicting because I've got better choices (telephone, riot shotgun, carbine) available to me.
- I'm not a gamer or a Fed, so it isn't too likely I am going to find myself compelled to run house-clearing drills at dawn/dusk with a .45.
All of my Wilsons have night sights on them already, so the only reason I can see for mounting a light is target discrimination/disorientation. If that's a concern, I've got a SureFire or two (or three) handy already -- and a number of employment options.
I fully understand the complications of reloading while holding a flashlight, but let's be realistic here: how likely are any of us to find ourselves stuck in the middle of an extended firefight (a) at night, (b) with no backup and (c) with nothing but a 1911 to defend ourselves? Short of fighting off a mugging (which can be done quite nicely without a lot of illumination, since you already know you're dealing with a bad guy), I find those very, very long odds.
Now, I'm not berating the rail camp by any means, because I think these can be useful pieces of kit. I just think that some of today's "tactical" thinking has taken on some almost comical connotations for most of us. The purpose of a handgun is to fight your way back to a longarm, no? The "pistol in the offense" concept belongs to SOCOM, and even then, they haven't done much with it beyond the basics.
Maybe I'm missing the boat, but there is a difference between readiness and being mildly ridiculous. Buy a railed blaster if that's what you truly want, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort to try to find some rational, comprehensive treatise on why it is truly necessary. I don't say this with an antagonistic spirit in the slightest, but the most competent operators I've ever known (spent 10+ years at Bragg) carry some of the plainest 1911s you've ever seen.
Rails are cool. Rails are useful. Rails are versatile. But ... rails are not essential for the 99th-percentile user, and that includes me.
Chief
Amen, Chief.
If I needed a rail I would get one. I like to spend my gun money on things I NEED, like lots of practice ammo. Lately I have been taking my SF 6P to the range and doing drills with the Harries technique. Some people really need the rail. However, I will hazard that there are many rail owners take their rail gun out of the box and quietly breathe "Wooooowwww." Then put it back for another day. Or go to the range for a rigorous 50 round torture test. (It must be a torture test. They shoot so fast it only takes 15 minutes!)
Maybe I'll just buy the Kimber Warrior and grind the rail off, polish the spot and spray paint it! Its such a great gun except for that rail:D !
Not saying you dont raise some discussable points, but please, please....dont use the word "need". It makes my head twitch and I want to smash my computer. :(
What is your issue with the word "need"? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious.
I can't imagine having a gun without one.
I have an FN HiPower that I love, except it doesn't have a rail.
I see it not as a necessity, but a convience. I don't have kids, so if something goes bump in the night, it is getting my Glock pointed at it. The attached light is handy if I have to point the gun, illuminate the threat/possible threat and call the police.
What is your issue with the word "need"? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious.
I have a problem with the Gov. telling me that I dont "need" particular type of gun, or gear or whatever. Then it carries over into other gun owners saying that we dont "need" a particular type of gun or gear. Duck hunters start saying I dont "need" my Eagle plate carrier. People start saying that I dont "need" to take a particular training class, this, that, or the other, just because they themselves dont have a "need" for it. This, when they dont know who I am or what I may or may not want to do with it. Only you know what you "need". I always try to be clear myself when discussing things with people, why I do or do not use a particular item, based on what I want to accomplish with it. Then they can decide for themselves whether they "need" it or not. I just think its a slippery slope with a 50 gal drum of owl sqeeze spread all over it that gun owners especially shouldnt tread on.
Govt. mandated disclaimer - The above is not said in a malicious or otherwise unpleasant tone and is mearly to explain my thoughts and reasons. :)
John_Wayne777
01-02-07, 09:20
I fully understand the complications of reloading while holding a flashlight, but let's be realistic here: how likely are any of us to find ourselves stuck in the middle of an extended firefight (a) at night, (b) with no backup and (c) with nothing but a 1911 to defend ourselves? Short of fighting off a mugging (which can be done quite nicely without a lot of illumination, since you already know you're dealing with a bad guy), I find those very, very long odds.
I would point out here that the odds of actually needing to pull the trigger in the first place are pretty long...
But we spend lots of time trying to be equipped for that unlikely event. :D
The moment where we have to draw a firearm and pull the trigger is not a moment where things are going our way. The ability to have a light mounted to your handgun can make for one less complication in what will be a very complicated and unpleasant point in your life.
Thus I would go for the rail.
That being said, there is a Les Baer 1911 on my right hip right now, and I am not rushing out to get a rail mounted to it.
If I buy another 1911, however, I will most likely get a railed one. I have done lots of training in the use of flashlights with a handgun, but even with the best techniques you are pretty much restricted to operating your weapon with one hand if you want to use the light. Having both hands free to operate the weapon is enormously helpful.
My current technique is what I learned from an Anchorage PD officer: Multiple flashlights. I carry 2 or three of them on me and if I need both hands on my weapon, (for a reload or malfunction clearance, etc) I will simply drop the light, do what I need to do, and then grab another flashlight from my belt/vest and continue on.
Lots of bad stuff happens in the dark. At home I have an AR-15 with a powerful SureFire light mounted to it that is ready to go....But I don't have the luxury of packing that rifle wherever I go. The threats that we are going to face when we are not all geared up like a SWAT ninja are going to be close, quick, and nasty. We are going to be forced to respond with whatever we have on us at the moment. That could be a basic mugger, or it could be something a lot worse. You never know.
That's why I carry a backup handgun and backup flashlights. Yes, I might not ever use the extra capability. But I know if things go to crud on me, I won't have a chance to equip myself...I will be stuck with what I have at the moment.
Derek_Connor
01-02-07, 09:32
yes, I would choose a railed 1911. Dawson if I had a choice...
I can't imagine having a gun without one.
I will have to agree with Dport, especially if it's going to be your one and only 1911.
Why not?
Holsters for light railed 1911's are readily available now days. The rail itself also makes no difference for concealed carry. Bearing this in mind why give up the versatility?
IMO - Pick up an integral light railed 1911 and call it a day.
My integral light railed 1911 holsters:
(1.) Milt-Sparks VMII for IWB concealed carry (No light)
(2.) Blade-Tech belt holster (No Light)
(3.) Blade-Tech belt holster w/ Tec-Lok (No Light ) that works on every belt I own.
(4.) 6004 w/X200 for special occasions.
"If I needed a rail I would get one. I like to spend my gun money on things I NEED, like lots of practice ammo. Lately I have been taking my SF 6P to the range and doing drills with the Harries technique. Some people really need the rail." -my previous quote with qualifiers in bold
Just to clarify I was talking about my needs and gave a nod to the fact that some people do indeed need them. I understand bristling at the idea of people telling you what you need. I feel the same way myself, but it is more directed to the members of the Liberal forums I post on to do battle with our "other" enemies. I consider members of this forum to be kindred spirits (until they prove otherwise) and had I made a similar statement without the qualifiers, it would only be a nuance. Thanks for clarifying and I hope I have done the same.
David Thomas
01-02-07, 10:44
Only one?
If I were limited to one 1911, I would opt for one without an integral light rail.
I'd take a Colt with the Dawson rail. Doesn't add much size or weight, doesn't hamper concealability and it does give you the option. Doesn't mean you still wouldn't practice more traditional light techniques but if you need it, it's there. But who the hell can limit themselves to one 1911.....that's absurd!
Glockster35
01-02-07, 12:23
I have three pistols that I shoot often. Only one of them has a light rail, and it is not a 1911.
The only reason I have the one with the rail is because it was not an option (Glock 35). I have never mounted a light to it.
I do want to add a Dawson Rail to my 1911 in the future, but right now it is not required. I carry a SureFire Z2 when I pack a pistol. I just haven't made it a priority to add a light to a pistol, as I am not sure how to conceal somethign like that comfortably!
Army Chief
01-02-07, 12:47
Upon further reflection, I reject the entire premise of this thread. How on earth is it realistic to expect a man to limit himself to only one 1911? :D :D
Chief
Upon further reflection, I reject the entire premise of this thread. How on earth is it realistic to expect a man to limit himself to only one 1911? :D :D
Chief
Simple. Be married with a house payment, two vehicle payments, two kids in private school, and two dogs (among other things). ;)
Army Chief
01-02-07, 13:00
Brother, I'm married, paying astronomical rent in Europe, making payments on a BMW M car, three kids in private school, and have two young Dachshunds ...
... but yes, I completely understand what you're saying. :)
Chief
John_Wayne777
01-02-07, 13:48
Simple. Be married with a house payment, two vehicle payments, two kids in private school, and two dogs (among other things). ;)
Pooblik Skool is just az goood.
I went tu pooblik skoool four like 17 yeers, and me am very much smart.
K.L. Davis
01-02-07, 13:57
I would get one with a rail... then sell it and buy two tupperguns.
...and new tires for my truck, a widescreen TV, pick up pizza from the expensive place on 6th Street, get the wife something nice, get the dog a new chew toy, give that homless guy by the train station fifty bucks, and hide the left over cash in the secret hollow spot in the bottom of the porcelain cow on the kitchen counter.
*inside joke for Hawk :p
K.L. Davis
01-02-07, 13:59
Brother, I'm married, paying astronomical rent in Europe, making payments on a BMW M car, three kids in private school, and have two young Dachshunds ...
... but yes, I completely understand what you're saying. :)
Chief
But you're a Dubbya-4 :eek:
Think of us poor enlisted slobs... I tried to go Warrant, but they would not take me due to a problem with my back.
There is a bone in it!
Thank you folks, I'll be here all week... don't forget to try the veal...
I would get one with a rail... then sell it and buy two tupperguns.
...and new tires for my truck, a widescreen TV, pick up pizza from the expensive place on 6th Street, get the wife something nice, get the dog a new chew toy, give that homless guy by the train station fifty bucks, and hide the left over cash in the secret hollow spot in the bottom of the porcelain cow on the kitchen counter.
*inside joke for Hawk :p
Yeah yeah, I gotcha.... :cool:
But you're a Dubbya-4 :eek:
Think of us poor enlisted slobs... I tried to go Warrant, but they would not take me due to a problem with my back.
There is a bone in it!
Thank you folks, I'll be here all week... don't forget to try the veal...
:eek:
:rolleyes:
:D
Army Chief
01-02-07, 15:35
Think of us poor enlisted slobs... I tried to go Warrant, but they would not take me due to a problem with my back.
There is a bone in it!
Uh, I think I just peed in my pants a little there from laughing so hard. :rolleyes:
Actually, I was enlisted for six years. Finally, just before Gulf War I, they came up and asked me outright, "look kid, you're a good soldier, but do you want to have to use your brawn for the rest of your career, or would you rather use your brains -- maybe go to OCS or something?"
Took me about a half-second to come back with, "well, quite honestly, I don't really feel much like using either one."
So they made me a Warrant Officer. Bwahahahaaaaa.
Chief
I feel that in order for any pistol to even be "relevant" in todays day and age it must have at least two rails. It is useless otherwise.
K.L. Davis
01-02-07, 20:42
Uh, I think I just peed in my pants a little there from laughing so hard. :rolleyes:
Actually, I was enlisted for six years. Finally, just before Gulf War I, they came up and asked me outright, "look kid, you're a good soldier, but do you want to have to use your brawn for the rest of your career, or would you rather use your brains -- maybe go to OCS or something?"
Took me about a half-second to come back with, "well, quite honestly, I don't really feel much like using either one."
So they made me a Warrant Officer. Bwahahahaaaaa.
Chief
Radio call received at a control tower, "What time is it?"
Tower responds, "Who is calling?"
The aircraft replies, "What difference does it make?"
Tower replies, "It makes a lot of difference. If you’re an commercial flight, it is 3 o'clock. If you’re an Air Force plane, it is 1500 hours. If you’re a Navy aircraft, it is 6 bells. If you’re a Marine Corps aircraft, the big hand is on the 12 and the little hand is on the 3. But if you’re an Army aircraft, it's Thursday afternoon and two hours till "Happy Hour!!!"
If you’re a Navy aircraft, it is 6 bells.
I like that joke for no other reason than they got the number of bells right!
Radio call received at a control tower, "What time is it?"
Tower responds, "Who is calling?"
The aircraft replies, "What difference does it make?"
Tower replies, "It makes a lot of difference. If you’re an commercial flight, it is 3 o'clock. If you’re an Air Force plane, it is 1500 hours. If you’re a Navy aircraft, it is 6 bells. If you’re a Marine Corps aircraft, the big hand is on the 12 and the little hand is on the 3. But if you’re an Army aircraft, it's Thursday afternoon and two hours till "Happy Hour!!!"
This joke is such BS. We Marines all use digital watches- the kind with the hands just confuse us...
K.L. Davis
01-02-07, 21:11
I like that joke for no other reason than they got the number of bells right!
Yah never know huh?
I got nothin' better to do I guess, sitting here at six bells on the dog watch ;)
Pacific Time that is...
Yah never know huh?
I got nothin' better to do I guess, sitting here at six bells on the dog watch ;)
Pacific Time that is...
Switch to five and dimes, hold early chow, and there's no need to dog the watch.;) :D
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