Lessons about Wolf ammo - pic heavy

[CarlosDJackal]

Last weekend I attended a Viking Tactics (http://www.vikingtactics.com/) Carbine 1.5 Class. The Primary Instructor was retired SGM Kyle Lamb, President and CEO of Viking Tactics. SGM Lamb spent most of his military service as part of the non-existent US Army unit that specialized in performing super-secret Black Operations all over the world. In fact, he was on of the hockey-helmet wearing Operators involved in the incident in Mogadishu, Somalia that was depicted in "Blackhawk Down". His Assisiant Instructor was "Talkative Dan" (a name we gave him because of he only spoke when necessary).

Here is a sample of one of the drills we did in this class: http://www.vikingtactics.com/pop-instr_video11.html

In this 3-day class, I ended up shooting more than 1,200-rounds, almost 600-rounds of that during the first day alone. Unfortunately, I was using Wolf polymer for that first day and everything went fine until about the 500th round. That's when I experienced my first stuck case during one of the high-round count drills (multiple targets). It was so stuck that a piece of the STEEL case was tirn right off. I pulled myself off the line and rod the case out.

First Stuck case:
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w169/CarlosDJackal/TD1-P4180071.jpg

I went back onto the line and experienced a second one soon after. This one would not come no matter what I did and resulted in me having to switch to my other SBR (LMT MK 18 upper) for the last two magazines worth. I had to soak the stuck case in "Carbob Killer" for more than 4-hours before I could get it to loosen enough to be able to knock it out using a cleaning rod and a hammer.

Second stuck case (after successful removal):
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w169/CarlosDJackal/WolfCaseFailure.jpg

I was amazed on just how much gunk I had to clean out both from the bolt and the chamber!! I can't believe just how much crap those Wolf rounds leave behind.
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w169/CarlosDJackal/500-roundsofWolf.jpg

I finished the rest of the class using a mixture of brass-cased ammo without a single issue. What is curious was the fact that there were other shooters in the class who also shot Wolf but did not experience the same issues. However, there were others who did experience problems similar to what I experienced to include one who was shooting 5.45x39 ammo (curiously, his barrel would ring/resonate after each last shot). The biggest difference was that those who did not have any problems actually took the time to lean and lube their rifles (at least the chambers) during the short breaks.

The good news is that the chrome bolt and extractor combination I installed in my rifle worked very well!! So well that it actually ripped a piece right off two steel-cased rims. The bad news is either I have a very tight chamber (doubtful after over 9,000-rounds through it) or I have a rough chamber (quite possible).

After I got back, I did a complete and thorough cleaning of the whole rifle. Yesterday I let a couple of people shoot a total of 40-rounds of Polymer Wolf through it. When I got home, I inspected it to determine just dirty this ammo is. Below are the results.

After 40-rounds of Wolf:
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w169/CarlosDJackal/40RDSofWolf.jpg

LESSONS LEARNED:

- Using dirty ammo like Wolf negates the advantages of using a gas piston system in terms of reliability and reduced maintenance. One should clean and lubricate the chamber (at least) every chance they can.

- Chrome extractors with black rubber inserts and Wolff power extractor springs work as advertised!!

- The VTAC Carbine 1.5 class is well worth the time and money. So much so that I am hoping to retake the same class next year. In thi class SGM Lamb will force anyone who has taken a Basic Carbine Course well out of their comfort level. I highly recommend it to anyone who has taken a Level 1 Carbine class.

[The_War_Wagon]

Good lesson for the rest of us - sounds like you learned one in the process as well!

I've NEVER been keen about polymer-coated ammo - even IN a piston gun (that's my POF in the avatar). I have some (500 rounds of) Barnaul Silver Bear (that's as cheap as I was willing to go!), as my "last-stand/bottom-of-the-barrel" ammo, but that's where it's gonna STAY, until such time.

I just scraped 300 rounds of Privi residue off of my M&P15T, and it's pretty dirty stuff too. Hard to say which lesson's most important - what to do at such a course when the rifle's working, or what to do, once it STOPS mid-lesson!

[RD62]

Carlos,

Is that an LWRC upper pictured?

-RD62

[Heavy Metal]

It's still the primer selant thats the culprit. You can see it migrating into your chamber.

[Copis]

My theory (which is based on limited experience) is that piston driven guns do not get warm enough to liquify the red stuff found in Wolf. DI guns heat up the lacquer to the point where it doesn't wreak as much havoc to the feeding and extracting of rounds

anybody agree?

[CarlosDJackal]

Carlos,

Is that an LWRC upper pictured?

-RD62

Yes. It's an 10.5-inch LWRC M6A1 upper that has just over 9,000-rounds.

I failed to add that bcause we were running a hot range, I did have to leave the gun loaded in between strings but was able to unload it during the breaks (which did not make much difference).

[CarlosDJackal]

It's still the primer selant thats the culprit. You can see it migrating into your chamber.

Yup. In the last photo, you can also see how much of it is making its way into the ejector channel and under the extractor after just 40-rounds!!

[ZDL]

Good lesson for the rest of us - sounds like you learned one in the process as well!

I've NEVER been keen about polymer-coated ammo - even IN a piston gun (that's my POF in the avatar). I have some (500 rounds of) Barnaul Silver Bear (that's as cheap as I was willing to go!), as my "last-stand/bottom-of-the-barrel" ammo, but that's where it's gonna STAY, until such time.

I just scraped 300 rounds of Privi residue off of my M&P15T, and it's pretty dirty stuff too. Hard to say which lesson's most important - what to do at such a course when the rifle's working, or what to do, once it STOPS mid-lesson!

Hadn't heard Privi was dirty. Interesting. Have a case headed this way now. I'll pay attention.

Wolf is some dirty $#%$ no doubt.

[G-lock]

Was this Black Box or Military Classic?? I just pulled my M4 out and looked at the bolt and chamber after about 200 rounds of Wolf since last cleaning and it looked nothing like you pics. Interestiing stuff, bad batch maybe?

Jeff

[CreatorsRage]

My post copied from FALFiles. Im not the only one.
I know this doesnt pertain to AR's but could happen to an AR10. Wolf .308 should only be used in bolt guns IMHO.
Others have experienced this.

So last weekend I go a good deal on some Wolf 308. Went out to the desert for some varminting but the weather didnt cooperate enough to blast the FAL alot. I actually only shot 10 rounds of the Wolf and it worked fine except for a couple of the primers popped out of the casings. So yesterday my brother in law and I headed out to the local public range. I had 1 round in a mag so I inserted it and pulled the trigger. We've all seen the pics. The casing stayed in the chamber and the back of the casing blew off. It blew the guts out of the mag swelling the mag body and was quite scary. One heck of a percussion and some bits in my face. Anyways im ok, the rifle is ok, the mag is now a few spare parts (never did find the floor plate). Here's some pics. Gunna go back and trade this stuff in. Perhaps some pics sent to Wolf are in order.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b133/creator0203/DSC00788.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b133/creator0203/DSC00789.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b133/creator0203/DSC00790.jpg
Pic of the bolt and extractor. Seems to be fine.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b133/creator0203/DSC00792.jpg

Lot# 023-06
No date

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b133/creator0203/DSC00794.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b133/creator0203/DSC00798.jpg

Link to the thread (hope its alright, very informal)
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=203947&perpage=50&pagenumber=2

[thopkins22]

Hadn't heard Privi was dirty. Interesting. Have a case headed this way now. I'll pay attention.

While it isn't "clean," Privi isn't terribly dirty. I shot 800+ at a course earlier this year and his pictures of 40rds of wolf look worse than my gun after 800. I did clean the chamber after day one, and I don't have chomed bolts so maybe it shows up more readily in his pictures.

There were specks of sealant visible in the chamber...but nothing like that.

[Parabellum9x19mm]

thank you for posting.

[luxor]

Carlos,

I will ride up and give you a class on how to keep your guns running :D

Larry.

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

thanks for posting.

Do you think the tightness of the tolerinces in your upper make the wolf ammo less reliable?

I only as beacuse I ran my own little test about 3 years ago with a STAG upper and it went over 1000rds with wolf before I had a jam.

[Robb Jensen]

Carlos,

If you want I can check the chamber to see if it's truly a 5.56mm NATO chamber and if not I can ream it to 5.56mm NATO. Guns that I've reamed to 5.56mm NATO run better with Wolf that those with slightly tighter chamber. The checker and reamer are from Ned Christiansen.

Later,
Robb

[Heavy Metal]

I think the smoothness of the chamber makes a difference.

I use JB paste and polish the chambers of my AR's with a .40 caliber bore mop chucked in a drill.

This seems to help. Do not bump the shoulder of the the chamber.

[CarlosDJackal]

Was this Black Box or Military Classic?? I just pulled my M4 out and looked at the bolt and chamber after about 200 rounds of Wolf since last cleaning and it looked nothing like you pics. Interestiing stuff, bad batch maybe?

JEff

This was Wolf Classic (light-brown in color).

Rob,

I might take you up on this the next time I manage to make it to your AO.

[ST911]

Wolf = False Economy

Pass.

[vaspence]

I was at the class and running Wolf also. No issues. I started with a clean rifle, then cleaned again after the first day. This caused me a little bit of issue. Normally I don't clean the gun during a class period unless I have cause to. I fell to peer pressure on the first evening and cleaned the gun but did not lube as normal thinking I'd do it in the morning. On TD 2 I forgot about it until we had a few extraction issues with it. Luckily these happened during the malfunction portion of the class so we got a little extra practice. At lunch I lubed as normal and didn't clean the gun again, still haven't. I normally lube each morning and again at lunch during a class. Luxor was shooting Wolf through a BCM and he did break the gun down at lunch every day.

My thoughts when Carlos had his problem and another gun had a problem (Bushmaster I believe) with Wolf is that perhaps the chambers are tight. I'm no AR expert, I just shoot the mofos but it would be interesting to see how they check out. Carlos if you get the chamber checked let us know what you find. FWIW my gun is a N4, I've also run Wolf in my BCM. The N4 has about 2400 rounds of Wolf Black Box 55 grain through it in two 3 day classes over the last month.

Wolf = False Economy? Not here and I'd love to see the price stay under $300. Every 5th case is another class. I do reserve the right to crawfish up and recant if I start having issues though :o

[luxor]

All joking aside ( don't shoot me Carlos ) I did run wolf in my rifle with no problems.

I have run wolf in several classes with no issues except one, and that was with a stag arms upper.

As stated the first day was the highest round count, so i completely broke the gun down after day one and gave a complete cleaning.

The second and third day i just wiped off the bolt, ran a bore snake through the barrel and wiped out the chamber. Then re lubed. This was also done every day at lunch. I kind of follow the mantra, guns, gear, chow in that order.

My upper did look like Carlos upper when i went to clean it. Very dirty and lots of the red stuff.

I am not saying that wolf is great ammo, but i believe that it can be used in classes if you follow some rules for lack of a better term.

Always check to make sure sure your chambers are true 5.56. Don't take the manufactures word for it. go get Rob or someone to check it.

Always use good bolts with good extractors.

And clean and lube your gun. This has been stated so many times i throw up when i hear it. In these classes you are shooting three mabey four times a normal combat load out in one day. It only takes about 10 or 15 minutes at lunch to wipe the bolt down, wipe out chamber and barrel, re lube.

Larry.

[NCPatrolAR]

I've been using Wolf 223 and 7.62x39 for several years now without any major issues. When I have experienced problems it's occured when I haven't cleaned the gun after several thousand rounds.

[RogerinTPA]

After reading various, "I hate Wolf" threads, the culprit seems to be with manufacturers providing 223 chambers and stamping 5.56 on the gun. Stay away from purchasing from the right side of the "chart", or get your chambers reemed to 5.56, and you'll be fine.

My cleaning schedule is every 2500 to 3K rounds fired, almost exclusively with Wolf. Just lubing before shooting, for years. Not one problem.

Ammo prices are at such an astronomical price, we would not have ever considered purchasing it as little as a year ago, at today's prices. It's good ammo in my book and allows me to continue training, which is the most important factor, at least for me.

[Bimmer]

The bad news is either I have a very tight chamber (doubtful after over 9,000-rounds through it) or I have a rough chamber (quite possible).


Or maybe just a really dirty chamber... the black spots on the outside of that case halfway in/out of the chamber is carbon fouling.

I don't pretend to know much about this (and I only shoot brass), but the Box o' Truth did a bit on this a while ago.
The problem with steel cases is that they don't expand to seal at the throat, so they let all powder fouling back into the chamber.
A dirty chamber means stuck cases.

Bimmer

[mmike87]

I shoot Wolf primarily for plinking, and try and keep the fire rate down to keep it from getting too hot. I have not had any problems, yet - and just assume the risk in exchange for being able to shoot more.

[CarlosDJackal]

Or maybe just a really dirty chamber... the black spots on the outside of that case halfway in/out of the chamber is carbon fouling.

I don't pretend to know much about this (and I only shoot brass), but the Box o' Truth did a bit on this a while ago.
The problem with steel cases is that they don't expand to seal at the throat, so they let all powder fouling back into the chamber.
A dirty chamber means stuck cases.

Bimmer

I am inclined to agree with you. I let the chamber get fouled too much. I have a different philosophy when attending courses. I try to push myself and my equipment because only then can I find the limits of both. So I tend not to clean the gun unless I absolutely have to.

I now know the limitations of shooting Wolf, whether lacquer or polymer covered case. I also know that even when just plinking with this ammo, I really have to stay on top of it and clean it more often.

IMHO, these courses provide the best opportunity to really find out what works and what doesn't. YMMV.

[rob_s]

I would very much like to see the results of the chamber reaming.

I'm another Wolf shooter, and happily so. My Colts and BCM eat it all day long.

[Saginaw79]

I would very much like to see the results of the chamber reaming.

I'm another Wolf shooter, and happily so. My Colts and BCM eat it all day long.


+1 but Armalite and Bushmaster and a franken gun

[RCK]

Wrote this a month or so ago, but a friend agreed it would be a good addition to this thread...

Nice day today and I am semi caught up so I took a couple of hours and
snuck off to the range. Windy, 40s and sunny. So mild by our standards.
The ammo was Russian Brown Bear. 62 gr. FMJ and lacquered steel case.
The rifle is a CMMG mid length upper I picked up last winter on top of
my collapsible stock CMMG AR-15 lower. The lower is a known good one,
but the upper took a bit to break in. The inner surfaces of the upper
receiver have plenty of tool marks showing that is was machined too
fast in these feeding frenzy times. The upper has balked with prior
use of the Brown Bear when lubed with Break Free at about 100 rds.
Squirting in more oil of any kind has got it running like a top again
without any cleaning. Inspection showed that the heavy powder fouling
dried out the Breakfree leading to the stoppages.
Magazines were known good Magpul Pmags.

The rifle was degreased with M Pro-7, a water based surfactant type
cleaner, about a week ago in anticipation of trying this last weekend.
After degreasing it was lubed with Pennzoil 10W-30 motor oil from a
roughly decade old bottle I found in the pantry. Originally I was
going to used oil from the dipstick of my truck, but it was
blizzarding and there was very little oil on the dip stick. (Yes I
have plenty in the truck, it just ran off when pulling the dipstick
out.) I lubed the gun by slobbering it all over the innards to include
inside the bolt carrier group and on the bolt itself. I.E. fairly
heavily, but best current practice.

The firing regime was to fire 60 rounds and pull the gun apart to
inspect.

For the first 60 rds I did warm up drills but didn't push the rifle
hard. A looking inside the ejection port shows it relatively
clean and wet with oil

The next 180 rds consisted of pushing the rifle ever harder. I
continued to pull it apart ever 60 rds and the insides were still wet
with oil to include the bolt carrier group (BCG). By round 180 the
barrel was hot enough to melt a plastic laundry basket I leaned it on
in the back of the truck while looking at the BCG.

For the last 60 rds, to take it to 240 rds total, I pushed the rounds
out as fast as I could pull the trigger.
Before I forget, throughout this test there were absolutely NO
malfunctions of the rifle.

I decided to end the test at 240 rds since nothing was happening of
note and ammo is dear these days. I pulled the BCG and inspected
inside the receiver. Still wet. The BCG components themselves were
were everywhere except where I was holding them to take them apart. I
had on gloves since they were hot and the gloves soaked up some oil.

First impressions?
- You can definitely lube a demanding firearm with 10W-30. It holds up
to the hot gas and all.
- The detergent nature of modern motor oil can't be hurting matters.
- The use of motor oil may well be the trick to reliably using Russian
ammo in ARs without regularly dosing it with a drink of oil. Given a regularly cleaned NATO spec chamber of course.

[Razorhunter]

Hey Carlos,
What do you mean when you say "Chrome extractors with black rubber inserts and Wolff power extractor springs work as advertised!!"


I mean, what difference did you notice with a chrome extractor? I doubt a chrome extractor is going to make any difference by itself, but I suppose I could be wrong about that.
Were you meaning to say "Chrome BCG's"??? I always thought chrome BCG's might help a LITTLE, via the fact that they are slick, and carbon fouling might have a slightly more difficult time adhering to the slick chrome surface. However, I know it WILL stick to chrome quite easily still... Please explain?
Also, what brand of chrome bolt or bcg/etc were you using????

[Razorhunter]

I think the smoothness of the chamber makes a difference.

I use JB paste and polish the chambers of my AR's with a .40 caliber bore mop chucked in a drill.

This seems to help. Do not bump the shoulder of the the chamber.

Heavy Metal,

What do you mean by the "shoulder" of the chamber? Do you mean the shoulder INSIDE, up near the FRONT of the chamber, just before the rifling starts???
IOW's, you are not referring to the 90 degree "shoulder" at the rear, where the tail end of the casing is, and where the bbl extension opens up to the lug area are you???
Why do you say not to bump the shoulder of the chamber? I mean, I realize you wouldn't want to "deform" the shoulder of the chamber, but would a slight bump with a mop and some JB paste actually hurt the shoulder???

[DRich]

I've run nothing but poly Wolf in the last several carbine classes I've taken. My Sabre M4 eats it like candy. No ammo related issues even when shooting 1k+ rounds in two days. I just keep the BCG wet (same as I do for any other ammo) and it will run all day long.

Wolf is dirty and smells like crap, but it works well for me and I don't have to waste my "good ammo" or lose the brass in training classes.

[variablebinary]

So far my LWRC and XCR have both gobbled up Wolf and never had an issue,

though I try to give them a wipe down every 1000 rounds or so to get the gunk out the chamber.

[panzerr]

Thanks for the pictures...it's great to see pictures of what crappy ammo can do rather -it lends so much more to the argument than "wolf sucks".

[30 cal slut]

FWIW...

I ran the class with Carlos with two piston guns (a Bushy /POG Gen I) and Colt MTC M4 modded with an Adam Arms retrofit kit. The Bushy got most of the round count abuse on TD1.

Ammo was Prvi Partisan 62 grain .223 (not 5.56).

Both guns ran flawlessly on this ammo (ZERO FTF's, ZERO FTE's!) and I did not notice any outsized dirtiness at all.

Interim maintenance between drills sometimes was a wet swab through the bore, and a dash of militec on the BCG before each day started.

[kaiservontexas]

I use Prvi Partizan .223Rem 62 grain with no problems.

I have never used Wolf ammunition in my AR-15 rifles. I have been tempted to, but I keep seeing love hate relationship threads with regards to the AR-15 and Wolf ammo.