View Full Version : 12 Gauge Buckshot and Slugs...
Glock17JHP
04-27-09, 13:34
People,
I did some informal testing with a couple of different 12 gauge 00 buckshot loads a while back (patterning, mostly), and then I just did some informal penetration testing with a couple of different slugs this past weekend (firing them through square aluminum metal tubing, aircraft aluminum plate metal, a steel automobile wheel and a car door). I am preparing to post pictures on this thread, as long as 'Photobucket' will work for me.
Does anyone have gelatin penetration data for different 12 gauge 00 buck or slug loads besides some of the older data that has been out for a while? I would also be interested in data for some of the ruduced recoil loads in both buckshot and slugs as well. My recent testing has me doing some more 'thinking' again... :confused:
Wayne Dobbs
04-28-09, 10:34
PM out to you on this.
WD
Glock17JHP
04-28-09, 15:18
Appreciate the data... keep it coming, folks!!!
You can never have too much GOOD data... :D
Wayne... did you send the FBI data? If not, I have it on a flash drive at home and can send tomorrow.
DrJSW
I am betting that your testing, like mine, dispelled a lot of the myth that buckshot and slugs (excluding Breneke, etc.) are great penetrators of cover. I have found OO buckshot penetration to be inferior to almost any handgun round tested by me from 9mm 147gr to .45ACP JHP's in hard targets.
Wayne Dobbs
05-04-09, 08:47
Well...the hard target penetration of 00 buckshot may be lacking, but the soft target penetration is past excellent. While shotguns and buckshot have been overwhelmed by the AR revolution, they remain extremely effective on human targets.
I am betting that your testing, like mine, dispelled a lot of the myth that buckshot and slugs (excluding Breneke, etc.) are great penetrators of cover. I have found OO buckshot penetration to be inferior to almost any handgun round tested by me from 9mm 147gr to .45ACP JHP's in hard targets.
And that makes perfect sense intuitively. Buckshot consists of projectiles that are smaller and lighter than a pistol bullet, have lower sectional density, and generally do not have a durable metal jacket around them. They are moving at roughly the same speed (perhaps slightly faster) as a pistol bullet so that factor is a wash.
And that makes perfect sense intuitively. Buckshot consists of projectiles that are smaller and lighter than a pistol bullet, have lower sectional density, and generally do not have a durable metal jacket around them. They are moving at roughly the same speed (perhaps slightly faster) as a pistol bullet so that factor is a wash.
I just wish the AR guys grasped that one. I have put a 5.56 55gr FMJ through about 5x as much pine board as a OO buck pellet. The OO Buck load is a great indoor load imho.
People,
I did some informal testing with a couple of different 12 gauge 00 buckshot loads a while back (patterning, mostly), and then I just did some informal penetration testing with a couple of different slugs this past weekend (firing them through square aluminum metal tubing, aircraft aluminum plate metal, a steel automobile wheel and a car door). I am preparing to post pictures on this thread, as long as 'Photobucket' will work for me.
Does anyone have gelatin penetration data for different 12 gauge 00 buck or slug loads besides some of the older data that has been out for a while? I would also be interested in data for some of the ruduced recoil loads in both buckshot and slugs as well. My recent testing has me doing some more 'thinking' again... :confused:
Pics of various shot/buck/slug into Gel
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958
:D
Glock17JHP
05-04-09, 13:37
I am betting that your testing, like mine, dispelled a lot of the myth that buckshot and slugs (excluding Breneke, etc.) are great penetrators of cover. I have found OO buckshot penetration to be inferior to almost any handgun round tested by me from 9mm 147gr to .45ACP JHP's in hard targets.
I have found in previous testing that most any 1-ounce 'Foster' slug will penetrate barriers fine... almost as good as the Brennekes, in fact!!! However, in tissue/gelatin, the Brennekes penetrate deeper.
I tested 4 different 9mm 147 grain HP's against the car door, and all 4 penetrated all the way through with no trouble. I did not have them go into gelatin after the door, though. However, the door does have 2 layers...
BTW, what do all of you think of Federal's 'Flight Control' Buckshot loads? I would NOT want them for home defense.
Pics of various shot/buck/slug into Gel
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958
:D
Isn't that link to tacticalshotgun.ca the one in which the gel calibration/testing procedures were suspect and thus the data unreliable?
It may have been. I just liked the pretty pictures.
:D
Mirrors my thoughts on shotguns.
Birdshot for little birdies
Buckshot for people sized predators
Slugs for livestock sized animals.
Beyond 35 yards, drop the scattergun and grab a rifle.
:D
It may have been. I just liked the pretty pictures.
:D
Mirrors my thoughts on shotguns.
Birdshot for little birdies
Buckshot for people sized predators
Slugs for livestock sized animals.
Beyond 35 yards, drop the scattergun and grab a rifle.
:D
I agree with everything but the 35 yard sentiment. I am still getting 70-90%+ patterns on 14x16" targets with OOO buck and a MOD choke at that distance, not to mention slugs can reach out to 100 yards with ease after a bit of practice.
BTW, what do all of you think of Federal's 'Flight Control' Buckshot loads?
The reduced recoil 9-pellet load is outstanding. The full power 9-pellet loads exhibit a donut pattern at 20+ yds from my 870P.
I would NOT want them for home defense.
And why not? :confused:
The reduced recoil 9-pellet load is outstanding. The full power 9-pellet loads exhibit a donut pattern at 20+ yds from my 870P.
And why not? :confused:
Very similar to what I observed with Hornady and their version of the FC wad. At 15 yards it produced patterns the size of my fist. At 20 yards, a few stray pellets hit the 14x16" paper.
I don't know if it was a donut pattern or not, but it was a piss poor pattern whatever it was. Had the target been larger maybe I would have been able to tell.
Still, a 00 pellet at 1600FPS sounded cool, so I bought some.
I agree with everything but the 35 yard sentiment. I am still getting 70-90%+ patterns on 14x16" targets with OOO buck and a MOD choke at that distance, not to mention slugs can reach out to 100 yards with ease after a bit of practice.
Mod choke helps. Greatly.
My Cyl bore is really opening up at that range.
Very similar to what I observed with Hornady and their version of the FC wad. At 15 yards it produced patterns the size of my fist. At 20 yards, a few stray pellets hit the 14x16" paper.
IIRC, Hornady licensed the FliteControl wad from Federal for their TAP brand. The Hornady and Federal loads pattern identically.
I don't know if it was a donut pattern or not, but it was a piss poor pattern whatever it was. Had the target been larger maybe I would have been able to tell.
The "donut" pattern is a dispersion of pellets away from the center of the pattern -- resulting in only a few pellets in the center of the pattern. The size of the patterns are very similar between the full power and the reduced recoil loads. The reduced recoil loads have a very uniform spread within their pattern, though.
IIRC, Hornady licensed the FliteControl wad from Federal for their TAP brand. The Hornady and Federal loads pattern identically.
The "donut" pattern is a dispersion of pellets away from the center of the pattern -- resulting in only a few pellets in the center of the pattern. The size of the patterns are very similar between the full power and the reduced recoil loads. The reduced recoil loads have a very uniform spread within their pattern, though.
I am familiar with donut pattern, but with so few pellets on my target, it was impossible for me to say if it was a donut pattern with a huge hole, or just a total crap pattern. I think it was just total junk. Out to 15 yards it performed as it should though! A few yards apst that, and a lucky hit or 2 on the 14x16 was all I saw.
Glock17JHP
05-05-09, 13:17
Pics of various shot/buck/slug into Gel
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958
:D
I don't trust the data shown... one example is the #4 Buckshot (Federal) that supposedly went 14.5 inches in gelatin (was it properly calibrated?).
#4 Buckshot typically penetrates less than 12 inches... :confused:
Glock17JHP
05-05-09, 13:23
The reduced recoil 9-pellet load is outstanding. The full power 9-pellet loads exhibit a donut pattern at 20+ yds from my 870P.
And why not? :confused:
For LE I understand wanting a tight pattern...
For HD, I want a more open pattern. The load I prefer is a 12 pellet 00 Buck load that is about 100 FPS slower than typical 9 pellet loads... and patterns at 2, 4, 7, 11 and 15 inches at 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50 feet. I expect the distance in a HD scenario to be less than 30 feet for sure. And all 12 pellets will reach the 12 inch penetration depth easily...
For LE I understand wanting a tight pattern...
For HD, I want a more open pattern. The load I prefer is a 12 pellet 00 Buck load that is about 100 FPS slower than typical 9 pellet loads... and patterns at 2, 4, 7, 11 and 15 inches at 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50 feet. I expect the distance in a HD scenario to be less than 30 feet for sure. And all 12 pellets will reach the 12 inch penetration depth easily...
Sounds like you are running the same stuff I run, Supreme XX Magnum. At 25 yards it will put 70-90% of all the pellets in a 12" circle with my M4 and MOD choke. Anything past that and I want a slug.
Glock17JHP
05-05-09, 20:34
I think you may be right...
The load I prefer for HD at this point is:
Winchester Supreme XX Magnum Buckshot
12-pellet 00 Buck
Load# X12XCOB5
Velocity: 1,295
I think you may be right...
The load I prefer for HD at this point is:
Winchester Supreme XX Magnum Buckshot
12-pellet 00 Buck
Load# X12XCOB5
Velocity: 1,295
One and the same.
Thomas M-4
05-05-09, 21:41
Hornady tap 00 buck 2'' 3/4 in the tube and Remington 1oz foster slugs nearby.
What I'm currently loading
9 #0 buck 50/50 WW/dead soft lead and waterdropped Avg. 494Grain total weight ~22Bhn
Fiocchi clear low-brass hull
12s3 Federal Clone wad
Win209
24G Unique
Recoil is about that of a 1 1/8 field load, no clue on Velocity yet...But I'll know tomorrow.
Patterns forthcoming.
What I'm currently loading
9 #0 buck 50/50 WW/dead soft lead and waterdropped Avg. 494Grain total weight ~22Bhn
Fiocchi clear low-brass hull
12s3 Federal Clone wad
Win209
24G Unique
Recoil is about that of a 1 1/8 field load, no clue on Velocity yet...But I'll know tomorrow.
Patterns forthcoming.
Sounds about like you have re-created the Win-lite low-recoil buckshot load from how you describe the way it recoils. I am curious as to how it patterns.
Glock17JHP
05-06-09, 10:49
Hornady tap 00 buck 2'' 3/4 in the tube and Remington 1oz foster slugs nearby.
I used to have (7) 12 pellet Supreme 00 Buck in the mag tube (empty chamber), and some Brenneke slugs nearby... but I have recently re-evaluated whether or not I actually need to worry about having the slugs at all. I am thinking buckshot only for HD...
I have the pictures I promised earlier, just need to carve out time to put them on this thread... they are coming...
Sounds about like you have re-created the Win-lite low-recoil buckshot load from how you describe the way it recoils. I am curious as to how it patterns.
No joy on getting to the range today for patterns, but I'll post the results once I get there :D
Glock17JHP
05-06-09, 20:00
Here is a picture of the 7.8 inch pattern I got shooting the Winchester Supreme XX 00 Buck 12 pellet load through my
Winchester Defender (18 inch cylinder bore 12 gauge) at 30 feet...
I aimed at the center of the target, so this load hits about 3 inches high in my weapon at that distance...
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/MVC-439F.jpg
The shotgun...
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/WinchesterDefender12GaugeShotgun.jpg
And the load...
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/WinchesterSupremeXXMag12GaBuckshot.jpg
Glock17JHP
05-06-09, 20:07
This was the 4.3 inch pattern I got from the Winchester Ranger 00 Buck 9 pellet load...
It was fired from the same distance as the Winchester Supreme XX 12 pellet 00 Buck load above...
It also hits about 3 inches high at 30 feet in my weapon...
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/MVC-438F.jpg
Glock17JHP
05-06-09, 20:12
Slug penetration pictures will be posted very soon...
BTW, what do all of you think of Federal's 'Flight Control' Buckshot loads? I would NOT want them for home defense.
I have shot a fair amount of the LE133 OO load (8 pellet Flite Control) and found the recoil to be very mild compared to other buckshot loads. Out of an 14" 870 mod choke barrel, I would be quite confident in keeping the shots within an 8" circle at 20 yards.
I'm not sure what's not to like about it. I would think this would make an excellent HD load. Mild recoil and the versatility to take longer shots if necessary.
Glock17JHP
05-07-09, 13:43
I have shot a fair amount of the LE133 OO load (8 pellet Flite Control) and found the recoil to be very mild compared to other buckshot loads. Out of an 14" 870 mod choke barrel, I would be quite confident in keeping the shots within an 8" circle at 20 yards.
I'm not sure what's not to like about it. I would think this would make an excellent HD load. Mild recoil and the versatility to take longer shots if necessary.
My concern is that if I am typically looking at scenarios that are within about 20-30 feet, I think I want more spread than I would get with the Federal FC loads. I would get 4 and 7 inches at those 2 distances with my Win Supreme 00 Buck 12 pellet load.
Glock17JHP
05-07-09, 23:22
OK... I'm having 2nd thoughts about my Winchester Supreme XX 12 pellet 00 Buck load at 1,295 FPS (Load# X12XCOB5)... I get a pattern of about 11 inches at 40 feet...
Compare this to the Winchester Ranger 9 pellet 00 Buck 'Low-Recoil' load at 1,145 FPS (load# RA1200)... which yields a pattern of about 11 inches at 75 feet...
So RA1200 gives almost double the range as X12XCOB5, and the recoil is only about 15.8 lbs. with an 8 lb. gun... I wonder what the recoil works out to in the X12XCOB5 load???
Question...
Can anyone give a definitive answer as to what the maximum pattern size should be in a defensive scenario? We know shotgun loads are limited as to the maximum advisable distance to use them in a defensive situation, so obviously the pattern size would be the limiting factor. Can anyone give a valid answer to this question that is not just opinion? As with the 12-18 inch standard set for bullet penetration, is there a maximum pattern size recommendation for LE or SD buckshot loads?
The answers I get may sway me to one or the other of the loads mentioned in this post...
OK... I'm having 2nd thoughts about my Winchester Supreme XX 12 pellet 00 Buck load at 1,295 FPS (Load# X12XCOB5)... I get a pattern of about 11 inches at 40 feet...
Compare this to the Winchester Ranger 9 pellet 00 Buck 'Low-Recoil' load at 1,145 FPS (load# RA1200)... which yields a pattern of about 11 inches at 75 feet...
So RA1200 gives almost double the range as X12XCOB5, and the recoil is only about 15.8 lbs. with an 8 lb. gun... I wonder what the recoil works out to in the X12XCOB5 load???
Question...
Can anyone give a definitive answer as to what the maximum pattern size should be in a defensive scenario? We know shotgun loads are limited as to the maximum advisable distance to use them in a defensive situation, so obviously the pattern size would be the limiting factor. Can anyone give a valid answer to this question that is not just opinion? As with the 12-18 inch standard set for bullet penetration, is there a maximum pattern size recommendation for LE or SD buckshot loads?
The answers I get may sway me to one or the other of the loads mentioned in this post...
Seriously, buy a case of Federal FliteControl low-recoil 9-pellet 00 and be done with it. You're going to have a stroke going through all of these gyrations over buckshot.
Buckshot has long been considered ideally usable at 25 yds or less. With typical pattern spread from 00 and an IC bore being 1"/1yd, 7 of 9 pellets on a man-sized target at 25 yds is normal. 00 FliteControl loads typically produce patterns half the size of standard 00. You could look at this as extending the usable range of 00 to 40 - 50 yds and/or as staying inside 25 yds but with a much more effective pattern.
Glock17JHP
05-08-09, 13:41
Seriously, buy a case of Federal FliteControl low-recoil 9-pellet 00 and be done with it. You're going to have a stroke going through all of these gyrations over buckshot.
Buckshot has long been considered ideally usable at 25 yds or less. With typical pattern spread from 00 and an IC bore being 1"/1yd, 7 of 9 pellets on a man-sized target at 25 yds is normal. 00 FliteControl loads typically produce patterns half the size of standard 00. You could look at this as extending the usable range of 00 to 40 - 50 yds and/or as staying inside 25 yds but with a much more effective pattern.
I hear you, and am beginning to think that way; with the minor exception that I am considering Winchester Ranger RA1200 9-pellet 'Low-Recoil'. Would there be any real difference between the load you are mentioning and the Ranger RA1200?
And... what load specifically would you recommend? LE132 00???
I hear you, and am beginning to think that way; with the minor exception that I am considering Winchester Ranger RA1200 9-pellet 'Low-Recoil'. Would there be any real difference between the load you are mentioning and the Ranger RA1200?
And... what load specifically would you recommend? LE132 00???
I've pattern tested all (and I do mean all) of the major brands of "tactical" buckshot in my shotguns and have found the Federal Tactical FliteControl and Hornady TAP loads to consistently pattern the best. Personally, I load Federal LE132 (9 pellet, low recoil).
If you're running a semi-auto, I'd recommend that you test any low recoil loads you're considering to be sure that they'll cycle reliably in your shotgun(s). I only run pumps so, sorry I can't provide any guidance there.
The Federal Tactical FliteControl and Hornady TAP loads use a licensed version of the Choke shot spread reducing wad designed by Chris Billings; these are very good loads and are my first choice in buckshot loads for LE use. Having said that, shotguns spit out bits of metal and make nasty multi-hit wounds at close range--as long as the load offers adequate penetration at the distances you anticipate needing it, do the subtle nuances really matter that much? I use 870's and would be OK using any load from a major manufacturer of #1 buck to 000 buck for typical indoors defense of ones family and home. If I was forced to use a shotgun as my primary long gun outdoors, I am going to be loading Brenneke slugs or maybe the Federal Tactical FliteControl and Hornady TAP 00 loads, as they give me more versatility.
Glock17JHP
05-10-09, 01:28
I appreciate all this input, but would still like to ask a couple more questions...
I am not hearing anyone recommend Winchester Ranger Buckshot. I keep hearing Federal Flight Control and Hornady Tap... Are the Ranger loads as good as the Federal and Hornady loads?
I prefer the pump 12 gauge as my primary defensive long gun, but am becoming less and less fond of slugs. I prefer 00 Buck for my choice of buckshot. My only real question remaining at this point is what specific load to choose. I know I am coming across to some like I am too caught up in the details (anal), but once I figure those little details out, I will be 'good to go', and will focus on training and practice. But until then, I do want to know the little things about some of the 00 Buck loads. It's the way I'm wired.
Since I 'might' need to use my shotgun in a defensive situation where the distance 'might' be beyond 30 feet, perhaps the best choice for me would be a 'Low-Recoil' 00 Buck load like the Winchester Ranger RA1200 or the Federal Flight Control LE132 00. If these 2 loads are basically equal... I would choose Ranger RA1200 because I can get the Ranger load quite easily at this point, but do not know where to get the Federal load. So... this is the load I am leaning toward right now. This would be a switch from the Winchester Supreme XX 12-pellet X12XCOB5, which patterns almost 2X the diameter of either the Federal LE132 00 or the Ranger RA1200. The X12XCOB5 has managable recoil for me, so switching to the lower recoiling LE132 00 or RA1200 would be a plus.
Doc, you made the point to me earlier elsewhere that the larger pattern of X12XCOB5 might be a 'plus' in a situation where a pit-bull was charging toward me (it also follows that it also might be a good choice if a human adversary was charging toward me), but that the tighter pattern of the LE132 00 (or RA1200) might be a plus if there were multiple adversaries, and only one was armed or actually attacking... because you could more precisely place the pellets with less concern of 'collateral damage'.
So... since I don't want to have 2 different loads, I want to choose one... and I lean toward the tighter patterning loads.
So... I guess the lingering question is... are LE132 00 and RA1200 equal performers? If no... why? I can easily get the Ranger load, so if they are equal, I will go ahead and buy a case of Ranger RA1200. I know where to buy that right now as I write this.
Lastly, if the Federal LE132 00 is better than Ranger RA1200... I would want to know why. If I agreed it was better, then I would need to know where to buy a case if it...
...the larger pattern of X12XCOB5 might be a 'plus' in a situation where a pit-bull was charging toward me (it also follows that it also might be a good choice if a human adversary was charging toward me)
People are larger and don't move nearly as fast as dogs. ;)
So... since I don't want to have 2 different loads, I want to choose one... and I lean toward the tighter patterning loads.
So... I guess the lingering question is... are LE132 00 and RA1200 equal performers? If no... why?
The Winchester loads don't pattern as tightly as the LE132. They pattern like the old Federal tactical 00 loads. This might not be a big deal for you inside of 10 yds. At 15 - 25 yds, you'd notice a big difference.
Lastly, if the Federal LE132 00 is better than Ranger RA1200... I would want to know why. If I agreed it was better, then I would need to know where to buy a case if it...
If you decide to go with the Federal loads, keep tabs on ammunitiontogo.com. Their stock comes and goes fairly regularly.
I'll be honest, I prefer the LE132 but, wouldn't be too disappointed if all I could get was the RA1200. However, I can easily envision shots at 15+ yds hence my preference for the LE132.
As noted earlier, the Federal Tactical FliteControl and Hornady TAP loads use a licensed version of the Choke shot spread reducing wad, the Winchester Ranger load does not. The only difference is that loads using the shot spread reducing wad have tighter patterns... This might help: http://le.atk.com/pdf/Shotshell_Data_Book.pdf
Glock17JHP
05-10-09, 20:38
I already have the Federal LE Shotshell Data Book...
As far as the pattern for the Federal LE132 00, pictures of torso shaped targets with a pattern at 20 and 30 yards are shown, but no dimensions for these patterns are given.
The Winchester Law Enforcement Catalog gives the actual pattern dimension (11 inches) for the Ranger RA1200 shot at 25 yards (it actually gives RA12005, which is the same load in a 5 round package) on page 17, but the catalog does not show any picture of the pattern.
So... although I have no reason to distrust anyone here... I am not able to see a side-by-side (apples-to-apples) comparison of the patterns of these 2 loads I am considering (LE132 00 and RA1200).
Does anyone have pictures of Ranger Buckshot patterns besides the one I posted earlier? The load I posted was RA1200HD, which is a 'standard recoil' (my term) 00 Buck load at 1,325 FPS, and it is shown to yield a 12 inch pattern at 25 yards. Are the patterns from the Federal FC wads more evenly distributed than the Ranger patterns, but both patterns are about the same size? And... can someone show me pictures to compare these loads in a way I can 'see'?
As noted earlier, the Federal Tactical FliteControl and Hornady TAP loads use a licensed version of the Choke shot spread reducing wad, the Winchester Ranger load does not. The only difference is that loads using the shot spread reducing wad have tighter patterns... This might help: http://le.atk.com/pdf/Shotshell_Data_Book.pdf
I keep seeing people swear by this, but Hornady TAP with that wad performs like pure crap, barely putting a few pellets on a 14x16" paper at 25 yards. I put higher % of shot on paper at 50 yards using other buckshot.
I would like to belive that the Federal stuff is better, if it is, I would buy, but I don't like wasting my money and the hornady trash has me pretty turned off over it.
FWIW, I ran it through an M4 with both the MOD and the IC choke, to see if it mattered. IC did a little better, but still crap. Any conventional load put it to shame past 20 yards.
At 35 yards, I could not hit paper. If I did, it was a lucky pellet or two. My other buckshot was putting 50%+ of it's payload into 14x14" at that range.
Glock17JHP
05-11-09, 01:03
OK... here is my outlook right now...
I currently am using Winchester Supreme XX X12XCOB5 as my home defense load... it is a 1,295 FPS 00 Buck load of 12 pellets that has a spread of 11 inches at 40 feet...
I am considering switching to Winchester Ranger RA1200 as my home defense load... it is a 1,145 FPS 00 Buck load of 9 pellets that has a spread of 11 inches at 75 feet...
So... I would be switching to a load that has a pattern that is roughly 50% smaller, and I would also be reducing my recoil considerably... this should be a good change. I already have a source for a 250 round case of this RA1200 ammunition (10 boxes of 25 each) for $241.37, and that includes tax and shipping...
But... I am 'told' that Federal LE132 00 is 'better'. I am 'told' it 'patterns better' because of the 'Flight Control' wad system. I hear this being said, but have no concrete proof in the form of pictures or actual written data. I have written data for one load (RA1200), and pictures with no measurements for the other load (LE132 00).
So... unless I can get more data to decide differently, I will probably go ahead and get a case of RA1200... and it looks like that would definitely be an improvement over X12XCOB5...
WS6--Sorry you had such bad results; the testing done by several agencies has demonstrated tighter patterns using the Choke shot spread reducing wads... I've seen results published in two different papers in the AFTE journal one from California agencies reported that all pellets from the shot spread reducing wads were within a 12" circle when fired at 25 yards, the other out of Utah described the pellets using the shot spread reducing wad as forming patterns between 7.25" to 13" at 20 yards, while the Remington Express 00 load used as a control had patterns between 16.75" and 22.75" at the same distance. Of note, after using the Choke wads successfully for over 5 years, a large local agency reported that some Federal 00 buckshot ammo using the Choke wads began having patterning problems in the last year or two--perhaps you ran into the same issue.
Glock17JHP--It is buckshot, not match ammo. Buy what you can get easily. Test it in your weapon. Then shoot it and don't stress.
WS6--Sorry you had such bad results; the testing done by several agencies has demonstrated tighter patterns using the Choke shot spread reducing wads... I've seen results published in two different papers in the AFTE journal one from California agencies reported that all pellets from the shot spread reducing wads were within a 12" circle when fired at 25 yards, the other out of Utah described the pellets using the shot spread reducing wad as forming patterns between 7.25" to 13" at 20 yards, while the Remington Express 00 load used as a control had patterns between 16.75" and 22.75" at the same distance. Of note, after using the Choke wads successfully for over 5 years, a large local agency reported that some Federal 00 buckshot ammo using the Choke wads began having patterning problems in the last year or two--perhaps you ran into the same issue.
Glock17JHP--It is buckshot, not match ammo. Buy what you can get easily. Test it in your weapon. Then shoot it and don't stress.
The only way I can get it is to spend $$$ to have it shipped in. I don't want to blow the cash on something that patterns like playdough slung from a blunderbuss.
I guess I will have to just bite the bullet and see how it does. I guess the high velocity (1600fps) and lack of buffer caused pellet deformation, when it left the cup, it RAPIDLY veered.
This is my non-expert analysis of the Hornady TAP epic-fail.
Glock17JHP:
You need to pattern the loads in your shotgun(s). Buy a sampling of each load you'd like to test and shoot them through your shotgun(s). Don't try to go by manufacturer's pre-printed data. People could show you photos all day long of how various loads pattern in their shotguns but, that's not necessarily indicative of how it would pattern in your shotguns.
Glock17JHP
05-11-09, 13:29
RWK... now that was a good answer!!!
I could contact ATK and Winchester and request perhaps 10 rounds of each of the RA1200 and LE132 00... and then test them both in my shotgun. That would be the best method, period!!!
Thanks...
I have tested the Federal FlightControl reduced recoil 00 buckshot in three shotguns: a Benelli M3, a Benelli Nova 18.5", and an 870 21" with IC remchoke.
At 25M all produce patterns in the 7-10" range. All guns tended to make "donuts" - no pellets in the middle.
The best tight patterns I have gotten with 00 buckshot is with the 870 21" using a Patternmaster choke and the old style standard wad Federal Tactical low recoil shells. 25M Patterns typically are about 6-7"" with shot well distributed over the area of impact.
http://www.patternmaster.com/
These chokes can be used with Foster type soft slugs in a pinch but it is not ideal.
I know this doesn't fit the typical "tactical" shotgun profile but it works for me.
I have tested the Federal FlightControl reduced recoil 00 buckshot in three shotguns: a Benelli M3, a Benelli Nova 18.5", and an 870 21" with IC remchoke.
At 25M all produce patterns in the 7-10" range. All guns tended to make "donuts" - no pellets in the middle.
The best tight patterns I have gotten with 00 buckshot is with the 870 21" using a Patternmaster choke and the old style standard wad Federal Tactical low recoil shells. 25M Patterns typically are about 6-7"" with shot well distributed over the area of impact.
http://www.patternmaster.com/
These chokes can be used with Foster type soft slugs in a pinch but it is not ideal.
I know this doesn't fit the typical "tactical" shotgun profile but it works for me.
Yep, Hornady TAP did this to me BAD! wit my M4S90 and IC choke. As in, a 20" hole in the middle at 30 yards. Wouldn't put anything on paper, and I know it was "zeroed" as I shot at 10 yards, backed up 5, etc. until nothing hit paper and could clearly see the donut pattern emerge at 18-20m pretty evidently, and at 25m, it all but missed paper. Paper being 14x16".
Patrick Aherne
05-12-09, 00:32
I am going to be a d!ck here: it doesn't matter which load you use for HD use if you use a Winchester 1300. In my book, the 1300/1200 is a POS that fails if you run it hard. The Rem 870 and Mossberg 590 series are FAR superior fighting shotguns. If it doesn't go bang, it doesn't matter what pattern size you have.
I have a Benelli M1S90 stoked with the high-velocity Hornady Tap 00 buck rounds as my secondary home defense weapon. My primary HD weapon is a S&W 642 with 135 God Dots that rides on my person, most of the time when I am not in bed or hatching a Democrat. My experience, as a first responder to home invasion robberies and homicides, is that the firearm you have on you is the one that will decide the issue.
At the 45-foot max distance, down the hallway of my house, the Hornady TAP 00 buck has about a 6" pattern. 00 buck will penetrate the shit out of sheetrock and 2x4s, so I plan not to miss. In my experience, at actual shootings, 5.56 mm rounds penetrate less in common residential building materials than 00 buck. I still prefer a shotgun for home defense; personal preference.
Stop stressing about which round to use. Pick a round, pattern it at all the distances you might use it in YOUR house and then buy a sh!tload of it and practice making hostage and high-risk shots at the distances YOU will employ it in your house. I wish you success.
I am going to be a d!ck here: it doesn't matter which load you use for HD use if you use a Winchester 1300. In my book, the 1300/1200 is a POS that fails if you run it hard. The Rem 870 and Mossberg 590 series are FAR superior fighting shotguns. If it doesn't go bang, it doesn't matter what pattern size you have.
I have a Benelli M1S90 stoked with the high-velocity Hornady Tap 00 buck rounds as my secondary home defense weapon. My primary HD weapon is a S&W 642 with 135 God Dots that rides on my person, most of the time when I am not in bed or hatching a Democrat. My experience, as a first responder to home invasion robberies and homicides, is that the firearm you have on you is the one that will decide the issue.
At the 45-foot max distance, down the hallway of my house, the Hornady TAP 00 buck has about a 6" pattern. 00 buck will penetrate the shit out of sheetrock and 2x4s, so I plan not to miss. In my experience, at actual shootings, 5.56 mm rounds penetrate less in common residential building materials than 00 buck. I still prefer a shotgun for home defense; personal preference.
Stop stressing about which round to use. Pick a round, pattern it at all the distances you might use it in YOUR house and then buy a sh!tload of it and practice making hostage and high-risk shots at the distances YOU will employ it in your house. I wish you success.
Making it barely through 1 2x4, if that, is hardly "penetrating the shit out of" imho. Buckshot is remarkably poor at penetrating anything but gel and flesh.
I have put even VMAX 40gr through as much as that. M193 goes through about 6-7 and M855 through 7+ and TAP T2 through about 5.
9mm JHP 3
.45jhp 2.5
.357sig JHP 4.5
Just my informal testing on 2x4's, because we all know that 2x4's are what is likely to be breaking into my appartment at 3am. ;)
That or a duct-tape swaddled attack-turkey.
Glock17JHP
05-12-09, 10:55
I am going to be a d!ck here: it doesn't matter which load you use for HD use if you use a Winchester 1300. In my book, the 1300/1200 is a POS that fails if you run it hard. The Rem 870 and Mossberg 590 series are FAR superior fighting shotguns. If it doesn't go bang, it doesn't matter what pattern size you have.
I have a Benelli M1S90 stoked with the high-velocity Hornady Tap 00 buck rounds as my secondary home defense weapon. My primary HD weapon is a S&W 642 with 135 God Dots that rides on my person, most of the time when I am not in bed or hatching a Democrat. My experience, as a first responder to home invasion robberies and homicides, is that the firearm you have on you is the one that will decide the issue.
At the 45-foot max distance, down the hallway of my house, the Hornady TAP 00 buck has about a 6" pattern. 00 buck will penetrate the shit out of sheetrock and 2x4s, so I plan not to miss. In my experience, at actual shootings, 5.56 mm rounds penetrate less in common residential building materials than 00 buck. I still prefer a shotgun for home defense; personal preference.
Stop stressing about which round to use. Pick a round, pattern it at all the distances you might use it in YOUR house and then buy a sh!tload of it and practice making hostage and high-risk shots at the distances YOU will employ it in your house. I wish you success.
I hear you, Patrick... don't agree the 1300 Defender is a POS, though... I like the smooth action, something I didn't find on the Mossberg. I also don't like the 870's, (had 4-5), because I don't like to add an extension to a mag tube to get more than 4+1. Like you, it is personal experience and preference. My Defender has had 1,000's of various rounds through it in 10+ years, and has not failed me... not exactly my experience with the 870 Police.
Agree 100% with every other point you made, though...
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
This link should finally put to rest the old myth about M193, etc. being safer than buckshot up to OO size at least, in houses.
Glock17JHP
05-12-09, 21:01
RWK... now that was a good answer!!!
I could contact ATK and Winchester and request perhaps 10 rounds of each of the RA1200 and LE132 00... and then test them both in my shotgun. That would be the best method, period!!!
Thanks...
Well... after emailing both ATK and Winchester, I have decided to forget about my plan to test. There was hesitation on their part, so I told them to forget it.
I will be buying a case of Winchester RA1200...
Now on to other things... like the slugs I tested... I will be posting pictures ASAP...
"This link should finally put to rest the old myth about M193, etc. being safer than buckshot up to OO size at least, in houses."
Actually the BOT "test" does not tell us anything about the potential damage a penetrating projectile might cause to a person on the other side of a wall within a house, as the BOT experimental model is incorrect to provide that data. One would have to build an interior wall replica, place tissue simulant material a set distance on the other side of the wall (depending on the expected distance a person might be positioned away from the far side of from the wall--be it 6 inches or 6 feet), then make the shot through the wall and into the tissue simulant. This will give usable data on the potential physiological damage a given projectile might cause after first passing through an intermediate wall barrier. While an older paper whose specific recommendations are now outdated, it has lots of wall shot data that you might consider reading: Roberts GK: “Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Weapons--The Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Carbines Compared With 12 ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant." Wound Ballistics Review. 3(4):16-27, 1998.
I shoot 3 gun competitions and the Federal 00 buck shoots the most impressive patterns by far than anyone else. 870's or 1187's mostly. Most good shooters also shoot their tru ball slugs because they are incredibly accurate. Head shots at 100 yards with no problems.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm
It appears both buck and M193 will clear 4 walls. I wouldn't want to be on the side of either. However, if a wall-stud is hit, I know for sure the buck will stop faster. M193 penetrated fully 6x the 2x4's that OOO did in my own testing (albeing informal).
Well... after emailing both ATK and Winchester, I have decided to forget about my plan to test. There was hesitation on their part, so I told them to forget it.
I will be buying a case of Winchester RA1200...
Now on to other things... like the slugs I tested... I will be posting pictures ASAP...
There was an ad on the EE of a certain site that had some for sale at a good bargain a while back I thought. (not my ad).
http://ee.ar15.com/Default.aspx?iid=6272 (not sure, might be pt#12008)?
http://ee.ar15.com/Default.aspx?iid=2012 (that is pt#12008)
Again, neither of these are my ads, nor do I know the sellers.
Glock17JHP
05-13-09, 13:46
Federal sent me an email... told me they are sending me ammunition to test... slugs also...
After consideration, I don't want the 6 inch pattern the Federal may give at 25 yards... for HD I think the 11 inch pattern for the Ranger would be a good compromise beween the Supreme I currently use (24 inches at 25 yards) and the Federal load...
If I were an LE, I might want the Federal LE132 00 over the Ranger RA1200...
Glock17JHP
05-14-09, 10:55
Interesting...
With the Winchester Supreme XX 12-pellet 00 Buck (X12XCOB5), the pattern seems to be about 24 inches at 25 yards... as you sight down the barrel, that pattern is roughly 2X the diameter of the barrel at the muzzle...
Winchester Ranger 9-pellet 00 Buck (RA1200) gives a pattern about 1/2 that size, about 11 inches at 25 yards... as you sight down the barrel, that is about the same size pattern as the diameter of the muzzle...
Then with Federal 9-pellet 00 Buck (LE132 00), the pattern is about 1/2 of that, or about 6 inches at 25 yards... so as you sight down the barrel, the pattern is only about 1/2 of what te muzzle covers!!!
I am a 'visual' person... and this was an eye-opener for me...
Sounds like 9 ea. almost 9mm holes on the target with one pull of a trigger. Good penetration and rounds on target. Great combo. Alternate that with slugs and you have a fantastic HD option.
I would recommend NOT alternating loads. Put one type of ammo in the gun, have the other on a side saddle of butt cuff. Don't mix them in the tube, as under stress, it is very easy to lose track of which you have in the chamber at any given time...
Alternate that with slugs and you have a fantastic HD option.
It's been covered many times here and in other threads why "alternating", "candy caning", "dutch loading", whatever you want to call it is a bad idea - especially with shotguns. Slap yourself and go sit in the corner! ;)
Glock17JHP
05-15-09, 23:48
A request please...
I do not know how to calculate recoil (in pounds) for a weapon/load combination, but I know there is a way to do this based (I would assume) on weapon weight, projectile weight and muzzle velocity...
Can someone please calculate the recoil for the following 2 combinations?
1) Winchester Defender 8-shot synthetic-stocked 12 gauge (6.4 lbs.), firing Winchester Supreme XX 12-pellet 00 Buck (X12XCOB5), Velocity: 1,295 FPS
2) Winchester Defender 8-shot synthetic-stocked 12 gauge (6.4 lbs.), firing Winchester Ranger 9-pellet 00 Buck (RA1200), Velocity: 1,145 FPS
I want to know what the anticipated recoil reduction will be by my switching from load#1 to #2...
A request please...
I do not know how to calculate recoil (in pounds) for a weapon/load combination, but I know there is a way to do this based (I would assume) on weapon weight, projectile weight and muzzle velocity...
Can someone please calculate the recoil for the following 2 combinations?
1) Winchester Defender 8-shot synthetic-stocked 12 gauge (6.4 lbs.), firing Winchester Supreme XX 12-pellet 00 Buck (X12XCOB5), Velocity: 1,295 FPS
2) Winchester Defender 8-shot synthetic-stocked 12 gauge (6.4 lbs.), firing Winchester Ranger 9-pellet 00 Buck (RA1200), Velocity: 1,145 FPS
I want to know what the anticipated recoil reduction will be by my switching from load#1 to #2...
About 3 pellets different.
Plus, one is a "hunting" load and the other is a SD/LEO round. The 12 Pellet will kick harder than the ranger. Exactly Just how much in Ft/Lbs means nothing. "felt" recoil is a factor of much more than just energy produced.
Glock17JHP
05-16-09, 23:16
Storydude,
No offense, OK...
X12XCOB5 has been listed in Winchester's LE infomation for years. It was an LE mainstay for a long time in the past, and is CURRENTLY listed in their latest LE catalog. Granted, it has been overtaken in recent years by Ranger Buckshot, but it is still 'there' today, in the LE catalog. It could of couse be used for hunting, and is marketed now under the 'Supreme' label... but that was not always the case. It wasn't that many years ago that it was just a Winchester XX load.
As for the recoil question, you may not be aware that recoil figures are often given for various firearm/ammunition combos. Rifles for hunting large game are often rated this way, sometimes reach up to 75 lbs. recoil or higher. Handguns likewise are sometimes rated, but obviously the recoil may only be rated around 5-10 lbs. give or take a few. I just recently saw where Winchester rated some of their shotshells at 13.4 to 29.1 lbs. in an 8 lb. firearm. That was also in the latest LE catalog.
Lastly, you were the only one who mentioned 'Ft/Lbs' as relating to my recoil query... I said just plain 'lbs'. If you can't answer the question... let someone else...
No offense...
Recoil is measured in Ft/Lbs. Not Lbs. Recoil forces are expressed in ft/Lbs of energy or Joules. In other words, the amount of force it takes to move one Lb, one foot vertically in one second against the force of gravity, in a single pulley/No Mechanical advantage configuration. Joules are only used by Mechanical Engineer nerds :D
http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_recoil.htm
And no offense, but the best way to answer your question is to buy a box of each and fire in a blind test in YOUR gun.
The only information found on Winchester's site references X12cb1 which is a #1 buck load with a recoil from an 8Lb weapon of 29.9 ft-lbs.
http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/doc/LEDocs/X12C1B.doc
Here is the formula to do your own homework.
free recoil=
(weight of the bullet X muzzle velocity + 4700 X weight of powder charge)squared
_____________________________________________
64.348 X weight of gun in pounds
Factor 7000 squared in the denominator. That's necessary to convert bullet and powder charge weight from grains to pounds (7000gr/lb)
*Per Lyman #46.
EDIT: Here's another formula.
M(gun) = Mass of gun (not weight)
V(gun) = Velocity of gun (ft/sec)
M(bullet) = Mass of bullet (not weight)
V(bullet) = Velocity of bullet (ft/sec)
M(powder) = Mass of powder (not weight)
V(powder) = Velocity of powder.
Momentum balance says that:
M(gun)*V(gun) = M(bullet)*V(bullet) + M(powder)*V(powder)
Assume that V(powder) can be replaced with k*V(bullet)
Solve for V(gun) to get:
V(gun) = [M(bullet)*V(bullet) + M(powder)*k*V(bullet)] / M(gun)
The Recoil Energy of the moving gun is 0.5 * M(gun)* [V(gun)]^2 so:
E(gun) = 0.5 * M(gun) * [V(gun)]^2
or
R.E. = [0.5 / M(gun)] * [M(bullet)*V(bullet) + M(powder)*k*V(bullet)]^2
All Lb weights must be converted to Lbs mass. Powder charge and bullet weight must be converted from Grains to Lbs, then to lbs mass.
And for those that suck at math....
http://tml.travellercentral.com/ke.html
:D
Glock17JHP
05-22-09, 10:52
Recoil is measured in Ft/Lbs. Not Lbs. Recoil forces are expressed in ft/Lbs of energy or Joules. In other words, the amount of force it takes to move one Lb, one foot vertically in one second against the force of gravity, in a single pulley/No Mechanical advantage configuration. Joules are only used by Mechanical Engineer nerds :D
http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_recoil.htm
And no offense, but the best way to answer your question is to buy a box of each and fire in a blind test in YOUR gun.
The only information found on Winchester's site references X12cb1 which is a #1 buck load with a recoil from an 8Lb weapon of 29.9 ft-lbs.
http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/doc/LEDocs/X12C1B.doc
Here is the formula to do your own homework.
free recoil=
(weight of the bullet X muzzle velocity + 4700 X weight of powder charge)squared
_____________________________________________
64.348 X weight of gun in pounds
Factor 7000 squared in the denominator. That's necessary to convert bullet and powder charge weight from grains to pounds (7000gr/lb)
*Per Lyman #46.
EDIT: Here's another formula.
M(gun) = Mass of gun (not weight)
V(gun) = Velocity of gun (ft/sec)
M(bullet) = Mass of bullet (not weight)
V(bullet) = Velocity of bullet (ft/sec)
M(powder) = Mass of powder (not weight)
V(powder) = Velocity of powder.
Momentum balance says that:
M(gun)*V(gun) = M(bullet)*V(bullet) + M(powder)*V(powder)
Assume that V(powder) can be replaced with k*V(bullet)
Solve for V(gun) to get:
V(gun) = [M(bullet)*V(bullet) + M(powder)*k*V(bullet)] / M(gun)
The Recoil Energy of the moving gun is 0.5 * M(gun)* [V(gun)]^2 so:
E(gun) = 0.5 * M(gun) * [V(gun)]^2
or
R.E. = [0.5 / M(gun)] * [M(bullet)*V(bullet) + M(powder)*k*V(bullet)]^2
All Lb weights must be converted to Lbs mass. Powder charge and bullet weight must be converted from Grains to Lbs, then to lbs mass.
Storydude,
Go here:
http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/pdf/LEPDF/2008%20Law%20Enforcement%20Catalog.pdf
Look at the lower right corner of page 17... it shows 5 loads, and their recoil...
BTW, you are correct, it did list recoil as Ft. Lbs... I was wrong...
This is what I was asking about, the Ft. Lbs of recoil... for comparison purposes.
I am not interested in my 'perception' of the recoil, I want a number...
Glock17JHP
05-22-09, 10:55
Since propellants have differing properties, I am surprised the propellant 'weight' is a factor...
Conservation of Momentum.
Matter is hard to destroy. Just because it went from solid to gas does not mean you lost mass.
;)
Glock17JHP
05-22-09, 21:07
Paul Nowak from Winchester LE answered my query...
Winchester Supreme X 12-pellet 00 Buck (X12XCOB5)
35.5 Ft. Lbs. of recoil
24-inch pattern @25 yards
Winchester Ranger 'Low-Recoil' 9-pellet 00 Buck (RA1200)
15.8 Ft. Lbs. of recoil
11-inch pattern @ 25 yards
The top load is my current load for SD/HD, the bottom load is the one I am probably switching to...
Jim from Houston
05-22-09, 22:09
I would definitely make that switch, Ron. 24 inches at 25 yards is a pattern that poses too much risk of collateral damage for my taste...a single stray pellet of 00 buck can be a life-changing thing...I'd prefer a pattern that keeps all of them in the bad guy's chest cavity...
The best way to get tight patterns with buckshot is a Patternmaster choke: http://www.patternmaster.com/
Why not use Federal Truball slugs? Less penetration than buckshot. More damage where you aimed.
Why not use Federal Truball slugs? Less penetration than buckshot. More damage where you aimed.
JMHO, but with a slug, you hit a heart, or a lung, or...
With buckshot you hit a heart, and a lung, AND...
Brenneke slugs are far and away the best slug choice.
Brenneke slugs are far and away the best slug choice.
Brenneke KO...can this be fired through a MOD choke? I know my fosters can, and accuracy seems just fine, same as IC.
I know the KO SAYS! on the website it is okay to shoot through a screw-in MOD choke, but is it really? How about accuracy?
Is the KO the slug you would recommend, Doc?
ETA:
Just looked it up, KO is a sabot slug (it confused me at the fun-store when I saw it, as it was not encased in a sabot...)
So...what slug from Brenneke would you recommend through a smooth bore MOD choked weapon if maximum penetration is the goal?
I have had the best results both with KO and buckshot with IC choke.
Glock17JHP
05-23-09, 08:38
If I were going to use a slug for home defense/self defense... I would want 'rifle sights' on the shotgun...
After that, I would go with these...
http://www.brennekeusa.com/startlink3.html
Glock17JHP
05-23-09, 08:44
I would definitely make that switch, Ron. 24 inches at 25 yards is a pattern that poses too much risk of collateral damage for my taste...a single stray pellet of 00 buck can be a life-changing thing...I'd prefer a pattern that keeps all of them in the bad guy's chest cavity...
Agree... I prefer 00 Buck for HD/SD...
Another comparison...
X12XCOB5
Recoil: 35.5 lbs.
Pattern @ 25 yards: 24 inches
RA1200
Recoil: 15.8
(45% of X12XCOB5)
Pattern @ 25 yards: 11 inches
(21% of X12XCOB5 by surface area)
Brenneke KO...can this be fired through a MOD choke? I know my fosters can, and accuracy seems just fine, same as IC.
I know the KO SAYS! on the website it is okay to shoot through a screw-in MOD choke, but is it really? How about accuracy?
Is the KO the slug you would recommend, Doc?
ETA:
Just looked it up, KO is a sabot slug (it confused me at the fun-store when I saw it, as it was not encased in a sabot...)
So...what slug from Brenneke would you recommend through a smooth bore MOD choked weapon if maximum penetration is the goal?
Dixie Tuskers.
http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html
Glock17JHP
05-26-09, 13:23
Brenneke KO...can this be fired through a MOD choke? I know my fosters can, and accuracy seems just fine, same as IC.
I know the KO SAYS! on the website it is okay to shoot through a screw-in MOD choke, but is it really? How about accuracy?
Is the KO the slug you would recommend, Doc?
ETA:
Just looked it up, KO is a sabot slug (it confused me at the fun-store when I saw it, as it was not encased in a sabot...)
So...what slug from Brenneke would you recommend through a smooth bore MOD choked weapon if maximum penetration is the goal?
Maximum Penetration from a Brenneke???
Try the 3 inch 'Black Magic'... or the 2 3/4 inch 'Heavy Field Short Magnum'...
The latter is going to be shown in my pictures... still coming... been busy...
Glock17JHP
05-26-09, 22:41
OK... here are some pictures to show what Winchester 1 oz. Foster slugs and Brenneke 1 1/4 oz. Heavy Short Field Magnum slugs will do to various things...
Slugs vs. aerospace aluminum alloy 'square tubing' framework material... entrance holes...
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/MVC-426F.jpg
Slugs vs. aerospace aluminum alloy 'square tubing' framework material... exit holes...
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/MVC-427F.jpg
Car door (Brenneke)... entrance hole...
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/MVC-421F.jpg
Car door (Brenneke)... exit hole...
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/MVC-422F.jpg
Aerospace aluminum alloy 1/2-inch plate material... entrance holes...
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/MVC-425F.jpg
'Diamond plate' material... entrance holes...
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/MVC-428F.jpg
1998 Ford Windstar steel wheel (Winchester)... exit hole...
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/MVC-429F.jpg
1998 Ford Windstar steel wheel (Brenneke)... exit hole...
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/MVC-430F.jpg
Glock17JHP
05-27-09, 13:27
Excellent pictures. Got any ballistic gelatin pics coming up? I'd be interested.
-David.
Sorry... no gelatin... too much $$$...
Sorry... no gelatin... too much $$$...
Awesome stuff! Next time, can you use some 4x6's as a witness panel so we can see what happens AFTER the barrier as well?
I am impressed though...1/2" of metal, even if it is aluminum. Impressive!
Glock17JHP
05-27-09, 23:31
I could get 4 x 4's cheaper...
I plan on doing more experiments... we have another car door, and I can get more 'metal' things...
I still have more of the 2 slugs shown, plus I just got 2 different Federal 'Low-Recoil' slugs (one is a 'True-Ball' load), and I am also expecting some Brenneke 'Tactical Home Defense' slugs as well (any day).
I also have Winchester RA1200 on the way, and already have some Federal LE132 00...
sniperfrog
05-29-09, 15:54
I just read an article about NYPD gunfighter Jim Cirrilo and his take on 00 buck. He had said that they had shot a few people in close quarters with buckshot and it failed to stop them even after multiple hits. They switched to slugs and never had a problem. I found that article pretty interesting. Anyone else hear about that?
Anyone know if the Brenneke slugs will operate in a semi-auto? they're listed as low recoil.
I just read an article about NYPD gunfighter Jim Cirrilo and his take on 00 buck. He had said that they had shot a few people in close quarters with buckshot and it failed to stop them even after multiple hits. They switched to slugs and never had a problem. I found that article pretty interesting. Anyone else hear about that?
Anyone know if the Brenneke slugs will operate in a semi-auto? they're listed as low recoil.
Where were they hit? What was their mindset? Nothing will stop a person instantly short of a CNS disruption. I think such reports are inherently flawed.
Glock17JHP
05-30-09, 00:20
Agree it matters where the perp was shot... it would be impossible to draw good conclusions without that piece of the puzzle. It would be ideal to have autopsy pictures/reports...
The Brenneke 'Tactical Home Defense' should work fine in a semi-auto...
Agree it matters where the perp was shot... it would be impossible to draw good conclusions without that piece of the puzzle. It would be ideal to have autopsy pictures/reports...
The Brenneke 'Tactical Home Defense' should work fine in a semi-auto...
Not only that, but you can destroy the entire cardio-pulmonary center of a person and they can continue on for quite long enough to have it termed "an ineffective stop" if they are of a mind to do so.
I remember a report a long time ago of an officer that shot a college-student in the chest with OO at about 5' distance (pointed a pistol/weapon at the cop in the cruiser, I forget if it was a real one or airsoft or whatever, point is, it was justified, open/shut). Anyways, guy ran 45 yards. Autopsy revealed the heart (and I think lungs, but recall vividly that it said "Heart was shredded") "was shredded".
WIthout the heart pumping, blood pressure bottoms out as pretty darn fast.
Without the heart, no oxygenated blood leaves the lungs.
No fresh blood makes it to the brain.
Still, this guy continued running for almost half a football field. HARDLY a "effective stop", but I can't think of anything other than a CNS shot that would have produced more ghastly damage.
sniperfrog
05-30-09, 19:29
I don't know all of the specific details. Thats kinda why I was asking on here if anyone else had read this. I understand how certain people can react after being hit in certain areas. A buddy of mine told me about a guy in his platoon at Patilla Airfield in '89. It was the corpsman and he got shot in the head by an AK round. He stuck his fingers in the hole and then gave other guys instruction on how to take care of other wounded members. He was fine for the first two days in the hospital but then started losing his short term memory.
Glock17JHP
06-05-09, 15:28
I'll bet it was a 'grazing' or peripheral hit... if true...
sniperfrog
06-07-09, 19:30
I'll bet it was a 'grazing' or peripheral hit... if true...
Yeah, It's true. It was a grazing hit but took out a big enough chunk that he had to stick his fingers in the hole to stop the bleeding. I was at another Team and have heard this story from a couple other guys that were at Patilla Airfield.
I just read an article about NYPD gunfighter Jim Cirrilo and his take on 00 buck. He had said that they had shot a few people in close quarters with buckshot and it failed to stop them even after multiple hits. They switched to slugs and never had a problem. I found that article pretty interesting. Anyone else hear about that?
sniperfrog,
I never read the article you referred but it sounds quite odd to me because in his book "Guns, bullets and gunfights" Mr. Cirillo wrote an anecdote that happened to a friend of him, another police officer, that ambushed with a shotgun loaded with slugs two robbers inside a store....he wrote such anecdote to show the possibility of failures with any bullets, 12 gauge slugs comprised....the story is more or less the one that follows...
...the officer shot a first round toward the robber #1....after that he point the shotgun against the robber #2 but at the same time he was able to see at the margin of his field of view that the #1 was standing on his feet...so he hit the guy #2 and swung swiftly the shotgun barrel toward the first target's chest, thinking he missed him with the first shot....and fired again... this time the gunfight was over...
...he took a look at the bad guys on the floor and was amazed to find that the first guy had two slug's holes in his chest...he did not miss the target with his first round...
All the best
Andrea
sniperfrog,
I never read the article you referred but it sounds quite odd to me because in his book "Guns, bullets and gunfights" Mr. Cirillo wrote an anecdote that happened to a friend of him, another police officer, that ambushed with a shotgun loaded with slugs two robbers inside a store....he wrote such anecdote to show the possibility of failures with any bullets, 12 gauge slugs comprised....the story is more or less the one that follows...
...the officer shot a first round toward the robber #1....after that he point the shotgun against the robber #2 but at the same time he was able to see at the margin of his field of view that the #1 was standing on his feet...so he hit the guy #2 and swung swiftly the shotgun barrel toward the first target's chest, thinking he missed him with the first shot....and fired again... this time the gunfight was over...
...he took a look at the bad guys on the floor and was amazed to find that the first guy had two slug's holes in his chest...he did not miss the target with his first round...
All the best
Andrea
Incapacitation by GSW is never a foregone conclusion. I have cases in my files of people shot with .50 BMG who not only survived, but fought on.
Whatever weapon you're using in a gunfight, the axiom remains: don't shoot your opponent until YOU think he's dead; keep shooting him until HE thinks he's dead.
Caliber/ammo internet micturition contests are of secondary importance at best when it comes down to putting lead where blood flows. As DocGKR has so ably posted, once you've obtained or been issued a serviceable weapon and ammo, it comes down to training, skill, and mindset.
Once the offender has crossed the line justifying the use of deadly force, then as a LEO or righteous citizen exercizing his/her right to self-defense, there is no such thing as modulating or attenuating the application of your use of deadly force. The flag has gone up. It's overtime in Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals, and there will be no tomorrow if you don't do what has to be done to survive.
Shoot early and shoot often. Shoot vital anatomy, and continue shooting until you've finished the fight.
well said Dr. JSW...as usual...
All the best
Andrea
Wayne Dobbs
07-10-09, 09:55
With regard to buckshot and slug effectiveness, I recall a suggestion I heard from an old trainer years ago. He said to us cops in training to go and ask an ER/Trauma Center doc to tell about torso located pistol bullet wounds they had experience with and that those docs would likely have dozens or hundreds of anecdotes about cases they had seen. The trainer then said to ask them about buckshot, slug and centerfire rifle wounds to the torso and that their number of stories would drastically diminish due to the fact that most of those victims were DOS and therefore not transported.
That stuck with me and some very casual inquiries, along with person on scene observations have confirmed that trainer's assertions.
What about 000 buck vs. 00 buck in 2-3/4" standard load? Any advantages or disadvantages to 000? I did a search on "000" but nothing turned up.
Pretty much any buckshot from 1 to 000 works just fine--figure out what works best in your weapon, purchase enough for practice and field/duty use, get extensive shotgun training from a good instructor, then stop worrying about specific loads, as it just doesn't matter that much.
Glock17JHP
07-12-09, 23:01
What about 000 buck vs. 00 buck in 2-3/4" standard load? Any advantages or disadvantages to 000? I did a search on "000" but nothing turned up.
000 Buck will penetrate deeper, since the pellets are heavier than 00 Buck.
I have switched over to 'Low Recoil' 00 Buck... lower recoil, tighter patterns... and still adequate penetration...
I sold all my Winchester Supreme XX 00 Buck 12-pellet ammo to my friends... they are always happy to get my 'old stuff', and it helps me finance switching to a new load...
In personal conversation with Jim Cirillo he thought full power slugs worked better than buckshot, but overall he wasn't greatly impressed with the "stopping power" of anything handheld.
Jim related that they generally had to attend the autopsy the day after they were in a shooting, so he got to see what structures were actually hit by the bullets they fired.
He was big on mindset and marksmanship. You have to hit the bad guy before your choice of ammunition comes in to play.
Glock17JHP
07-13-09, 13:20
Agree with the previous post as far as mindset and marksmanship...
But I like to be 100% sure the firearm and specific load will perform properly before the focus goes from firearm and ammunition to mindset and marksmanship...
jamesavery22
10-06-09, 21:59
My cheapo testing with the RA1200 and RA1200HD
Saiga-12 19" barrel:
http://i33.tinypic.com/2lmqddk.jpg
http://i36.tinypic.com/281vak5.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/1zfrd6b.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/v75qh0.jpg
http://i38.tinypic.com/maec2h.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/ax1jj7.jpg
http://i38.tinypic.com/ta4m85.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/2en3t4h.jpg
iceman0085
10-08-09, 17:14
That's an very intersting thread. Thx for the great infos.
Georgie Boy
10-09-09, 02:07
Just a random question to throw in the mix... anyone ever done hard target penetration tests with any of the various types of hevi shot? and I know it's a bit late in the discussion, but about the only people I've heard complain about patterning shells with flight control wads were shooting them through a ported choke.
Glock17JHP
10-19-09, 13:39
Cool... the thread still lives!!!:D
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