View Full Version : Convince me to get one, or talk me out of it
I'm considering a Sig P226 chambered in .357 Sig...What are your opinions?
gtmtnbiker98
04-28-09, 07:27
Solid choice and a good round, but I would also get a .40 S&W barrel for cheaper shooting (if there is such a thing, anymore).
I recommend that you go with the P229. The P229 has a longer and better service track record with large agencies such as ICE, DHS, DOI, USCG, USSS, and many smaller departments. Sig Sauer designed the P229 from the ground up to handle the recoil forces of the .40S&W which included a more robust frame, internals, and a milled slided that is 5 ounces heavier than the P228 9mm.
A lot of manufactuers simply retrofit their existing 9mm pistols to shoot .40S&W/.357sig with less milling of the slide and a stiffer recoil spring. The primary reasons for this is to reduce manufacturing costs, and to share a common holster with the 9mm version. Examples are the Glock 22 which has a slide that is only 1 ounce heavier than the 9mm version, and the P226 .40/.357 which has a slide mass of only 2 ounces heavier than the 9mm version. Durability and reliability are reduced when this occurs. A number of agencies have had problems with the G22 after breakin because its slide velocity is too high resulting in the magazine not being able to keep up. The G22 also has roughly half the service life of the 9mm version. The P226 has also had similar problems. DOI, USSS, and the FBI outright rejected contracts for the P226 .40/.357 after extensive testing showed that they were not up to those agency's standards. DHS also rejected contracts for the P226 .40/.357 in favor of the stronger P229. When Sig designed the P229 they knew they would get flack for not making it have the same dimensions as the P228, but Sig engineers knew that making the external dimensions larger to thicken the slide rails and chamber area was important. DHS and USSS have reported that many of their P229s have gone in excess of 100k rounds which is quite a feat for any .40/.357 pistol.
When it comes to caliber, I would recommend that you make the .40S&W your primary carry caliber, and get a .357sig barrel to shoot .357sig on occasion. There are dozens of articles and recommendations of professionals that concretely demonstrate why the .40S&W is a better caliber. Essentially, it makes a larger hole and will penetrate a wider variety of commonly encountered barriers better than the .357sig which only really thrives on shooting through steel.
When it comes to caliber, I would recommend that you make the .40S&W your primary carry caliber, and get a .357sig barrel to shoot .357sig on occasion. There are dozens of articles and recommendations of professionals that concretely demonstrate why the .40S&W is a better caliber. Essentially, it makes a larger hole and will penetrate a wider variety of commonly encountered barriers better than the .357sig which only really thrives on shooting through steel.
The same compelling argument can be made in the 40 vs 45 arena and the smaller caliber VS larger caliber arena.
I love my 45s but I also understand carrying a 9mm or 40 that shot placement is what will save my arse.
Just being argumentitive :)
Archetype follow Marcus's advice. its spot on.
Rob
The 40/357 P226 is as different from the older stamped-slide 9mm P226 as the P229 is from the P228.
In 9mm, the P228/P229 share the same frame and all the same frame internals. Most of those, in turn, are shared with the 40/357 P229 and the P226 (all calibers).
DHS's contract does include the P226 as an option, though very few were purchased. In fact, the P226-40-DAK did slightly better during the DHS/ICE test than the P229, but the P229 was chosen as standard issue due to its more appropriate size for plainclothes LEOs.
While the difference is small, in my experience we received fewer P226 complaints than P229 complaints. One 2,000+ agency in particular offered both as options for its LEOs and they reported far more problems with the P229-40 than the P226-40.
Having said all that, I often chose to carry a P229R when I worked at SIG. In 40/357 I found that I could shoot the shorter gun faster than a full size aluminum frame P226R and almost as fast as I could shoot the much heavier steel framed P226ST.
faithmyeyes
04-28-09, 09:13
I'm of a practical-pistol mindset and of limited means. I wouldn't choose a .357 SIG just because of the cost of shooting it and lack of commonality with anything else I or my close friends have. But if ammo cost/supply is not an issue for you, or if you find that you shoot no other pistol as well... then go for it.
fme
The same compelling argument can be made in the 40 vs 45 arena and the smaller caliber VS larger caliber arena.
Rob
Yes, but then you get into other factors such as magazine capacity, grip size, trigger pull length,.....etc. Those handling characteristics are big influences in your defensive/duty pistol. In the case of the P229 there are none of those variations between the .40/.357 and the differences between the two boil down to terminal effects. When it comes to proven terminal effects, the .40S&W has a measurable edge.
If he wants a P220 .45acp, I would also steer him clear of that one since the P220 is a 9mm pistol milled out to accept the .45acp chambering. The same agencies that rejected the P226 .40/.357 also rejected the P220 .45acp for durability and reliability issues......with the exception of DOI. The slide mass of the P220 .45acp is actually lighter than the P226 9mm. It's ok if you don't plan to ever take your pistol beyond 20k rounds, but the agencies I discussed expect a service life of at least 10 years which is an average round count of 50-100k rounds depending on the agency's training schedule.
In 2002 I was training some Feds to use the 229 chambered for 357Sig. We had some major problems and in the end it was decided the agents at the end of training would turn in their training Sig for a brand new one to deploy with. During training the average student was shooting around 8,000 to 10,000 rounds in 8 days. It was alot of shooting and I saw alot of sore, taped and wrapped hands at the end of each course. Eventually the course was reduced to a fraction of the shooting(about 1,000 rounds per student) and the problems stopped.
Regardless of the decision to go with the 226 or 229 in .375SIG (both are great), make sure you give yourself optionality by also buying the .40 barrel.
Id say just get a .40 cal, but if you are dead set on the .357 get a 40 barrel
.357SIG is PRICEY
I'm considering a Sig P226 chambered in .357 Sig...What are your opinions?
I have no use for a 357SIG. I'd buy a 228, 229, or 226 in 9mm, and fill them with a premium defensive load that approximates the performance of the former. See DocGKRs posts on the subject elsewhere in the forum.
Yes, but then you get into other factors such as magazine capacity, grip size, trigger pull length,.....etc. Those handling characteristics are big influences in your defensive/duty pistol. In the case of the P229 there are none of those variations between the .40/.357 and the differences between the two boil down to terminal effects. When it comes to proven terminal effects, the .40S&W has a measurable edge.
If he wants a P220 .45acp, I would also steer him clear of that one since the P220 is a 9mm pistol milled out to accept the .45acp chambering. The same agencies that rejected the P226 .40/.357 also rejected the P220 .45acp for durability and reliability issues......with the exception of DOI. The slide mass of the P220 .45acp is actually lighter than the P226 9mm. It's ok if you don't plan to ever take your pistol beyond 20k rounds, but the agencies I discussed expect a service life of at least 10 years which is an average round count of 50-100k rounds depending on the agency's training schedule.
I never liked the p220 due to the very reasons you stated plus I hate the trigger. I hate most every sig trigger though..
I have only found a few 45 caliber pistols I do like, M&P, HK45 and variouse 1911's im sure im missing one or two though.
I think something else the OP needs to tell us is what his intended use is, it would make it easier to help him. If hes got a carry gun, patrol gun, tac gun,compition/race gun and a nightstand gun, why not a 357 for variety.
Ill tell you im a big 45 caliber beiliver and its my round of choice, regardless of magazine capacity. Thats another argument for another thread though.
Im sure we all agree that shot placement is a big factor in caliber deciding though. I would much rather have someone who is an expert shot with a 9mm then someone who cant hit the broad side of a barn at 2 feet with a 120mm cannon.
Hearing what Mr Todd G said I dont think you could go wrong either way. That was information I did not know.
For the small price difference get both barrels.
Rob
What I've gathered from here, and corrrect me if I'm wrong, is that the 229 was designed from the ground up for .357 Sig and .40 S&W, and that the 226 was not. So the 229 is the better choice? My intent for this pistol would be a range toy and defensive carry/nightstand gun.
I want to buy it from the factory in .357 Sig, but the .40 Barrel doesn't seem like a bad idea, especially for playing up at the range. My reasoning for .357 Sig over other calibers is my experience with the 7.62x25mm Tokerav cartridge. I've fired thousands of roundsthrough my CZ-52 and am very impressed by that cartridge. Because of the lack of modern handguns in 7.62x25mm, the .357 seems to be the next best thing.
What I've gathered from here, and corrrect me if I'm wrong, is that the 229 was designed from the ground up for .357 Sig and .40 S&W, and that the 226 was not.
When SIG redesigned the slide of the P228 for 40/357, they changed the model number to P229.
When SIG redesigned the slide of the P226 for 40/357, they did not change the model number.
The development process was the same for both regardless of how it was marketed.
So the service life/durability of the 226 and 229 would be basically identical?
G34Shooter
04-29-09, 10:04
The 40/357 P226 is as different from the older stamped-slide 9mm P226 as the P229 is from the P228.
In 9mm, the P228/P229 share the same frame and all the same frame internals. Most of those, in turn, are shared with the 40/357 P229 and the P226 (all calibers).
DHS's contract does include the P226 as an option, though very few were purchased. In fact, the P226-40-DAK did slightly better during the DHS/ICE test than the P229, but the P229 was chosen as standard issue due to its more appropriate size for plainclothes LEOs.
While the difference is small, in my experience we received fewer P226 complaints than P229 complaints. One 2,000+ agency in particular offered both as options for its LEOs and they reported far more problems with the P229-40 than the P226-40.
Having said all that, I often chose to carry a P229R when I worked at SIG. In 40/357 I found that I could shoot the shorter gun faster than a full size aluminum frame P226R and almost as fast as I could shoot the much heavier steel framed P226ST.
Was this a West Coast Bay Area agency???
sigmundsauer
04-29-09, 10:07
I like the P226, but one practical reason to stick with the P229 is that it carries the same payload of .40/.357 SIG in the magazine as the larger P226 (12 rounds), plus easier to conceal.
Tim
So the service life/durability of the 226 and 229 would be basically identical?
From a design & materiel standpoint, yes.
Was this a West Coast Bay Area agency???
No.
G34Shooter
04-29-09, 12:11
No.
Oh ok, same size department had plenty of teething problems when they switched over to Sig in 04-05.
I carried a 226 for 11 years as a duty/off duty weapon. The one I had was one of the early one when they first came into the country. As far as relibility, I never had a problem with it. I never had a stove pipe, FTF, FTE or anyother problem. Then in a moment of insanity a guy who followed me arround at a gunshow offered me a large proffit and I sold it to him through a FFL. I have regreted selling it ever since.
I would and will own another. If you can buy one w/another caliber bbl, jump on it. It is a matter of preferance and what works best for you or your friend.
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